I am not entirely sure what I hope to gain from posting this, except maybe some insight.

I have never been much for faith as many people see it. I don't go to church, I don't pray, I don't think that everything will come out all right in the end. I would like to think that we are all going to do all right, but I just can't.

I enjoy life, don't get me wrong. I know that there are good things that happen, but they can never out weigh the bad. I am an optimist, but it only go's so far.

Reading other polls, I envy the people like Chev and Hacken Slash. They have faith, if not in "God" then in something. I don't.

I am still young, and I know that there is plenty to see and do in this world, but there is always the thought "Does it matter".

I mean, people live, and people die. Nothing can change that. One day, the Earth will crumble and collapse, and nothing that anybody will have ever done will have made a difference.

What is faith going to do for us then?

Here comes my rather controversial take on faith. I see faith as the easy way out of the harshness that is life. People turn to faith either because they have been raised (I like to call it brainwashed but it is a bit too harsh a term) to have a certain faith or because they are not able to deal with the uncertainty and seemingly pointlessness of life. Faith is for me a cop out, something you turn to because oyu cant handle reality as it is. For me faith is no different from drugs or alcohol although faith isnt as destructive on a personal level as drugs or alcohol tend to be, however, on a global level faith is a thousand times more destructive than any drug.

Joacquin, I can tell you that I wasn't brainwashed. My father wasn't a cristian, and his mother are a jew, but I am still a christian. I became a christian only a year, and I can ensure you, I am not brainwashed. And from what I have learned, so is not my girlfriend. We just like to believe that the world is not all proven and such, that unnatural being and things exists, that there is a god that is above all.

I never touch "faith". I see no value in it. Some religionists are fond of saying "Reason isn't the ONLY means to know about the world!". The implication being that "faith" can somehow tell us something about the reality we live in by some consistent yet unexplainable method.

Faith me some knowledge then! DO not reason the point with me as even the "faithist" here always do. Show me that humans are "more" than physical, carbon-based lifeforms whose sensory organs obtain information and whose brains process the data.
Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!". Intuit me some knowledge of God's existence!

BTW, having no faith should not be depressing adn whether one finds it depressing or not should not figure into why one will believe something is true.

One can be "brainwashed" at ANY age. I have met and spoken with former cultists who were in tehir mid-thrities when they were brainwashed into a religious cult!

The one thing all brainwashed people have in common is that none of them believe themselves to be brainwashed.

@ RQ

I hope you're not suggesting that everyone who has faith has been "brainwashed." As it is not only insulting, but untrue and incredibly ignorant. I respect your atheism, as at times I've grappled with the idea myself. But this:
Faith me some knowledge then! DO not reason the point with me as even the "faithist" here always do. Show me that humans are "more" than physical, carbon-based lifeforms whose sensory organs obtain information and whose brains process the data.

Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!". Intuit me some knowledge of God's existence!
Was that a joke? Because you look like one for typing it. This is a clear demonstration to me that you don't understand the meaning of faith. At all. And I'm no bible-beater.

By the way, kicking everyone's skull in by berating them is no way to prove a point. Try to be a little less condescending, please. If faith is such a sham, it should be easily proven without calling everyone who has it "brainwashed."

I don't see faith as being as bad as some of the others would make it out to be, Jag. I mean, I believe in God, I guess, or at least some equivalent thereof. Something has to be out there, for there are way too many things that "reason" can't explain. Then again, faith's not too talkative about some subjects either.

I think that maintaining a healthy balance of both is the way to go. I mean, I'm not going to preach to everyone in the whole world about my faith, that's just not me. I keep it inside, tell people who ask, and that's pretty much it.

Besides, you're still young, Jag. Plenty of time to "find" God. But, finding him has a way of changing people, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. I suppose it all depends on if and how you plan on practicing your particular faith.

Most religions can change your outlook on life, but only if you let it. I think that most people go out looking for a change, because they just can't life live the way they've been living it anymore. In the end, I truly believe that having faith in anything is a good thing, but you can most certainly live your life without it.

I have faith, but i don't really believe in having organized factions for faith. I believe that everyone should have their own little "religion", as long as its not destructive to other people. Besides, some people tend to judge by religion, (i.e. a lot of people for some reason don't like Baptists) but I have friends that are Baptists, Catholics, Buddhists, and atheists.

Religion IS the cause of destruction. If there were no such thing as religion the world would be swell.

[ April 22, 2004, 23:50: Message edited by: Sarevok Anchev ]

Sarevok, no offence, but that is just laughable. If then, people would only not have any morals and would kill eachother whenever they wanted, because they would not know that it was wrong, but they would also only think about themself and do whatever they would like to get their means through which would lead to wars that would be much more cruel than normal ones.

Eh? Religion is not a necessary precursor to morals. One can have morals without being a member of a religion.

I guess deep inside I have something resembling faith, even though I could not name what I believe in if my life depended on it; there is a polytheistic/pagan bent as well as some christian elements.
Its not a big thing, however, nothing that would strongly dominate my life or give me any direction (other then having respect for what is surrounding me). I dont expect it to, nor do I feel a need of it providing me some kind of comfort. Maybe that will change when I grow older.
Actually, I am quite happy with my relaxed handling of it all, even if it is a bit vague.

Others who are of strong faith and who experience an inner need for it have my understanding (after all, I can relate to them to a limited degree), respect and full support - as long as they dont try to force their ways on others or wave their beliefes in the faces of people around them. For me religion is something very personal... nothing for huge crowds. Crowds are dangerous. Someone chooses to impose certain restrictions & rules on him/herself (rules made by other humans, btw) - fine. Thats his decision, not mine, not anybodies else.

Sorry, as all attempts to express myself on the topic of religion its quite confusing. Seems like I live in a world of uncertainties, which is perfectly okay for me.

In my opinion (which I don't usually voice here), faith is not something that is always one-way (that is, man -> God). It is also the idea (in some religions) that there is a God that has faith in you that you can do something.

In a secular sense, I believe faith exists. I have little doubt that there is at least one parent in the world with complete faith in his or her child, or one man with complete faith in his brother.

So in my opinion, faith helps us instill meaning in a person or entity (ex. God). We imbue someone with meaning, and they become important to us, and we have someone to put our faith in and love. People die, but I think that it is better to have "loved and lost than to not have loved at all."

One last thing: it keeps irking me when people say that religion causes war and death and therefore it sucks. In my opinion, religion is a big part of cultures, and cultures clash, and people die. And in the bigger picture, culture is a big part of people, and people clash because they're different, and they die. Take away religion, and I believe that people will still kill each other. I guess you could kill everyone person or eliminate their free will, and have a nice peace, though.

My take on it? Just go watch Dogma - Kevin Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head for me, personally.

@Death rattle:


I hope you're not suggesting that everyone who has faith has been "brainwashed." As it is not only insulting, but untrue and incredibly ignorant. I respect your atheism, as at times I've grappled with the idea myself.No I was not. I was addressing the poster who replied before me who seemed to be making the case that HE could not be brainwashed because his parents did not teach him about christianity.

I have known born-and-raised ATHEISTS who were brainwashed into believing ridiculous things.


But this:

quote:
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Faith me some knowledge then! DO not reason the point with me as even the "faithist" here always do. Show me that humans are "more" than physical, carbon-based lifeforms whose sensory organs obtain information and whose brains process the data.

Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!". Intuit me some knowledge of God's existence!

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Was that a joke? Because you look like one for typing it.Now now...ad hominems.*Tsk *Tsk


The above was directed specifically at people who make the sketchy assertion that "reason alone cannot lead you to truth/knowledge" or "There are many things which reason cannot tell you(the implication being that "faith" CAN!)".

No one EVER supports these statements and my rant above(inspired by Asimov's rant against faith) is a challenge of sorts for people making this claim: Use some means OTHER THAN REASON to inform me. "Faith' me some knowledge then or at least describe the mechanism by which faith works to obtain or help one obtain factual knowledge.


This is a clear demonstration to me that you don't understand the meaning of faith. At all. And I'm no bible-beater.WHICH meaning? Words shift meaning with context and usage adn the word "faith" means something different depending on the faithist in particular adn the "gear" he is in.
Often I will be in a debate with a theist who accuses atheists or scientists of having or relying upon "faith". When I tell them I have NONE adn never touch the stuff they retort "Don't you trust that your mother will not try and murder you?/Don't you hope for the best?/Don't you believe a chair will support your weight before you sit on it?"

In other words "faith" is, in THAT context simply another word for Hope, trust or belief. WHen I point this out they backtrack and assure me that it is much more than that and again try to assert teh "comparable to reason" angle.

A clear definition is NEVER really given unfortunately.

By the way, kicking everyone's skull in by berating them is no way to prove a point.I agree, which is why I try not to do that. Doesn't stop SOME PEOPLE fropm reading such INTO whatever I DO post though.


Try to be a little less condescending, please. If faith is such a sham, it should be easily proven without calling everyone who has it "brainwashed." Tell you what; if YOU can PROVE to me that Santa CLaus does NOT exist then I will agree that it is my duty to "disprove faith".

Until then, and with good reason the burden of proof is on YOU making the positive assertion.

@ RQ
@Death rattle: Do me a favor. Next time you accuse someone, falsely, of an ad hominem attack (hint: look up "ad hominem"), try not to start off with a childish name call. Or dismiss arguements before they're made by calling people "faithists." It's kind of a "pot calling the kettle black" kind of thing.
The above was directed specifically at people who make the sketchy assertion that "reason alone cannot lead you to truth/knowledge" or "There are many things which reason cannot tell you(the implication being that "faith" CAN!)".

No one EVER supports these statements and my rant above(inspired by Asimov's rant against faith) is a challenge of sorts for people making this claim: Use some means OTHER THAN REASON to inform me. "Faith' me some knowledge then or at least describe the mechanism by which faith works to obtain or help one obtain factual knowledge.Like I said, misunderstanding faith. Faith is meant more as a tool for understanding than for education. While faith doesn't offer a technical, evident explaination of say, why life exists, it does offer a form of understanding that is more meaningful to some people than that which the scientific explanation would provide.

While someone totally reliant on faith might believe that God created the universe, someone totally reliant on science and evidence will believe in the big bang. But a more open-minded person, who values both the understanding of faith and the proof of science, might conclude that the big bang was a tool God used to create the universe.
WHICH meaning? Words shift meaning with context and usage adn the word "faith" means something different depending on the faithist in particular adn the "gear" he is in. Or, another way of saying that is that faith means different things to different people. I suppose the universal definition of "faith" is "a belief in something for which one has no proof." Well, even though you say above:
I never touch "faith". I see no value in it. You also say:
Tell you what; if YOU can PROVE to me that Santa CLaus does NOT exist then I will agree that it is my duty to "disprove faith". So you state here that one cannot prove that something does not exist, only that something does exist. Well, whether you want to admit it or not, you do have faith. Just a different kind. You believe, but cannot prove, that God does not exist. You, as an atheist, have faith in the non-existance of a higher power.
I agree, which is why I try not to do that. Doesn't stop SOME PEOPLE fropm reading such INTO whatever I DO post though. When you say things like ""Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!" obviously meant to belittle those you disagree with (in this case, the "faithists") there isn't really much to "read into" your rather obvious sentiment.

OK, OK, please refrain from intentional baiting by name-calling etc. It's hard enough for people to remain civil in this forum already.

Also, remember that this forum is for people to express their thoughts and beliefs, so obviously there is going to be quite a bit of disagreement.

Try not to take other people's beliefs as personally insulting; in the end what one believes and what is the truth are not necessarily one and the same.

This isn't being directed at anyone in particular; it's just a general reminder since several threads here were getting a bit acrimonious to say the least.

[ April 23, 2004, 18:30: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

@DarkGoddess

I wouldn't say that I am trying find 'God' but like I said, I envy those who do. As I read above (correct me if I am wrong), Death Rabbit believes in God, and RuneQuester believes in not believing in God.

If this is true, am I missing out on something by not believing either way?

@Jaguar

You seem to be able to stir up some messy threads, my friend :p .

I would have to modify your summation slightly:

Death Rabbit believes in God (we won't try to define DR's perception of God, but we do know he's at all the Laker's home games ;) )

RuneQuester does not believe in anything...at least that's what he believes :idea: .

In answer to your last question...in my opinion "yes"...but you ultimately have to determine what you seek in this world.

@ Jag

Not at all. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think you should worry about it. I know people who've gone their entire lives going to church because of obligation or family pressure, and never once admitting out loud that they've felt nothing all those years. I've also known people who "found God" after years of bitter non-belief, and it changed their lives for the better. Point is, it's different for everyone. One day you'll realize which path is right for you. Maybe you'll toe the "middle of the line" like I seem to be doing now.

When I was younger, I became fed up with the church of my birth and community (the Mormon church). My mother, and I'll always love her for this, told me that if I wasn't getting what I wanted from the mormon church, then I should check out other options. I attended churches of other faiths, even outside of Christianity. I wanted to see what else was out there. I personally came to the conclusion that faith, for me, was important to me. But picking a particular "flavor" was irrelevant, because all faiths have good ideas and teachings, and are the "true faith" for those who believe in them. There's no church on earth that doesn't think it's faith is the "truest" of them all. My assertion is, none of them are really wrong.

Point is, you're still young. I wouldn't sweat it. Live your life, and your beliefs will take hold. You can have "faith" in that.

Point is, you're still young
You tell him, old-timer! :p :D

Seriously, though, I agree with DR, even though I come from the other side of the fence. I don’t have faith, nor do I wish I did. Nor do I find my life devoid of “meaning”, because I have no need for it to have meaning. But that’s just me; others are different. My advice is much like DR’s – live your life the way you see fit, and let your beliefs (whatever they may be) develop based on your experiences.

And Death Rabbit, are you sure you're not in your 30’s or 40’s? :p

For me this whole fiath topic is a tricky one. I'm an unrepentant atheist and science believer. The problem is i have faith in something. I'm not sure what, but science cannot answer all the questions. I' not saying I'm agnostic, because I don't believe in some mystical higher force, but why do people care for one another? Why do we care if someone lives or dies? It comes down to more than science. If someone I never met died would I care? The answer is yes! Why? I don't know, but it has something, for me, to do with faith. Faith in the goodness of humanity, faith that there is hope and something worth living for, faith that we are not here for ourselves.
I don't see Faith as being a strictly religeous thing. I think it has something to do with more than that. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive, in fact I don't think they can exist apart. You need to believe in *something*, or what's the point. Why not do whatever is in your own best interest for your entire life?
That to me at least is the escence of the argument. Whether it's the belief in "good" or the belief in "God", everyone needs faith of some kind.

@Death RABBIT:


Do me a favor. Next time you accuse someone, falsely, of an ad hominem attack (hint: look up "ad hominem"), try not to start off with a childish name call.LEt me get this straight...you HONESTLY believe that I set out to make fun of your handle and not only that but you believe that the best I could come up with was "Death Rattle" as an insult?!? If I were into such childish behavior as insulting people whom, as far as I rememebr, I have never even had a disagreement with before, I PROMISE you my imagination is more fertile adn my wit much sharper than whomever would cough up "Death Rattle" to insult someone called "Death Rabbit".

Think about it for a minute.


Or dismiss arguements before they're made by calling people "faithists." It's kind of a "pot calling the kettle black" kind of thing."Faithist" is an insult to people of faith??? Then I am sorry. I truly was not aware that this word was even common and certainly did not think it has usage beyond "One who has faith" or "one who believes in the validity of faith".


What arguments did I dismiss out of hand and not answer to your satisfaction?

Perhaps if you DEFINE "Faith" as you are using it, it would help us to understand why you ACCUSE me of such dastardly things(/sarcasm).

quote:
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The above was directed specifically at people who make the sketchy assertion that "reason alone cannot lead you to truth/knowledge" or "There are many things which reason cannot tell you(the implication being that "faith" CAN!)".

No one EVER supports these statements and my rant above(inspired by Asimov's rant against faith) is a challenge of sorts for people making this claim: Use some means OTHER THAN REASON to inform me. "Faith' me some knowledge then or at least describe the mechanism by which faith works to obtain or help one obtain factual knowledge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said, misunderstanding faith. Faith is meant more as a tool for understanding than for education.EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! If it is a tool for understanding(just as REASON IS!!) then show ME!!! Make me understand something, NOT by reasoning the point with me, but with "faith". Appeal NOT to my rationality but to my "faith"(which you emphatically assert that I DO have).


While faith doesn't offer a technical, evident explaination of say, why life exists, it does offer a form of understanding that is more meaningful to some people than that which the scientific explanation would provide.AGAIN, this is EXACTLY the type of posting my "rant" was directed at! If faith can be used to enable or facilitate understanding(by "understanding" I mean UNDERSTANDING, not "mutual appreciation for our amorphously defined collection of beliefs"), then SHOW me! IF REASON is not the only tool for understanding(and faith is another) then do NOT use reason to explain this to me. "Faith" me this knowledge/understanding!

While someone totally reliant on faith might believe that God created the universe, someone totally reliant on science and evidence will believe in the big bang.You are confusing "belief" and ACCEPTANCE. Accepting the big bang happened requires no "faith" or "belief".


But a more open-minded person, who values both the understanding of faith and the proof of science, might conclude that the big bang was a tool God used to create the universe."The well meaning contention that all ideas have equal merit seems to me little different than the disastrous contention that no ideas have any merit."- Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain

Are YOU open minded enough to consider that no God was required for teh bang to happen? Are YOU open minded enough to consider a universe WITHOUT ANY supernatural elements?

I ahve been on both sides of the fence. My open mindedness lead me from conservative christian and consipracy theorist to liberal skeptic and atheist. If it turns out that God exists or teh Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT act alone to kill JFK or that UFOs ARE visiting our planet then I will be open minded enough to say "boy was I wrong!" adn move on, letting the dogmatists suffer the embarrassment that comes with defending a ridiculous position in spite of the evidence to teh contrary.

quote:
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WHICH meaning? Words shift meaning with context and usage adn the word "faith" means something different depending on the faithist in particular adn the "gear" he is in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, another way of saying that is that faith means different things to different people.Not only that but it means different things FROM SENTENCE TO SENTENCE! That is why I am asking YOU for a definition. IF "faith" is simply another word for "trust" or "hope" then I will stick with "trust" adn hope" thank you as is my right(this helps alleviate confusuion when discussing with others who might hold an understandibly more "spiritual" definition of faith).


I suppose the universal definition of "faith" is "a belief in something for which one has no proof."Then by THAT definition, I have NO faith.


... Well, even though you say above:

quote:
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I never touch "faith". I see no value in it.
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You also say:

quote:
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Tell you what; if YOU can PROVE to me that Santa CLaus does NOT exist then I will agree that it is my duty to "disprove faith".
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So you state here that one cannot prove that something does not exist, only that something does exist.One cannot prove a negative, yes.


Well, whether you want to admit it or not, you do have faith. Just a different kind. You believe, but cannot prove, that God does not exist. You, as an atheist, have faith in the non-existance of a higher power.This is a common fallacy but it is STILL wrong. You cannot turn a NEGATIVE, dissenting position into a POSITIVE assertion simply by rewording it. I do not "believe in the non-existence of..." anything. I LACK belief in the existence of MANY things(dragons, gods etc.).

You CAN do this when discussing whether one likes chocolate cake or not. The statements "I do not like chocolate cake" and "I like NON-chocolate cake" are essentially the same because they can be made WITHOUT regard to any prior assertions about the existence of cake or assenting/dissenting response to said claim.

In short, existential claims and responses to them are a different animal

"I lack a belief in God" is a RESPONSE to someone else's positive claim that God exists or their question :"DO you believe in God?". As a RESPONSE, it is NEGATIVE regardless of how you word it!

Now "strong atheists" on the other hand... ;)

quote:
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I agree, which is why I try not to do that. Doesn't stop SOME PEOPLE fropm reading such INTO whatever I DO post though.
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When you say things like ""Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!" obviously meant to belittle those you disagree with (in this case, the "faithists") there isn't really much to "read into" your rather obvious sentiment.I suspect that no matter what my true intentions are, the characterization of me as someone out to belittle or ridicule everyone without regards for the arguments and evidence seems to serve you and you will not abandon this notion.

I will waste no more of your time(or mine) trying to defend myself then.


I wouldn't say that I am trying find 'God' but like I said, I envy those who do. As I read above (correct me if I am wrong), Death Rabbit believes in God, and RuneQuester believes in not believing in God.Consider this a correction then: I do NOT believe in not believing in God(that is a nonsense statement). I simply lack a belief in ANY gods for which I have been presented existential claims. My atheism is not a "worldview" or all encompassing belief system. It is a specific response to one question/claim regarding the existence of deities or the worship of such.
To argue otherwise is akin to saying if you do not believe that your mother is an alien then this is your religion or something you are making an important, positive tenet of your worldview. Your positive believe that your mother is not an alien colors adn obfuscates all attempts at critical analysis!


Sounds silly doesn't it?

Sounds silly doesn't it? That's the first thing you've said about your assertions that I can agree with ;) .

AMEN, Brutha :) !!

My father used to say that faith is not about believing in God, but about believing God. There is some meaning in that.

I don't really see faith as any sort of bargain, but I can fancy the thought. However, if we look at it this way, it's hardly a good bargain.

True, it helps you through. But it never helps you out. Ultimately, you always have to do your job, no matter what. No one will do things you have to do and no one will take your responsibility from you.

Faith helps you survive if you need the feeling that there is some sense in everything. Or that there is a purpose. However, faith brings troubles of its own. Your faith will be put to test. Doubts will haunt you and undermine whole your newly found certainty, too. Bad bargain, I think. Well, but there's something that keeps me there. Screw the bargain, screw the odds.

LEt me get this straight...you HONESTLY believe that I set out to make fun of your handle and not only that but you believe that the best I could come up with was "Death Rattle" as an insult?!? If I were into such childish behavior as insulting people whom, as far as I rememebr, I have never even had a disagreement with before, I PROMISE you my imagination is more fertile adn my wit much sharper than whomever would cough up "Death Rattle" to insult someone called "Death Rabbit".

Think about it for a minute.Let me get this straight. It was your fingers that typed my name wrong, mistake or not, and followed it up with a tone matching the perceived jab, and it's my fault I wasn't smart enough to deduce that your brilliance would have thought of something wittier to say, when you type and rant like someone in dire need of ritalin?

I suppose "Sorry, DR - that was a typo. You misread my intent..." was asking too much, huh?

THINK about THAT for A MINUTE!!!?!!!?!!? (sorry, I just had to see if typing like that made me sound more important or correct. It doesn't, I decided)
I suspect that no matter what my true intentions are, the characterization of me as someone out to belittle or ridicule everyone without regards for the arguments and evidence seems to serve you and you will not abandon this notion. So, nothing's your fault, huh? It's all everyone else's misunderstanding, is it?

I do humbly request you brush up on your manners a little. If, despite the highly antagonistic and condescending tone of your posts, you think people are reading things into your posts that you don't intend, you might want to read them out loud, emphasis and all, before hitting send from now on and see how polite it sounds to you. Honestly, you come off like a maniac.

Even though I agree with more than you think I do, I won't really address the rest, because you're focusing too much on the semantics of the wording of what I said, which completely misses the point. Feel free to volley another childish, nutty sounding jab at me. I won't answer it.

Sorry, Jag, for ruining your topic, buddy.

Faith is a tricky thing as shown by the disagreements already showing up in this thread.
Personaly I have never had much faith myself,I always thought it was kind of an easy way to deal with the harshness that can be life.

That opion changed drasticaly when I met my mother in law.This was a women of very deep religouse beleifs and more faith than I have ever seen in one person.

She dealt with multiple schelorosis all her life and it realy debilitated her by the time she was in her late thirties.She needed help to get around and basicaly could not care for herself.

Then she got cancer around three years ago and finaly passed away early this year.The point being I never once heard her complain about what she was dealing with and she always beleived it was in gods plan for her.

Even in the face of such odds she never stopped being involved with her community and did alot of volunteer work with her church.I never realized what a huge impact she had until the viewing before her funeral.There was an unbeleivable amount of people from all over.

She had touched so many other lives in her short time here it was truly humbling.I still beleive that her faith and belief in god is what made all this possiable for her,so I think faith can have a huge impact on not only your life but those around.

So this amazing women showed me that faith can have a huge impact on not only the life of the person but it can also affect many others around them.

@Dorion

Through her "faith", your mother-in-law was able to give you a gift that is "rare" indeed...a gift of peace and tranquility that can not exist in a reality without God.

I fear that I have gotten too weird...and as such will lose the humanists whom I have been debating with...but Dorion...your Step-Mom has built up stores in heaven...

Look to her everday for the strength you need to meet the demands of life...

[ April 24, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Hacken Slash ]

:toofar: :rolleyes:

Of late, we're running into the same problems over and over again here in the AoDA. And here, we have a good example of one of them, and coming after BTA's caution at that. If you've got something to say to somebody else individually, especially with such a confrontational tone as I've noticed here, it is to be communicated through PM or e-mail instead of a public posting.

It isn't really hard you know. All it takes is clicking on the person's profile, and then another click, instead of clicking on 'post reply'. Enough already.

Dorion, your mother-in-law is a good example who truly needed religion. To get MS which is a horrible afflication and then cancer on top of that without there being no purpose to it and the only reason to be blind chance or accident of birth is a thought too cruel to comprehend for most people. You more or less have to turn to faith to be able to live at all under such conditions and it is a good example of when strong religious faith can be a positive thing on a personal level. There are times when false comfort is better than no comfort at all.

But therin lies the question. She was probably in excruciating pain, but she still believed it was god's plan. This confuses me.

Yes you are not alone there Jaquar ,I think that is the part that confuses alot of people.

Joacqin sometimes I think it could be argued you are right about that.Sometimes if God exists or not could be irrelevant,but the belief in it may give the person the strength to face things they could not otherwise.

Before I start I'd like to say that I am a kind of person who has no idea whether god exists or not. But I like to think theres something waiting for us after our seemingly pointless lives. Its kind of comforting...

IMO my faith side thinks that god sometimes gives people life threatening diseases because it makes people stronger and allows them to do things a healthy person would never do.

My non faith side sticks with the old argument of "If god is such a good guy then why does he seemingly punish people from the moment they're born?"

Personally I really don't mind if God exists or not, if I was created by a freak accident in space time continum then so be it, the same with if I was carefully designed and created by some big guy in the sky. I live my life around others and try my best to respect their oppinions.

Jag live your life as you want, feel free to explore faith and if you find something then stick to it, if you don't then you don't, you won't miss anything either way IMO.

Note: sorry if this don't make sense...

Hacken Slash:


The "sounds silly doesn't it?" was not in reference to MY assertions. Go back and read the entire post.
Or are you now agreeing with me that such things are nonsense but you found it to deplorable a thing to simply say "I see your point now. I was in error"?


@Death Rabbit:


Let me get this straight. It was your fingers that typed my name wrong, mistake or not, and followed it up with a tone matching the perceived jab,In an effort to get at some understanding here I am going to ask how you judged the "tone" of my repsponse? I am not being facetious here I really would like to see where I could have presented my points better so as to avoid future misunderstandings.


and it's my fault I wasn't smart enough to deduce that your brilliance would have thought of something wittier to say, when you type and rant like someone in dire need of ritalin?I need ritalin? That is rich. Again, pot meet kettle...

On another thread Splunge called me "Keldor" and then went on to disagree with a point I had made.

I did not take offense as it was obvious to me he was not trying to insult me or he would have said something like "RuneQueer" or "RudeQuack".

Again I ask you, do you HONESTLY think that "Death Rattle" sounds like a deliberate attempt at insult? Is it inconcieveable that the word "rattle" registered in my head as a common word paired with "Death"(containing the same number of syllables and beginning with the letter 'D') rather than an attempt to sleight you? Feel free to answer this when you are finished jumping up and down adn tossing out your own insults.

I suppose "Sorry, DR - that was a typo. You misread my intent..." was asking too much, huh?I suppose simply pointing out that I had made the mistake in the first place sans vitriol adn your wife's "Molestor" comment was asking too much as well.

In any case Sorry about the typo DR. You misread my intent.

THINK about THAT for A MINUTE!!!?!!!?!!? (sorry, I just had to see if typing like that made me sound more important or correct. It doesn't, I decided)You are correct here that I should not have added the "Think about it for a minute". I was a bit 'rattled'(pardon the pun) by you and HS' attacks I suppose.

Again, I apologise.

However, in pointing out the error why did you see fit to capitalize "THINK about THAT FOR A MINUTE" and add all those "!!!!!!"s"? THis seems to be a strawman as I never did such in my original admittedly unecessary comment.

quote:
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I suspect that no matter what my true intentions are, the characterization of me as someone out to belittle or ridicule everyone without regards for the arguments and evidence seems to serve you and you will not abandon this notion.
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So, nothing's your fault, huh? It's all everyone else's misunderstanding, is it?Again, you misunderstand. My above was in response to the fact that you(as well as a few others) have ASSUMED certain things about me which are not demonstrated in my posts adn then went about attacking me based on those assumptions.

I am not bitter, angry, narrow-minded, anti-theistic, arrogant or suffering from delusions of grandeur. If you will assert or imply otherwise then I must ask for cites/refernces so that I may see how you infered such things.

I do humbly request you brush up on your manners a little. And I will make the same request of YOU. You can start my sending me a PM to air such attacks rather than hijack other threads.


If, despite the highly antagonistic and condescending tone of your posts,Again, "tone" is notoriously hard to assess in forum postings. I would like to know what I have said specifically that leads you to such conclusions(be sure to keep context in mind).


you think people are reading things into your posts that you don't intend, you might want to read them out loud, emphasis and all, before hitting send from now on and see how polite it sounds to you. Honestly, you come off like a maniac.*Sigh* Nice to see you again Mr. Pot...

Even though I agree with more than you think I do, I won't really address the rest,S'ok...I am getting used to that.


because you're focusing too much on the semantics of the wording of what I said, which completely misses the point.See now this is a prime example of the baseless allegations that lead to what you percieve as bad intent on my part.

WHERE have I paid to much attention to semantics?


HOW did I completely miss your point?


WHAT part of my arguments against faith above did not sound rational or logical to you and WHY?


Feel free to volley another childish, nutty sounding jab at me. I won't answer it.

Sorry, Jag, for ruining your topic, buddy.Yeah, I am noticing a trend here for excuses given in lieu of answering legitamate arguments/points(usually "Oh you are just trying to insult me so I didn't even read it!").

Does anyone here disagree with what I said on the subject at hand? I would like to hear dissenting opinion on the matter if for no other reason than it is good mental excercise.

[ Warning pending ] - Beren

[ April 24, 2004, 18:24: Message edited by: Beren ]

Does anyone here disagree with what I said on the subject at hand I do. But to discuss it would be off topic, so I'm going to go to PM.

@ Runequester
I agree with what you say most of the time, not with your methods, though. Your 'tone' :D is a bit harsh at times.

But! it takes two (or more) to let a discussion degenerate. And what I said to you can be said about others as well, IMHO. :/
I am just throwing this out there.

After seeing a rules violation yet again in disregard for warnings given both by myself and by BTA, this thread is closed.