We've had a couple of such discussions already and the subject has sort of popped up recently, although I'm not really able to say anything more specific, so here goes. There's even a poll. Each question contains a "just results" option so as to avoid random answers. If you think you don't understand a question or answer, feel free to PM me.

Assumptions:

Question 5 assumes that the current relationship is consensual. If it isn't consensual, it isn't a relationship, first of all.

All questions assume that the cheating activity is consensual. Rape is so obviously not cheating. I leave threats (from threatening to spread a nasty rumour to holding someone at gun point) to everyone's individual conscience.

Now, my answers:

1. It's acts what makes cheating. It takes a choice and an externally manifested one.
2. Acts make it, so without an act there's no cheating. But if the cheater stopped short of sex because he or she realised what he/she was about to do, it doesn't mean that the preceding making out and foreplay wasn't cheating (of a lesser kind than sex, of course).
3. It's never OK to cheat back. The first cheater probably takes more blame, but still.
4. It's never OK to cheat on someone who doesn't satisfy your needs. Not even if the person abuses you. It's OK to split and start a new relationship with the new person, but not to cheat.
5. Cheating is not permissible under any circumstances in a consensual relationship where you can always leave or where you have taken vows.
6. Consensual sex is always cheating if you're in a relationship with someone else.
7. So is making out. One doesn't make out with friends. When you're single, it's your problem. When you aren't single, you're cheating.
8. Flirting - depends. Joking around with friends about how sexy they look or whatever isn't cheating unless we are paranoid. But when obtaining satisfaction comes into play, it's cheating.
9. While hanging out isn't cheating, dating is. One doesn't just a get a date while he or she is in a relationship. The difference between hanging out and dating is not the same for all people, but everyone *feels* it.
10. Starting a new relationship without ending the previous one is cheating. In blunt words: a simple "it's over" makes the difference between splitting and cheating.
11. Giving other guys/girls a go is no excuse for cheating.

[ October 31, 2004, 14:37: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 11 question(s). 42 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: What do you consider cheating? (42 votes.)

What makes cheating? (Choose 1)
* Acts; feelings don't make cheating if you don't act on them; cheating without any feelings involved is still cheating - 69% (29)
* Feelings and thoughts; physical sexual acts are not important - 5% (2)
* Both acts and feelings - 21% (9)
* Something still different - 5% (2)
* Just show me the results - 0% (0)

Does an attempt need to be successful to make cheating? (Choose 1)
* Yes; cheating is all about attempting - 43% (18)
* No, because nothing has happened - 5% (2)
* Depends where it stopped and what made it stop - 52% (22)
* Just show me the results - 0% (0)

Is it OK to cheat back on someone unfaithful? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 10% (4)
* No - 86% (36)
* Just show me the results - 5% (2)

Is it ok to cheat on someone who does not satisfy you? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 5% (2)
* No - 90% (38)
* Just show me the results - 5% (2)

Is it permissible to cheat in any circumstances in a consensual relationship? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 17% (7)
* No - 74% (31)
* Just show me the results - 10% (4)

Is sex (intercourse) cheating? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 81% (34)
* Probably yes - 7% (3)
* No - 2% (1)
* Probably no - 2% (1)
* Depends - 5% (2)
* Just show me the results - 2% (1)

Is sexual activity that doesn't end in sex (petting, foreplay) cheating? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 69% (29)
* Probably yes - 19% (8)
* No - 2% (1)
* Probably no - 2% (1)
* Depends - 7% (3)
* Just show me the results - 0% (0)

Is making out cheating? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 62% (26)
* Probably yes - 19% (8)
* No - 0% (0)
* Probably no - 0% (0)
* Depends - 17% (7)
* Just show me the results - 2% (1)

Is flirting cheating? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 7% (3)
* Probably yes - 12% (5)
* No - 40% (17)
* Probably no - 7% (3)
* Depends - 33% (14)
* Just show me the results - 0% (0)

Is dating cheating? *There's a difference between hanging out and dating (Choose 1)
* Yes - 60% (25)
* Probably yes - 24% (10)
* No - 5% (2)
* Probably no - 2% (1)
* Depends - 10% (4)
* Just show me the results - 0% (0)

Is it OK to try out other men or women when you are in a relationship? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 2% (1)
* No - 95% (40)
* Just show me the results - 2% (1)

Ahhh, I see that most people share my opinion, promising.

I have never understood cheating. Why if you feel the need to snuggle with someone else than your partner are you still with your partner? Dump the sucker and fool around to your hearts content. If you want to cheat it means that you do not love your partner and there thus is no reason for him/her still being your partner. Cheating just adds a bunch of uncomfortable lies and deceit on a pretty simple situation.

If people don't love the partner they're cheating on, then why are they doing their utmost to keep it a secret ?

I tell you why... because they DO love the partner, except in kind of a peculiar way. You can either regard a relationship as something sacred, or have a loose opinion on it, both cases involve love, just in a different way. I had a girlfriend for 6 years, and i cheated on her at every turn, yet still i went back to her in the end. I didn't want her to know, because i didn't want to risk losing her, but i also couldn't stop doing what i did. It was all one big adventure to me i suppose, but i definitely loved my girlfriend, strange as it may sound.

And there are thousands of people just like me, and not just men either.

To justify my 'acts' answer to question one - everyone suffers temptation. Even being tempted is a feeling and a thought relating to a sexual act and since almost everyone is tempted (save a very small few with incredible beliefs or because they simply CAN'T be tempted) then if being tempted was cheating, almost everyone is guilty of it.

Question 2 of the poll is a little screwed up. The question is "Does an attempt need to be successful to make cheating?" and the answers are "Yes; cheating is all about attempting" - the "yes" means that you must be successful in your attempt at cheating (e.g. attempt to sleep with someone outside of your relationship and they agree to sleep with you) but then it says it says it is all about the attempt meaning "no" (e.g. the fact that despite all your attempts to cheat, you didn't actually cheat because you could't find someone to join you in your cheating).

And the other answer "No, because nothing has happened" - the "no" means that you were successful in cheating (e.g. you attempted to pick up a person other than your partner and sleep with them, and you succeeded and slept with them) then goes to say "because nothing happened" implying that you attempted but did not succeed.

The term "attempt" I think is wrong there. I think you mean 'stopping short' of sex because this question obviously relates to questions 7, 8, 9 and 10 so in turn is pointless to ask since it really encompasses questions 8, 9 and 10 when you are already asking them - no offence. If, however, you mean "attempt" as in you 'TRY' to cheat (e.g. pick someone up at a party with intention of sleeping with them and fail because they do not want to sleep with you, you do NOT rape them [which would be cheating on your partner because you had intercourse with someone else] or experience any forms of foreplay, kissing or dating because they did not want to but you were all for it - then you made an 'attempt' to cheat but did not actually cheat because the 3rd part of the cheating equasion - someone from outside the relationship - did not partake but was encouraged to do so). My response to the question would be "No, because the act of attempting to cheat is in fact cheating even if you can not find someone to cheat with you" because it's impossible to cheat if there isn't somebody other than your partner involved, however the very attempt at cheating is just as bad as cheating despite the fact that you could't find someone to cheat with you because you would have if you COULD find someone to cheat with you - maybe you'll try tomorrow and find someone but as of NOW, you are a cheater simply because you attempted to cheat.

Sorry about the long winded explanation, it just seemed like a more logical question to ask since questions 7, 8, 9 and 10 seem to answer your version of the question anyway - say if you answered "no" to questions 7, 8, 9 and 10 but "yes" to 6 then your answer to question 2 would have to be "no".

To justify my "yes" for question 5. there could be a situation where you are given permission to 'cheat' on your partner (e.g. threesome/foursome/manysome and for those of you with strange fetishes) or it's a matter of life and death (e.g. have sex with this person or we will kill you/them/someone else/all of the above) although they may seem very unlikely the question does have the "any situation" factor which means any possible situation - not any probable situation.

You could not have loved her enough if you cheated on her, nor could you have respected her enough for a fruitful relationship or you wouldnt have cheated on her.

I know that many do not share my view on it so for you your stance may very well work. I on the other can jsut not handle lies and deceit and if I got the urge to cheat I would ransack my relationship to see what I wanted the most, fool around with the woman in front of me or stay with my relationship.

Oh, and I havent answered the poll, it is weird.

Don't give me that "you didn't love her enough" and "you didn't respect her" crap, you don't know me at all, you can't look into my heart. I did love her and i did respect her, except in a different way than most people consider "normal". But that's exactly the point, what IS normal anyway ?

Pac man, what is normal is the majority concensus. What you did was not normal in the definition of 'love'. To love someone is to be only for them and devote yourself to them. It doesn't sound like you love/loved her, it sounds like you loved being in a relationship with her - which are two different things.

What's more, there are different types of love. The statement "I love Sarah" and the statement "I love pie" are using two different forms of 'love'. For example you do not love pie like you would love a person (unless you have a VERY strange fetish and thus you are not 'normal'). Yet you can love a person in different ways. I can love a best friend yet not engage in sexual relations with them since it is a 'camaraderie' type of love. There is a 'family' based love that (in everywhere but the far south) does not involve sexual relations either. There is the male-female (or male-male/female-female if you are homosexual) 'love' that can involve marriage (or not if you are homosexual), will most probably involve sexual relations but will most definitely involve complete and utter devotion. There is the light/personality 'love' where you might say "Oh I love that person" yet you don't actually know them, often referring to a celebrity where you really adore their personality/looks/acting ability etc.

I take it you loved this girl in a camaraderie way and you loved being in a relationship with her. You did not love her in the normal way. You could care about her and respect her but you did not love her since you betrayed her trust. Some of the most obvious synonyms for love is commitment or devotion - two parts of the love equation you did not fulfil.

Most of my answers are identical to Chevalier's, with a few exceptions:

2. An attempt is cheating. Suppose you were attempting to have sex with someone, and you were interrupted because your phone rang (to take a really stupid example) and you had to leave. The act hasn't occurred, but I REALLY wouldn't consider this to be not cheating. The absence of the act was purely circumstantial (This is in opposition to thoughts, in which case you just think but never even try to go for something substantial. Which is why I think thoughts are not cheating and attempts are)

3. I would have chosen a third option, because if my partner is cheating on me I will either have an explanation with her and try and understand why she felt the need to do so, or I'm breaking up. I'm neither going to stand there and do nothing nor go cheat on her because "she did it first". Since there was no 3rd option however, I went for "Yes"

8. Flirting - I said "Probably yes", mainly because I had in mind more serious flirt than the example Chev gave.

I won't comment on Pac man's post, because I've always been a bit black-and-white when it came to my relationships. Either things are going well, or they aren't. If they aren't, and we can't fix it, then there's no point in carrying on. Kinda simplistic, I know, but I can't see the point of dragging out a relationship when it's quite clear to me that one of us is looking for something else.

I understand your point and i agree with it to some extend, except i have a wider view on this particular situation. I'm not going any deeper into this than i already have, because, like i expected, most people don't understand it anyway. Perhaps you have to be in a similar situation sometime to catch my drift.

No, I do not know you nor can I look into your heart. I can just say what would have been the case with me if I had been in such a situation. If I had done that then I wouldnt have loved or respected the woman in question.

The big question is what the hell she was thinking though. Taking back your bum ass time and time again. :p

Joacqin, up until today she has no clue. I never told her anything. After we broke up in quite a healthy mutual understanding, somewhat 13 years ago now, we both went our seperate ways, keeping a friendly contact though. Occasionally we even got together again for a night of...erm..you know. :D So i never had to explain anything to her, which would have forced me to fall back on pathetic lies and such. I think if that would have happened, i would have come completely clean altogether, because i don't think i'm that much of an actor.

But think of it... if there wouldn't have been any love for her from my side, then why would i stick around her for 6 years ? You don't do that if it was just friendship. For a while i even had a feeling that this was it... that she was the one i was going to marry sooner or later, which was fine with me at that time.

Note that i am one of those people who don't believe in monogamy, simply because it's not human nature to stay with just one partner all of their lifes. But that's just me of course. ;)

Cheating doesn't mean that you don't love or respect the person at all. Nor does it necessarily imply in what way you love him or her (although it might). When loving or respecting enough is called, it probably touches on the following:

Loving enough: People who love are inclined to make sacrifices for the loved ones. The stronger the love, the more readiness to make sacrifices. In this instance, to stay away from other women (or men).

Respecting enough: Breaking a promise or failing someone's trust is a disrespectful act. A well respected woman is worthy of staying away from other women.

Love and respect together form commitment. If something's wrong with commitment, then love or respect isn't full. Or both aren't.

Again, it's not like I'm trying to judge someone's love. I'm focusing on cheating right now.

@Abomination: Yes, we can go into the attempt to attempt to attempt to attempt loop, but if we don't make the relation transitive, it should work. Basically: Is only an accomplished act cheating, or is an attempt cheating as well?

The answer here is tricky, I know. Personally, I believe that preparing to commit a cheating act is cheating on its own, but an unaccomplished act isn't equal to an accomplished one. So there's an objective difference, if they had sex or not (taking sex as an example), no matter what stopped them. Even just the phone ringing. As for earlier stages: if the person were determined to do what he or she almost did but were stopped by external factors - we had some kind of cheating (i.e. all things that preceded sex were cheating). But if the person were struggling to remain faithful and won the battle short of a seducer's bed, then I would focus on the person successfully resisting. Preceding parts would count as poor resistance rather than cheating. A person could also make a conscious decision to cheat, invite the man/woman over and start seducing him/her. Then, conscience could drive the person away from cheating and ultimately the supposed seduction target could leave unmolested without suspecting anything.

One more argument to defend circumstancial absence of act is that we don't know what would have happenned if they phone hadn't rung. Until it happens, we can't be 100% sure.

Now Part Two:

I would like to ask some explanation regarding a couple of answers I've seen in the results:

1. One person has ticked the option that acts, feelings or both don't make cheating and that it's something still different. What makes cheating then?

2. What are the circumstances where you consider cheating permissible?

I understand that some people mean gun point rape here, i.e. without physically breaking through the victim's resistance but placing the victim between a "do it or die" choice. I think it isn't really cheating in such circumstances, as there's hardly any consent. Even if the person has an option to die. However, in a situation like "either we keep it civil or I'll tie you up and do it without your help", I would consider it cheating if the victim cooperated.

3. "Depends" answers answers. I understand that the "depends" answers come from Abomination, who believes it isn't cheating when you're given permission. However, I suppose we're going to have more such answers, so I would like to invite people who choose this answer to elaborate a bit.

4. "Probably yes" answers about dating, making out, foreplay and sex (flirting has grown into a separate issue). I would like to hear some explanation. I understand that some of these answers can mean "it's yes unless he/she allows it" or "yes unless it's a life and death situation". However, there could be other reasons. So, why "probably yes" and not a definite "yes"?

5. Someone has ticked "foreplay isn't cheating". However, there's no "making out isn't cheating" tick. What gives? I mean, if French-kissing is cheating, how come sexual touching isn't?

[ October 31, 2004, 17:57: Message edited by: chevalier ]

There's another form of cheating, it happens during the act with your very own partner. It's when you close your eyes and picture someone else. I must admit it happened to me occasionally, not intentional, but it happened nonetheless. Some may say this means nothing, but explain THAT to your girlfriend and your up for some rough moments. :D

I do that all the time, why would you ever come into a situation where you needed to explain that to your girlfriend though?

But doesn't it feel like cheating to you ? It felt kinda awkward to me. It's not that i had an ugly girlfriend, quite the opposite, but apparently in my mind i was already a few stages ahead or something.

No, not really awkward. People think so many things and for me it wasnt about someone I realistically wanted to have sex with or something. Just more spice or something. Man we are getting personal here.

However, in a situation like "either we keep it civil or I'll tie you up and do it without your help", I would consider it cheating if the victim cooperated.I take it if that is EXACTLY what is going to happen. Because it's rather unlikely that someone is able to tie someone else up without resorting to physical violence or at least threatening phycial violence. In that case it would be better to just 'keep it civil' than risk getting cut up and if you're in that situation wouldn't it be wiser to try to appease your assaulter in every way in order to not run the risk of angering them? They do, after all, probably have your life in their hands - the last thing you want to do is piss them off becuase they obviously have something wrong and might be close to snapping and killing someone, namely you.

Resisting keeps it external, cooperation makes it internal and incurs responsibility. I'm not the judge of that responsibility, but it is there and is not a non-issue. In this case, the rapist probably wants to keep it as similar to normal intercourse as possible, building an illusion of consent (impossible to achieve while literally pinning someone, hard to achieve with gun point, either). If we condone "keeping it civil", it would tend to extend to situations like "maybe I have no gun, but I'm bigger and heavier than you and it's not like they will make it in time if you scream", which is absurd.

However, any circumstances other than being threatened with death or mutilation?

I've also noticed more "depends" and "probably yes" answers, plus a "no" on dating and a "probably no" on petting. Care to share a couple of arguments? I'm really curious.

There seem to be a few insecure people here if flirting is considered cheating.

Depends on the nature of the flirting Tassadar. Some people can flirt to 'line guys/girls up' for future reference. A phone number here, a phone number there all while you're still attached to someone.

[ November 01, 2004, 00:45: Message edited by: Abomination ]

For example you do not love pie like you would love a person I think this entirely depends on what type of "pie" we're talking about. :D

There are varying definitions for love out there? A normal definition and something else? Didn't know that. I always assumed that love was universal and all-embracing. Some principle existing in its own right, independent of human perception. Is this not so?

In other words, I'm on joacqins side here, sorry pac man. I certainly cannot feel loved if I withhold such crucial information from my beloved. I want to be accepted with all my flaws, thoughts, ideals - if I only show what I want to show, how can my love really mean me?

Aldeth: was that your attempt at a Splunge impersonation? ;)

@Darkthrone - it was my attempt at humor, however crude that may be. I do not consider it a Splunge impersonation as it lacks the usual wit we see from his comments, plus his are usually a hell of a lot funnier than that. I can try anyway.

BTW - I agree with your premise and your thoughts concerning pac man, yet I must however, reserve judgement. As pac man has clearly indicated, he is not giving us the entire story. Though it may be unlikely, it may be that the part of the story he does not wish to divulge represents extenuating circumstances that make his actions less wrong (for lack of a better term).

Aldeth, don't hide your light under a bushel (got that out of a dictionary for idioms - sounds terrible...). It made me smile and I would have attempted something similar had I seen it on time. :grin:

You might be right in your assessment of pac man's motives. I gave the whole issue a long and hard thinking some years ago. During my time at university I was in a situation akin to pac man's. My girlfriend did cheat on me several times - and told me all about it each time. I loved her, so I forgave her.

On the other hand, I was no saint as well. I did cheat on her time and again. However, I loved her. So I forgave me. I didn't need to tell her, because I was sure my feelings towards her hadn't been affected - things only would have been complicated. Or so I thought. And I was conviced of it.

I kept this attitude until I couldn't overlook the fissures in our relationship any longer. Did I really love her? I certainly had no complete respect for her. Nor did she respect me to the fullest. I felt superior to her, because I wasn't prone to emotional stress - I didn't suffer because of a bad consciousness. Is that a sign of love?

Never.

*sigh*

Well, whatever. I'm more mature now. :rolleyes:

Hah!

Well spoken. I have to say, if I had the guts, and I knew Tal wouldn't hunt me down and kill me, I'd post a "what's your favorite type of pie" poll in the whatnots area, with of course an option relevent to my insinuation above.

I also agree that age is very important when considering these things. I have noticed such about myself as well. Not that I cheated on women in the past, but I found that I was easier to break up with women when I was younger. Probably because I wasn't really in love although I thought differently at the time. I think as we age we gain a greater respect for the feelings of others. The only reason I can think for this is that a greater range of life experiences allows us to have empathy for others, as it is more likely we have been placed in a similar situation.

i can't help to think are you in a project or something?


no aldeth, it was to chevaliar since he is the law student here, no?

[ November 02, 2004, 10:27: Message edited by: teekc ]

@ teekc - is your post in reference to mine? If it is, then you have to speak more plainly, as I don't understand what you mean, so I can't answer your question.

Hmmm... Quite a large number of "depends" in the making out question, and more than for sex or petting, so I understand permission from the partner isn't really the factor. I can see someone not requiring fidelity from the partner, but I don't really see anyone saying "OK, you can make out, but sex is a no-no". So, in what circumstances is making out not cheating?

For me is simple: don't do what you don't want someone else do to you.

I thought making out and flirting was one and the same. I put depends on there, as I know I would continue flirting with my friends. Friends I know I'll never have anything to do with that way. Of course, it does depend in that I would have to be considerate of my partner as well.

Anyway, you don't cheat on someone you love. If you have a relationship in which both parties agree that a certain loose-minded attitude is acceptable (pair switching etc, trying out things that aren't normal) then it's a different matter. Then, it wouldn't be cheating. Cheating on someone and then running back to them equals loving yourself, and loving the attention and the safety that person gives you. Not telling them only makes things easier on yourself and removes the chance of paying for the consequences of your own actions, which again comes from loving yourself.

Certainly I believe that strong affection can come in many different forms. But as said, you need to find a person suitable for you in case your view differs too much from the norm. Everyone can see what's wrong with a relationship where person 'A' is everything to person 'B', but person 'B' is just one of many and a place to sleep in for person 'A'.

This poll was a good idea though. Surprisingly many openly admit how twisted their views are. And knowing how many people succesfully lie to themselves, the amount of cheaters and potential cheaters is about what I'd expect this day and age.

I guess the poll would need an additional question determining wether the questions were asked of a normal (or not so normal anymore) person considering a normal relationship, a "different" person considering a normal relationship, or a "different" person considering a "different" relationship. A lousy way to say it I know. Simply put, what I mean is do you consider cheating from the viewpoint of your partner, or from your own viewpoint? Here we can also ask, are you capable of loving another more than you love yourself? Does, or should that kind of love even exist?

As a conclusion I'll tell my views on this 'love' stuff:

I don't believe nearly all of us people are even able to love another. Love does not make compromises. It is that fantasy out of a book that is completely one-dimensional and only works when it is absolutely unconditional, and puts the interest of the person you love way before your own. Anything else is not love. It may be affection, strong affection even, but not love. And truly, this affection that enables many people to get along with numerous other people is mistaken for love all the time. But that real love can only exist between a few people possessing a certain type of personality. Love, is something that overrides logic and natural instincts. Something that overrides all reason, egoism and survival. Some might call that naivé. I call that honesty. And fantasy.

Most people on this planet, including me, have never felt love nor been loved. Motherly and fatherly love, certainly (I would hope at least). But that takes a different form and far less luck than the love of a lover and a partner in life.

A lousy way to say it I know. Simply put, what I mean is do you consider cheating from the viewpoint of your partner, or from your own viewpoint?Tricky distinction, I know. However, when making the poll, I didn't really stick to just one of those views. I'm not a big fan of anything close to double standards, so I sort of forced the answering person to apply the same standards to him or herself and the partner. And when asking if something was cheating or not, I didn't mean acceptable, permissible, normal. I meant cheating or not. However, in the question "is cheating permissible in any circumstances", I meant whatever the person considered cheating without going into what it was.

I don't know if any of the feelings I've ever had for a girl or woman could be classified as true love, but even if the only thing linking me with the woman were friendship, I still wouldn't cheat. If I don't want to be faithful to that person, then I shouldn't be with that person. And if I want to be faithful, I am.

As for flirting, I pretty much share your attitude. Nothing wrong about innocent flirting with friends, which is kind of a joke by nature, anyway. Nothing wrong about exchanging a couple of compliments in a courteous conversation. It's natural that people meet people, even if sometimes it leads to getting a new relationship. After all, however, if I weren't the right man for my girl, I'd rather she were happy with someone else than unhappy with me. Still, there are some borders and I guess making and accepting advances is a good description. So far as I go, girls who did that are exes now. When you lie sick in your house and your girlfriend fools around with jocks, jumps on their laps and starts sweet talk, your views on flirting take a certain adjustment... Same if you discover that the woman who chatted with you "like that" had a husband or steady boyfriend. There are some borders that shouldn't be crossed. As I said somewhere above, they are different for different people and probably different for each couple, but they are there. Even if it's too random and impersonal to make classic cheating (classic cheating being having a side-affair or one night stand or some such), loose conduct is still sort of cheating on the partner.

[ November 02, 2004, 17:44: Message edited by: chevalier ]