Okay - I am working on a conference paper on "The Prescence and Place of Linguistic Taboos" - specifically 'f___' and 's___' (as they exist in American culture).

Anyways, in reasearching and coming up with my own conclusions, I began to wonder what some of you thought about the matter. Therefore, my questions for you are this:

Why do we have cultural taboos (not just linguistic, but also behavioral, etc.)?

How are taboos broken? Is this a good thing?

Do you think that words such as 'f___' and 's___' are on their way out as taboos - i.e., are they becoming more accepted in mainstream culture?

If they are on their way out as taboo, what taboos will take their place?

and finally, the question of all questions:

Do you think that cultures need linguistic and behavioral taboos?

(if anyone is interested in reading my paper, just let me know, and I will send you a copy/link.)

We have taboos, because cultures developed in different. Each culture (or country or tribe or whatever) has it's own opinion about what is right and what is wrong and if another culture doesn't share that opinion, you'll get taboos.

Taboos are broken, because people take an interest in another society and think to themselves: "Why don't we just accept the way people do whatever they do and not bother them about it." Instead of disapproving others' ways they accept their differences and all different kinds of social studies begin to take a look why people are different and as people learn more and more about each other, the real taboos disappear.

Words like f*** and s**** are widely accepted where I come from and almost nobody looks strange at you if you use that word on the street, on tv or in a newspaper. I can't see the point of censoring those words, but accept that other people might find them offensive. As I look here to the boards and (e.g.)American people being amazed that we use the f-word on public television, I think those words are still taboos.

I don't know if other taboos will take the place of f*** and s***, I don't really notice, because as I said, people here in Holland don't really bother themselves about anybody's use of language.

In my opinion we need taboos of all kinds, because that's what sets us apart from anybody else, and that is what makes you, me and the whole damn world interesting.

[ May 01, 2003, 23:06: Message edited by: Silverblade ]

The s.. and F.. word are in my country no big deal.

But what I've found interesting is, that a lot of rock- and rap celebrities really have fun with:" European TV, f.. s ... mf ... s he he, dam, that don't get censored, that's f funny."

On the other hand, it's no big deal, therefore boring. No one gets attention if he uses it, so it's pretty useless to swear. Swearing, "yaaawwn". No one uses swearing to make a "point" or gain status.

Taboo's are funny. A languages swear words tells you much of that nations taboo's. For instance in Swedish so are almost all swear words religious in nature. This reflects the fact that Sweden was a very religous society up to 100 years ago and we have kept the swear words. However, today it is not taboo to say 'satan' or 'hell' and our swear words lack power to shock. Not many get shocked by swearing Swedes.

I'm with Joacqin.

The "offensive" things in various cultures are extremely interesting to me. Some of the stuff, I have to squint really hard and hoark a shot of bourbon (where you get some of it in your lungs and your nasal passages) to even remotely comprehend what the significance is.

And all my swear words are religious, too. When I get bent, I really get religious. I'm supposed to be Czech, but I think the milkman must've been Sweede, or something.

Anyways, basically, if you think of what would be offensive to a Puritan, that's what's going to be offensive in America. Calling someone a bum, referring to sexuality and reproductive organs, telling someone they are godless or a "heathen". For the most part, anyways. Various states have either shunned that stuff, or it's never really made it into the culture. Alaska and Hawaii are two that, quite nearly, are seperate cultures.

The culture in canada is alot like that of America... just more censored. I really dont understand why words (of all things) are classified as 'crass' or 'offensive'. In my opinion 'damn' is a more potent word than '****' because in one you're condemning someone to eternal torment, and in another you're talking about feces. F*** I can understand as being offensive because it brings an image into you head of violent sexual coition. I don't believe that 'taboos' are present anymore in mainstream culture. If it wasn't for groups like the PMRC North America would be totally uninhibited.

I think cultures need some taboos because morality is still an issue... if there were no taboos, there would be no morality and worse things would happen (no respect for life, racism, sexism) to a greater extent than they already are. I not saying that if you say 'f***' you'll go rape someone. I'm talking about other taboos like beastialty, sexual perversion, etc.

Sexual Taboos need to be broken, because their dangerous in relation to AIDS. Ejsmith's mentioning of puritan culture brought me to it. Afaik, the USA was one of the latest countries to start an anti-aids-campaign. Because it means to talk about sex in general and particularly, sex between teenagers.

(that's no America-Bashing rant, that's my answer to a question of Falstaff. And I heard that in an interview from Elton John. He said, in the 80's, the UK and the USA had both conservative goverments. The UK started very fast a anti-aids-campaign, the USA didn't.)

Taboos exist in every country and they are outcomes from the experiences and hardness from the past of every country. In nowadays with this cultural expansion and trade (internet travel abroad and generally interaction with other countries) these taboos tend to dissappear.
Of course these taboos served same greater cause but if this cause no longer exists the same thing must happen with this taboo.
As for linguistic taboos in my country the swearing is far more advanced i believe than any other country but except from s****, a**********, f**** the rest dirty vocablary is not so well accepted by the rest of the crowd which happens to be in front of such a scene. :cool:

My argument is that linguistic taboos like **** and **** are on the way out. In the last ten years, these two little words have appeared more and more on television (especially cable networks), music, literature, and film. One study I looked at said that there has been a five hundred percent increase in use of obscenities on television since 1989.

Anyways, to replace these, I believe that racial slurs (and gender-slurs) are replacing them. As we hear more and more of **** and ****, we hear less and less of racial/gender slurs.

more to come...

That's a fascinating argument, Falstaff! You're onto something. I mean, 50 years ago, a phrase like "n**ger" caould be heard in all sorts of public discourse, while even "Damn" was edited out somehow. Now, the tables are reversed. I'd like to see higher standards overall, though, as I truly believe that poor language leads to a breakdown in the coherence of thought -- see my posts regarding Churchill's wit vs. modern swearing.

Thanks, Depaara.

I have a question for you, though: What exactly is your definition of poor language?

Or perhaps better put: What constitutes bad language? Incorrect Usage? Dialect/Dialect interference? Something else?

Just curious...

In this context, "poor" language is language that is deliberately crude, derogatory or vile. That applies to single words like Damn, the F-Bomb, hell, any reference to feces, but particularily the S word, the myriad references to genitalia, both male and female, other references to coitus aside from the f-word, etc.

It also takes into account phrases that are deliberately designed to be demeaning while they may consist of words that are fine on their own. Take one that gets my goat: "She's on the Rag" Honestly, could we get any cruder? What is the necessity to use that sort of phrase? I'd use it in a book if I were trying to characterize someone as an uneducated moron, but otherwise, it should be frowned upon by society at large.

Yes, I'm a prude, and free speech, blah blah blah, but using free speech as a cover for an inability to speak in a way that is respectful of society at large (and particularily of women) is pathetic.

I just had to post here. (Brit representitive ;) )

What I have found from talking to different people and watching TV is that the Brits are actually rather rude in swearing but more open about sex and stuff.

When brits swear they are more likely say something regarding nether regions. We will swear in public but still be shocked if we hear someone else. Also in Britain the further North you go the worse it gets. In some parts of Scotland it's like watching the Blair Witch Project and every other word is the f word, yet they never blink twice about it.

I don't know how it is anywhere else but in Britain most 12 year olds are swearing but not in front of adults so they don't get told off.

What I find interesting is that saying something in one place means something completely different in another :evil:

@ Depaara
"She's on the Rag" Honestly, could we get any cruder? Yup, I sure can. How about "She's ridin' the cotton pony." :D

Sorry, that's always been one of my favorites. Though I do find most potty language as distastful as you appear to, you have to admit some iterations get very creative and downright funny.

@ Falstaff

I'd love to read a copy, if you don't mind.

Also, I'll offer my response to your original topic, and answer your questions kind of as if they were on a test.

- I think, in a way, we have cultural taboos to separate the percieved moral from the percieved immoral, even on a linguistic basis. If you say something 'taboo,' you're a bad/rude/immoral/uneducated/racy person. Pick your favorite.

- Taboos are broken as a society evolves. The more common the subject matter, and the more harmless it is percieved, the more it ceases to be taboo and becomes the standard.

- Yes, s--- and f--- are on their way out. Tip your hat to shows like NYPD Blue for turning vulgarity from 'swearing' into 'being gritty and honest.'

- Someone stated above that racial/sexist remarks are filling that void quite nicely. A long time ago, cursing was considered taboo, while the 'n-word' was the standard and not considered offensive. Taboos change with the times, I would say.

- I think it's people who need taboos, not cultures - though it can be argued that taboos would not exist without cultures. I feel that taboos are a way to supress free thinking and ideas. "You can't say that!" Why? Are you afraid I may cause someone who hears me to learn something? To explore a new idea, good or bad? IMO, taboos exist to maintain the standard definition of 'correctness' and 'morality' in a particular culture. Taboos prevent the 'forbidden' from being explored, which may ultimately lead to that which is 'forbidden' being done away with and becoming the norm. This kind of free thinking is a direct threat to those who might benefit in any way from the taboo being in place, even if all it means is they can say their way of thinking is the right.

[ May 05, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

- About poor language.
Repetitive usage of the same words is poor language. Curse words are often used in a repetitive manner. I find nothing wrong with curse words as such.

Incorrect usage can be poor language, especially when it fails in getting the message across and what you say is misunderstood.

Using the wrong words, is poor language. One thing I see regularly is people who use "of" instead of "have", which in my eyes makes the writer look like a complete moron (ex: "I would of gone.", instead of "I would have gone.").

- About taboos
You're focusing on linguistic taboos. Why do we have them? A good reason would be to maintain a high level of accuracy when speaking so we aren't misunderstood. Other reasons I can think of are to maintain cultural unity, perhaps to control the population by making some words taboo, be they religious or directly political.

You mention other taboos. Sexual taboos are many and, I believe, much more difficult to change than linguistic taboos.
I guess sexual taboos are in place to protect the core family, the male dominance, the religion etc. None of these are as important as they used to be. There is less reason to protect the taboos and so hopefully they will diminish and finally disappear.

Interesting thoughts, Death Rabbit. I don't buy the idea that verbal taboos are designed to stop people from thinking, though. I would say that in civilized life, there is a time and place for everything. Just like SP, some things are appropriate for certain forums, others are not. In mixed company, it is inappropriate to curse like a sailor. On a boat, it is probably inappropriate to say "Please pass me the line, my good fellow!" The problem comes in when people decided that they will no longer show any respect for their fellow citizens by unilaterally deciding not to observe these boundaries. there is no deep, profound wisdom in these people, they just want to be ignorant and rude.

Here's an example or two. As many know, my favorite show is OZ. Lots of swearing, nudity, violence and other anti-social behaviour. This is realistic, as OZ is a prison. I have no problem with that. If the show were aired at 7pm when my daughters (or any children) might tune in, then I would have a problem with that -- a big one. When I take my girls to see something like "Agent Cody Banks" and behind me the 12 year old girls are talking about how they f***ed their boyfriends last night, then I have a problem with that -- they can talk like that all they want in private, but I don't think it's progress for the culture or for free speech when this sort of thing is permitted everywhere.

Now, if I were a moron and took my girls to, say, "Pulp Fiction", then I'M the idiot breaking the societal boundaries, not the girls cussing up a storm behind me.

That's actually a very interesting topic. As I am not from the "language branch" (obviously), I think I gathered some new perspectives.

Now, what I gathered from posts here, is that seemingly every country has another "rating" of taboo-words. How affects this intercultural conversations? In my country the curse "gopfedammi" is so often, that it isn't even considered as a "curse". Gopfedammi = God dam me. God dam me is a normal, everyday word. I just realized, that some may find the language I use don't appropriate.

The second thing that interests me -> Some Taboos may be broken, but won't be for every broken Taboo a new one established ? A taboo in another field ? Isn't the social pressure on the Dixie Chicks, which forced them to make nude-pictures to gain some points, not establishing a new taboo ?

And thirdly, "n***er", this word may be out of use, have become a taboo, but may it not just be replaced by another, putative "harmless" word, but which is in the end still degrading ?

And at last, a behavioral taboo: Interracial marriage or interracial relations in general. I just watched an American TV-serie (Judging Amy), where obviously is something going an between the white female and black male, in a very obvious subtle (ha oxymoron) manner, but nothing "real" happens. European films and TV-series tend to be very explicit in this direction, wheras American not. Considering the multicultural possibilities, is there a taboo, not to mix ?

@ Depaara

I'm not totally sure I buy it either, that's just one way of looking at it. I agree with you totally about the public usage, and the idea of time and place however. When I typed my response, I guess what I had in mind was partially, say, the culture of Afganistan under the Taliban for example, where it was 'taboo' to laugh in public, etc. Looking back, I'm not sure why. :rolleyes: Oh well.

But still, subject matter and specific words are two different issues. 'Sh*t' has so many meanings, and fits into so many contexts that it's hard to call it taboo anymore. Hence, it's becoming the norm and is less offensive. However, 12-year old girls deliberately talking out loud about porking their boyfriends because they want attention is definately taboo because of the idea of 12-year olds porking their boyfriends, not so much their choice of words. A 12-year old saying out loud "I engaged in heated unprotected sexual congress
with my likewise underaged boyfriend because I hate my parents and am hellbent on proving I'm a grown up," is just as ridiculous and disgusting as "Yeah, Johnny and I f*cked hard last night in his car."

Basically, IMO it's the subject matter moreso than individual words, especially when it comes to the context. "Sh*t, I stubbed my toe" is acceptable, whereas "I like to eat sh*t" is not. (Icky.) Don't you agree?

@ Death Rabbit - Right on, man! Context has always been a very important consideration. Even in the roots of Western Civilazation, the Greeks and Romans often talked/wrote about kairos - the situation - and how it is the ultimate consideration whether preparing a debate for the forum, a play for the festival, or words exchanged between friends. The situation is the ultimate deciding factor: culture, audience, speaker, place, and message are all inevitably wrapped up in kairos .

@ Yago - Yes, as old taboos are broken, new ones (or sometimes older ones) take their place. In the US we are in this situation right now (see my above posts).

You call up a good deal of other great questions as well - personally, I think that as far as n***er is concerned, it is in an interesting place. Although I do not think it will ever disappear, it is quite possible that someday our current "politically correct" terms for people will become themselves taboo, and join the ranks of these and other racial slurs.

As far as interracial relationships go, I don't think that mixing is taboo - what is taboo, as far as American television is concerned, is some of the more 'racy' stuff that is seen on European television. Although we Americans have come a long way since our pre-World War I Puritanism, we still have a long way to go. Europe does not suffer as much from such Puritanism.

@ Depaara - Your definition of 'poor language sounds good to me. The word "dileberately" makes it for me - I completely agree.

Also, as I said before - context, context, context!

And you don't sound like a prude to me...

But you do to me, you big prude! Ha ahahaha :p :lol: jk

Don't give up the day job, Death Rabbit - your sense of humor should be a cultural taboo!!

:grin:

Well if Depaara is a prude, then i'm Satan after all. Words can be dangerous things. they can be used to create (ask Mathetais) or destroy.
Verbally expressing your thoughts is a gift, and should be treated that way. in other words, choose your words carefully. now i myself am known to curse aloud when i screw up or hurt myself, however i try not to use such words in regards to others or in the presence of others.
The "taboo" is not actually the words, but what they represent.

on that thought DeathRabbit, (cotton pony?) dude that's just wrong :D

@ Falstaff

Damn straight! :D

@ Greenlion420

But a classic, no? I have more where that come from. :D

Let me start by getting the PC-disclaimer out of the way: The following comments represent the observations of Rallymama and are in no way indicative of an attitude of wholesale discrimination against any group based on gender, age, race, faith, sexual orientation, or sports-team fan affiliation. If you don't like what you read, take it up with Rally personally and leave the management of Sorcerer's Place out of it.

Falstaff, have you ever spent much time around urban youth? It seems to me that city kids go even farther out of their way to attract attention than do suburban kids. It's that whole "in your face" thing, with the stupid hand gestures, big groups taking over the sidewalk or aisle and walking v e r y s l o w l y, and screaming at each other all the time. Of course they can't shout something innocuous, like "Girlfriend, love the outfit!" No, it has to be "Hey, ho, you gonna get some t'nite, lookin' so fine!" God forbid that anyone around them be allowed a little privacy or peace.

So what do us poor folks do? We politely ignore them. And since "in your face" can't let itself be ignored, they get louder and more offensive in an effort to be recognized. There's a vicious cycle going on - civil people are afraid to tell these brats to shut up and be polite, then the brats get even more obnoxious because they want to be noticed and think they have to be offensive to do so. The end result is that there's a segment of the population that doesn't seem to know how to express itself except in the most extreme of terms.

That reminds me - back in college I was engaged to someone who sincerely believed that the ONLY way to express strong emotion was by using obscenity. To him, anything else was insincere, weak, or pretentious. He generally knew when to keep this reflex in check but soemtimes slipped. However, when I said that I found it very offensive and asked him to tone it down, he told me that it was the only "real" means of self-expression and I'd just have to get used to it! Can you guess why we never got married? ;)

Good observations Rallymama. If you do say anything to these kids, they yap about freedom of speech. I'm telling you, though, the pendulum is going to swing, and there's going to be a backlash against the excessive profanity in our society, you just wait.

@ Rallymama - good observations. I have not spent a great deal of time around urban youth, but I do have this observation from a co-worker who has.

I believe that there is more to it than "not knowing how to express myself so I use obscenity" going on. I think that you are right when you mention that it is closer to: "I feel that noone listens to me, so I use obscenity to make them!" And the thing is, it works! I am not saying that it is right or wrong, just that that is the way it happens.

@ Depaara - I think you have something too, especially in light of current events, when you say that the pendulum will swing back in the other direction. Considering strong feelings against "unpatriotic" speech that are rampant now, it may be indicative of the beginning of a motion backwards. Will it happen soon? I don't think so, but it probably will happen.

- off topic - When did you get a lordship?? What are you Lord of?? How are the medical benefits?

:yot: I am the Lord of Raven's Perch, a small Duchy in the Kingdom of Pharicia on the world of Ardretha. The Medical benefits are irrelevant, as I am a Servant of the Unnamed God, and have vast healing powers at my disposal. Since you asked :D

You know (getting back on topic), breaking a taboo is not automatically a good thing to do. I believe that a society must be civilized in order to have strength, and that means that certain words are not said under certain circumstances. I mean, everyone defecates, but bringing it up during dinner does not make you smarter than the people around you, it makes you a low class loser.

Well, I never said that breaking a taboo is automatically a good thing to do - like (I think all of us) have mentioned before, it is all about the context, the situation. I am certainly not a proponent of obscenities at the Sunday dinner table.

I am not really making an argument for or against the breaking of specific cultural taboos. I am merely making commentary on the breakage phenomena and exploring explanations for it as well as discussing the future trends.

I was referring to Death Rabbit's point (which even he stated was just an idea, not one he's sure he buys) that taboos are designed to inhibit thought, and that those that break them are free thinkers escaping society's repression. While some taboos may fit this description, the linguistic ones against s**t and F**k do not.

Hmmm. I'd say that such "free thought" is more animalistic than human anyway.

Then there are the interesting things, how, for instance, black people are allowed to say n***er, and yet white people can get their ***es kicked for using it in the same context. I really, REALLY don't mean to sound racist, but I notice that there seems (to me anyway) to be a certain way to dress and act and speak that is referred to as 'black culture', and any white people who do the same are wannabe posers. Yet there doesn't seem to be any difinitive 'white culture', other than some extremist morons who believe that being white makes them better. (Not referring to our red-clad moderator, just the people who share his moniker.)

Taboos are interesting. Compare Toronto, New York, and Amsterdam.

Perhaps as time passes people get ruder? I neve heard my father swear until he was around 60 and after I got married. My parents never swore, my mother still doesn't, Dad has a rather filthy mouth.

My sister and her husband are "swear-aholics" and of course her kids are too.

I normally speak Hindi with my wife and since I learnt it from her, I don't know many swear words and if other people even use them I don't recognise them.

I have a good repertoire of English swearwords for when I am really angry...(that is so sad.)

I think that if people realise that they don't like other people using abusive language at or with others then they should not use it, nor encourage others to do so.

I would be annoyed with my children for swearing and I have punished them with chillis in the gob for it!

I think swearing is unnessecary to get your point across except in extreme anger, and it should only be used at ones's own stuff ups! (Oops! did I just swear?)

Other intersting taboos are like the way that westerners don't marry cousins. This is quite a common practice around the world. Is that something offensive to you?

That leads into what I wanted to mention. Some taboos developed as a survival trait and should not be broken. To some extent cousins, but more specifically siblings and parents/children should not mate as the possibility of birth defects increases. I think that these taboos probably exist in most countries. Does anyone know of any exceptions?

Other taboos are cultural and represent the morality views of the majority. As the majority changes so can their views and their taboos.