Tragedy (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/02/netherlands.filmmaker/index.html)

A famous dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was shot down in broad daylight this morning in our capital. Van gogh had an outspoken opinion on several controversial subjects such as the islam.

This is what happens in the country where the right of free speech is or better to say was strongly upheld. This tragedy came to close after the Pim Fortuyn incident two years ago. Pim was a politician with a outspoken opinion on anti-immigration. He was also shot down for speaking out loud subjects we all think about.

Amsterdam is grieving as 'the dam' is filling up with furious dutch right now.

I know sweden had their tragedy a while back when Annah Lind was stabbed to death. It seems it's becoming a sick trend or something.

Are these kind of murders normal day life in your countries or is Holland coming down? What is happening to the world when one cannot voice his opinion any more.

I realise that, with the war in Iraq and the election in america and the starvation and oppression in I don't know how many countries, this may seem a small event but for a while we thought peace had relatively returned to our country. And now this!

Rest in Peace Theo van Gogh

Closing of with a dutch saying which is very appropriate here. I can't translate it because it is for one it wouldn't come over right and two it would get in trouble with some mods even though I hope they won't erase it for not being the english language.

NEDERLAND GAAT NAAR DE KLOTEN!

[ November 02, 2004, 23:42: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

well, atleast the cops got the guy right way, and he got a bullet in the leg to boot

Yeah and he'll be out in ten years if it ain't sooner. How's that for justice.

Lunatics have always targeted famous and controversial figures. Look at Lennon, Reagan or Warhol. I does however seem like it happens more often nowadays or is it just because similar cases in the past have been forgotten?

Well, from I have heard about Van Gogh, it could have been worse, someone not being a jackass could've died.

But still, it's a life of a Human, so I feel sorry for his family. He looked pretty funky on that photo in your link though, quite drugged. ;)

Also, it's Anna Lindh, not Annah Lind

van gogh wasn't a jackass, he may come over like one and a drug addict but he was certainly not. He made some good movies and he and very few with him didn't scare away from discussing subjects which need discussing but people are afraid to discuss them.


The biggest problem now is that the guy who shot him is of maroccan background which has been a prickly subject in our country as of late.

Related to that, the fact that Mijailovic (the man who stabbed Lindh) was of Yugoslavian descent and that it really hasnt stirred any xenophobic or racist feelings here have made me almost a bit proud.

van Gogh's latest movie called Submission was about domestic abuse in muslim families, it showed naked muslims covered in with a tranparent burkha(they aren't really naked then, but you could still see their breasts) and they were covered with anti-feminim texts of the Quran.

He wasn't a jackass, he was just against breaking the law in name of a religion..

Jackass or not, I didn't like this fellow at all. You can't say this guy wasn't 'slightly' offensive. I wouldn't miss him at all. I don't say I'm glad he's dead, but to be honest, I don't really care he is.

What I do care about, is why he was murdered. I'm affraid the sh*t will hit the fan soon enough and racial calamities occur.
I'm also affraid that murder will become the solution for dealing with people with a different opinion.

Bad Karma!

The really annoying thing is that despite the fact that we are supposed to live in a century where religions do not direct the actions of a man as they used too, these outbrakes of violence for religious reasons remind us all that idiots exist everywhere and they can wear different kind of robes to hide their stupidity.
I don't know the guy i haven't seen any of his films but as with Salman Rushdi who has a death contract hunting him, i really despise these acts of zealot which does nothing more other than drawing use back into the Dark age

It's a shame that it comes to this; by all accounts, the guy was somewhat bigoted and insulting fundamentalists is not a smart way to ensure your continued existence. I don't think that what this guy was doing was noble or valuable though. By and large, the people who raise ethnicity, race or religion as a segregation issue have a strongly anti-(race/ethnicity/religion) bias.

Still, he didn't deserve to die, and this will only inflame tensions and make this guy into a martyr and poster-child for people who share his beliefs. I say give his killer a fair trial and sentence; the damage he will cause to his own people and beliefs should be punishment enough beyond that, especially if he understands the cause.

Thank God nobody gunned down Pauline Hanson, is all I can say. We just put her in jail instead (briefly) for electoral fraud... ah, the system works.

Not the smartest man I guess. In New Zealand we have a saying "Don't poke the bear" (despite not even having bears in New Zealand) which pretty much means: don't piss off someone who can and most probably will kill you. This doesn't mean not to oppose evil, but in most circumstances yelling about how unjust or stupid a religion is - a religion that has built a reputation for possessing fanatics - isn't the smartest thing to do.

Despite not being a smart thing to do, he was pretty noble in my opinion: speaking out against the wrongs of a religion and the use of religion as a defence against justice.

The real sad part is that the Dutch people are trying very hard to be tolerant and politically correct towards a very UNtolerant group of people, who literally turned their backs to our society. And that has to stop.

I saw this coming from miles away, the only question was who, when and where. Hirsi Ali can never go out in public EVER again without the protection of armed bodyguards. Same story goes for Geert Wilders. This is not a country i want to live in, if nothing can be done about this. Justice department knows of every mosque where hatred is being preached, hatred towards Israel, America, and the decadent western way of life, they know which schools don't cooperate when it comes to integration, they know the names and whereabouts of somewhat 150 radical muslims, and they do NOTHING. And it's so easy, wrap em up and kick em back to to where they originate from, there they can preach hatred as much as they want, but NOT in my house.

Abomination - I have never before heard the phrase "Don't poke the bear" and I probably live somewhere within 40km of you. Amazing the things you learn on these Boards.

Yes, and I hope you spread the good word of what not to do to bears, despite there not being bears in New Zealand... So don't be poking them, hmm? :p

The sad thing, Pac man, is that you can't convict somebody of a crime that they might commit based on their prejudices. Freedom of speech works both ways - those who oppose something and those who approve of it both have the right to free speech. Be thankful that they actually caught the person who murdered Van Gogh. However you can't arrest someone for hating somebody else. You can only arrest them if they actually commit a crime and then the judge will decide whether the hatered is an issue when it comes to sentencing.

Well, preaching that they want every Jew and American to die seems criminal enough to me, those things simply cannot be tolerated. When neo nazis announce a parade or a march, everyone is at their toes to prevent it, sometimes they don't even get permission for such a gathering, so why allow muslims to preach their filth in public ?

How's ol' Salam Rushdie doing these days? Is he still Down Under in Australia?

Also, welcome to the real world.

Not that I know of, ej.

so why allow muslims to preach their filth in public ?Because the neo-nazis are easily identified as a bunch of hoodlums where as there are different sects of muslims - the fanatics and the peaceful ones. Not to mention, you can not be arrested for being a neo-nazi.

Recently I've been wondering more and more about a world without any believe at all. How would that world look like? In my opinion it would be a lot more peaceful.

@master of Nuhn

Honestly I think you are too biased as a religious person Mon. Sure van Gogh voiced his opinion in a way that got to every religious person in the country. I find it refreshing, who cares if he swears in every statement, it is but a way of expressing yourself. He doesn't strap TNT on his body and explode in a market.

[ November 03, 2004, 09:26: Message edited by: Apeman ]

True, but i have to add something to that though. The lines of decency were crossed time and time again by van Gogh, hurling more and more insults towards muslims. Now i know that in this country you can say whatever you want, but if someone keeps insulting me, over and over again, sooner or later i will bite a chunk out of his ass, you gotta know when to stop and Theo didn't know that. It was only a matter of time before someone who wouldn't take it any longer would step forward.

Then why hasn't every rapper on this planet been killed yet? They have a habit of insulting more than just one group of people. The fact that this person targetted muslim fanatics is what got him the bullet in the skull, not his swearing.

@Apeman,
you're probably right about me being biased. But being of a religion doesn't mean I'm like all the others of this religion. Not all muslims are the same, nor are all christians. And remembering the lot of what Van Gogh had written, he doesn't see or want to see the difference within one religion.
Van Gogh had a nag to take an average muslim and bombard him as an extremist.

Of course, I rather see all extremists burning at the stake, whether christian, muslim or atheist. And if it depends on me, a lot of immigrants would be sent back (if it could be done in a proper way).
I often had the feeling that he started with one minor thing and ended up with scattered pieces of muslim extremist.
Freedom of Speech, okay. Freedom of Insult, rather not.

He had written about christians one time. Mentioned something about christians I had nothing to do with. But I'm a christian and people know. People reflected what he said on me. It was a simple thing, so I didn't care much. But if this happens to muslims, about more important matters, I can imagine they (and I) would get really pissed. (As Pac Man mentioned)

Edit:
Abomination, I don't know exactly. But Rap is music that not everybody cares to listen too. Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were not rappers. One was a politician, drawing quite some attention to say the least. The other was a columnist/filmdirector, being on television, in the papers etc. I think the impact on people is much heavier than a musician's. (??)

The other was a columnist/filmdirector, being on television, in the papers etc. I think the impact on people is much heavier than a musician's. (??) Hardly. You'd be surprised how much influence musicians (pfft, calling rappers musicians, the world HAS reached a new low) have - at least in the US and NZ. Not everybody in turn cared to listen to Van Gogh either I would imagine.

Perhaps not, but his insults attracted more attention than he'd bargained for.

Seems like one's continued breathing depends on who is critizised. Moore harshly attacks Bush in a not always appropriate way, and is still among us. Van Gogh pointed out the misery of some women in muslim culture - now he is dead. Oh, and labeled a bigot, too.

A little while ago a docu was aired here, reporting of muslim women in Germany who are forced into marriage - which is, of course, against our laws. In case they deny their families its time to go underground, or end up dead. The docu also informed that certain books became popular with certain muslims; books about the treatment and position of women in general. Books recommending violence against women should they fail to accept their place.

The team of reporters investigating for this docu went in search for muslims to discuss and visited mosques. Not peaceful conversation ensued... the reporters were physically attacked and kicked out of the mosques. Not even the camera filming prevented it. The main muslim organisation in Germany (I think its properly translated as 'Council of Muslims') was approached to make a statement, but refused to even meet the reporters.

Muslim women-in-flight, when interviewed, accused the german society to look the other way, leaving them to fend for themselves, doing anything but taking a stance against the abuse they are being dealt. Why we ignore their plight? Because its a touchy topic and we cant take the risk that some political correct people proclaim: "By and large, the people who raise ethnicity, race or religion as a segregation issue have a strongly anti-(race/ethnicity/religion) bias." Yes.
Therefore we think it wise to ignore what is happening right in front of our faces. We are multicultural, after all, our standards and laws dont apply to all who live in our country.

A guy spoke up - oh and look what happened to him. But I am sure I am the only one who feels something is wrong here and that the only way to comment on it is that not all muslims are like that.

Interestingly the docu I mentioned was aired late in the night. Better not being too obvious about it, someone might take offense and call us intolerant. Feels funny that we have to be so... silent and quite in our own country.

@Mon

I don't think he saw a small radical group as a representative of the whole muslim religion. Point is he kinda made it look that way to the world which was not that smart if you look at it now. He's not stupid though, he said himself one day that he was too arrogant for protection and he send those guards away. He was making a point to the world and somewhere I think he meant to say 'kill me now and you prove I was right all along'

Anyway I know the difference between that small group and the whole religion. I also think it's getting out of hand for the last few years and measures will have to be taken as you said, although not the stakeburning as I assume was a joke.

I saw a documentary once where they interviewed several muslim woman about when it is appropriate for their husband to physically abuse them. They answered with 'burning the food' 'talking back to my husband'
These were normal households here in holland mind you so I wonder how far these 'customs' are intwined within their religion.

These customs are deeply rooted, and they don't want anyone to interfere, unfortunately this is MY country, not theirs.

Not too long ago i interfered in a situation where an Arab man was beating up his wife. It happened on the outer ballustrades of the appartment building i live in, and he was doing it right in front of his doorstep, so everyone could see it. I was alarmed by screams from people standing on their balcony's across the street, they were yelling at him to stop what he was doing, but he kept beating and kicking her, he even busted in his own frontdoor, he went completely berserk. I live one level higher, and went down. When i entered the ballustrades i told him to stop, but he started cursing me out in Arab, so i whacked him in the nose as hard as i could. He went down and didn't feel like coming up again. However now his wife started yelling at me, she even spit on me. In disbelief i went back upstairs, i couldnt believe that THAT was my "thank you". I assume she rather takes a beating from her hubby then that some stranger beats HIM up.

Ah well, screw them then. Next time i won't lift a finger, i'll even cheer the guy on from my own balcony, and play The Prodigy's "smack my ***** up" as loud as possible with all windows open.

I don't think he saw a small radical group as a representative of the whole muslim religion. Point is he kinda made it look that way to the world That's my main problem with the guy. ;)

Also, when people were showing their emotions, he enjoyed to make fun of them. Not in a sarcastic way, but really cynical and low. Even after their death.
More, calling muslims 'goatf**kers', Mohammed a childraper and Jesus the rotten fish of Nazareth wouldn't help you either. That's just as stupid as calling homosexuality an infectuous disease. If you want to make something clear to people, do it in a respectable way.

That was generally why I didn't like him. Still, it's a sad thing what happened.

The deeply rooted customs is a different thing, but I like to see it changed. If these muslim women don't mind their men are beating them, sad but okay. If christians see sex as a way to get children and not for enjoyment, sad but fine. As long as they don't expect me to have the same opinion.

I think she felt bad because she lost face. Muslim men aren't the only ones who have been brainwashed into thinking wifebeating is acceptable, the women have been brainwashed too.

Some of these posts are horrifying, implying, or plainly stating, that van Gogh deserved what he got, followed by a hypocritical disclaimer that it's too bad he had to die, accompanied by a pious heavenward glance. The man was murdered in a particularly brutal fashion for exprssing an opinion that opposed brutality and oppression; this in a supposedly free and tolerant country.

Some of the other posts aren't much better, saying plainly that one mustn't express an opinion that might upset a fanatic because he might get upset and hurt you. Too bad, since fanatics get upset about damn near everything that's outside the brick wall of their mindset. And all we can do, according to these brave souls, is shut up and take whatever's dished out to us.

If you have a poisoner in your living room, do you ask him to stay for dinner, or do you put him out of your home? This is no easy question in a democratic society that prides itself on its tolerance, but when someone who is a distinct outsider settles in another culture, I believe he has a duty to accomodate himself in at least a minimal way to the accepted norms of that culture. He has no right to outrage those norms and then claim he's being stigmatized unjustly for his behavior. "Hostages in your own home" is probably putting it too strongly, but it's something to ponder.

Matter of fact, yeah...in a way he DID bring it on himself. Why was it necessary to insult an entire race of people over and over again ? It's not that it happened once or twice, it happened at every turn where he got in the picture, as if he was on some kind of personal crusade or something. Like i said, nobody deserves to die like that, but if you keep insulting people long enough, and i DO mean insult them DEEPLY, sooner or later even the most decent man loses his patience.

I'm not fond of Islam either, but i don't put my message in films, or write it down in collumns for popular newspapers. This man had a lot of influence with his tongue and his pen, and he used them as venom. Over the years he made a lot of enemies, among Christians, Muslims, Jews, and even the Royal family, he simply did not know when to stop. He got death threats, he was offered around the clock protection, which he declined, it was like if he was looking for this to happen.

Again, nobody should die like this, but in all fairness, i hated that guy when he was still alive. He was nothing but a groce, sweaty, chainsmoking loudmouth, who only seemed to enjoy himself when he could insult someone or something.

To be honest, i won't lose any sleep over his death.

Since I don't live in the Netherlands, I wasn't aware that Theo van Gogh was such a provocative guy, seemingly going out of his way to be as obnoxious as possible to one and all. I still don't think this justifies his being shot, stabbed, and having a note pinned to his chest with a knife in the public streets. Did his work advocate violent action, or was it opinion, however strongly expressed? If the latter, then I'll stand by my earlier post. (Perhaps he refused police protection because he believed he lived in a society where opinion could be expressed freely, without fear.)

IMO, whether his comments were originally justified or not, his death justifies them by itself.

How ironic, an anti-extremist has been made a martyr.

Some of the opinions being expressed in this thread are truly frightening

Well, me being in my own little corner of the world, I'd never heard of van Gogh before today.

And though I myself follow Islam, I support the basic human rights of freedom and free speech, and on that basis alone, I'd say his death is a sad thing.

It is sad because it highlights some of the worst things about human beings, as a people.

That being said, I cannot say I'm going to miss him and his anti-Islamic feelings...

I too live in the Netherlands and these problems kept me busy long before Theo van Gogh's or Pim Fortuyn's death. I respect our Islamic countrymen for the most part. In my opinion it's the 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are the troublemakers around here. I always had a more right-winged perspective of what to do with those people who don't respect our country and the rules that apply to people living in them.

I must say that this changed when I yesterday heared about my brother who was beaten by one of those North-Afrikans of the 3rd generation. My brother is a soccerplayer (not proffesionally, but as a hobby). My father is a referee for that team. My brother was watching a game where my father was referee when he noticed one of the "fans" of one of the playing clubs was making unpleasand remarkes concerning my father. When my brother asked this person if he could stop that he got a fist in his face. He got several blows to the head and he was kicked in the stomach. When other people noticed this, my father saw it too. When he ran to help my brother he got punched in the face too. Then the guy who did all the beating ran away.

My brother is afraid, but not badly injured. The thing that has changed is that my brother and father would always notify the police. But now, since this murder, they both are affraid the guy who did it would take his revenge. The only thing this guy is facing is punnishment from the Dutch Soccer-organisation KNVB. But the only thing they can do has to do with his soccer hobby.

I do not like this world any more. I am not someone who crumbles under this kind of thing, I am not affraid or anything, but this isn't the world I want my future child(ren) to live in...

Now I did this post I'm feeling relieved. Thanks for listening/reading!

Yet more threats:

"Stop the attacks on our mosques, schools and the Muslim community in Holland ... before you pay a heavy price," said the statement attributed to the Islamic Tawhid Brigades, which claimed responsibility for bombings last month in Egypt.

The Islamic Tawhid brigades is full of ****, bring it, i'd like to see them do something besides filling Islamic sites with their lame jihad stories. They are just a bunch of kids with too much free time on their hands, who made a hobby out of making empty threats.

They have nothing whatsoever to do with the bombings in egypt, that's what they wish. The Israeli police had a completely different stories. It's just a bunch of hamas wannabees, not even worth giving attention.

The Islamic Tawhid brigades is full of ****, bring it, i'd like to see them do something besides filling Islamic sites with their lame jihad stories. They are just a bunch of kids with too much free time on their hands, who made a hobby out of making empty threats.

They have nothing whatsoever to do with the bombings in egypt, that's what they wish. The Israeli police had a completely different stories. It's just a bunch of hamas wannabees, not even worth giving attention. Agreed.

Hiding behind a groupname which only is seen on the internet is just pathetic. And all those "brave warriors of the Islam" who show themselves on tv with every part of there body covered with clothing so that only there eyes are revealed is, in my opinion, something for scared men who where bullied at school and are afraid of the world around them so they don't show there faces on tv. If you *really* are such a tough guy you would show us your face.

Bah :r

Things are just getting started (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3998347.stm)

After the burning down of a mosque and a catholic church this week in the Netherlands, this morning the police began a raid in The Hague in an urban part of town. Seemingly there are 8 north african man barricading the home and throwing grenades. The police, marines and special forces have surrounded the areo and even prohibited flying in a seven kilometer radius.

These things didn't happen in the netherlands and even if they don't say it yet this is related to last weeks murder.

I wonder where it stops.

Don't know where it stops, but it generally starts with public sentiment drifting to the right.