Well, it seems that people have a lot to say about love but we haven't had a debate specifically on it so I thought I'd put it out on the board.

What is love? Do you love? Can you love?

*cough* Allow me to be the first to retort before we are flooded by denials, by certain members who's views are allready widely known.

Travelling to distant past we glimpse sight of a forum post on these very boards entitled "Riddle Time!" if we glance at the sixth page we shall know doubt be drawn to this charming illustration of opposition, by one of our most faithful discouragers. But Alack! there seems to be some discrepency! Could our wandering minstrel of nihilistic pessimism, that stalwart bastion of cold rebuttle, that wakizashi-weilding heroine of the emotionless void, have betrayed her darkest secrets for all to harken unto, to see her bear her innermost passions in a flitting bout of self-destruction?

Ahh, allow me to reveal myself before you are torn asunder by axious anticpation, as you search the very morasses of your souls for this intrepid betrayl!

You can make me burn
Or I can make you burn
Or, more properly, I can quench your fire. Love?Ahh what this? who would have uttered such a thought nigh fore a single day had past! Who could have responded thusly, pre-empting any other attempt at a solution to such a diabolical turn of phrase!?

Could it be that chivalrous Chevalier? The seeker of passion both high and low, of it's peaks and very pits, our love stricken Faragon? The ever dichotomous bladesman, one who both refutes such folly, yet falls deepest of all for those chaste and pure, the alluring Grace, that love-befounded Shura? NAY! Twas none other than the Sorcerer's own dark crusader! The very one championing the fight for release from such an awful binding, yet heavenly becoming fate!

Who is it who so burns with desire? who so thirsts for what she most of all repells, knowing that only then shall her wanting never be fulfilled, yet so wants to quench herself from it's alluring pull?

Hmm?

Thrust yourself into the bowels of Love o' drunken one! Drunken with LOVE I say! WE KNOW the truth of your inner plight, we know your questing is the very reason you so protest! I thinketh ye protesteth too much fair one! She has only to release her frail facade and cry Yes! I Love! oh How I seek it! O how I relish it! Yes!

But nay.

She hides, and denies, and cries uselessly against us, when we only speak of what lies within her own beating heart!

You only decieve yourself, we shall but wait for that day, but with knowing smiles thrust upon our quirking lips we shall wait.

Ahh! it is too much to bear! I feel I must retire, for the swoon of prophecy has taken it's awful, fearful toll upon me. Do not hate me young one, I but speak what is not spoken, yet is shared in hearts by all! Aye! even by your very own! :love: :angel:

*appalause*

Comngratulations. :p

Also, my coinbdoolences to you before certain "someone" decides to flambé you.

My personal opinion, like I stated in the other thread, is that love itself is, as an idea, fleeting and intangible and so forth and so forth. Best one can hope for is "friends with benefits", a commitment on its own.

Or words to that effect anyway.

Love can be for many things, not just another person. You can have love for your pet dog, you could love taking walks along the beach, you might love icecream. There are many different types of love and they must exsist. Everyone can love and everyone should.

Arabwel, Aye, I too think that love as an idea is fleeting and intangible, and this is because most people try to call many things love that are in fact, not.

It is not the physical attraction to another, it is not the emotional attachment or dependence that is evoked, it is not a psychological obsession and it is not sexual gratification.

The Notion of "friends with benefits" suggests a very materialistic, personal-orientated view of the world. I see no difference between one who beleives such a statement to one who murders a man for his shoes. Both are driven only by their own thoughts of physical comfort and material attainment. An act is only an expression of a thought.

I however do not think you truly believe what you say. Far be it for me to suggest such a thing excepting the fact that it is an extremely common view spoken, if not truly held, by young people the world over. Unfortunately most do not grow through this stage for many years. It is made worse by the common occurence of these self same folk to develop such strong feelings for others in such a small amount of time, and to call such things love. In a teenager it is understandable. In a fool appearing on Jerry Springer it is sorrowful. This is why I speak so.

I do understand why you say such a thing, and have such strong convictions of its non-existence, having said those things myself when I was closer to your age.

I know this so far has probably seemed offensive but I do not speak with anger, I only rebuke what you say so strongly for I fear that it is a dangerous route to travel upon, beleive me when I say I know almost exactly where you are coming from in saying such a thing.

Love in fact does not involve any person but you. It is a connection between yourself and the universe, it is the blossoming of wisdom, compassion, understanding. It is neither physical, mental, or emotional, but is felt in all three ways because it super-cedes every one, and is felt, created, observed within each. It is something truer to what you really are. It is intelligent light, it is living fire, it is the stuff of spirit. It is sorrow and it is joy, it is none of these things because it is all of them.

It is a direct experience of the universe, an experiential form of life itself, it is inner bliss.

I do not expect you to accept or understand this, I only ask that you consider love as exactly what you said. Intangible. It can not be quantitatively measured divided or applied. It is the intrinsic knowing of something's beauty and worth, and it is the understanding of that thing within itself, for it is in fact, merely a reflection of yourself, all things are but another part of each other. It can be shared with everything, even something you hate you will in time also love.

Is it any wonder that this develops when you feel attraction and compassion towards someone, when you have such a level of understanding for them, when you are in constant contact with that person, and all that they emanate? Once the baser forms unite, and a symbiosis of your own mental, physical, and emotional perceptions are formed, focused, there is little else for you to progress towards. But this is far from the limitation of the thing. I have tried vainly thrice to explain what needs to occur, but could not form the words correctly. People look from within without, then push the without within. You must go from without within then from within expand without.

With a loved one the barriers between such have been ceased, no form of lower understanding is required, it is a higher understanding, beyond acceptance, to an active appreciation, regardless of all else.

Love is this, by denying it you deny yourself.

I despise Platon. Love is a physical reaction caused by physical attraction and is best remedied by close phyisical presence resulting in kinetic and thermal energy. Otherwise, It would just be too cold.

...driven only by their own thoughts of physical comfort and material attainmentI disagree. I see that happening in cases when you just pick someon up for a quick rioll in the hay, but the whole point of "friends with benefits" is that you are with someone you know, have an attachment to, trust... and won't be bringing any messy emotions into play.

Although, what you say is probably true.... I can imagine it being true. (Right now is a bad time for me to talk about love...) I know that to be able to feel something like that has to be amazing.... I can remember, yes, fleeting glimpses of such things in dreams and then waking up to the bitter world. I remember feeling such things, if to a lesser degree (so-called fascination...) and the bitter feeling when it was worthless in the end...

Excuse me. I'll just go sulk in the corner.

Edit: found more to say. Now, I can admit that "love" does exist, the kind of love one has for a parent or for a sibling or a good friend, or one's dog or for writing... and yet, by my "definition" that is not love. I merely have no better word for it.

But to be clearer, let's just say that my belief in ROMANTIC love is... akin to a snowball's chances in Hell.

Love, what it should be, how it is described in books and poems, how it appears in our dreams, is something far greater than anything else. It is life, purpose, the greatest bliss.

But in reality, love is there to justify cheating. To justify one's lack of ability to control one's own hormones and reason. A synonym to infatuation, mental weakness, and idiocy. It is a word used to counter another word: responsibility. Too often, love is but a lie that is used by millions and millions of people to make their lives easier.

Because ultimately love is not physical, nor emotional. Because it can be onesided or exist between two different people. Because it can remain hidden and never be seen. And because when you know it is there, it is not, or vice versa. Because all of this, all love can be is a matter of opinion and hope. Nothing more, nothing less. Those who believe in it, can love. Those who do not, cannot. Still, sometimes believing in a lie can make you happy by clouding your eyes from the rather cruel truth. Unfortunately not all have that choice.

Speaking of "love" is essentially the same as speaking of "god" or afterlife. In every respect.

Love doesn't exist. Or if it exists, it's crap and a way for people to play idiots.

I don't love anything nor will ever.

And no, I can't love.

But as I have a normal sexdrive (or will be having one in few years) I definitely have to sleep with somebody. What in itself doesn't involve love, because that's is an idiocy.

So, put me into the Foradasthar camp.

*takes out lightsaber and murders Manus*

BTW, it's a katana, not a wakizashi.

/me rolleyes

Eze I suspect you are going to be the neighbourhood cat-lady when you grow up.

Well, here I have to agree with both Foradsthar and Arabwel in the obvious lack, and blatant misuse of the word love in so many romantic situations. It is the sad truth, that it is often used only as Yago has described.

But I still assert that love can exist between a couple, and often does to some extent, but is clouded by, as you have all pointed out, infatuation, emotional clouds, and undisciplined hormones and desires.

Love is on terms with responcibility, it is the embodiment for your responcibilty for everything around you. It saddens me profusely that people will abuse such a notion.

Foradsther you are right in what else you say as well. Many people are happier deluding themselves with lies than to admit the truth. It is like speaking of god, in that many do not believe in it because they are misinformed, and the shocking majority of those who say they do, believe only in a horrid twisted lie, personalised to suit their own needs.

Arabwel, I hope you find your peace soon, this world can be bitter, bitter.

I have left most things behind me, as a consequence, those I knew have left me behind. But I understand now that they must, this is their part to play, as mine is a part I choose to play, for we can truly only find fault in the actions of ourselves, while trying to show others a better way.

I have little faith left for this place, its stark beauty admist so much pain, and indeed, my hope, is what keeps me sane with the knowledge that things are truly wonderful if you will appreciate them for what they are, that in the end all will be well. Some may say I delude myself, but I know what I felt before was the illusion. Ignorance can be bliss. Sometimes I wish that I still slept blindly, content with the little knowledge I actually contained and happy to amuse myself in any manner I saw fit.

It can be a lonely path, but experience has shown me that what you truly need shall be given to you in its time. Any time I begin to doubt myself, something happens, I meet another who is the same, and I am reassured. Knowing what I do now, I would not go back, even if I could.

That moment of clarity when you truly awake is love, like the sun shining on every aspect of yourself, the light emanating from inside you, and warming your every, your every all. It is a difficult thing to put in words, but I have never known better moments in my life.

Eze, you do not fool any of us :) (and wakizashi sounds better with weilding). I forgive you for my murder, that too is required by love, which for me has long left the realm of which you speak. :)

I believe in love -- it's not about sex, though sex can be an expression of love. It's about wanting to be with a person and caring for them no matter what they do. It's about helping that person through their trials just because you want to see them happy, not because you want something in return. It's about being willing to make personal sacrifices so their lives can be better.

There's a million things that make up love. But it does exist, and all the cynics in the world can't change it's existence.

Ah.. love! It's the greatest thing I ever learned (...someone finish this quote)

Love is the base of a perfect world and the highest or even better, only requirement of a relation.

Eze: IIRC, you're 13 years old and already you create a wall of pessimism around your life that won't let love inside. If you'd be a bit more open, less egoistic you might experience love and I bet you'd like it.

No offense ment, of course! ;)

Love is a great thing, what life is all about, though when it goes bad it's incredibly painful. Losing someone you love - even a pet - can be devastating. But I would rather spend my time loving and deal with the inevitable pain when it comes than be a total chickensh*t and push the world away. That's not what life is about. The good in love FAR outweighs the bad.

@ Eze

*pats Eze's head* There there, child. You'll grow out of that eventually. Until then, continue trying to convince the world you have a heart of stone. Someone may believe you eventually. And, ironically enough, he may just love you for it. ;)

Love is giving up almost every dream you've ever had to devote your life & your every action to someone else, in the hope that you'll gain their approval. Love is doing the afore mentioned for 15 years only to find out that, that person could care less (about you) and has decided that she no longer loves you. :cry:

See, what I am talking about? You can see the people screwed because they thought that love is true. :/

DR:And how could a guy love me, because I have a heart of stone? My response to a guy is 'Sod off' and a knee in the privates if he doesn't take the hint. :D ´

Greenlion: *hugs* Just start enjoying your life without her and you'll realize that you don't care finally.

Manus: I am not denying myself, I am just saying that love isn't worth it, even if it does exist.

Erebus: Animals are annoying. I am gonna be the sod-off person, when I grow up.

Nuhn: Realism. And egoism is good. It helps you survive without any emotional scars. Better than being open and getting exploited.

I have said it on the religion, abortion and homosexuality issues and I will say it here too.

I WILL NOT BUDGE. Clear?

Love is crap, what screws your life.

Love is a choice. It is an action of self, rooted in a spirit of sacrifice and giving. It is not a phenomona, an entity, a force of nature, an evil spirit, a good feeling, lust, desire, a spring day, friendship, companionship or any of the other elusive intangibles that you associate with it. One can not be through with love unless they are through with themself. Love isn't something that happens to you or comes to you, it is something that originates within you, that you do for yourself. You will never find it if you look for it any further away than within your own soul.

@ Eze:
a knee in the privates Oohh, add a whip and high heel boots, and hurt me, baby! :love:

Thank you splunge for dropping the level of this thread below the waistline. I am sure that given the feelings that Eze has expressed, she will be thrilled by your response.

*Shura gets a nagging suspicion that he is being slowly edged out as the resident katana-wielding maniac* :(

Sigh. The tides come and go, eh. Prouda you, girl.

*Pats Eze's head and gives her more lightsaber batteries before going off to the psycho-killer retirement home*

Now, regarding 'love'
I am sure it exists. I've seen it have too many profound effects on those around me. It is a foreign concept to me, however. I cannot love. I can only favor. For eg, the pretty girl that addresses me courteously will get at least an equally courteous treatment from me. The smelly bum who yells at me will get a sharp cutting instrument up one of his bodily orifices.

Perhaps it's because I have psychotic tendencis and empathic deficiencies.

Still, all the best to those that can love. With the capacity for greater joy comes the potential for greater hurt, I guess.

In conclusion: it exists, surely. Not for me, but I'm more than content with my books, writing and video games.

Have an excellent time, lovers!

Hi everybody,

During my life I went through all the opinions that were posted on this thread.
(Applause to Manus for his eloquence.)
I bow to Eze and Arabwel for their stand. For 20 some years I shared those beliefs.
Then something happened.
I won’t pretend that it was (or is) easy. It’s certainly not perfect like in poems or books (fairy tales and whatnot). But the fact is that I changed. Changed for good or bad? I don’t know and I don’t care. I won’t try to argue with you, I won’t tell you my experiences. I won’t even hope for you to find someone to fall in love to change you. You don’t want that. And that’s ok.
But as far as I’m concerned, change is good…
:)

Okay, I know I'm going to get more than enough flak for this, but I believe that we as humans are capable if emotion, even if we put up masks - or walls - of hatred, bitterness, or stone.

I believe that love is an emotion. I just don't think it's a term you can pull out of the air and be satisfied with.

To keep it as short as possible, I'll say that since we can't completely reject our humanity, we can't completely reject the idea of love. something I believe transcends our bodily and linguistic capabilities.

Finally, let me be cynical like others for just a moment. Love is bit like trust. A wise man (wiser than I expected, as he was African-American, and dressed in "ghetto" clothing) said that to have trust, you gots to give trust, know what I'm sayin'? I think that to have love from other people, you have to give love. Some people that I know (personally or otherwise) believe that in order to be "cool" or "mysterious" or whatever the image is, things like love, trust, and emotion can't be used. Tch.

Well, I'm not feeling very eloquent again today but I'll try

Love, to me, is an intense longing just to be near that special someone, be it your child(ren) or wife/husband or girlfriend/boyfriend or even just a friend.

It is something that constantly changes and grows, I don't mean changing focus (though some of us know from personal experience that it does happen), just, I don't know, changing. Had to explain what I mean.

It never completely goes away, even if things happen that scare us to death, though it may lessen. I guess that's what I meant by 'changing' - though I hate my ex with a passion for what she's doing to my son and I, I still have a form of love for her, simply for the fact that she carried and gave life to my son. It never dies.

TBC...

Quote:
________________________________________________
Love in fact does not involve any person but you. It is a connection between yourself and the universe, it is the blossoming of wisdom, compassion, understanding
________________________________________________

I like your description Manus.

Eze - I started this topic because of you. As far as here and now goes, you are right. Love does not exist - for you.

My opinion is that Love, whether it connects us to the universe or hurts like hell, is something that gives us a reason to do things. Without love we might as well be robots.

What kind of love are we talking about? There are many kinds of love, parental, religious etc.

Obviously the romantic love 'love'. Certainly I believe in love between friends and family, I feel that love for many people, and I at least like to think they do for me as well.

I have further meaning to impart, but no words I know to use for speaking my mind. So I'll just say the following:

I once knew someone who was asked what he looked for in a relationship. After some thinking, he said: "I guess all it needs is that the two of us just want to be together."

That's it. All of it.

The most important things in life are usually very simple by heart.

I don't know how many months passed before I truly understood the meaning of what I'd said. That's when I also realised that most people aren't really looking for what they think. But does that information help me? Now I see more clearly than ever, that love really is a mathematical impossibility.

*Runs in and unleashes his Quote Demons*

'A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.'
No idea who said it, but it is the simple truth.

And was it not you, Ara, who said that reality is inside ones head? Well love comes into that I suppose, if it is in your reality, it exists, though your reality may be different from someone elses.

Me, I'll take a Shura view of things. He can see both sides (from where I'm standing it looks like it anyway ;) )

It was Oscar Wilde who said that.

I find it amusing that seasoned teenagers declare love doesn't exist only perhaps because till now all tickling in their belly was due to excessive consumption of beans, or whatever ... :evil:

Well, I admit that my current cynicism just might be the result of a thing called "rebound"... I thought I knew of love... now I know only bitterness. Well, uyntil I get inenely fascinated again, i think. Or a miracle occurs. or something like that.

Bah. I make no sense.

Age is often a good base for arguments such as this. However, it often goes too far into the side of egoism. Some things do not change when people get older. In fact, not nearly as many things do as people seem to think.

Then again, I can understand that a 70-yearold might feel he has the right to claim that a 35-yearold knows nothing about anything, aside from computers perhaps. :) However, who does know?

Again I wrote a novel, twice. To make it short: More often than not, even a 14 yearold has a pretty good idea of what their life is going to be like. They are in a state of permanent emotional stress and change, of course, but they have the intelligence required to understand the obvious. I did, many of my friends did. And although I'm just a 22 yearold seasoned teenager, I think it's a good time to say now that I know those adults who promised changes and improvement when I was 14, were wrong. Not for the first time.

Nothing has changed. Strength and resolve have come. Cruelty even, to stand what must be faced. But the people are always the same inside. The world still works the same way. What this has to do with love, I have little idea.

Well, the amount of cynisim might equal the amount of idealism you had before you crashed your head into a wall.

As for wisdom. I do not think it is acquired by age alone.

Still, I am a proud mammal. I think the way human was build makes them search relationships. This has the possibilty to give great joy. The breaking up or ending of this relationships on the other hand can lead to a nearly unbearable amount of pain.

Dragonfly:I know love doesn't exist for me, but I can't see my friends and relatives hurt because of that idiocy.

See, I care about them a bit, but not love them.

Not loving doesn't make us robots. I don't love, but I still do feel other things, so no, not being in love doesn't make people robots.

Splunge: When hell freezes over and Finland wins the Eurovision contest. :rolleyes:

Shura: Thanks. I will honor your legacy, Shura the Fourteenth (or was it?). :D

Aldazar: Condolences, man. May you get over her someway.

And before somebody wonders, there hasn't been any stuff of me being in love with some guy and getting rejected. I am too smart for that and will know what not to pick up from my friend, who was in love 3 years.

And before somebody wonders, there hasn't been any stuff of me being in love with some guy and getting rejected now is that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

*sees rumours flying*

Better than being open and getting exploited there hasn't been any stuff of me being in love with some guy and getting rejected Actually, these are rather insightful comments. Eze, it appears to me that, rather than not being able to love, you are instead afraid of allowing yourself to love. Perhaps a result of your friend, perhaps a result of other events in your life, or perhaps the result of general insecurity, but you seem to be building a wall to protect yourself from rejection. You will, of course, probably say that I am full of crap (if you bother to say anything at all), but that’s how I see it. (I also find it interesting taht you dismiss the possibility that you will ever fall in love, but you somehow know that you will have a normal sex drive.) All I have to say is that love does exist, and calling people who allow themselves to love ‘idiots’ is merely an indication of the height of your wall. I only hope that you meet someone who sees through your facade and is willing to try to tear the wall down.

I agree with Manus at this subject allthough i want to add that love between two people IMHO exists when one gives without waiting (or secretly wishing) for gains of any kind.
Ah.. love! It's the greatest thing I ever learned (...someone finish this quote)
...The hard way
We can only understand love through hardships and pain i fear. Not that love does exists only through these feelings but during these sentimental situations that stress us we are really able to see and understand this feeling. Allthough sometimes someone may exploit this vulerability.
I know love doesn't exist for me, but I can't see my friends and relatives hurt because of that idiocy.
Well Eze i would love to see the day you will be in the late teens and fell in love.
To try to prevent this from happening is impossible and the way you close yourself in your world, makes me sad because the day this world shatters around you will be the hardest day of your life.

'Tis Ara behind Eze's nick for one last time...

now is that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
I am pretty freaking sure that Eze is serious of what she says. She won't budge.

She just has to look at me to see what the whole "unrequited love" business does. Trust me on this one.

And no, not just you... (you know who you are...)

I will quitre likely dig up this toppic up later... much later... when I am not on a down/rebounfd phase.

What is love?A basic set of equations, satisfied? There's also the loving of thy neighbour etc.

Do you love?No. Not in the romantic sense. I mean... oh well, wrong word. I do have some friendships that are a little bit romantic, so maybe not in 'that' context?

Can you love?I doubt it. I tend to have the love thy neighbour attitude, though. On some days more in deeds than in words ;)

Just to clarify something from my last post, and not by way of having a go at Eze for the comment made in relation to what I posted, I don't actually LOVE my ex so much, I guess it's more that I thank and admire her. I mean, such a wonderful son coming from such a demon-spawn woman means that somewhere in that poison pit that is her mind, there must be something remotely human I guess. The only reason I used the 'L' word is that I read somewhere that you cannot hate someone that you never (don't?) love so I guess that in some form or other I do have a type of love for her.

But actually, I find it very hard to seriously open my heart to anyone, as a result of my fatherless childhood.

Once again, my time is up, TBC...soon.

Heck, I love my ex, no question. She has so many amazing qualities. Like anyone else, she has some flaws, too, but who doesn't? I've done things with her and shared things with her and that love will never die. That doesn't mean that sometimes I won't be saddened by her actions, or that I won't be mad enough to spit nails, but the love will always be there, even if the time comes that I end up with someone else.

Well, yeah, as I was saying before my time ran out the other day, as a resuly of growing up without a male role model around, and feeling rejected and abandoned (as many in the same situation probably would) I have a very hard time opening myself up to someone, opening my heart to love I guess you could say. Seriously anyway. The physical attraction has never been a problem for me as far as not being able to feel it, in fact I probably feel it a lot more than I should, for more women than I should but I'm trying to deal with that.

Oh ****, wouldn't you know it, my time is up again. I'll try to get a post here done in one sitting soon.

Love.... It can oft be confused as 'lust.' In which case, the person has not truely experienced love. You can also say you 'love' animals, or little Toto or Fluffy, you can say you love walks on the beach.... but they aren't, at the risk of sounding cliche, true love. That is something not everyone experiences... because to experience it you also need to be loved, truely loved, in return. True love is something you can never really understand, and possibly never really feel.

But if you can find something really close that makes you happy and safe for the rest of your life... that's good too. :p

No I tend to disagree here. I feel you do not need to be anything in return in order to love something, and it is your own love that you experience, not theirs.

As was pointed out earlier, love is the giving of yourself freely, A sacrifice with no expectation for returns.

But the thing is, you don't feel the need for anything to be returned. That is Love.

My applause to you Manus, I have not heard one speak so eloquently and honestly, in quite some time.

I find it strange that I should even respond to this topic, being that I am about to be divorced from my one true love, and first "everything". However, I feel compeled to do so, even if I cannot explain it.

If there is one thing I have learned in life so far, it is that love cannot conquer everything. If it could, this world and life as most of us know it, would be completely different. So do not be fooled by the romantic fairytales once told to you as a child.

Love, has many faces, and is given or shown, in many different ways. Love, has many different definitions and intrict levels to it, complex enough that most will never know it in its entirety. Most, will only experience pieces of it, over time and in their own way.

Who knows exactly what the definition of love is? Or which version given, is the most correct? I cannot say myself, I can only tell you what I believe is the most true defintion. And that is this:

Love is the most unselfish act known to man kind. It is the giving of ones mind (i.e. the inner most sharing of thoughts and ideas), body (i.e. physical expression), and soul (i.e. emotions) completely and without reservation.

It is kind, gentle, and without an ego.

It is often overwhelming, and most often than not, it goes hand in hand with pain.

It is a burning desire to protect, without thought of oneself, to the point that you would exchange your own life.

It is an unexpressable vulnerability.

It can be beautiful and ugly.

It can fill you with such intense joy and happiness that you did not think was possbile, and it can tear you apart inside until you wished that you would die so as to rid yourself of it.

And for some....it has hurt them more than it has brought them joy and happiness.....and that is why they may say it does not exists....or that they are not capable of giving or recieving it.

That being said, I do believe love exists, and that everyone is capable of giving or recieving it on some level. I believe that knowing true love, is worth any negative that comes with it, and that it is the greatest gift that can ever be bestowed on you, or that you can bestow on someone else.

To be truely and completely loved by another person is, whether it is as a friend, or as a lover, it is the most magical experience one can have. It should never be taken lightly, or for granite.

IMO, you want true, real love? Get a dog.

Dogs will love you unconditionally in almost every case except, I guess, for some cases of extreme abuse where it turns to fear.

The only living creatures I have encountered that love unconditionally are dogs.
But maybe I just haven't opened mysel to the right people. I just can't bring myself to risk rejection and abandonment ever since my father walked out on us 23 years or so ago. I rush blindly into relationships that either end up abusive (either way - I emotionally abuse or I get abused one way or another, I NEVER physically abuse though) or when things get good I run screaming the other way.

I still say though, get a dog. Just don't get too attached because one day they may just up and die on you.

** woo hoo! I actually finished a post in one sitting! ** :roll: :spin: :hahaerr: :thumb:

Satiana, thank you for sharing. Sorry to hear about you're present anguish. Hang in there.

[ November 03, 2003, 23:17: Message edited by: Hacken Slash ]

Love is chemical reactions in your brain... nothing more.

IMHO, love needs some reciprocation to survive. Otherwise, it will die on change its nature. Sure, some bits will always remain. With exes it's not that hard to explain. You love memories or you love the persons they were... or appeared to be. Even if you realise that's stupid, it still remains. Even if you don't want to be with the person. Right. For example, I realise there are several female friends of mine, my feelings to whom can't be contained within friendship, not even the almost_sister stuff, and attraction. Works both ways, so I can't use the confident explanation of possible illness on my part. Another confident explanation relying on ex thing won't do, since actually none is a real ex.

However, for some reasons life went as it did and things look as they do. I'm not a hypocrite, I don't bother lying. I still don't have any 'such' plans or even intentions. Nor would I even want to be with any of them and even if something close to a relationship would start, it would rely primarily on friendship. Actually not a bad idea etc, wonder if I won't eventually end up that way (which is taken as granted by all possible spectators and passers by who have some faith in their senses - 'oh how well you're matched, how many YEARS have you been together', 'you're married, aren't you' and that sort of stuff), but there's no such thing here as passion, determination, desperation. It's been described as morbid friendship, but then there's no generic 'that' stuff. More like natural flow of events sprung by less than natural complications of less than normal lives.

What I'm going to say by this, is that what I've just said is likely to happen when you don't start a relationship with the person. You only really get love in a relationship. Exceptions exist but are rare. They're either the rare exceptions that prove the general rule, or they're the true love in which we don't really believe. My personal view is: just a specific flow of events... cause and result, joint outcome of a myriad of situations actually decided on by just a few seconds worth of a moment at one very specific time. While technically perfectly non-accidental, this is perfectly accidental from our point of view.

I cried after Titanic. I'd say my sense of "love" is around there, somewhere. It's all those hormones and lust that are intertwined with it that makes people question the structure.

It's amazing how many people in this world cannot bring themselves to accept pleasure, or just don't know how to.

The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war? :1eye: