I've been doing a little thinking about all the France bashing lately, and I wanted to give them a little praise. Although contrary most of the time, France has given the U.S. some great things over the years:

Statue of Liberty
Louisiana (what a bargain too! Only $15 million!)
Croissants
Cajuns (and their fantastic cooking)
Le Marquis de LaFayette (Face it folks, without France, we'd still be an English colony!)
crepes
1/6 of ME!
Marcel Marceau (okay...I'm kidding about this one)


So remember, without France, and their influence...the U.S. would be a much different place. Plus, we'd have no one to poke fun at except ourselves!

You forgot the declaration of human rights 1789.

http://www.parisur.com/declaragb.htm

The representatives of the French people, made up as a national Assembly, considering that ignorance, the lapse of memory or the contempt of the humans right are the only causes of public misfortunes and the corruption of the governments, solved to expose, in a solemn declaration, the rights natural, inalienable and crowned of the man, so that this declaration, constantly presents to all the members of the social body, unceasingly points out their rights and their duties to them; so that the acts of the legislative power and those of the executive power, being able to be at every moment compared with the aim of any political institution, are respected of it; so that the complaints of the citizens, founded from now on simple and undeniable principles, always turn to the maintenance of the Constitution and the happiness of all.liberté, egalité et fraternité

Liberty, Equality and fraternity

Without France aiding the American patriots, the US would never have existed. France at that time would do anything to opose the british. Regarding the American judicatory system. Almost all of the world's laws are based on the law book written by Napoleon Bonaparte himself. Napoleon's greatest work influenced American laws also.

I wouldn't be so quick to take credit for the American Legal System...It's kind of messed up!

Don't forget that there'd be no Cinco de Mayo without the French, either! :lol: ;)

I thought that was Mexican...

erm... excuse me, but the French didn't show up until the war of independance was nearly over. The Americans kicked the British out all by themselves. They were with their backs against the Atlantic, when the French decided to show up and have a piece of the cake, so they don't deserve any credit for that.

The French have fought many wars with the British, and basically they got their asses kicked most of the time.

Without the French, we wouldn't have my favorite scene from Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail! :lol:

"I wave my privates in your aunties face"

Cinco de Mayo celebrates a victory of 4,500 ragtag Mexican troops over a force of 7,000 of Napoleon's finest. Of course, he came back a year later with 33,000 and conquered the capital, but that didn't last long, either.

Without France aiding the American patriots, the US would never have existed. France at that time would do anything to opose the british. Regarding the American judicatory system. Almost all of the world's laws are based on the law book written by Napoleon Bonaparte himself. Napoleon's greatest work influenced American laws also. Not really. Luisiana has Code Civil as its civil code and perhaps there has been some indirect influence on penal laws, but nothing more. But it's sir Belly who's an American lawyer, not I, so torment him with questions, not me :evil:

The Americans kicked the British out all by themselves. Bull****.

La Fayette (no need to introduce), von Steuben (army training), (JP) Jones (navy), Kosciuszko(engineering), Pulaski (cavalry)... none of them was American and they're only the most renowned ones. Apart from those great individuals: money, money and money - without which no war lasts for long. Plus diplomatic support - actually all major powers in Europe exercised pression on England to grant independence to the colonists (actually Paris wasn't chosen exclusively for being a neutral ground :rolleyes: ).

THE Luisiana Purchase.

It was a heck of a lot more than just piddly little Louisiana. And the French ended up hating Napolean, too. It's kind of mixed on that one.

The statue of liberty is hot. I'd hit it. Definately every night, but most likely mornings too; my mojo is strong where she's concerned. I'd definately put out with all my talents. But let it be known; she's French, but she sure as heck isn't Parisian. She's from the country.

Other than that, I definately do appreciate all the things France has done for us. And they have done a lot.

But times change. The same people that hooked us up when we really needed it have passed on, and a new generation is there. We hooked them back up in WW2. I don't know if that settles the score or not, but I generally consider it even.

It's not like we're severing all ties with France because they harshed us, or anything. We're just look at all the other countries we haven't really given a chance. It's definately something that needs to be done, and once again France has hooked us up and given us leave to be free. Although, I don't feel indebted for it, though...

And not to forget the French fleet. Without the interferrence through the French fleet, the British would have had an easy time, getting support over the atlantic. And without the threat of beeing attacked at various other places, the British army would have had a lot more troops at their proposal to crash their enemy.

Cinco de Mayo celebrates a victory of 4,500 ragtag Mexican troops over a force of 7,000 of Napoleon's finest Of course, as you know Rallymama, Napoleon the III, not to be confounded with the little man from Corsica, who was in the end beaten by an Durch-Austrian-British-Preussian-Russian alliance.

And that famous battle Waterloo, which Napoleon the I actually was winning, until ..... Prussians ???? Prussians ????? Where did they come from. They were supposed to be 2 days away !!!!!!!!

Not only two days away, they were considered to be beaten as well. And as field marshal Blücher rambled after the battle: "Had I had more light cavalry there would have little been left of the frenchman ... #@*$%! " Who's Wellington? :p

Great things France brought to germany:
They unified germany from a littered carpet or tiny realms to a nation, they brought with them the code civil. They brought french to my town Cologne, where local slang still has quite a couple of french words, and, most important, the liaision (but I don't know if we had that already ;) ). De Gaulle - he and Adenauer evenatually managed to turn the archenemies from 1805 till 1945 into friends. After reunification germany gained the cover of France's "nuclear umbrella", just in case.

Great things France brought to the world:
The ideals of the french revolution :spin: Croissants :roll: (but don't get me wrong, you still get the best in france) ;) ; Louis Pasteur (http://www.accessexcellence.org/AB/BC/Louis_Pasteur.html); Gauloise ;) ; haute couture (just mind chanel) and style generally; great movies (that one's only for europeans as the US only know the (poor) US remakes :p ) ; the french paved medieval Paris for a complete new-built one (the one from the movies) and the 2CV - a car on one ever will forget who's had the fun driving in it with 4 people, fast and in a turn :shake: and much much more ...

To expand on Ragusa's list...

Debussy, Monet, the whole left-bank scene, Victor Hugo, Honore de Balzac, Brillat-Savarin, Chateau de Rothschild wines, Jean-Pierre Rampal, the can-can, Le Cordon Bleu, Sartre, Camus, Voltaire, de Tocqueville, Auguste Escoffier, Asterix comics, Maurice Ravel...

renault and citroen and peugeot... ooops, sorry, the list was supposed to be good things. :o

nevermind

To keep Rally's list going:
Renoir, Cezane, Stendahl, Alexander Dumas, Michel de Montaigne, Marcel Proust, Rousseau, Descrates, Hector Berlioz...

[ May 06, 2003, 06:20: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

French kissing! :D Sorry, I know this is a serious topic. I couldn't help myself.

Yago,

liberté, egalité et fraternité

Liberty, Equality and fraternity I think a better translation would be: Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood. I know it doesn't rhyme but I don't think France can take credit for frat boys and their parties. ;)

What have you people got against the French. Much more good for the world than USA would or could ever do. They haven't done one bad thing for the world (that i know of) except for ww1/2, but other than thoses they aint done anything wrong.

Rousseau Sorry, but he's Swiss. But Jean Calvin was born in France. So, the main reformator is French. Protestants are a French product.

Simone de Beauvoir and Jeanne d'Arc.

At Charlie: I wasn't aware that fraternity had some hidden meaning in English. Thanks.

[ May 06, 2003, 09:35: Message edited by: Yago ]

Yago,
hmm, how about Martin Luther?

Martin Luther (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm)
Leader of the great religious revolt of the sixteenth century in Germany; born at Eisleben, 10 November, 1483; died at Eisleben, 18 February, 1546.

John Calvin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03195b.htm)
This man, undoubtedly the greatest of Protestant divines, and perhaps, after St. Augustine, the most perseveringly followed by his disciples of any Western writer on theology, was born at Noyon in Picardy, France, 10 July, 1509, and died at Geneva, 27 May, 1564.

On 31 October 1517 Luther was first when he nailed his 95 theses to a soon-te-become-famous church door, Calvin was 8 years old at that time :p

On 31 October 1517 Luther was first when he nailed his 95 theses to a soon-te-become-famous church door, Calvin was 8 years old at that time He, he, yes that is true, but Calivn was the responsible for the presbyterian/baptist branch of the protestant church. In Switzerland, we're presbyterians, not lutherans. :p

(reformiert, nicht evangelisch)

That is, if someone lives on the mountains, than he's propably catholic (like me), because rumours about protestantism haven't reached far away places.

@ Ruler of the known universe

Could you explain exactly what kind of bad thing France did in WW 1/2, other than lose their country rather quick ?

Oh sure pac man thats easy. Well maybe not WW1 oh yes WW1 as well. End of WW1 1918 treaty of versailles, the french demanded hard terms on the germany which lead to the start of WW2. With a great amount of help from USA they caused they most destructive war ever to be seen (sofar) on this planet.

But no one has yet answered my question.
What do people have against France?

They haven't done one bad thing for the world (that i know of) except for ww1/2 Not quite true, French have proven that they are ruthless when they want to defend or to promote their interests. Remember "Rainbow Warrior"?

Could you explain exactly what kind of bad thing France did in WW 1/2, other than lose their country rather quick ? They were responsible for the terms of the Versailles treaty, which led to WWW2. Also thousands French volunteers joined the Waffen SS. Of course, they were not the only ones, thousands foreigners joined the Waffen SS, but the French divisions ("Wallonien" and "Charlemagne" if I remember right)were the ones that had an excellent combat performance.

Of course, they were not the only ones, thousands foreigners joined the Waffen SS, but the French divisions ("Wallonien" and "Charlemagne" if I remember right)were the ones that had an excellent combat performance. That's what a lot of people in the occupied territories did. Not only the French, I think they were on a normal scale. Than people were concscripted too. And the impact of the French is mainly due to the fact, that it is still one of the bigger European countries. The Dutch did the same, but as there are fewer Dutch, there numbers accordingly were smaller. As far as I know, from the Western countries, I really really respect the Danish, how they handled their occupation.

Concerning the Nazis. In my opinion, they left a giantic wound all over Europe, involving every country, because in every country, even in mine and not excluding the Island on the west coast, some form of collobaration happened.

Edit:
Conscription acutally is one of the main problems -> The Germans and the French traditionally fought about the land at the frontier between them. Elsace-Lorraine and Saarland (Maybe even more). After the fall of France, Germany declared the people living there as "Germans", which forced them to joing the Army (conscription). Some of them volunteered, some of them resisted and were killed. That's the reason, why in Strassbourg, capitol of Elsace-Lorraine, now are so many EU-buildings, the people there were either victims of the French or of the Germans. War-memorials are special in this region too, in France, they're normally soldiers in French uniforms, in Elsace-Lorraine, their naked men, because in every war between Germany and France, they were split in two and were attacked by both sides. And in this region, the death toll was always the highest.

Concerning the Versailles-treaty. Not only the French are to blame. Other countries, mainly Britain, had a huge anti German following too, most prominent-> Winston Churchill.

BOC, maybe we disagree in responsibility for the Versailles-treaty, but I agree, this treaty was one of the main causes for the rise of the nazis.

[ May 06, 2003, 13:09: Message edited by: Yago ]

Yago

I'm not talking about numbers but about combat performance. The french and the scandinavian volunteers divisions are the only ones that can be considered of equal combat value with the elite german formations. What I'm trying to say is that the french volunteers fought more fiercely compared to the volunteers from others european nations.

As for the Versailles treaty, I don't think that we disagree. The British are responsible as well, but don't forget, that Germany was the archenemy of France and that the French were the ones who occupied german territory for almost 15 years after the end of WW1.

Edit:
I just saw the paragraph you added to your post. The French Waffen SS were not considered German and that's why they belonged to SS and not to Wehrmacht since Reich's legislation didn't allow foreigners to join Wehrmacht. They wore the german uniform but they had the french flag in their arm.

[ May 06, 2003, 13:06: Message edited by: BOC ]

BOC, oops, I maybe have interpreted your post a little bit wrongly. Well, than we agree. :D ;)

But no one has yet answered my question.
What do people have against France? I can't answer that. I don't dislike them more than Germans, Austrians and Italians. Or in other words, I equally dislike all our neighbouring countries. :D ;)

John Calvin
This man, undoubtedly the greatest of Protestant divines, and perhaps, after St. Augustine, the most perseveringly followed by his disciples of any Western writer on theology, was born at Noyon in Picardy, France, 10 July, 1509, and died at Geneva, 27 May, 1564 My personal hero! :good: :holy:

Sorry, Yago, I did not mean to take credit away from your homeland for a thinker and writer who could stand up to the likes of Voltaire. I remember reading his letters to V. in college and was impressed, but that has been some years. That explains why I did not do well in that class.

BOC
How could i not remember the rainbow, well actully i don't remember it, it was before my time, but every one who any one here knows of it. It happened just down the bloody road from where i live (well really an 8 hour drive). But blowing up one ship is nothing at all compared to what the people from USA have done, and most other countries for that matter.

Ruler of the known universe

Rainbow Warrior is just the top of the iceberg. In 1972 French warships rammed Greenpeace ship Vega in Mururoa and the following year another Greenpeace Ship, Fri, was boarded and its crew was retained by French commandos. Also, think the reasons for these incidents. The nuclear tests in Mururoa, which the French did without caring about their concequences for the people of the surrounding islands, prove that French are not less evil or good than USA or any other country.

:whoa: you learn a new thing every day, or so they say.
But i still think that is nothing at all compared to what the USA have done. For example in Cenral Amarica, i did a research thing on this just two months ago. Some of the stuff i found ... well i wont get into to much detail but lets say it made me write the BEST speech i have ever writen. By the end i had the whole class so shocked that they didn't say a thing once i finished (prehaps it could have been just me). IF you want any more details on this go to the new internationist web site (i think it was them).

Great things France brought to the world:
The ideals of the french revolutionThe French Revolution was in-part based on the concepts developed in the early United States.

The second part is the fact that the French Government was bankrupt and overtaxing the peasants. Some of the financial problems arose over the money invested in the American Revolution. The rather extravolent lifestyle that the aristocrats contributed as well.

I can't remember the name, but King Louie #-something called an immergancy meeting of a government body to resolve the problem. If I remember my history, the body hadn't met in well over a hundred years.

But, anyway, France did do an excellent job purging Europe of many Monarch and Tyrants.

The French Revolution was in-part based on the concepts developed in the early United States Yes, and the American revolution was influenced by the ideas of Montesquieu (as well as by taxes on tea, seems that taxes do piss people off).

For the record:
The king was Louis 16 (lost his head later), in 1789 he called for a meeting of "Les Etats Généraux" (not sure how to translate that) which last met in 1614 during the regency of Marie de Médicis.

Ruler of the Known Universe: Guatamala, San Salvador or Nicaragua ?

At Blackthorn:
[Hey don't direct that at me; I didn't say the following quote! ;) - BTA]

The French Revolution was in-part based on the concepts developed in the early United StatesThat is not so true. Well, there is something to it, but as Chandos the Red cited Rousseau and Oxymore Montesquieu, the American Revolution and the French Revolution based both mainly on ideas which were laid out in a theoretical way in books before (by more people than the two cited). There are huge similarities, which can be explained:

A: There was correspondence going on over the Atlantic.

B: The most important part: Both had the same theoretical background and theoretical agreement -> Both aimed at a "Roman Republic" and a "Greek Democracy".

C: The French Revolution had a lot more success and impact. It went a big leap farther then the American Revolution.

The Differences between the French and the American Revoulition, are the reason that there are so many differences between the USA and Europe. Two very different cultures.

Impact: France (and Prussia) shaped the whole continent of Europe (except maybe that Island)-> Schoolsystem, judicary-system (Code Napoleon and "Rechtsstaat"), the way we think about Goverment. The impact of the 3.5 million Americans of that time is nearly zero.

(I know there were backlashes in both continents, but the foundation was introduced and never ceased to exist -> Like all the Tricolores show, which make a clear link back to Frane)

There are a lot of differences, but the main difference is equality and human rights.

The French declared human rights are are valid always and forever -> The Americans used it to legitimze there revolution, and then dropped it. -> Slavery and race segragation is not possible, when Human rights exist.

Equality -> Equal protection of the laws was only introduced in the 14 Amendment of the US, the French had it from the beginning.

Universal Suffrage. The Americans introduced one man, one vote only about 1900. A lot of European countries did that earlier than the Americans. (We did 1798, the French redid it 1848, when Germany came into existence 1871, it had it from the beginning).

Again, the differences between the American and French Revolution are the reason for the main differences between the USA and Europe today. We just have a different concept, how "Democracy" should be.

[ May 07, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

French officials in Syria issued French passports to escaping Iraqis being sought by the U.S. military.That's off MSNBC. I dunno if it's true. Time will probably tell. But, man. If it's true, this seriously changes the equation. Completely.

For the past 50 years, France just hasn't really been all that important. And they're pissed that they aren't. But there is a point at where you are no longer neutral...

Ooops, sorry BTA. Youre name is just so short, that's very comfortable to write it. ;) :D But it was my mistake, sorry.

Another great thing from the French: The metric system

Used in nearly every country in the world the Metric System was devised by French scientists in the late 18th century to replace the chaotic collection of units then in use. The goal of this effort was to produce a system that did not rely on a miscellany of separate standards, and to use the decimal system rather than fractions.

Designed during the French Revolution of the 1790's, the metric system brought order out of the conflicting and confusing traditional systems of weights and measures then being used in Europe. Prior to the introduction of the metric system, it was common for units of length, land area, and weight to vary, not just from one country to another but from one region to another within the same country. As the modern nations were gradually assembled from smaller kingdoms and principalities, confusion simply multiplied. Merchants, scientists, and educated people throughout Europe realized that a uniform system was needed, but it was only in the climate of a complete political upheaval that such a radical change could actually be considered.

The metric system was first proposed in 1791. It was adopted by the French revolutionary assembly in 1795, and the first metric standards (a standard meter bar and kilogram bar) were adopted in 1799. There was considerable resistence to the system at first, and its use was not made compulsory in France until 1837. The first countries to actually require use of the metric system were Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg, in 1820.


http://www.essex1.com/people/speer/metric.html
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/metric.html

Forget freedom fries call them French Fries why? Because the French hate that word because they did not invent it and don’t get them started on French toast because when Disneyland of France opened up the French government made them Change the name to just Egg toast and fries because they like their words pure….. :p

My own two cents to the French revolution issue:

Ideals? It was very idealistically aimed to take the power from aristocracy and give it to the citizenry, possibly decreasing the King's competences. Later on, the Jacobins intended something close to general equality, after killing out the nobility and several wealthier merchants of course, but were only speaking much about freedom and sometimes not even that. The Jacobinic constitution was suspended immediately when passed and it never was the law. Then, the directoriate period's activists were heirs-of-the-line of Girondists and mostly objected on the freedom of trade and equality of business subjects. However, their political supporters only requested several rights and protection thereof and were more interested in business than the actual ruling - to which they weren't really suited, but that's another thing. Here enters Bonaparte, Cambaceres and Lebrun. The newly acquired rights of the bourgeois kept, the nobles allowed to come back safely, but not to reclaim their land, the people given some illusion of democracy - districtal lists, departamental lists, national list :rolleyes: 1804 - adieu la revolution, vive l'Empereur :rolleyes: . Even Code Civil (originally Code Napoleon) that is supposed to be the most glorious codification of what the revolution had acquired was prepared by a few experts - judges of ancien regime courts (which is a good thing, actually).

RotKU wrote:

What have you people got against the French. Much more good for the world than USA would or could ever do. They haven't done one bad thing for the world (that i know of) except for ww1/2, but other than thoses they aint done anything wrong. I answered before, I don't know it. But I have this theory, which makes defend France versus the Americans, every time they bash it. A lot of Americans have a huge contempt versus Europeans in generall. But as Europe is a mosaic of many, rather small nations, it's problematic, to put them all under one bashing-roof.

So, they picked one country out, France. France is a bigger European country, most Americans know something about it. The French language can be recognised and differentiated from other languages, whereas it would be difficult to differentiate between languages like Hungarian and Slovakian. Even more difficult to know something about the history of those countries.

They divided Europeans into "good" ones, a.k.a. Europeans who know their place and act as they should act, mostly the British. And the "bad" ones, the ones who think for themselves and dare to disagree. mostly the French. Underlying is a general contempt versus all Europeans, but Europeans who do as they should do, do not deserve bashing, mainly because they don't even deserve attention. So, in my opinion it is not the country (France = bad, UK = good), but generally Europeans, does not matter at all from which country, which dare to disagree with the history in American history books and do not do as they are told.

That's from another forum, I think this quote is a good example for generall dislike versus Europeans, mostly for practical reasons reduced to (only) "French Bashing".

If truth be told, the only reason we tolerate the French is the fact they were our first ally. They lost their power long ago and we have carried them simply for the reason that they are France. I suppose my dislike for Europe stems from an arrogance that they are the reason for everything. I even had one tell me that we stole their God forgetting (for some reason) that he was the God of Abraham before he became the God of Europe. This tells me that Europeans live in an ignorant bliss that has cost them world power - something of which they will never regain. Europeans also forget that the New World inherited their lust for slavery and that the racism we are so crucified for shares the same face with the gypsies and Jews of Europe. You guys aren't very nice to them so I don't know where you're going with this. And to mention the Spanish and not their gluttonous slaughter of the natives again reinforces the bliss theory that you so readily embrace. I also have to laugh with the mention of the Kyoto treaty considering few if any of your parliaments have ratified it. And as for Germany and France being the champions of environmental activism, well, I've been to Germany and it's filthy. Wet, cold, bloody and filthy. On a continent where it is acceptable to urinate in public little else can be said. We are not like that and never will be and that's why you hate us. We have our flaws, of course, but we're the best that's ever been. Finally, when it comes to the Euro, you can spend them all you like but remember that the dollar is the vehicle currency all others are worthless without it and that includes the Pound. Nothing will change that. Only time will tell the future but the past says that without the US, Europe is a madhouse - a land of fiefdoms whose nobility refuses to surrender power and a population of Champagne Socialists who accepts this. And of note, being someone from the British Isles, aren't you aware that mainland Europe hates you in the way you hate us? You boys had better retain your sovereignty or you will regret it. As I said before, there will never be Federal Europe nor will Europe ever live in peace without the United States. Sigh......

It amazes me that people can say anything they want about the US but act out if they receive the same. I see it all the time and I suppose that's just the way it is. I'm aware of what happened in Europe during the war and I know out of many nations, only the UK and Poland were worth the blood we spilled to win it. And all you have no qualms knocking Poland either what's the new term now the Trojan Donkey? How nice of all of you. I'm also aware of lend/lease and I must say, well...wow...if that makes you feel better, then go with it. When you give complete control you lose complete control and this truth is something Europe has just been unable to accept. Anyway, this has been loads of fun...all I can say now is thank God I was born over here. Whew.......what luck. Eden on earth, that sums up America - I think I'll go outisde now and enjoy it with my American dollars.

Replacement of the dollar by the Euro, is that what Europeans tell themselves these days? Poor souls. The US is the tack that holds the map on the wall....if it's taken out, it all falls down. Europe had their chance, they had many chances, and all they did was kill each other. There will never be a Federal Europe - ever. All of you hate each other too much. The Euro replace the dollar...my word. I'll tell you what, the debt you owe, which is quite large, could never be paid in Euros and you have no intention of paying it anyway. You guys kill me every time I come in here and I thank the good Lord I never have to endure your pain in reality. I know European history quite well but you and your leaders act as if you’ve never heard of it. All the hell Bush gets when the likes of Stalin and Hitler looks over your shoulders…now that’s funny or more accurately sad. Good thing the Americans were there to fight it out for you, huh? If we were to ever fall, the world falls with us. Got it? European history has proven time and time again that you are unable to stand on your own and this is where the resentment towards the US stems from. But don't worry...we won't allow you to louse it all up again. The power Europe now holds is solely in their mouth and that doesn’t go too far and never has. It takes true power and this is something Europe has lacked since the time of Rome. I’ll tell you what, quit depending on us to defend your small nations and maybe Washington would pay a little more attention to you...this holds true Bush or not. The Europeans thought we were made of gold after the war and never hesitated to cash the checks we sent them. It would have been nice to have received a thank you card, at least. We did give you guys a lot of money and you act like it never happened. What do your history books teach you? If the US ever truly goes on the offensive, then you have cause for alarm. We don’t occupy your continent for the hell of it. Just ask bloody Germany and even little Italy...they can tell you firsthand. You owe us your lives and the lives of your children and their children. Do you think Europe is livable today by your own devices? Now that’s very funny.
We do not forget the past because we're still paying for it and not in Euros. Europe is a beautiful continent and remains so because of American dollars and American force. And as for "pearly" harbor, it was the excuse we needed to save your tails in a war YOU started. You have had many fires in your backyard since that time and did not solve any of them...that's why we're the boss. And as I indicated, it is easy to be cocky when someone else does the fighting. Once again, this is done in American dollars. And don't forget the Cold War, I doubt Russia would have kept Europe so beautiful. And for the record, that war was not cheap and again was paid for in American dollars. And do not feel left out, you are not the only ones who needed our Calvary. The world is in a time of trouble and left to the capitals of Europe, it would remain this way. We will take care of it...just sit back and watch like you always have.



[ June 02, 2003, 11:29: Message edited by: Yago ]

Yago - It is interesting to note that it mostly comes down to two things: Money (American dollars) -- and military might (how we saved the world with it). Of course this is the conservative thinking in a nutshell. The "business of America is business." And the main function of civil govenment is to provide a "strong defense." They can know the price (dollar amount), but have no understanding of what was the value to everyone by helping to rebuild Europe.

They are simple ideas, by simple minds. There is little to be gained by clouding very simple issues with more complex ideas of social justice and representative government. Or other "socialist ideas." It is the cynical view shared by, not all, and not even a majority of Americans here. But by a very vocal and powerful party of cynical conservatives.

It reminds me of what Oscar Wilde said: "a cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

On a continent where it is acceptable to urinate in public little else can be said.

Damn! How savage are we? :D

Seriously, this guy needs medical attention.

Yago said:

So, they picked one country out, France. France is a bigger European country, most Americans know something about it. The French language can be recognised and differentiated from other languages, whereas it would be difficult to differentiate between languages like Hungarian and Slovakian. Even more difficult to know something about the history of those countries.
France was not just picked out of a bucket of governments for the United State to find offensive. They earned their condemnation through action.

When the movie Saving Private Ryan was being filmed, the French Government opposed filmmakers using actual pictures of the Beaches of Normandy or the massive graveyards that exist nearby. This was a HUGE slap in the face for Americans. We don't think France owes us a thing, but at least they should acknowledge the fact that we did help - acknowledge that fact the Britain, Canada and the United States died to save France.

The dealings of Chirac only made things worst - much worse. He statements were condencending and - from an American point of view - looked cowardly. In American culture, being called a coward is the same as being called dishonorable in others. Cowards don't have honor. Cowards don't have a right to live. It is seen as the worst of personality flaws.

These are just two examples, but the French Government has a reputation in the U.S. of being without backbone or honor.

Personally, I don't think this is the case.

As far as language goes. German is alot easier to recognize that French. Besides, Canada has huge number French speakers and we love Canada - despite what you saw in the South Park Movie :)

... and the war of 1812 :)

Didn't the US act out of fear as well?

I agree that France was not picked out of the blue. Europe is an economical powerhouse yet has little political influence, Europe has lived in the shadow of America for decades, and now sees itself as a superpower, that includes finding a political will of its own which means rejecting systematic alignment on American positions. France is the best example of that, what you describe as cowardly, is actually a form of courage. Gaullist policies always aimed at the independence of France, be it from America or Russia. Therefore France developed its own nuclear weapons, refused to install American ones on their soil, expelled the headquarters of NATO, promoted independence rather than infeodation to one side at South-American countries during the cold war... When the cold war ends and America seems to be the great winner who will control everything, the first thing a Gaullist president does is conduct nuclear tests (I despise that), saying "we have the bomb, France will not be the pet dog of anyone"

The US can't stand that, then will call them names. And from what I see in Yago's post and what I see on other boards, the whole French-bashing is turning in all out Europe-bashing. France is just the symbol, most of Europe (and most of the world) want independence too.

I think it's more brave to stand up to superpowers than follow them like sheep and I think it's more brave to send troops in Ituri to prevent a genocide than to invade Iraq.

As for the Saving Private Ryan stuff, Normandy is a frigging historical site (some of it classified), would American authorities give permission to a foreign realisator to burn the white house for the sake of some film about the war of 1812? (a little exaggeration, but that's the idea)

When the movie Saving Private Ryan was being filmed, the French Government opposed filmmakers using actual pictures of the Beaches of Normandy or the massive graveyards that exist nearby. This was a HUGE slap in the face for Americans. We don't think France owes us a thing, but at least they should acknowledge the fact that we did help - acknowledge that fact the Britain, Canada and the United States died to save France.
These are just two examples, but the French Government has a reputation in the U.S. of being without backbone or honor.

Yes, and according to my interpretation of things, this reputation is shared by the whole continent (except the Island). Because the opinions and the politics of France do not differ heavely from the rest of the continent, concerning general principles.

The French have been picked out, now about Iraq, for the more or less same policy, with the majoritiy of European goverments towards the invasion of Iraq had. They didn't thaught of it as great idea. And those goverments who did approve it, did that against of the will of their people, notably Spain. So, again, why the French and not the Swiss, Belgians or Swedish ? Or the Spanish, because the majority of the Spanish didn't give a dam, when it was about stating their opinion about the whole issue.

Because French stands out and has a reputation, and truly so, for being the nation on the continent, to put it's national interest (which is mostly the same interest, which the other nations on the continent have) befor blindly following the ally on the other side of the pond. The Germans, are most of the time ready, to let put their own interests on the 4th place and do, what the Americans want for them. Even in this war, they didn't cripple the invasion of the Americans, through stop them from using Germany as big base and troop-circulation point. Another reason, why Germany was dealed with very soft from the American side. Pissing off Germany would have been like sabotaging the own war effort. Not good for the reputation of a republican.

I wouldn't see that a slap in the face. The Americans are some times very sensitive. On the other hand, not letting any filmmaker film on historical important ground isn't somehting really strange. If Hungarians would want to make a film about the American civil war, and wouldn't be allowed to film in Gettysburg, they wouldn't see that as a slap in the face, I guess.

The whole continent is not being lumped togather. Americans have a very favorable opinion of most nations in Europe. People across Europe are thought of as friendly and good-natured.

There really aren't any exceptions. I won't mention stereotypes - since they tend to be broad generalities.

But...

Europeans like Soccer (they call it football) which always perplexes Americans. Maybe it is due to the fact that we have Ice Hockey - which is simular but far more fast and aggressive. Soccer is not seen as a "man's sport". I know, I'm not being nice, but I'm being truthful. :)

Americans really have a favorable opinion of all of Europe. France, and only France, has a poor reputation. The rest of the European community is considered very honorable.

On the topic of movie Saving Private Ryan... the French Government would not let cameras take ANY pictures. There were no reenactments, no actors, and no danger to the site.

Soccer is not seen as a "man's sport". I know, I'm not being nice, but I'm being truthful Just see how many professional football (soccer for you) players end their carrier because of severe injuries, and then come and tell me that it's not a "man's sport".

Also, France has been the main target for american media and politicians just for one reason. It is a permanent member of the UN security council and it has the right to veto.

Europeans like Soccer (they call it football) which always perplexes Americans. Maybe it is due to the fact that we have Ice Hockey - which is simular but far more fast and aggressive. Soccer is not seen as a "man's sport". I know, I'm not being nice, but I'm being truthful.
Ice-Hockey ? Well, Ice-Hockey, hm, I guess you never heard about HC Davos or HC Lugano, our national Hockey team sucks as much as our football team, but Sweden and Finland ?

Or you could tell that about not being a man's sport to the Brazilians or Argentinians.

Americans really have a favorable opinion of all of Europe. France, and only France, has a poor reputation. The rest of the European community is considered very honorable.
As I said before, there is a tendency to divide the Europeans into "good" and "bad" ones, the French take the place of the "bad" ones. There are several factors which led to this situation. One main factor is, that most Americans which have European ancestors, are of German, Scandinavian, Dutch, Swiss (more than one might think)British or Irish descent. Bashing those countries would for most people mean bashing grand-parents and grand-grand parents.

But like that post posted by Sir Belisarius, the Amerians use the French to enhance themselves on a level, they do not belong. The Americans were themselves no match for the German army, but say that the French weren't either, by implying that the Americans actually would have been a match for the German army, if they would have faced the Germans without support of their allies, which actually did the biggest part of the work. So, reducing the French army, means on the same time, reducing the British and German army, actually every European army which was involved in the war.

Again, the French get the bashing, for the same thing, what most Europeans goverment did. Germany was/is security council member too. The French veto wasn't necessary, because the Americans would have lost the vote. On the other hand, it was Sweden, who kicked the Americans out of the human-rights commission.

Ice-Hockey ? Well, Ice-Hockey, hm, I guess you never heard about HC Davos or HC Lugano, our national Hockey team sucks as much as our football team, but Sweden and Finland ?Do you have a hockey team or an ice hockey team? There is a huge difference. Hockey without the ice, is a rather dull sport.

If you put ice hockey next to soccer, soccer really cannot compete. America owes alot to Canada for this sport.

Countries in Europe are not divided into good ones and bad ones. Many are right in the middle, not in agreement with the U.S., but their opinion is respected. Germany is one such nation.

If you want to see America is putting each nation into the "good" box or "bad" box, France is the only one in the "bad" box.

"French-bashing is a nasty symptom of an underlying American predilection for anti-intellectualism: a society whose most popular TV show features smoky chatter between poets and novelists naturally threatens the land of football and Pabst." - Ted Rall

;)

Maybe some language differencies -> Hockey here means the one on the ice. It was mandatory for me to play Ice-Hockey at school, but actually I sucked, because my blading skills weren't to good. Well, anyway, the Swiss hockey (ice) team sucks as much as the football team, so... But the Swedes and the Finns on the other hand ... So, actually a lot of European countries play soccer, seems like those are avoiding this thread.

Concerning Germany. Any decent US-politican with some foreign policy knowledge will stay away and discourage German-Bashing, because Germany is the most important European Ally the Amerians got. Pissing off the Germans would mean loosing the biggest part of inlfuence on the continent. An influence, which the UK isn't able to provide. So, the German-French cordial relationship is not only a pain in the ass for the British, it's also a pain in the ass for US-administrations. On the other hand, the relationship of Germany to the US is a pain in the ass for the French. It's both about influence on the continent. That is another reason, why the French often are presented as "force which tries to get control over Europe". Europeans which prioritize European interests, which is general French policy, is a thorn in the Flesh of US-Diplomats. Emancipation from Americans means frictions with the Americans. For the Americans it not the loss of the " nearly non-existing and mainly sucking" military power (that description is true, and I am happy, that my neighbouring countries, north and south, aren't in love with their military anymore. It's the economical weight, which added to the American one yields most impressive results. But, so my opinion, it would be wiser to use that weight for the own well-being and not for the well-being of the Americans. But that's slight of topic, because that is the general relationship between the continents, and one of the reasons, why other European countries are not as bashed in the media as France is.

By the way, when I say well-being, I mean well-being, to strive for "Superpower-status" is a waste of time, energy and money, because there's nothing to gain from it.

"French-bashing is a nasty symptom of an underlying American predilection for anti-intellectualism: a society whose most popular TV show features smoky chatter between poets and novelists naturally threatens the land of football and Pabst." - Ted RallIn that case, all I have to say is: Le cluck! :)

I think I should move the whole Soccer/Euro-Football subject to its own thread.

Americans really have a favorable opinion of all of Europe. France, and only France, has a poor reputation. The rest of the European community is considered very honorable.
"Honorable" is a nice word, won't here many Europeans use that word anymore, just another cultural difference.

I personally am the opinion, that the thinking of a lot of Americans were shaped by their founding fathers. The seperation of the Europeans works more or less, in the same way it did in the minds of the founding fathers.

Benjamin Franklin (http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/nash5e_awl/medialib/timeline/docs/sources/theme_primarysources_Immigration_1.html) wrote:

Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exlusive of the New Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth . I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.
And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion

He, he, but some Britsh sometimes dream with the American-Allies the impossible ... ahm ... imperial dream (Sarcasm):

as, for Instance, with Englishmen. Thus there are suppos'd to be now upwards of One Million English Souls in North-America, (tho' 'tis thought scarce 80,000 have been brought over Sea) and yet perhaps there is not one the fewer in Britain, but rather many more, on Account of the Employment the Colonies afford to Manufacturers at Home. This Million doubling, suppose but once in 25 Years, will in another Century be more than the People of England, and the greatest Number of Englishmen will be on this Side the Water. What an Accession of Power to the British Empire by Sea as well as Land! What Increase of Trade and Navigation! What Number of Ships and Seamen! We have been here but little more than 100 Years, and yet the Force of our Privateers in the late War, united, was greater, both in Men and Guns, than that of the whole British Navy in Queen Elizabeth's Time. . . .
The Heritage Foundation still sounds like Benjamin Franklin, and that's the place, where the American policies are made. The WASP-thinking is deeply embedded in American culture.

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[ June 04, 2003, 08:38: Message edited by: Yago ]