I was having an interesting conversation with someone this morning and we were talking about patriosm and this thought came to my mind.

Does patriosm to one's country, religion, culture, etc, supersede one's patriosm to humanity?

[ November 26, 2003, 15:42: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

"Patriotistm" to humanity? I can see loyalty to humanity but doesn't patriotism specifically imply a certain brand of loyalty to one's country? In any case, I think loyalty to humanity and the environment should always come first. "Patriotism" is only a virtue if your country happens to be right, and it's really not much more than pride in belonging.

Patriotism is the tool that let leaders blind people. Without patriotism it would be very hard for leaders to fool their population into going into any conflict. Patriotism is what made and makes it possible for governments to fool young men and women to throw their lives away for the whims of the powerful while the common man cherises the powerful for stealing the lives of their children and loved ones. Patriotism is what made it possible in the first place for deluded leaders to wage the world wars in the past and it is what fuels and blinds people all over the world to this day. Without patriotism I dont think an 18 year old Israeli boy would be able to shoot down Palestinian children, without patriotism I dont a Palestinian student would sacrifice his life to blow up a busload of women and children, without patriotism I dont think American farmboys would be willing to die in a far away country for something they neither understands nor care about, without patriotism I dont think Iraqi insurgents would blow up their own people in the name of that very same people, without patriotism I dont think Russian soldiers would be able to torture Chechnian rebels, without patriotism I dont think young Irish lads would be able to blow up a coffeeshop in Belfast, without patriotism I dont think the Indian and Pakistani people would be willing to let their countries stand on the border of nuclear devastation. I can go on like this forever but I think you get the picture.

You're mistaking patriotism with a truckload of other, more or less unrelated things.

Here are a couple of quotes on patriotism to think about, both from Mark Twain:

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may.

and another, more important one that very, very few people who think of themselves as patriots are able to grasp:

The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I do not think mistake patriotism for a truckload of others, true, patriotism isnt the sole reason for those people doing what they do but it is a large part of the reason.
T
hat first quote I think in a way illustrates one reason why patriotism is such a dangerous and negative thing with its talk about traitors to ones country, what obligation do a person really have to any country or nation? Countries are just lines on a map and false ideas planted into peoples minds and then exploited by the leadership.

The second quote is a nice comment on what a government should be and in a way it points to how patriotism is a detrimental feeling for a society.

what does being a patriot mean?

patriosm to one's country, religion, culture, etc from that point of view and with my general idea of a patriot being a kinda proud/fanatical rebel dude, I find it hard to consider patriotism any better than racism or other kinds of discriminations.

When did the word and originate, and in what context?

Patriotism, like it or not, is part of human nature. We identify ourselves as citizens of our countries in the same way that we identify ourselves as citizens of our towns, alumni of our old schools and universities and supporters of our favourite football team. You may not know personally the great majority of your fellow citizens, but you're a lot closer to them in every way than you are to people from other countries. I distrust those who are always disparaging their country - I wonder what it is they feel they have to prove. The Welsh have a saying:
"Cas gwr na charo'r wlad a'i maco"
which means:
"Hateful the man who does not love the land that raised him".

It is an error to believe, as Joaquin does, that our rulers can somehow use the power of patriotism to mesmerize us and force us to act in ways that we don't really want to. In democratic countries we reach views independently of our elected representatives. A person can hold views different to your own without being either corrupt or deluded. It is patronizing and insulting to think otherwise. In fact, it's worse than patronizing since the belief that people cannot honestly come by different opinions is the very basis of totalitarianism.

Firstly sorry for the misunderstanding surrounding the use of my word "patriotism" but it was the only word I thought was appicable to what I was trying to convey.

Say for instance, a suicide bomber goes into a shopping centre with the knowledge that he is going to blow up everybody and lets say a hundred inocent people. Where did humanity fit in with all of that when he knew he was going to blow up a hundred innocent people? Is he therefore not a traitor to his fellow man and hence a traitor to humanity?

"Patriotistm" to humanity? I can see loyalty to humanity but doesn't patriotism specifically imply a certain brand of loyalty to one's country? Patriotism implies a certain brand of loyalty to a country yes but can't we consider humanity as living in its own country or nation. After all we all live on Earth. As to a certain brand of loyalty, we all have loyalty to our fellow human beings in the sense that we shall not kill, not steal, etc.

what obligation do a person really have to any country or nation? Indeed what obligation does a person have to a country. I'm sure we all have an obligation to humanity by obeying all the traditional rules (e.g. do not kill, do not steal, do not discriminate, etc).

Where did humanity fit in with all of that when he knew he was going to blow up a hundred innocent people? What if the hundred people were possessed by the devil and if not blowing them up, would let the minions of evil taint even more pure souls?

You need to expand your perspective beyond your own. Personally I dont think that one who knew he was about to kill hundred innocent people would do it UNLESS he felt forced to do it, be it to make the world a better place for the remaining 5,9 billion people or something else.

I agree with Chris Williams. Patriotism is the sense of belonging to a community. That sense of community is stronger the smaller the subgroup.

For example my community is.

1. Human
2. North American
3. United States of America
4. Massachusetts
5. My town
6. My local school
7. My neighborhood
8. My family.

By the time a sense of community gets up to #1 it is pretty weak because we have never had to be united as a community of humans. Maybe interstellar war against other races would change that, but as long as we are alone on this mudball I don't see that changing.

@Lokken

When did the word and originate, and in what context? The word patriot originates from the ancient greek word patris, which means fatherland.