Alright, a friend asked me this and I have been unable to provide him with an answer because it is totally out of my sphere of knowledge or consideration. :confused:

Who is the stronger/more intelligent/doing the right thing?

1) He who leaves and severes all connections/ties with she who is unreceptive of his affections. After venting much frustration and bitterness, he is once again able to renew his life.

2) He who is content to remain by her side although in a capacity that does not fulfill his desire for her affections in return. I.e, the 'good friends and all' shtick. He is unable to move on at all, but is an extremely worthy friend to her, although he will never be anything else in her eyes.

Hmm. The words are weirdly phrased but I cannot think of a better way to put them as the asker was not very coherent to begin with.

Perhaps this should be in AoDA, but I thought that issues that do not relate beyond a personal scale aren't serious enough for an Alley discussion.

Do share your thoughts, please. :confused:

The second is the stronger, being able to stand giving without reciveing and knowing he will not get what he wants. If the first one needs to break away completely to get over her, then what will happen when they meet again?

Might depend on the situation, but I would prefer getting as far away as possible and burn all bridges behind you. I have tried the other solution and spend 5 months in a living hell (exageration) before growing wiser.

Hmm, seems like I have to read the question a little closer.... The morally stronger person will ofcourse stay, as it is not necessarily her fault that she doesn't have the same feelings as him. He just has to be prepared to pay the price.

A psychically tougher and morally stronger person will not severe connections if there's no fault on the loved one's part.

But it's not so simple. This only works if she wants friendship... and if she really wants it - not just 'let's be friends' to alleviate his suffering.

First, if they aren't normally friends, there's no friendship to preserve. There's an acquaintance, and a failed romantic pursuit. There's no duty towards the loved one. It's the unlucky one's decision what to do.

There is physically no way that he remains sort of virgin priest to her for the rest of his life ;) At some point he will need love, he will need another woman, perhaps he will have crushes, will fall in love again. What's more, his unilateral affection will most probably be a painful sight for his loved one. She will feel at least uncomfortable. This feeling will continue and grow in strength. Eventually, she might even sacrifice herself to relieve her friend of pain... and fake love. Or just agree to be with him, just because he's so unhappy (things like this have happened). It would be better for both of them to find a right person.

I would say friends, but not the way he sees it. Just friends. Even good friends, he being ready to help all the time etc... like you normally are towards good friends. I have one such friend myself, but that's only friendship, there's no longer any love. Or it's dormant or transformed, I don't know. Perhaps the effort is mainly on my part, there is some special sentiment, she has a special way with me and I don't really remember refusing a request, but she's a friend, only - and I no longer want to be with her. It just changed over time.

At present, I'm in a situation very much similar to the one of your friend, Shura.

It started and developed like a relationship without getting too physical, but by accident we started a serious talk and it turned out she wasn't interested that way. She, however, was apparently unsure and she had been sending contradicting signals. Platonic (a very populat wrong use, of course :p ), or friendship, or whatever, she said. It was news for her, she was quite shaken, and I only confessed to being interested. She, however insisted very strongly (which surprised me really much) on meeting still and on developing the friendship. I didn't understand that (and it was apparent that she wanted it for some reason, not just to give me 'something'), but I agreed and verbalised some support. However, her attitude towards me changed, she interchangeably enjoyed contact with me or avoided me, and no day or hour was good for us to meet again (while she insisted on meetings - otherwise I wouldn't have proposed a meeting, I wouldn't even have wanted one). She apparently enjoyed seeing me accidentally even more than I enjoyed seeing her, smiled instantaneously and was quicker to say hello. She was extremely considerate in 1v1 talks, but things were changing in more public settings or at that university party we both visited. That was all strange. for After a week we had a second talk, in which I confessed to *feelings*, not only attraction and we explained things to each other further. There's no way, according to her, she will ever feel anything romantic to me, while she had strong feelings of the friendly kind. However, she was feeling uncomfortable in my presence - she said something about it flowing in the air (it was only her impression, though). She had to think how she were going to treat me from there on... and well, think it all over (although definitely no chance of relationship, so the whole thinking thing surprised me). At that point, I left it all up to her and told her to tell me when she wants to restore friendly relations. I'm not going to do anything more myself (although I'd probably go there and comfort her if she were very sad or if something very bad happened) and I consider it her turn now. I am fully satisfied with my choices and fully assured of their moral value. I have done and am doing the right thing and I don't regret anything I've done. Well, yes, the choices were moral, not convinient. I didn't care about convinience, I was making moral choices and moral decisions and I screwed my own convinience and my own good at those moments. For a longer time I won't be able to have a normal relationship and it will also take some time before I start dating again. She's still sending contradicting signals, keeps getting happy and warm at my sight and she's also seeking contact and changing her mind right before talking to me etc. If I'm single when she reconsiders (immediate or abstract future), fine. If not, then pity, but I'm very serious about my commitments. I also think this is a very morally correct decision. I believe you should suggest this solution to your friend.

I am in a 2) situation at the moment, or to be more specific for the last year or so. We have been in a relationship for 6 years of which we lived together for 3,5 years. She found out that she did no longer loved me as she had done. It came as a suprise, but at the smae time I should have know it. Maybe i've been blind for her signals. We decided that it was bes tto break up and I moved out. I now again live on my own for more than a year, but we still try to be good friends. It has been difficult at moments, but my felings for seem to be less strong. It took longer than I thought or hoped, But eventually I seem to get over her...
As thet say, time heals all wounds...

Just out of curiousity, Chev, how long have you been in that situation?

Being strong is different from being intelligent is different from doing the right thing.

If you mean by doing the right thing, as far as I can figure out from what you're saying (my eyes are acting up a bit today), go with the latter. At least you're there for someone, even if it's not reciprocal.

I don't understand why some people feel that the right thing to do is to remain by her side, as you said, because that to me seems for to satisfy your own desires than hers.

You have no duty to this woman, she is not in need of either your support or your affection and she holds no obligation over you on her behalf, yours, or any others - at least this is what I assume.

To answer all parts of your question.

The stronger thing is to walk away. You have no obligation or need to stay or leave apart from your desire to be with her, thus to oppose your desire, and leave, is the stronger thing.

By doing so you also set yourself above the need and dependance upon another, and you build upon your strength.

If you stay with her you become responcible for her, because it is your choice in doing so-thus any discomfort she may feel is your fault, in knowing that she does not share your feelings. Also, by letting her depend on you, despite the lack of anything that she in turn gives to you, you are in fact doing her a great disservice, by in turn making her reliant upon another, denying her the growth that would be a result of your severance of attachment, and allowing her to think that there are little consequences for her actions-whether these actions are right or no.

Doing the right thing despite harrowing consequences is one of the most important things to learn.

By staying in her presence you are chooosing the more comforatable route, however miserable you may become in that, there is a reason you feel you must do it, because otherwise you would leave, as I said, you have no obligation to her and so it can only be for the sake of your own comfort, however ludicrous that may sound.

You also will moer than likely stagnate in such a position.

By setting up a one-sided friendship (no matter how good a friend she tries to be, you will be giving more, whether it is accepted or not), an unbalance that is held in tension by your opposing emotional and logical strains, you are stifling the oppurtunity for progression. You are in fact holding yourself back.

If you stay a constant companion to her, no doubt things may get ugly, or this may never happen, but I guarantee the time will be wasted, later down the line you will recognize your folly and realize you must abandon your pursuit-having learnt something for certain, but this may be learnt in a far less painful manner.

To do the right thing is not to follow logic or emotion but morality. To work in the service of humanity. What greater good are you working towards here? None. What lesser good are you working towards here? None. As I said before, you are only servicing your own comnfort and are in fact working to the detriment of all parties involved. Do not draw chains around yourself or any other where the case is not necessary, you hinder all parties involved and usually make the situation worse than it was when you arrived.

This touches on another point. If you take responcibilty for another, you take responcibilty for their actions, but do not take that responcibilty away from them. No-one is ever freed from their own consequences.

I am aware this is not the case, I only say you are not doing anyone any favours by devoting yourself to someone who neither wants or needs that help.

If they want it and do not need it, by all means help, if only to show them your own sense of compassion, and the folly of their wants- but do not become dependant on them yourself, do not become unhealthily attached, and do not allow them to become dependant on you.

You may love someone without either being attracted to, or without feeling a need to be surrounded by that person. You may in fact love everyone and everything, but to want something or feel you need it is another thing entirely. However slight this feeling is it is an addiction, and should be treated as such.

My advice is to keep your polite respectful distance until this feeling is no longer aroused in such a way. You may still like the girl, feel attracted to her, want to help her, but you will not feel the need to be around her. Once this is the case, you may return to the friendship in this new manner, and you will recognize the difference in the way you approach things with her, if she no-longer wants to be around you, you will understand, you will not be upset, and you will understand that this would have happened anyeway, but in a more painful fashion- I do not beleive this will be the case however, I beleiev you may return to friendship with her, and in this case it will be a true friendship.

As it stands, regardless how good you are to each other, you are not being her friend, and I am not sure as to whether she is being yours, she may simply not know how to handle it.

If, after this time allowed for introspective reflection you realize you would rather move on entirely, then do this in the knowledge that you have done the right thing by everyone.

Lead by example, to do this is not only stronger and wiser, the right thing, it is also, as you say, the most intelligent, because you avoid unnecessary pain, embrace necessary pain, and react i na way which serves everyone to the greatest good, which is in your best interests.

If you cut off all communication then she could very well be hurt by it.

I think the nuber 2 is the "stronger" option... Then again, I am being selfish...

I admit having fallen for a friend, and then managing to blurt it out. Also got rebuked. The result? Well, severing all ties would have been bad, because losing the friendship would have made my life a lot more horrid. The result, is the option number 2 and coping with it to the best of my ability.

Eze tells me it's fascination anyway.

And NO, it's not Eze! I didn't blurt out any love confessions to her when we got drunk... :p get your minds out of the gutter! :p

Yeah sure, and I agree with the other posters here that maybe you should try to still be her friend (and by you, I refer to the hypothetical), but it is far stronger to admit your fault, and correct that fault, then to deny it and be dragged down by it. To reach that point without "taking a break," well, you may feel it requires more strength to do this, but even if it is pulled off (I'm assuming that the attachmet to this girl is strong) it really only serves your pride by doing so.

Pride is the greatest weakness of any of us, by refuting it, you not only act with great will, but you build that strength as well. There is a big difference between pride and self-respect.

From what I've learned through personal experience, while option number 2 seems the "stronger" option, it isn't always the smartest option. If this girl is truly a friend, and I mean truly, go for option 2. If she isn't however, go for option 1. I've been going through hell the past months going on option 2, and found out after much suffering that I was being strong for a friendship that was a fake, a lie.

It really depends on wether she's a true friend of yours or not...

Manus and Faragon have the right of it! The man needs to think of one thing:

While he's busy befriending this woman, who is befriending him?

In such a situation, each person must take of their own emotional well-being BEFORE trying to tend to someone else's. "Strong" and "smart" are the same things, in the long run.

Never fall love in the first place. I can't understand stupid people, who fall in love and later whine that everything's so bad. :/

Go with option 1 and just go away. Maybe she doesn't even care about you. :/

Eze, one of these days, you're going to find that one person, fall madly in love with said person, see it returned and experience absolute bliss.

That day we'll be waiting here to see you retract everything you've been saying about love on these boards.

Funny topic given my current situation.

I've been with Simone for 6 years now. We loved each other more than life itself. When my mom passed away, though, I grew cold on the inside -- I withdrew into myself. She tried for 3 years to reach me but I was blind to the pain I was causing her and I conned myself into thinking that everything was OK. She lost her romantic love for me over the last 3 years as I killed it by not paying attention to her.

So she turfed me. We have 3 kids, and so we see each other frequently. I still love her and want to be with her, ut she says that though she loves me as a friend, the father of her children, and all that, she cannot trust me not to hurt her. I'm left in a difficult position. I would die for her, no hesitation, and while I feel like that about her there's no point in dating anyone else. I failed her miserably, and so I plan on spending the rest of my life trying to make up for that horrible mistake. I will be there for her to talk to, to take care of the kids when she needs to go out, to cut down on the housework she has to do, and for anything else she needs. I have no problem doing that -- I owe her a great debt (you wouldn't believe the efforts she went to to try and get me emotionally involved with life) and I will pay it and more besides.

Faragon: Like that's gonna happen. It's called infatuation. :rolleyes:

And it's dumb as heck. If you need to have sex like a normal person, just pick someone up. So easy.

"One day, you will meet that special someone."

Yes... Hope for the future. It's what keeps people alive when all else fails. Too bad reality has more power than hope.

It's ironic really. For so long (as long as a 22 year old person has been able to) I've believed that ignorance really is bliss. And with the one thing where I completely failed to abide by that, I find I actually enjoy it. Reality is that you will never meet that special someone. There is no-one like that. Luck and circumstance may lead you to a relationship that could last well beyond your own age, of course. But you're more likely to win in lottery than find something like that.

As far as this topic goes. Some day I may say something about this, as precisely this question is something that very closely relates to my hatred and simple frustration towards these things. For the moment though, I do not feel confident enough to go there. Suffice to say, I lied when some 10 months ago I went and said that my reaction towards this was of a logical, not emotional basis.

I believe that this choice depends on the situation. If i try to make out with a woman i hardly know in terms of friendship i would unquestionably would take choice number 1. I find a sort of vampirism to lurk outside a woman heart just to get the crumbs of love she might toss towards you out of pity.
If again she is a friend (and worse a good friend) then choice number 2 would be applicable if certain conditions were met. I would seriously look within me and decide what i wanted (love, relationship) and what do i get (friendship) put them on the scale and see where the scale turns. If it turns towards love then i would most probably try to cut some bridges down and distant myself at a point where noone would be hurt (even if this means total allienation). Because lets face it when you are turned down, it's like a glue you want it more. If it tends towards friendship and my feelings for her are satisfied with this solution then by all means stay and be the best friend she could ever have.
Anyway i have been in a similar situation and because this woman meant not much to me as a friend i just cut off all communications. It is better this way because i liked her a lot as a woman but not that much as a friend. And since it would hurt both to continue an ackward situation i decided to end it.

Sex? I'm talking about Love Eze. Love does not equal sex. The two are closely related, but not the same. Love is far more than just sex.

If you need to have sex like a normal personI'm not sure wether that's supposed to be an insult or not. I don't want to pick someone up just so I can have sex with them. I'm sure I could, but I don't want to. I find sex to be something very special, something I only wish to do with that person I love with all my heart. I don't think it's something I wish to share with someone of whom I don't even her first name. :rolleyes: I'm sure it can be nice with anyone. However, sex can be (and as I see it, is) more than merely lust.

And actually, I question your experience on the whole matter. Having an opinion is easy, but have you formed your opinion from the real thing, or is it merely prejudice?

Anyway, you may see it as merely infatuation or not, I stand by my point. One day Eze... One day. :grin:

@Foradasthar: I know of a lot of people who've been together for several decades and are still really happy together. Maybe they don't have 'the perfect partner', but they sure do have the next best thing. Now I doubt that the people I know are that much luckier than the rest of the entire world, so my guess is that things aren't as grim as you might see them. I just came out of a very painfull relationship, and how do I view love now? Love can be the best thing ever when it goes right, or the worst thing ever when it goes wrong. When it goes bad, I hate love. When it goes right, it's bliss. Which brings me to the following quote:

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." -- Theodore Roosevelt.

That sums up my stance on love.

And with that, it's enough thread highjacking from my end. :) (If people wish to continue this discussion, perhaps we best make a seperate thread for it? Tal?)

[ October 20, 2003, 20:37: Message edited by: Faragon ]

Alright, now this is not me. I'm the bookworm knife-obsessed martial arts freak overaged virgin who has never even held a girl's hand before! :D :D :p (No, I'm not gay, though ;) )

But I know the both of them quite well, so I can provide a few details:

This has been going on for about 5 years. Yes, she does truly regard him as a very close friend and no, she has no inkling of his true intentions.

She already has a boyfriend that treats her very well. He has given up on all other girls except her.

Hmm. Do go on, folks. This is an interesting topic indeed.

@Eze: who needs love when you have....knives!! (Or lightsabers or katanas...yes, I'm a bad influence on kids...) :D :D

But seriously, your perspective might change as the years pass. (Might, mind you...) So it's best to keep an open mind.

Well, his lack of being able to move on at all in option 2 kind of makes that one a bad option. He can't go on being her friend, clinging to a false hope forever. Eventually he'll probably get out of it, but it could take a while.

I'd say let him continue the friendship, but make sure he realizes that she's in a happy relationship and shows no romantic interest. He needs to acknowledge this, and work actively on getting over her. It might be good if they somewhat lessen the intensity of their contact, so that he isn't constantly reminded of her. Get him to focus on other things, like school or other friends.

Wether informing her of his feelings is a good idea really depends on what kind of person she is and how she would react to that.

My 2 cents.

A fair quote there Faragon. And I would like to agree. But every animal will eventually learn that fire burns. I do not care much for 'fame' for the lack of a better word, and as that is the case, then I consider a grey life far better than one filled with grief and misery.

Besides, it's only one type of a failure. No need to make it big enough to consume all my successes as well. People are made for different things, afterall.

Some things are not meant to be. Where I might not like it, I know I must accept it. What honour would I have if I didn't understand at least that? If it was a calculation to make, then ok. If it was a road to run, fine. If it was any specific achievement that only required thinking and doing, then I'd be in on it. But since it's nothing more but luck and chemistry that depends on random chaotic things, which has always worked against me in all areas of my life, then forget it.

I am done giving what I cannot receive. And I regret I have even said this much. But as said, all of humanity is severely flawed.

Foradasthar, I see your point, and agree with you to a certain level. However, despite the painful and dissapointing experiences I have had in my past, I know that it needn't always be that way. Maybe love and I will get along sometime, maybe we won't. But untill I know for sure which it's going to be, I'll keep my hands far enough from the fire not to get burnt, but close enough to still feel the warmth. :)

On a side note vis-a-vis Foradasthar, love does not have to receive to be fulfilled in giving. If it was really love that Shura's friend had for this girl, then it would be her happiness he was concerned with, not his own. That's what makes real love a rare thing in these modern days; it's not easy to truly put someone else's welfare above your own.

Regarding Shura's poser, I've been on the other end of it, actually. I had a girl inform me after three or so years of friendship that she had been strongly attracted to me for quite some time, and had been hoping for something more. But she finally realized that I had nothing more than friendly feelings for her, and wondered if we should break contact. But we discussed things openly and honestly, and after much thinking (and prayer!) decided to stay in touch. Today, a year and a half later, she is still one of my best friends, and I think we are the closer for what we have been through. So if what he has is the genuine article, then I say, stick with it. However, if her lack of romance is hurting him, then he needs to get some distance until he gets his head on straight until he can be around her without feeling pangs of "unrequited love" -- for what hurts him will end up hurting her as well.

If I put myself in your friend's shoes, I will go for option 2 the intelligent and doing the right thing one(I had the same experience before). One more friend is always better than one less by my thinking. The girl whom I love is still my friend. Anyway, I feel better this way, as although I cannot have her love as a lover, I still have her love as a friend. And who knows, thing may change, and maybe your friend can get his chance next time? Your friend will still have to make his own choice, as all that any of us can give are only advises, not decisions.

I have come to a conclusion fro m my experience and talking with Eze that seeing as "love" is sucha fleeting, if not nonexistant concept, "friends with benefits" is the best thing one can aspire to.

Or words to thjat effect... I am not TOO Offtopic, hmm?

You really must stop thinking of love as an attraction to someone else, you couldn't really be much further from the mark there. I suggest that you broach such an obscure (yet regrettably common) interpretation in the post started by Dragonfly but you may have been deceived (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000511).

My apologies, Arabwel, I did not know you had done this allready.

[ October 22, 2003, 10:04: Message edited by: Manus ]

Well it seems that here love and lust is a little mixed up.
Anyway, I feel better this way, as although I cannot have her love as a lover, I still have her love as a friend. And who knows, thing may change, and maybe your friend can get his chance next time? You seem to me a little contradictional here. Are you seeing your friend as a friend only or as a potential girlfriend too? Because if you are in the latter situation look well inside you and tell me how would you feel if you one day realised that all the effort you have put in this relationship to last, was in vain because from her side never existed such a thought. I have been through this situation and i tell you that the friendship with that woman died so fast i could not believe the fact i had spent so much effort or time on such a failure.