girls mature quicker than boysThis was said by one of the SP members, and I don't mention her name because this is common rumor and I have nothing against her, but I think that is just plain bullsh*t. If there is something I hate, there is this common thought.

I mean, we(boys) don't mature slower than girls, they just mature in another way. I mean, some things that boys have encountered early and have taken care of girls won't be enough "mature" until they are 60-70 years old, the same is other things for the reverse. I know that we boys seem immature at the ages 12-20 but believe me, most guys I know thinks that girls in the range between 20 and 25 are VERY, and I mean VERY(!!), immature. Does that mean that girls stop maturing at the age of 20 and suddenly starts again in the age of 26? NO!! It just means that girls and boys mature in different ways.

/End Rant

You're likely talking mental maturity. On average, girls mature sexually two years before boys.

The relevant question is what aspect of maturation one is focusing on and even before that, how 'maturation' is defined.
The answer to the latter in this case is probably:

"the process of an individual organism growing organically; a purely biological unfolding of events involved in an organism changing gradually from a simple to a more complex level"

Since maturation is sometimes also used to talk about the development of cognitive abilities, experience etc. it is difficult to refute that argument.

Hey there Caleb, we seem to run into each other quite often on these boards, don't we? ;)

Now calm down honey, I never meant to offend anyone by my maturity talk. You're quite right, everyone matures differently... And I shouldn't make generalities.
It's just that personnally, I have encountered more immature boys than girls (always mentally speaking) :D .
Now, once again, sorry I have offended you. I'll try to choose my words more carefully next time.

Girls are always more mature then boys, it is the way it is.

Now calm down honey, I never meant to offend anyone by my maturity talk.Well, as I said, there was nothing against you, it was against the common myth.

Also, I meant mentally, not biologically.

Girls women tend to put a lot of stock in "maturity" of all kinds. Boys/Men just dont care and do what they want without bothering too much whether it is mature or not. What do you dthink is the most mature?

In addition to joacqin thought, is there much either boys or girls can do about it? :hmm:

Sexual maturity is usually achieved faster by girls. The youngest mother recorded was closing to 10 (yes, ten), while the youngest father I've heard of was about 12 (I'm not aware if at the moment of conception or of birth). However, it may well be about 12-13 for a boy, which isn't so rare and 14 for a girl, which isn't so rare either.

As for intellectual and mental maturity, there is more of politics than science in it.

Feminists will babble about emotional literacy.

Militant males will mumble something about stamina, toughness etc.

A bit farther from the extremes, you have empathy, responsibility, reliability, economy (management), willpower and several others.

From my experience, I can say that:

Boys until a certain age typically hit first, think later. Good for the atypical ones, I guess. Boys until a certain age don't feel comfortable in the world of emotion. As if they ever really did, anyway. Boys feel an urgent need to prove better than everyone in the universe. Can't be cured. Girls after a certain age are beyond help when it comes to rational thinking. Academic training at university level sometimes helps. Girls typically don't bother keeping promises. Those who bother fail. When girls speak about feelings, they typically mean their own feelings. They don't know what's wrong about that.
If general stupidity is concerned, both genders are equal. By this I mean that there are jocks and there are cheerleaders. For each boy with a ball in place of brain, you have a girl who goes for that type. And for each plastic doll clad in a whole pallette of cand colours, you have a boy who goes for that type. Things being as they are, the conclusion is downright obvious: they are both asking for it and getting it.

Another factor is stress. I believe that on day-to-day basis women appear more mature, while in difficult situations men take over. Let's take a relationship as an example. The boy is more likely to behave less than spotlessly, while for a girl it'll be easier to restrain. However, in a situation like incredibly-attractive-beautiful-smart-and-nice-stranger-approaching, you have fifty fifty for a boy and practically a sure failure for a girl.

Girls after a certain age are beyond help when it comes to rational thinking. Academic training at university level sometimes helps :hahaerr:

Chev, what about clarifying 'certain age'?!

Girls typically don't bother keeping promises I look forward to all the flames you're going to get for that comment! Brace yourself!

What were you thinking? That is one heck of a generalisation. :p

[ March 27, 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Harbourboy ]

I am eager to hear an experienced view from the girls side on this and see how much that differs from chevaliers :D

Girls after a certain age are beyond help when it comes to rational thinking. Academic training at university level sometimes helps.
Girls typically don't bother keeping promises. Those who bother fail.
LOL...Glad to see that you think we beasts can be trained at SOME point in our lives. :rolleyes:

Both of these statements seem quite absurd to me. The second statement is simply ludicrous, if you truly believe it. Or maybe you just wrote to see what kind of reaction you'd get. ;)

Now, I don't believe all that to be true, Chev. Here's my point of view on the whole situation. In my experience, I've found that girls say that guys aren't mature enough is that most women like stability. (Note: I said "most" women.) They want to settle down with someone and not have to worry about going out into the ****storm that we know as dating. And, generally, girls have that impulse at a fairly young age.

For guys, it's totally different. I mean, y'all just don't care about settling down when you're 20. Y'all want to have fun and such for as long as you can, which is why most of y'all don't even think of settling down until you're finished with school and have a decent job and so on and so forth. I've found that that impulse to settle down with guys doesn't usually happen until the late 20s and early 30s.

Hence, based strictly on observation, I would have to say that's why girls think that guys are immature. It's all about priorities with this one, and we're just on a different wavelength. That's why there are so many girls who date or get married to guys that are older then them. Not to say that the reverse can't happen, but the former is the more common scenario.

So, Chev, basically, what I'm trying to say that all that stuff you said was total crap and needs to be seriously given another thought.

Pretty much yes, but he did say "from his experience” which obviously he does not have a lot of.

Anyway, y'all just don't care about settling down when you're 20.<- Who in the right mind would want to settle down at that age?

That's another thing that I really don't agree with, but can't help that it's a part of society. It seems to me that girls are bred with the idea in their heads that they have to settle down young, get married and have kids. Like that's all a woman's good for in life. Makes me sick, but I'd be stupid if I said that that isn't the mentality that's pumped into girls.

Oh, sure, sure, feminism prevents it from happening in the big cities, but in small towns, like the one I live in, that backwater mentality still stands through the test of time. Matter of fact, my b/f's nephew told me that he wanted to get married by the time he was 21. Horrible. Not to mention that I know plenty of girls that are 17 and 18 and happily married. I can only shake my head in sadness.

I mostly agree, although I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to get married at 20. I'm sure that we all know examples where it has worked out fine and in those cases, nothing would have been gained by waiting. One of the happiest and most stable families I know revolves around a couple that married at 20. You only get one life, and if a happy family is the most important thing in that life then you could argue that waiting until 30 is just wasting 10 years that could be spent doing the thing you most wanted to do.

But, of course, if a young girl felt pressured into doing it before she was ready, just because it was expected, then that is an undesirable state of affairs.

I guess what I am saying is that things apply differently to different people. :)

In truth do I tell you:

Chev, what about clarifying 'certain age'?!Shortly after they cease to be little girls, the most logical beings ever to exist ;)

I look forward to all the flames you're going to get for that comment! Brace yourself!Yea, I knew what was coming. :D

What were you thinking? That is one heck of a generalisation.Yes. It was made on purpose. I know about one exception to the rule, know about several others. A few drops in the sea. It probably appears more serious than it is - after all the world is still going on - but it's true nonetheless.

I am eager to hear an experienced view from the girls side on this and see how much that differs from chevaliersIn such discussions, when such questions pop up, girls always say the same, only the nicks change ;)

Sometimes, however, comes in one more affected by life. Especially one whom the life forced to learn from things happening. Her reaction will lack the righteous zeal presented in this thread.

Before you ask, yes, I have heard women say all the things I said. Many times.

Both of these statements seem quite absurd to me. The second statement is simply ludicrous, if you truly believe it. Or maybe you just wrote to see what kind of reaction you'd get.No, Spelly. I believe it. And I knew what reaction I would get.

I don't see any connection between my belief in it and its being ludicrous. And it's not so simple.

The truth is that for women promises are of a relative rather than absolute nature. One could as well add "if it'll be convinient", or "if it won't be overly troublesome". Only few consider themselves bound by a promise or a word once given. But they're not magically freed from the relativity.

Will I get anything else than a subjective evaluation of my statements as hilarious? Or a claim that I don't believe in what I myself say?It makes me think about maturity, you know...

In my experience, I've found that girls say that guys aren't mature enough is that most women like stability. (Note: I said "most" women.) They want to settle down with someone and not have to worry about going out into the ****storm that we know as dating. And, generally, girls have that impulse at a fairly young age.Agreed, girls get to that at some point. But not really at a fairly young age. Most girls below the age of 25-26 I know, don't see things that way. Before that age, they avoid anything permanent. However, it surely depends on the culture. Where divorce is easily obtained and widely accepted, hardly anything is really permanent. Generally, the less education, the more true the generalisation is. The less risk of getting tied down, the more true it is, too.

I'm not saying men are different. Both sexes are pretty much equal here.

For guys, it's totally different. I mean, y'all just don't care about settling down when you're 20.Why should I establish a household at the age of 20? And how, in the first place? Marry a random woman, invite her to my parents' house, make babies, leave my studies and sweep streets for a living?

Y'all want to have fun and such for as long as you can, which is why most of y'all don't even think of settling down until you're finished with school and have a decent job and so on and so forth.No, I don't want to have fun "and such" for as long as I can. I want my studies finished and job secured, because I want a house for my children and a considerable steady income to pay for it and keep it going.

As a gratuitous trivia, I can tell you I was all about getting steady when I was 20. I was even more so when I was 19. Or 18. I could tell you tales about girls not wanting commitment hours. I'm not telling you that guys are better. I'm telling you that both sexes are the same in this regard.

Hence, based strictly on observation, I would have to say that's why girls think that guys are immature.The inference is valid and correct so long as the premises are. Reservations as to premises explained above.

So, Chev, basically, what I'm trying to say that all that stuff you said was total crap and needs to be seriously given another thought.Such bold words should generally be backed by some authority. Forgive my audacity, but I fail to see any. What I see, is an emotional and zealous reaction to implied criticism. I also see a nice set of generalisation with the word "all" actually and explicitly used. Speaking of maturity.

Also, basically, switch the sides and substitute "crap" with something like "defensively orientated logical nonsense" and you will have ready feedback from me.

Pretty much yes, but he did say "from his experience” which obviously he does not have a lot of.1. I disagree with what chev says.
2. I am experienced. (obviously)
3. If I disagree with chev, chev disagrees with me.
4. If chev disagrees with me and I am experienced, chev disagrees with someone who is experienced.
5. Chev is inexperienced. (obviously)

End of "obvious" inference.

That would be it, in the subject of maturity. Ladies, thanks for the show.

Harbourboy: see what I was talking about? ;)

Who's next?

After my girlfriend read this discussion and particulary Chev's replies, she finally understood what I was talking about, as I've tried to tell her and make her understand the same thing I posted here.

That means that a girl that is 17 and is a femininst(but so am I so who cares) is on Chev's side.

I am eager to hear an experienced view from the girls side on this and see how much that differs from chevaliers All right, you asked for it. :p Boys are generally interested in one thing. All this other nonsense they spout simply reflects their disgruntlement at not scoring.

Boys are generally interested in one thing Yes. But then, girls are generally interested in one thing too -- the same things boys are generally interested in.

(Yep -- when all is said and done, all anyone really wants, is pizza.)

Fork out the money and you can have all you want. :p (Pizza, that is.)

Well, I'm male and 44, and as a member of a gaming forum, obviously not mature for my age :D . AFAIK, the oldest female SP member is Rallymama, who's a spring chicken at 40.

So there you have it - proof positive that females mature faster than males. :hahaerr: :shake:

(For the record, common belief is that girls mature faster than boys. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. I've seen evidence proving both sides of the arguement.)

Totally off-topic - I never knew Sojourner was female - I always thought she was a he. Don't know why I thought that, though.

Why should I establish a household at the age of 20? And how, in the first place? Marry a random woman, invite her to my parents' house, make babies, leave my studies and sweep streets for a living?
Given the maturity of your outlook, it is not surprising that you couldn't do more than one thing at a time.

5. Chev is inexperienced. (obviously)Obviously

(For the record, common belief is that girls mature faster than boys. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. I've seen evidence proving both sides of the arguement.)It was put in brackets, but in my view quite important. I agree totally with Splunge on this one. Common belief says girls mature faster. I, too, have seen evidence for that, for the opposite and for a neutral claim that there is no such difference.

What surprises me is that I am being attacked not for making an opposite claim (ie boys maturing faster, which I don't claim, but someone can always mistake me for the sake of sheer quarrelling :rolleyes: ), but for claiming that girls and boys mature equally fast.

This leads me to a question: does the problem in itself matter or am I being scolded for questioning a common belief?

Should I apologise for forcing you to think?

Given the maturity of your outlook, it is not surprising that you couldn't do more than one thing at a time.Chandos, the sense of your elaborate construct apparently escapes me.

I don't know what you imply. Perhaps you mean doing three things at a time: studying, working and caring about children? I refrain from comments until you have confirmed.

However, there is something that simply has to be said:

Education requires attention and children require attention. Studies and child-raising don't go together.

What is more, a household actually requires money to maintain. Raising children also requires a lot of money and anyone who has ever had a pale shade of contact with it, knows how much of money, effort and attention it takes.

People who think it's done by saying a "yes", lack a firm grasp on reality. In fact, they lack any grasp on reality. Unless their money grows on trees or they are not going to bring their children up but just let them grow up. Like you grow corn.

Sorry, I'm not going to become a welfare recipient and breed more welfare recipients. I want my family to have a steady and well-maintained home that will last and will give support, always. I want all their material, intellectual, emotional and spiritual needs taken care of. I want them to be good and strong people, which requires some great deal of attention. I want them to be educated and even learned. I want them to land good jobs when their time comes and give to their own children the same I will have given to them.

That is not achievable at the age of 20 unless one is:

A millionaire A genius
Of course, one can be a farmer or an artisan inheriting both the house and the job from his parents and learning his skills through work instead of pursuing the way of academic education and seeking a good employer (alt. opening a business). However, it's an external circumstance and as such has nothing to do with maturity or lack thereof.

As I see it:

24: the age when I get my LLM

Absolutely no children until then. Not buying any house or appartment or anything, as I don't know where I will work in the first place. I guess it would be very mature to buy a house near my parents and go to work in another city or country :rolleyes:

28: the approximate age when I get a doctorate or bar membership and the right to practice as a lawyer, or a job that will last

A good moment to marry (if not already) and have the first child.

What would be more mature? To care not about studies and job and just get married and make babies with a randomly chosen and hastily wed girl in my parents' house?

Don't beat around the bush. If that's what you think, have the guts to say that aloud.

@Sarevok-: I expected more from you. I admit my mistake.

On a final note and to finish off the problem of marrying early versus getting a job etc first.

In all brutal reality, historical (and now becoming obsolete) role of woman was to find a realiable male to take care of her and her children.

Historical role of man was to be that reliable male.

Therefore, the role of the male was to nail down a good position and the role of the female was to nail down the male.

In all brutal honesty, how can anyone claim that any one of them is more mature than the other? To me they appear more or less equally mature and equally fast maturing.

In present times, when historical roles have undergone substantial changes, the gender-related differences are becoming more and more irrelevant.

In present times, individual traits count. Personality, character, physical abilities/limitations. That's one. Everyone has his own view on what maturity is, that's another one. We have no right to enforce our views on the other people.

My proposed conclusion is: women and men (boys and girls) mature equally fast in other respects than puberty (sexual maturing).

For an objective conclusion, we would need to have objective standards of maturity. Do we? Don't let us be silly, there is no way we all fully agree on what is mature and what is not. Surely we won't agree on the level of importance of each "mature" trait relative to other "mature" traits, anyway.

On a formal note: we don't need spite and elaborate insults to reach conclusions.

Howgh!

To join in the fray, and citing nothing more than my own personal experiences (and focusing roughly on ages 10-20), I amazingly recall that there were some boys and girls who were remarkably mature, some who were remarkably immature, and the majority of whom fell somewhere in between.

The crucial thing that I will note, which is my firm belief and is based on nothing more than the aforementioned limited personal history, is HOW the maturity/immaturity is actually manifested. I recall that boys were much more physical and vulgar in their immaturity and girls displayed theirs in a more emotionally manipulative way.

So, looking at it from the outside, one could see where boys could be deemed to be less mature on average because of the way their immaturity was demonstrated. Girls, IMHO, were just as mature/immature as boys -- it's just that the way they acted was more acceptable to an outside viewer.

So, there you have it from my point of view -- totally unsubstantiated by any scientific study or principles, but it makes sense to me and fits with my experiences.

Chevalier. You make some well reasoned arguments and I think it is clear to us what your position is. What I would add to clarify my thoughts is that not everybody can go to university and become a lawyer (or similar professional). There are plenty of people who can become successful and happy in their lives working in other careers in shops, factories, small businesses etc. They might not earn as much as you will as a lawyer but they are still not in the realm of being welfare recipients. If, like my parents, you don't drink or smoke, and are sensible with your money, you can give your kids all the opportunity they need. As I said before, some of the happiest, most well-adjusted families that I know are run by couples who married and started families in their very early twenties, without being either millionaires or geniuses.

As I have said before, different circumstances apply to different people (which is part of what makes these boards so interesting). :)

@ dmc

So, looking at it from the outside, one could see where boys could be deemed to be less mature on average because of the way their immaturity was demonstrated. Girls, IMHO, were just as mature/immature as boys -- it's just that the way they acted was more acceptable to an outside viewer.
Hear, hear!
This exactly what I think. By the way, it's true that standarts of "maturity" are different for everyone so one cannot be completely objective on the subject.
For my part, I have always linked maturity with responsiblity so a mature person would be someone able to assume his/hers actions, mistakes etc..
Also, it's quite true that everyone has equal chances in that aspect. I just want to point out that in our society, conditioning has made it that girls are able to take on responsibilites earlier than boys (if I remember rightly, not fifty years ago: girls were still taught to sew and cook in schools while boys were taught football (aka soccer) etc..).
Now that was just a small generalisation made to explain the common belief. I hope it is understood that in our present time, it doesn't apply to most people (boys & girls get equal education and chores).
So to sum up: everyone is born the same, conditioning does the rest.

if I remember rightly, not fifty years ago: girls were still taught to sew and cook in schools while boys were taught football (aka soccer) etc.. Not 50 years ago. When I was in junior high school (30 years ago) there was home economics for girls (cooking, etc. - it had nothing to do with economics), and shops for boys (basically how to be a handyman). I don't know if those are still taught (I don't have any children), but it still points to the conditioning that Lady Luthien refers to.

[ March 28, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: Splunge ]

How nice to see how most of us agree on most of the basics ;)

@Splunge: I already had cooking at school together with girls ;) Girls had technical drawing et al together with boys.

@Harbourboy: I couldn't agree more. What I meant was that continuing your education instead of marrying and having children early isn't immature. Neither is choosing a job not based on academic skills. My point is: it has no bearing on maturity at all.

People who don't go to college, university etc, they are prone to consider the academics immature because they are not getting a job and making babies since early twenties.

People who get academic education instead, they will look down to the rest of the world and see them as immature because they are not getting more and more courses and diplomas.

Both groups feel unjustly treated, but neither feels unjustly treating.

What I call immature, with regard to getting education or not, is dropping out of school because of opposite sex relations, or the urge and pressure to marry etc, and as a result: ending up unemployed with children, or working hard for sheer subsistence - while the person could have cared more for his or her future and would normally have finished the studies and landed a better paying job. With all respect and without any positive/negative assessment, that's immaturity for which one has to pay to the end of his or her days.

Or get over it and lead a normal life - which is the most mature thing ever to do, anyway.

Please note that I'm not telling anyone how to live his life. I only intend to show that there's no best way and it's ridiculous to claim that whoever lives differently must be immature. That's what I pointed out and attacked.

A little far don't you think, Chandos? At any rate, can we please be a little more diplomatic/less personal about how we express our opinions here? My last request is for anyone else who wants to post here as well.

[ March 29, 2004, 03:25: Message edited by: Beren ]