I'm sorry my spelling but I'm from Argentina, a country "down under"... this country is full of poiliticians who have steal our future and money by selling everything we had (oil, telefonia, railroads, etc). Recently, we choose new president, because a tie, we suppose to vote again this sunday but Menem, decided to redraw... what makes me sick is the ability of this people to tear apart a country and just 4 years later come back again!, and what's makes me even more sick is that there's stil people that vote them...
Can anybody tell me how I get rid of this politicians? May I kill them? That would do any better?
Thanks in advance...

My friend first of all i want to express my sympathies to you and the people of Argentina for all the suffering you are going through. Secondly i want to say that although in your country this phenomenon is in its worst form, it does exist everywhere in this world.
Incompetent people are in the ruling places and the worst thing they get re-elected but from the people that they were benefited by their incompetence.
This is the system now and this will be until the masses decide to start a global revolution and get rid of these scums.
This system furthermore is Democracy only in theoritical form and in fact it is an Oligarchy that starts to run out of alternatives (new faces, more capable faces).
All i can say is i'm sorry and that is all i can do because i'm too (i mean Greece) in a similar situation and i still haven't found the answer to this problem.
I do believe that they deserve severe punishment even death but my ethics do not allow me to do that :(

Menem. As far as heard, he chose to redraw from the race, because he has no chance to win.

To Democracy:

It's not easy, it's a hard and winding road to get there. I can say that form pretty comfortable position. I was born into a very old and stable Democracy, so the work has all been done for me. I was born in democratic luxury. And I have still optimism, maybe because I am young and naive. And I think, that the military-dictatorship from the 80's f**** so many things up, that Argentina will need a lot of time and work to recover. Dam, Argentina once was the 6th richest country of the world.

and what's makes me even more sick is that there's stil people that vote them... Democracy to work needs a few things,

a. People with good education and working skills. If there are a lot of people who can read or write and happen to have working expirience in reading bilance sheets, there ain't no politican getting away with stealing.

b. People have to be willing to give time for political matters, they have to be interested in it. Not all have to be, but the more, the better. And people have to be willing, to sacrifice of their time to work as a politican. I personally do not, but I appreciate the effort of those who do.

c. Education, Education, reading the newspapers, freedom of speech, watching daily-news on the tv, information, information, information. If a lot of people to that (and they seem to have it), the less is the chance, that a guy like Menem gets a second chance to mess around.

d. Poltical debate. There is no stronger ground for building political opinions then couple of people in a restaurant, pub or barber shop, discussing politicss. That's were democracy comes from.

That's my rather naive and optimistic view on things. But I am convinced, that democracy works. It just needs time, to get a foot in the door.

And democracy will never be perfect, just better than anything else.

May I kill them? You're serious about that?

Killing a political leader most likely won't solve the problems your country faces. Ask the Dutch what good did the death of Pym Fortuin brought to asylum policies. Or look what happened in Serbia when Zoran Djindjic was assassinated. Look at Kabila in Congo, look at...

Yeah, you have to get people educated. And it can't just be the Koran, or the Bible, or your lineage. It's gotta be all the other stuff too. Math and chemistry and physics and Australian history.

There's so many things that you learn "cause and effect" relationships kind of stuff from, that it helps you consider the future whenever you do something.

And you have to have checks and balances. It might not be easy to remove a president from office; America has never done it.

But there is a procedure. It's on the books. It's been talked about, in a serious kind of way, several times over the years.

Watchers, watching the watchers, watching the watchers watch.

There are only two ways to solve this problem (that i could work out).
1) (which has been mentioned before) educate people. This is a very slow method but has almost a 99% chance of working. But even some 'educated' countries are still ruled by encompident (spelling?) people, take USA for example (i shouldn't have said that).

2) (which you mentioned before) kill all the bloody leaders. Hay its worked before. Its called a revoultion mate. Affective if pulled off right. Suicide if done wrong. ;)

Oh yes and theres a third as well.
3) Assasination. Yes that wont work at once but in the end (after assasinating many presidents) they might get the message that they are unwanted and that you want a 'good' (if one exsists). But ofcourse is this really worth the life of a human being? And with this last solution its just as likely you'd end up with the miltary or mafia running the country. Its a risk you take.

But if your completly unhappy with the government, why don't you run for it your self?

is this relly worth the life of a human being?
You're asking if what may be the misery of thousands is worth the life of an greedy and uncaring man? Hell yes. Depends on the situation but since I believe that humans reincarnate you'r average human life doese'nt mean that much to me. It (as always) depends on the sitiation.

Democracy will never work. It is nothing but organized mob rule. A consitutional republic is the only government worth having. If only we in the USA could return to our lost republic,destroyed by Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Johnson and every president since.

How would one define that kind of republic, since the "time" in your post alludes to the period before the Civil War?

[ May 29, 2003, 03:38: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

Easy, a Federal Government held in check by the Constitution.
No Social Security, Department of Education, BATF, DEA, FDA, and just about every other current Federal agency.
No troops stationed overseas.
No undeclared wars by the President.
No Civil Rights Acts (any of them)
A Federal government so small it could be supported soley by tarriffs and sin taxes.
No West Virginia (created illegally by Lincoln)
Many more regional differences.

Let's try again, Claron, since it's so "easy." Basically, you gave us a laundry list of acts and laws that you dislike for reasons you didn't state, other than a vague reference to the Constitution. How would you define such a republic? If you dislike these laws, would you explain how "your republic," which may never have existed, would provide such remedies in their place.

[ June 01, 2003, 02:18: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

You're asking if what may be the misery of thousands is worth the life of an greedy and uncaring man? Hell yes. Depends on the situation but since I believe that humans reincarnate you'r average human life doese'nt mean that much to me. It (as always) depends on the sitiation. As Gandalf the Gray said (I think it was him and I think he said this but my memory at the moment isn't the best
Even the most wise amoung us can not decide who should live and who should not No one has or will ever have the right (IMHO) to deal out death and life. Even if they kill millions, or make thousands misrible, for all you know they might have some unseen reason behind this.

No one has or will ever have the right (IMHO) to deal out death and life. Even if they kill millionsParadox?

Maybe I should rephrase this.
No one has or will ever have the right (IMHO) to deal out death and life. Even if the person they want to die has killed millions, or made thousands misrible, for all you know they might have some unseen reason behind this.

Is that better?

Clearer, but not better since you gave no reasoning behind why you feel this way. A vague reference to "unseen reasons" is unconvincing IMO.

Ok then. I feel this way (the way stated above) because I believe that people shouldn't be allowed to destroy things that arn't theirs. If that makes any sence. A life only belongs to its owner and therefore only its owner should have the right choice the card of death or the card of life, it shouldn't be dealed (sp?) out to them by someone else.

Unless by a sickness or accident but thats not what I'm talking about.

Claron - You're a libertarian... right?