Dungeons & Dragons. Most of us here are at least somewhat familiar with the game, considering the theme of this lovely site. Some of us have even played the traditional PnP style as kids, and many here still do it to this day. You may be asking, why is this a topic for the alley?

Because according to some conservative christians, if you play D&D, you are a devil worshipper. Or at the very least, you invite the devil to take you over.

Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the commandment of I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d3.htm
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/204/0204_10.asp
http://www.chick.com/articles/frpg.asp
http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp

This is something that's always piqued my interest. I was a casual D&Der growing up (in not-so-open-minded Utah), and it was always considered "meddling with the devil" to play D&D and read related books. Growing up, members of my church even confronted me about my interest as if I were tumbling down the dark path, when the truth was I just thought it was funner than Super Mario Brothers and saw nothing harmless about it at all. I still don't, at least not for the most part. Even as a kid, I saw this arguement as little more than overzealous puritanical biblethumping, and a laughable sort at that.

Your thoughts, por favor. Religious viewpoints on the subject welcomed and expected.

(Not sure if this topic has been covered before, but I didn't find it in my search.)

[ May 14, 2003, 23:20: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

1. I am agnostic.

2. Edit: I am rephrasing the part which came over as an offensive generalization, by trying to get my point in a more differentiated manner through:

D&D usally uses pagan themes. Those people in this article are claiming, that those pagan-themes have somehting to do or are likely to lead to "occultism and satanism". I think that those people can not be taken seriously, neither from a rational standpoint nor from a christian standpoint.

Christian standpoint: Since the time of the reformation, iconoclasm and the anti-reformation of the catholic church, pagan myths no longer A. play part in christian believes (offically at least) and B. the big-churches don't take the usage of pagan themes in games, films and books as "threat" or "lure of Satan". In other words, no one seriously sees any danger in the myth of king Arthur or the illiad or the Ring of the Nibelungen (well maybe the last one, but for other reasons), because they are obviously pagan-myths.

Hey, the lady of the sea, Morgaine le fay...

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. They cannot both be true. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the Magical World View without being some sort of hypocrite or deceived person.

Now the question becomes, can a Christian play the game without subscribing to the world-view? It is possible, but considering the high level of emotional and intellectual commitment that the game requires, is that really realistic? D&D is not like chess or Monopoly. It is a game that engages the whole person at deep levels, and it can last months if well played. How can a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply and not have it impact the rest of their lives? This is difficult to imagine, especially considering the highly demonic and magical content of much of the game. As the saying goes, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

How is D&D anti-Biblical? First, because it presents a universe without God in the Bible sense.

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or deceived person. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even common sense.

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. They cannot both be true. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the Magical World View without being some sort of hypocrite or deceived person.

Now the question becomes, can a Christian play the game without subscribing to the world-view? It is possible, but considering the high level of emotional and intellectual commitment that the game requires, is that really realistic? D&D is not like chess or Monopoly. It is a game that engages the whole person at deep levels, and it can last months if well played. How can a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply and not have it impact the rest of their lives? This is difficult to imagine, especially considering the highly demonic and magical content of much of the game. As the saying goes, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

How is D&D anti-Biblical? First, because it presents a universe without God in the Bible sense.

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or deceived person. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even common sense.

I think those are some of the important points in all of it. The possible dangers of D+D to christanity are:

1. People using brain
2. People get presented with another world view

How can a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply and not have it impact the rest of their lives. That's the danger. People start to think for themselves. Get presented with another world view. The first of many more world views. The end: The start to question their preacher and their church. If they think for themselves and use other sources, they may find out, that what the preacher preachers is not a logical consistent system.

They maybe start to question. I bet, people who "paint the devil on the wall" have also a black list of TV-shows, books, papers and movies.

Star Wars seems to be one of them.

God, save our children from using their brains, they might get ideas !!!!!!

[ May 12, 2003, 22:10: Message edited by: Yago ]

Yago, I take offense at your repeated statement that Christians are "worshippers of trees". You've mentioned that before, and not only is it historically ludicrious, it is also laughable irrelevant to the discussion at hand. (sorry to be so strong here, but really, its patently un-true).

I am a Christian and have played D&D or D&D type games since I was 8 years old. Because of the bad press the game recieved in the late 70's, early 80's, I did get called out on it by my church board. To solve this, we invited my parents, the youth pastor and Sr. Pastor of our church to a game to observe. All they saw was a group of young people using their brains and developing creative, mathmatical and strategic skills. They gave it their full blessing.

Christians, like many other groups, tend to jump to conclusions before all the facts are presented.

I consider the "magical worldview" presented in Dungeons and Dragons to be fantasy. It is no more true than the Star Ship Enterprise. However, like the Enterprise, it is a wonderful enviroment for stories to develop.

That being said, Satan does exist and can use D&D (or other things) to lure people into real evil. A friend of mine actually aquired a spell book (published by the KKK ... which his Great-Uncle was a Grand Dragon in) and tried to cast some of the spells. That did not turn out well at all. The blame is not on D&D, in his circumstance it could have as easily been Nintendo games, Rock Music or any other medium.

The blame is not on D&D, in his circumstance it could have as easily been Nintendo games, Rock Music or any other medium. Or perhaps the blame could be on the kid himself and his apparant lack of good judgement and/or proper guidance, not some stupid video game/book/fantasy game. Or perhaps further still on the terrible infuence of his relatives. Why is it necessary to blame terrible actions on a medium? That kid still chose to cast spells or whatever, and the KKK still chose to publish a book on casting spells. Is there no resp[onsibility to be taken by the stupid kid and his screwed up relatives? Why is it that materials and the media have to be blamed for someone doing something stupid, when in the end, it was the free will of the person that committed the act, not the material?

At Mathetias:

Sorry if I offended you. I din't mean to say,that christans are "tree worshippers". I meant, before pagans became christians, they were "tree worshippers".

Before the Germanic tribes, Slavic tribes, Greeks and Romans became Christian, they all had "Tree worshipping" as common belief. It still has survived inside the culture -> A big and mighty Oak, the cutting of the mistletoe, knock on wood, Oh Tannenbaum, the peace dove with the branch, to rest on one's laurels and so on. That is BEFORE (Highlighting before)the became christans.

Athene, is the godess of wisdom -> Her animal is the owl, her tree is the ash tree. Is this pagan ? Yes it is. Is it OK today to be afraid of pagan superstitions ? In my opinion, no. So, it's OK for lord of the rings and Dungeon and Dragons (Owl's wisdom, Eagles splendor) to use pagan customs in their games. Like it's Ok for children to partake in former pagan customs like celebrating halloween/carnival. And like it's ok for the state to take obvious pagan symbolic to demonstrate state-power -> Eagle on a Air-Force plane, A Lion in front of public building.

Edit: No, it is not the typo devil, my English spelling just sucks.

[ May 12, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: Yago ]

Christians don't like D&D? I wasn't aware of that.

Ask most Christians about D&D, and it is likely that they will either be unfamiliar with it, or have no real opinion on it. Maybe a few will play it (such as I, and a few others on SP and other gaming communities). I'm quite glad that fervor against D&D has mostly died out (along with fervor against rock music and modern clothing, but that's beyond the point). On the other hand, I'm not so glad anti-Christianity hasn't.

On D&D itself, I'd like to say that it's not harmful, and that most people don't turn into crazy Satanists/Communists/Anarchists/Druggies. Suffice to say, it is harmless, and it is only role-playing and mere conception of demons, pagan gods, and the supernatural. I believe that the number of Christian gamers exceeds the number of gamers that actually believe that the things in D&D can be replicated in real life by themselves.

But that's not to say it isn't totally, 100% okay. Like with other games, D&D can just take away your life, not let you think outside the box, and just become anti-social to non-gamers. Of course, that can happen with movies, a youth group, a congregation, and so on. And with D&D, it's even less likely to happen, IMHO.

I'll sum it up by saying that four guys going into a room and pretending to be elves isn't Satanic, but nonetheless a tad odd.

(There was a topic a bit like this a few months ago that was diverted into the D&D forum.)

Nonesense(I would say bull... but the censorship would rule it out). Dungeons & Dragons is just a game. No-one should take it too seriously. I play D&D very often but this doesn't mean I'm a satanist or something like this.
And I must admit that I do not believe in any god so I cannot believe in Satan etc., I believe that evil is manmade and not caused by a superior being.

I commented on this in the earlier forum that ended up in the D&D section, but many Christians, (such as Mathetais and myself) play and enjoy D&D. The better descriptor for people with a problem with D&D would be "whackjob".

Sometimes, people go too far with D&D, but the same can be said for any game -- look at problem gambling! Or guns, for that matter. I own a gun, but some people immerse themselves in what I term the "gun sub-culture" and become dangers to the rest of the population. The problem isn't the guns, it's not even the gun culture, it's the idiot who loses track of reality.

i wasn't gonna' touch this one, but, the subject of paganism reared it's head so.....

@ Mat, i've read somewhere (i'll look for the book later) that the original christian saints were nothing more than pagan gods. the christians granted them sainthood to entice pagans into converting. is this true? if so, then i have a hard time trusting the christian faith. lying and making saints of pagan gods to gain followers? doesn't sound right to me. i think i'll go hug a tree :D

oh wait, have i lost track of reality? i don't own a gun but i do have a Bible :)

Because according to some conservative christians, if you play D&D, you are a devil worshipper. Or at the very least, you invite the devil to take you over.
This thought is so weird, that it doesn't even deserve a comment. And I can't belive anyone is seriously believing this. That's humbug.

Sadly, Yago, this is not humbug. There ARE those out there who really believe this sort of thing about D&D, not to mention fantasy in general. Some people classify Harry Potter as satan's tool, and there have been book burnings in several States (and I'm sure, elsewhere). The problem I have is when people take the examples of a few Christians and straw man the argument to apply to all Christians.

@Deathrabbit:
Or perhaps the blame could be on the kid himself and his apparant lack of good judgement and/or proper guidance That's what I meant ... my friend was a powder-keg looking for any excuse to flip-out. (sorry buddy but it was true! :( )

@Yago ... sorry if I over-reacted. Yes, Christianity did convert many animist/pagans. I took your comment to read that Christianity was an evolved form of tree-worship (aka animism) ... that's the false statment.

@Greenlion ... shut up! ;) Seriously, the early saints were real people, not pagan gods. You can make an argument that some parts of early Christian worship resembled the 1st & 2nd Century mystery religions (like Minthris), but that's a different point.

:good:

So, to sum, D&D is considered okay by most educated Christians (as much as any hobby could be called "okay"), only those who tend towards hysterics view it as intrinsically evil.

I'd rather burn a Dixie Chicks CD than a D&D book!!!! :lol:

Of course, there's a lot of things that are accepted into mainstream Christianity today that probably would have been better off left out. Seems like we're more concerned with being entertained than going out and helping people... but ah well.

As far as Christianity incorporating paganist rituals, that happened in large part when Catholicism was established as a state religion in Rome to ease the transfer of worship. It was by no means what Christ taught. Don't confuse what people who call themselves Christians do; there have been murderers who claimed they were following God's orders. That doesn't make murder acceptable or a part of true Christian teaching.

Miroslav Satan ? :D

o.k. i guess i'll shut up (not!) i wasn't making that stuff up, i did read that somewhere. i know, reading something doesn't make it true (all books included), but it did make me think. and Capstone, you've made a good point.

also, i love D&D and the Harry Potter books, so i guess i'm hellbound. big shocker, huh Mat? :p ;)

If D&D and Harry Potter destines one for hell, I'll see you there, Greenlion! We'll roast weenies. I'll try to buy enough for the entire SP population.

Mathetais, you wouldn't burn a Dixie Chicks CD, would you? ;) I liked their magazine cover :bigeyes:

Not many intelligent, informed Christians buy the devil worship silliness.

Oh, Greenlion, you don't believe everything you read, do you? :evil:

I guess after reading the posts on this thread that it would be fair to assume that the whole "D&D is the devil's tool" position is in fact pretty rare among the Christian status quo. It always seemed to me to be a much more common misconception...but then again I did grow up in Utah. :D

This viewpoint can safely be lumped in, IMO, with the silliness about Harry Potter promoting the occult and Tinky Winky, Barney and Spongebob promoting homosexuality. Little more than self-righteous windbags like Jerry Falwell tacking the devil onto something harmless aimed at kids in order to give himself moral credibility. I happen to find these arguements terribly amusing, but I also think they tend to greatly discredit the conservative establishment. They make them look more like witch hunters than concerned moral objectors. At least that's my view. When I hear things like this it makes it very difficult for me to take hard-core conservative christians - particularly those who are public figures - seriously.

I guess after reading the posts on this thread that it would be fair to assume that the whole "D&D is the devil's tool" position is in fact pretty rare among the Christian status quo. I really hope so. D&D is often misunderstood. It may seem that a lot of Christians are against it because some of the visible ones are against it. I remember Pat Robertson condemn D&D in the mid-80s. (Yes, that was a LOOOONG time ago.) ;) My friend's mom burned all his D&D books.

In my humble opinion d&d is no more harmful then monopoly and poker. Just what is more evil: running a character that can't be Christian since there's no Christianity or anything similar in his world or playing a money-worshipping bloodsucker?

D&d is (role-) play... No more life than books or theatre, but well, reasonably more direct in approach and thus possibly of greater influence. But it's only individual intensity matter.

What's more d&d can't really be not influenced by Christianity as a part of our civilisation. I doubt the authors were Christians (I might be mistaken), but I don't think they were anti-Christian either and simply didn't really care rather than intended any harm.

It's however still possible to set up a Christian (-like) world or adventure in d&d realia, but again what's worse - creating a world where all the multiple gods really exist or giving a false image of God and either having Him respond to prayers as the DM sees fit (plus some other matters depending on placet from above) or having Him not intervene at all, which is also not what Christians believe in? For a Catholic like I, a moderately acceptable solution is to have a monotheistic God not subject to any limitations that isn't really active and some assembly of saints, angels and that sort. One can also think up some saint to act as patron deity for a paladin, ranger or cleric even in Forgotten Realms realia. However, I doubt Protestants would like the concept very much ;)

Last, but not least, the pagan, agnostic and atheistic (plus several others) ideas present in rules and related books. It's impossible to read only what's written by Christian authors. Even if so, one would still have to stick to what's acceptable for his particular denomination or even the mainstream or chief body of his denomination. That's simply impossible if God is to be God - by definition beyond our mortal cognition, our understanding, our endurance and whatever. Considering also that for religious people every aspect of life is touched by religion, it's impossible to just ban something and turn the brain off. As I was answered by a Catholic priest whom I once asked about roleplaying, one must judge what poses a threat to his faith. I believe that to some degree it's an individual responsibility based on subjective criteria. I would also say that more evil may come from one's individual roleplaying than the system or DM's decisions and it's all more about morality than theology anyway - even though it's always *acting* and someone has to play the evil ones (not that making a habit and sort of kinky pleasure of that is what a devoted believer is supposed to do ;) ). However, if one spends all his times writing sermons and orations for his favourite morninglord and neglects his own God or fancies his necromancer alter ago more than the real world, that becomes a problem.

no Depaara, uh i mean, Lord Keldin Depaara,(still not used to your lordship) i don't. however there must be a reason such things are published, right?


hold on, Spongebob's a homo? i had no clue, crap my kids love that show, now what do i do?

[ May 14, 2003, 21:13: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

@ Greenlion

:rolleyes: No, Spongebob is not a homo. Neither are Tinky Winky or Barney. Spongebob is popular amongst the gay community because he sends a message of tolerance and being happy with who you are. Nothing more. He even took that whale girl to her prom, so as far as I know no related connotation to Spongebob's gayness can be seriously made (I watch it with my nephews). This idea comes from the same idiots who got Burt kicked off of sesame street because he lived alone with Ernie, and they said that they were gay too. Equally ridiculous and over-sensative. Don't worry, your kids are safe. I promise.

(you were kidding...right?)

no, i wasn't kidding and i love ernie & bert, if they're gay then this world is a complete screw up.

BTW... DeathRabbit, you're cool as hell Texas rocks!!!! :thumb:

This is off-topic but why on earth would it even matter if those cartoon characters were gay or not? If I had run those networks that aired them I wouldnt defend them and claim that they are not gay. I would tell the narrow minded hateful bastards that Sponge Bob's sexual orientation is none of their freaking buisness.

@ Greenlion

Why thank you, oh mighty hornet's nest basher. :lol:

@ jaocqin

I completely agree - it shouldn't matter. But it would seem you aren't terribly familiar with the state and standards of American television. Political correctness and a "proper" moral example on television are so fussed over here in the states it's obscene. Too many people here (and by "too many" I mean just enough to make TV executives nervous) still equate being gay with promoting a sinful, immoral lifestyle. You'd think we were bigger than this as a society, but we aren't. People are especially ferocious here when it comes to children's programming. If there's even the slightest indication - intentional or not - that a program portrays or advocates anything "alternative," child advocate groups have a total fit. They read so much into harmless shows like Spongebob that people actually begin to associate them with the unfair accusation these groups seem to pin to it. Thereby furthering the controversy and giving rise to more moral witch hunts to "protect our children." It happens here all the time.

Standards of decency with regard to the media varry greatly from country to country. In Germany, for example, it's perfectly acceptable to show a naked woman or a thinly-veiled boner in a commercial. But in America, even showing an inter-racial couple in a TV commercial gets networks nervous. Not offending anyone takes far more precedence than substance, meaning or new ideas.

Alas, this would be better suited in another thread. :yot: It'd probably be a good one, too.

:yot: Concerning TV. Except for the UK (and Ireland, I guess), that statement of Death Rabbit applies to the whole of Europe. He, he, you should tune in to Italian TV. Understanding is not required, seeing is enough. :bigeyes: And that starts with the daly news show. But yes, that's one of those cute cultural differences, which are bigger than a galaxy.

And concerning this topic, there is another cultural difference. I can not imagine any European country, were someone would say something like that about D&D. That would be approx. the same as saying, that women shouldn't be allowed to work or that electricity is a sin or that bathing in a sea heals cancer. In short, the person would be stared at. Very, very stared at. :bang: :bang: :bang:

This topic is taking an interesting turn, so I think I'll let it.

@ Yago

Moral standards with regard to broadcasting and mass media, IMO, are at a much more mature level in most of Europe than they are here. I personally see nothing wrong with a child seeing a naked adult body in a non-sexual circumstance on television or whatever. We all mature, we all go through puberty. This isn't something that should be shielded from children for any logical reason IMO. But I'm sure many here in the states would argue (this is their arguement mind you, not mine) that the lack of moral standards with regards to the media contribute to the crime rate, apathy, and general deterioration of proper family life in many European countries. I'm no expert on European culture, so I can't agree or disagree, but it would seem to me that those who make this arguement don't know much about Europe either.

crime rate, apathy, and general deterioration of proper family life in many European countries. I'm no expert on European culture, so I can't agree or disagree, but it would seem to me that those who make this arguement don't know much about Europe either. to me that those who make this arguement don't know much about Europe either That's for sure. ;) Now, (I just state a fact, not bashing), if you ask most Euorpeans, what country comes to mind when "crime rate" is mentioned, it is not an European one. And to apathy in general and detoration of family life. I haven't stumbled over general apathy yet, nor does anyone blame detoration of family life with naked people on the tv, rather with bad choises people make.

With regard to these so-called moral advocate groups...

Let's take Burt getting kicked off of Sesame Street (assuming Sesame Street's international popularity negates a need for explanation here). Throughout my childhood, and even into grade school, I loved Sesame Street. Burt and Ernie were my favorites by far, becuase Ernie was always cheery and a good friend, despite Burt always being cranky. I always thought they set a great example of what it meant to be a good friend. Never - NEVER - did it cross my mind that they were anything but good buddies. Even as I got older, and actually learned what homosexuality was (I have a gay cousin who brought a "friend" to Thanksgiving when I was 9 ;) ). The very idea never even crossed my mind - or the rest of America - until some self-righteous parent's group jumped up on their soapboxes. The Sesame Street people of course denied and fought this, because it was completely ridiculous and untrue. But the controversy surrounding it was so bad they eventually yanked Burt from the show to quiet the controversy and avoid legal action. Now Ernie lives alone. :(

So my question is, who's the real sicko here? These people were the ones who "decided" Burt was gay, not Jim Henson (Sesame Street's creator). These people put that idea in the air and exposed millions of kids to the idea of homosexuality, not Burt. Hell, maybe Burt was gay! Major closet case if he was, but still - it was never Burt, Ernie or their actions that brought light to the idea...it was the parent's groups.

I think that Nitche said that when you hunt a beast at some point you become the beast.
All this is just another witch hunting that comes from people (zealots) who try to put the blame for something (decay of the society) :confused: on something (see D&D, rock, internet you name it). All these people fail to see a very simple fact there are not evil things there are evil people. And by acting this way (selfishly,unwilling to accept different points of view) they become exactly what they are hunting, evil. :cool:

Thats Nietzsche

The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. BTW, if we gonna simplify it to moralist vs. media,
which way should the immoralist who would rather not stand on the media side go? ;)

@Ironbeard

yes, Nietzsche

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss
the abyss also gazes into you...

[ May 15, 2003, 19:37: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Wasn't that Neitzsche quote at the start of Baldur's Gate. At least it was something along these lines...

That's the one...I couldn't remember it properly. Oh, and I've corrected the spelling, like you pointed out :)

[ May 15, 2003, 23:57: Message edited by: Ironbeard ]