Reading Moses: Miracle Worker or Wizard? (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000266), I saw some quotes about Dark Magic, White Magic and if they come from God or Satan.

I was just curious if you believe in these things and where you think it has its origin.

I believe in demons, angels, God, Satan and extraordinairy abilities (exceptional healing, drive out demons etc), whether it's called magic or not.

To start the conversation, I got 1 question for Mathetais:
According to my interpretation of the Bible, people are either disciples of Christ or anti-christ. Completely agreed with.

And then:
I know "good" Wiccans who use their craft to benefit those around them. They, however, deny the diety and resurrection of Christ. So even if they are healing and driving out demons, they still get their power from Satan.
And also:
So even "white magic" would be drawn from satanic orgins.
Now read Mat 12:22-30
Satan would never drive out demons.

I know Satan grands people with the ability to do White Magic, but does that also include Driving out demons?
Or:
Would God give these people the ability to drive out demons, even if they don't believe in Him?

Couldn't have said it better myself ;) :good:

Would Satan drive out demons?

What happens when authentic Christianity encounters sorcery?

Here is a key passage from Acts 19.

Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. (Mat's Note: A drachma was a silver coin worth about a day's wages) In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power I do think that white magic (read: Pagan) can drive out demons. Remember, there is no unity in Lucifer's kingdom. You see evil devouring itself time and again through history. There are power struggles going on.

Also, what a great way to lure people deeper into his realm. The witch's demon says to his friend, "Take a dive when my witch casts her spell. It won't hurt you, but it will increase my power over her."


WOW ... I realize that I kinda sound like a nut-job with all this, but I really believe it is true.

Remember, as CS Lewis said, Satan has two effective strategies. First, he gets people to ignore him, so he can run freely. If that doesn't work, he gets people to dwell upon him and give him power through their fearful obsession.

The viper's fangs have been removed. Don't worry about him, his days are short.

There might be some things that we are unable to explain but there seems to be some people still in the world that are sure they live in a world with more magic than Faerun. It makes me despair over the development of humanity.

If there was such a thing as magic I would think that it would be alot more used, no matter if it comes from some goateewearing runt down below or some bearded togawearing dude up in the clouds. Which is such a bizarre concept that it frightens me alot that people actually take it seriously.

About the white magic from God thing...there's a few verses in Galatians chapter 5 that might give some insight: Gal.5:19-21

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Sorcery is specifically mentioned here as being a sin. So regardless of whether it is used for a "good" reason or not, we can see it is certainly not from God.

Sorcery is specifically mentioned here as being a sin. So regardless of whether it is used for a "good" reason or not, we can see it is certainly not from God. If Sorcery is from Satan..
Then who´s "servants" are you driving out??

Perhaps it's just me, but Satan being connected to white magic and God being connected to black, seems a bit upsidedown :grin:

Hah, to save both the space and readers' patience and actually have anyone read through what I write, I'll spare you quotes. I honestly don't really feel like seeking them out and typing them in.

So, the New Testament expressly says that Satan never does good. Thus whatever he does that appears good is not good itself either through nature or through aims. As the Prince of Daemons, he has power over the lesser ones - that's what can be derived from Bible's words. What's more he's not really straightforward and as a fallen angel is beyond mortal understanding. This way one won't see through his work without God's help - which leads to the conclusion that judgement based on senses isn't realiable. Satan might well try to present him as better than 'harsh', 'rigid' and 'cruel' God - in fact there are some records of this.

As for possibly receiving magic from God - depends what you consider magic. In various passages throughout the Bible and various periods of history the understanding of this word changes. God doesn't supply spells like d&d make-believe deities do. But He has empowered people like Patriarchs, Apostles, Saints - some through granting what they were praying for, some more closely to having some power reside within them. Still that power isn't exactly used at will since it's the power of God. Close to this are for example annointments (Kings, priests) and blessings - giving power or placing one under the influence thereof.

Supplying one's power from Satan works in a similar way, daemons understood as Satan's underlinks and foreign deities if existent understood as daemons. What we regard as Black Magic fits here, but troubles arise when White Magic is concerned. Several verses refer to drawing power from Earth or Earth's spirit, but depending on the context this may mean de facto serving Satan or worshipping the elements. There aren't however any records of some sources of White Magic other than daemons.

Apart from drawing actual power from daemons, magic as viewed by Christianity includes believing in supernatural forces, even superior to God (or binding God), that may be forced to act according to a mortal's will by a few incantations. Most strictly here belong superstitions and 'commercial' or rather trade-off approach towards God, which is alas so common among believers (relying solely on the material aspect of prayer supposed to automatically make God grant the wish).

Fairy-tale or Harry Potter-like approach to magic relies on different concepts - magic as a set of physical laws, accesible to all or people specifically talented or trained. This doesn't fit the Biblical cathegories of witchcraft or sorcery (as this world has no physical force of the sort).

I never saw the difference between "white" and "black" magic... all the same in the eye of the beholder

I was under the impression that "black" magic was intended to harm and "white" magic was intended to help.

A lot of this sort of terminology is based on your particular belief system -- I have a very good friend who is Wiccan, and she believes in Grey Magic, IIRC, in that the Grey actually combats evil, while White is just as good, but ignores evil.

I believe in the power of God, which to me is not magic, and while I believe that Satan has some power on this Earth, I don't believe that it is magic in the sense that some people use.

I liked your C.S. Lewis quote, Mathetais! The man was a genius.

I was under the impression that "black" magic was intended to harm and "white" magic was intended to help. Oh?

And what if you harm a person, like kill him. Will there no "good" come of this?

And what if you heal that person, don´t you hurt his environment with your actions?

In Job 1,2 and Zech 3:1,2 it talks about Satan who use to be the Angel who tested human loyalty, who soon fallen to become a tempter and false accuser. And the Greek word for devil is diabolos which means slanderer/deciever, which means he can "drive" out demons as a test of loyalty to their God, or to decive the people.

Drive out demons?

Before you proceed with demons, there are some questions I want you to answer me.
1. How many demons you've seen so far or how many people possessed by demons?
2. How can you tell who is possessed and who is just mentally ill?

Sorry for interruption in your topic, but I can't see any links between ability to "drive out demons" and good/evil.

Extremist, your post reminds me of the preacher in Little Nicky :)

I was under the impression that "black" magic was intended to harm and "white" magic was intended to help. Heh, correct, but it's not the performer's intention that really drive the act.

@Depaara: As I have already said, this depends on what you see as magic, provided that you deprive the word of its basic negative conotation.

In Job 1,2 and Zech 3:1,2 it talks about Satan who use to be the Angel who tested human loyalty, who soon fallen to become a tempter and false accuser Ermm, isn´t he still a angel who tests human loyalty then?

Well theoretically he is, but he is a parody of God, by creating his own kingdom Mark 3:22, however the Bible disallows equal existence to power outside of God. So really he is "good" but is the personification of evil.

Maybe you thinking of him having his own kingdom away from "God´s" power is a sign you failed the loyalty test, since I thought "God" was everything ant the creator of everything

[ April 19, 2003, 16:02: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Well, he's not even *really* good, he's been banished for adoring himself in God's place early on. So this way the guilt lies with him too, not only with humans. He's to be punished in the latter days. He and death will be vanished then.

Actually, there are two views on Apocolypes, one school says that the world wil be destroyed and all the people true to God are in Heavan. Another is that the world will be remade new again.

[EDIT] MoN and Mat, it says in Matt12:24 that the Pharisees called Jesus a servant of Satan, after he chased away a demon, or Beezlbub, to discredit him, so really, the devil did not banish demons. And to add, Jesus said: "If Satan drives out Satan, then he is divide against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" so Mon I think you misread that part.

[ April 19, 2003, 16:05: Message edited by: Tarsakh ]

Well, he's not even *really* good, he's been banished for adoring himself in God's place early on. So this way the guilt lies with him too, not only with humans. But didn´t God gave him his mindset? Causing him to adoring himself. So isn´t God in the end responsible?

Well, if you have read Genesis, you would notice that God would rather the people come to him willingly when he asks Adam where he is hiding. So Lucifer, turned against God, hoping to claim the throne of Heavan.

But didn´t God gave him his mindset? Causing him to adoring himself. So isn´t God in the end responsible? Yes, god is responsible, assuming that god is almighty and knows everything. In this case, nothing that happens, happens without the approval of god or is at least tolerated by him. Lucifer is the work of god and is doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

And to add, Jesus said: "If Satan drives out Satan, then he is divide against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" so Mon I think you misread that part.Satan's kingdom is not meant to stand. But yes, Satan doesn't really drive out daemons. He's just their superior they listen to.

But didn´t God gave him his mindset? Causing him to adoring himself. So isn´t God in the end responsible? Lucifer received free will and his free will enabled him to choose. Pretty much like with humans. God is not responsible for not constantly using His power to prevent us from paying for the mess we make ourselves.

Like what I said before, he does not want to pull us to him, but guide us.

Which is because He doesn't want minions and underlinks like Satan does, but rather followers by choice.

Lucifer received free will and his free will enabled him to choose. Pretty much like with humans. God is not responsible for not constantly using His power to prevent us from paying for the mess we make ourselves. Yes He is, God knew the risk when he gave Lucifer "free will". And God knew the risk when he gave us "free will"....

Lucifer received free will and his free will enabled him to choose. Pretty much like with humans. God is not responsible for not constantly using His power to prevent us from paying for the mess we make ourselves. I just realized that I am a presbyterian. dam it. When god knows everything, how could he not have known, how lucifer would chose ? He must have known. God is responsible. That's the way god wanted it to be.

Yes He is, God knew the risk when he gave Lucifer "free will". And God knew the risk when he gave us "free will".... It's Lucifer who's guilty of his own deeds. Technically on this bases you could state that whatever you have done is God's fault.

@Yago: Of course God is omniscent and knows everything beforehand - which doesn't render Him responsible for the evil acts we commit. Technically nothing happens against God's will since He has control over everything, but what happens doesn't often have much in common with what God would like to happen. Well, whatever we say we should also remember God knows everything we don't know and that's pretty much, in fact our knowledge is practically nonexistant as compared to everything that could be known, not to even mention things by nature beyond mortal understanding. This way we're limited in judging what's better or worse or could have been such. We can't see all reasons and implications...

It's Lucifer who's guilty of his own deeds. Technically on this bases you could state that whatever you have done is God's fault. So you can give a 8 year old a molotov cocktail and a lucifer, with the knowledge that the chance he burns the house down is 100%, but still deny responsibility when he burns the house down.... :hmm:

Is God then like a big Bart Simpson up in the sky??
"I didn´t do it"

[ April 19, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

I'm Catholic but I'm still not decided whether Satan exists. I thought only humans had free will but from the posts above Lucifer had free will. Even if Lucifer did, how did man learn about the story of his fall? Did God reveal this to some Israelite or whatnot in a dream or something? Please don't just quote the Bible. Otherwise we will fall back into the "it's a matter of faith" trap.

Whoa! Quite some replies allready! And I haven't read them all before I started this reply.

MoN and Mat, it says in Matt12:24 that the Pharisees called Jesus a servant of Satan, after he chased away a demon, or Beezlbub, to discredit him, so really, the devil did not banish demons. And to add, Jesus said: "If Satan drives out Satan, then he is divide against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" so Mon I think you misread that part. Well, actually, I had questions (the 2 on the bottom of my post)on Mats comment about driving out demons: "So even if they are healing and driving out demons, they still got their power from Satan."
I do believe that people get power from Satan to heal. But I don't believe that Satan would drive out his own minnions. And as Mat said: The demon wasn't, but the man who tried to drive the demon out was attacked in stead by the man who was possessed with one.
So I have questions on Mat's comment about "and driving out demons". Does that happen? Would that happen? I believe not, but when Mat knows for sure that it happens, then I got some troubles... :confused:

Sorry for being not too clear on that! :o

/me is reading the other replies now.

I see this thread has gotten a bit off topic. Shall we discuss here (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=000278) who is responsible for evil and leave this thread for what it was (White and Dark Magic)? ;)

[ April 19, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: Master of Nuhn ]

All religions are frauds.

Oh, ouch, Earl.

Anyways, religions are always tough to deal with. The Bible says smite Amalak, then turns around and says don't throw stones. It specifically contradicts itself every other chapter.

The good thing about this is people can choose what they want to listen to, at any time. It's like our constitution; it's open to interpretation.

Then there's other religions that have a hardcore, all-encompassing set of rules. For everything. With the disclaimer "If it's not in here, and done exactly this way, then it's wrong. If you are wrong, the punishment is death." Not really open to interpretation, and you get people that are fairly stagnant. Not completely stagnant. But living in the 1970's, when the year is 2003.

There are good and bad sides to it all. It's never good vs. evil, right and wrong, black and white.

The world is grey. You can reject the grey, you can fight against it, you can refuse to acknowledge that it's grey. Doesn't change it's color, it just changes your interpretation.

Which is kind of good, in it's own way. Over the course of 1000 years, the black and white have tended to average out to grey. :)

And that is exactly what is wrong with this world. We should be either black or white, not grey. Cold or warm, not lukewarm. Being halfhearted is the problem with modern world.

God and Satan can't be mixed, so grey is not an option. :good:

Or maybe that was faith (for or against God, white or black). The world could be grey, indeed.

At some point you always have to decide...

Well, we aren't 8 year olds - with what God has given us we are able to tell good from evil, think before doing and take the responsibility for our actions. So the paralel isn't fitting. What's more we don't and can't know the alternative. Another thing is that instead of being free human beings prone to err we could have been made already perfectly selfless, good, holy etc from the beginning - not even knowing what we are really doing.

Well but God is so more wiser than us that we look like 8 year olds, right?
And still he made us "**** up" even though He knew we would, how irresponsible is that!?!?

And then the price, heaven?
For a game he lured us into himself? We are then nothing but playthings, and we can only achieve a place, only He told us about, when we please Him...

Does that even exist? How can you trust an entity so irresponsible??

By not seeing him as omniscient and omnipotent?
Since Genesis tells us he created us in his own image, it does not say a physical form, maybe the same mindset, with desires and emotions, and the ability to make mistakes...

[ April 20, 2003, 16:06: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

As the image we're indeed bound to have some mindset similarities... so in turn God must resemble us somehow if we might say so... Comparing us to him, as with the 8 year old example is pointless - we're so low in all aspects... anyway, God is not the one that suggests our evil deeds, but we're left to do as we will (with Him intervening from time to time anyway) - as our responsibility. As in Dune, where 'God created Arrakis to test His faithful'. It's just in the light of faith Earth and this life aren't the central point of our existence.

[ April 20, 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Why would God test us? He already knows what is going to happen right?

Oh?

And what if you harm a person, like kill him. Will there no "good" come of this?

And what if you heal that person, don´t you hurt his environment with your actions? Sorry for the late response, but I felt like I had to make a response.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second part. If using magic to harm someone, a Wiccan or whoever would probably classify that as "black". For the most part, killing someone is harming him or her.

For the second part, it may or may not hurt one's environment via helping him with "white" magic. But besides that, I think that "white" magic is intended to help. Meaning that if it screws up something, it's still "white". 'Cause that was, you know, a blooper. Your heart was in the right place. The intention was meant to help.

Just so you know, I have no idea or stance on this entire "black/white" magic thingie. I'm just vomiting what I understand of it.

Ah yes, but "good" things can come from killing a person.

Never heard of the saying, One man´s dead is another´s bread?

Well I would define white magic as the healing or excorsim of a person in the name of God.

Actually, I haven't heard the phrase. I have heard the bit about poison and meat, though.

Anyways, let's suppose that "white" magic's source is undefined. Whether it comes from a deity, the forces of nature, or whatever, in this case, is not very revelant.

So what you are saying is that if I were to cast a curse (black magic, duh) to kill a very bad person, it would be a "good" thing, and therefore it can be defined as either "black" or "white". I imagine it would still be "black", because I am directly harming someone (but perhaps indirectly helping others), I am using "black" magic.

A Wiccan would kick me in the hiney.

So you are saying that the people he would otherwise have killed would not be alive?

If that magic-user didn´t kill that bad person, wouldn´t he be somewhat responsible for the people the bad-person will kill then?

And what of the animals which will feed on the corpse?
Will they not prosper? In favor of the food-chain?

It may totally sound like indirect effects, but if a magic-user doesn´t really care about any indirect effects it will bring, he shouldn´t even be "given" those powers.

In the end, it´s not the type of spell which gives it a "black" or "white" color, but the purpose it´s used for.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second line, Morgoth. I have no idea why a person is responsible for the murders another person has committed (or whatever bad deeds have been done).

If a person kills someone to feed his dog, then that's still magic that harms someone. Because if someone is "given" this power, I doubt the ends would justify the means.

I think you are trying to say that "black" magic can be used for good purposes, and that "white" magic can be used for evil purposes. While that's not usually the way it's associated with, it can be that way. Does that make the magic's label change? Hypothetically, Ii I use "black" magic for a good purpose, does it change the fact that I'm using it to harm someone?

I'm not sure what you mean in the second line, Morgoth. I have no idea why a person is responsible for the murders another person has committed (or whatever bad deeds have been done). For the second line it all comes down to this:

Do you feel moraly responsible if you are the only person who can kill one man to save 10?

You are responsible for the death of 10 when you don´t kill that 1 man. And responsible for the death of 1 when you kill him and save 10.

I think you are trying to say that "black" magic can be used for good purposes, and that "white" magic can be used for evil purposes. While that's not usually the way it's associated with, it can be that way. Does that make the magic's label change? Hypothetically, Ii I use "black" magic for a good purpose, does it change the fact that I'm using it to harm someone? No I didn´t say that, I said the purpose defines the color, not that the color defines the purpose..

If a person kills someone to feed his dog, then that's still magic that harms someone. Because if someone is "given" this power, I doubt the ends would justify the means. Wouldn´t it be easier for that man to go to the shop for some dogbiscuits? If that man could cast "curse" I think he could also "summon money" or "summon dogbiscuits" ;) , and the effect, he will be arrested for murder and feeding his dog with the corpse!

If a man with such low wisdom goes out to kill people for feeding it´s dog and then gets arrested, he shouldn´t even be given those powers, right?

Drifting to the topic of murder - I'd say that I wouldn't be able to make a choice if I were the only person able to prevent the murder of ten. But that's quite off-topic, I think.

Purpose and type. Well, it's going to be very moot, but color is going to be quite irrevelant here. If a rogue Wiccan or whoever says she believes that "black" magic is magic that helps, and that "white" magic is magic that hurts, then she's out of line with the traditional Wiccan way of thought (and she probably wouldn't be practicing "white" magic, in her own terms).

I never really intended to identify color as much of a good/bad thing than a label. I only thought it needed clarification.

So you are saying that I cast X spell, and it hurts. Therefore it can be considered "black". If I cast X spell again, and it helps, this time it can be considered "white". If I cast X spell a third time, and this time it hurts and helps, then it's in a grey area.

But if a higher power is granting us this sort of power, then he/she/He/She/it/It probably wouldn't let us fool around like that. So the higher power would only let a magic-user cast, oh, say, X spell to help. So it's white magic. Or maybe he only lets me cast white magic, so I can only use X spell that may help. It's a moot point from there.

Going on with the dog, well, maybe the person owns a very vicious hound will only eat recently deceased human flesh. And the person is strongly attached to the dog. It's a very hypothetical situation, alright? ;)

But if a higher power is granting us this sort of power, then he/she/He/She/it/It probably wouldn't let us fool around like that. So the higher power would only let a magic-user cast, oh, say, X spell to help. So it's white magic. Or maybe he only lets me cast white magic, so I can only use X spell that may help. It's a moot point from there. So an wiccan has the spell superheal, and there is a huge terifying wounded demon from hell eating and slaughtering the villagers. And the wiccan walks up to the wounded demon and heals him, yup thats an example of white magic..

If a person kills someone to feed his dog, then that's still magic that harms someone. Ah yes, but he will also helping his dog ;)

Yup, that's an example of white magic.

No one ever said it had to be associated with a good thing. Besides, you are showing it compassion, traits of "goodness" (even if it is a demon).

The harming of the human is what the spell has accomplished. The spell has not directly accomplished feeding a dog. The death of the humna has accomplished feeding a dog.

No one ever said it had to be associated with a good thing. Besides, you are showing it compassion, traits of "goodness" (even if it is a demon). So now you can still use "white" magic for "evil" things?

The harming of the human is what the spell has accomplished. The spell has not directly accomplished feeding a dog. The death of the humna has accomplished feeding a dog. Ah yes, but you should also take the indirect effects into consideration, and for this time, the indirect effects led to the action..

That is what I am saying - a magic-user might be able to do some sort of "white" magic to further evil. "White" needn't be directly associated with evil. As with the example of the rogue Wiccan, "white" and "black" are only labels, stickies that have been put on a spell.

I'm not sure if the effects had led to the action in my example. The action led to effects, which in turn led to other effects, which in turn probably led to other effects, and so on.

It's true that white magic may cause harm in the long run and black magic's bounty might look good, but essentially in the light of Christian faith both are from unholy sources. Another thing is when black magic is used for good or white magic for evil. Shall we say supporting spells cast on malefactors or necromancy used to save a town by mustering the whole cemetery to its defence. Heh, this way it's obvious that neither means nor aims should serve as exclusive criteria.

I have never heard of a situation where a spell "jammed" because it was not being used for it's intended purposes. The fact is that a witch would stick to white or black but only because of her training. Most mages would fill a gray zone where they could cast both types of spells depending on what they knew, actually some mages have theorized that all magic comes from the human soul and the gods are just shadows in our minds.

I was wondering how many people in this forum were actually magic users of one kind or another, speak up I'm not a witch hunter.

I have never heard of a magic-user in Real Life. :hmm:

Nice topic.
First of all there is something to be clarified. The word magic takes many definitions. I know that even the churches use "magic" in the form of rituals. Don't forget that the rituals the clerics perfom with the unconcious help of the crowd are a form of magic in order to call upon the favour of god.
The difference is that the church does not accept any other "magic" as evil since the god is only one and the rituals that are perfomed outside the church are enpowered by the satan. In other circles the definition of magic takes another form and it becomes more open minded with the definition of white and black used to judje the intented outcome not the way it is performed. ;)
These circles are the arcades and they are separated in black and white due to the intensions they use the "magic".
And black and white in real life is not so applicable as it should be. That's why the term grey is used IMHO :cool:

[ April 22, 2003, 09:35: Message edited by: Mithrantir ]

Don't forget that the rituals the clerics perfom with the unconcious help of the crowd are a form of magic in order to call upon the favour of god. He's right, actually all magic is powered by the human will, an example is when you focus on winning something weather it's a race or a game that's technically magic. The whole point of rituals is to focus your mind, once you are suitable learned you can dispense with the rituals completly.

The general point behind this theory is that all magic comes from you, whoever you say you worship the source is the same.

@Mithrantir: That was already explained in the previous page.

Heh, we're coming back to the beginning of this topic - and may well get stuck in a loop. All pray read previous posts carefully and don't repeat already said things, but rather refer to the current stream of discussion.

Sometimes you have to hammer the point home, in this case however I forgot what was in the last post. It generally matters who you worsip since they serve as an extra focus for your will. Sometimes it's important to have a bit of extra bang in your spells.