I recently signed up to take the Nature Challange on David Suzuki's website, at http://www.davidsuzuki.org

I urge everyone to join the tens of thousands of others who have taken
the Nature Challange. It's simple: visit
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WOL/Challenge/ . Sign up and choose at least three of the following:

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances
3. Don't use pesticides
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week
5. Buy locally grown and produced food
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit
8. Choose a home close to work or school
9. Support alternative transportation
10.Learn more and share with others

Look how easy these things are. Being environmentally friendly is not difficult, it merely requires a little knowledge of how. Even if you already do half the things on that list, I urge you to sign up anyways. There's always a need to be more environmentally friendly.

Always remember that it is the individual that consumes the energy and eats the meat and uses the pesticides. It is the individual that can cut back on these things. It is the individual that has the power to slow climate change, to reduce the damage humanity is causing. The individual has the power; the individual is you. Take action.

[ November 13, 2004, 19:02: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

Hey, I already do 4 of those, but I could always add more. As of now, here's the 4 that I'm already doing:

4. I eat meat-free meals 1-2 days a week or so.
7. I walk to school and take the train whenever I need to go somewhere distant.
8. School is a mile away; a good walking distance.
9. I support the train system in our fine city.

[ November 13, 2004, 02:59: Message edited by: Rednik ]

Awesome! I'm glad to hear that you already do some of those, and am even more glad that you are willing to do more!
Number 1 and Number 10 are great suggestions for those who are already environmentally friendly. 1.) Reducing energy consumption is always of paramount importance. 10.) Spreading the word and getting others to become more environmentally friendly is the biggest way for an individual to make a difference.
I hope to see more people take the challange and help to protect our fragile environment!

How does one go about reducing energy consumption if one lives in an apartment? As for number 10, I'll probably link some of my friends to this tonight.

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%
I am decreasing my use every month, this can't be too hard to do.
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances
Done and Done.
3. Don't use pesticides
Pesti what?
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week
Vegetarian. NEXT!
5. Buy locally grown and produced food
Done.
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle
I don't use cars, only bikes.
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit
See above.
8. Choose a home close to work or school
See above.
9. Support alternative transportation
Of course. As I said, I don't use cars.
10.Learn more and share with others
Spreading my propaganda is what I do, every day.

Question: Is fish a meat?

Awesome Caleb!!

@Rednik: Reducing energy consumption in an apartment would be a little harder because you can't improve on the insulation. Can you control the heating / AC in your own apartment? or is it an apartment wide setting? If you can control it, turning heating / AC down will help to reduce energy consumption. If not, then there's even more you can do! Go to the board of the apartment, or whatever they head-honchos are called, and ask them to turn it down to save energy.

@Jaguar: Personally, I consider it a meat in every respect. However, there is a clear answer here, given the context. Yes: look at the decimation of fish populations globally. Canada especially.

Managed to talk my father into lowering the temperature in the apartment, so point 1 is now completed.

That's for you right-wing nutcases who believe us leftist living in a world which can't work, well, IT DOES!! ;)

Well done Caleb. If only more people did as much as you... *sigh*

Um, am doing a lot of that stuff.... for example, I don't even hacve a car :D

would work on lowering the temp, but the landlord has yet to fix the stupid thermothingy on the heater, making that impossible :(

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%
In the process of upping the insulation, will replace the inefficient back-boiler (approx 45% efficient with a compression bolier (95% efficient) when I can afford it
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances
Appliances yes, the house is 1930's so doesn't even have cavity walls.
3. Don't use pesticides
We use organic pestacides
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week
2-3 times a week
5. Buy locally grown and produced food
We grow some of our own.
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle
Don't own a car.
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit
Walk & Rail
8. Choose a home close to work or school
If only I could afford to live in central london.

1. Living in the cold Northeast we have already done everything reasonable to keep the heat in the house.

2. I'm not going out and buying new appliances to keep some greenie happy. When the ones we have break, we buy the best there is at the time.

3. We don't grow anything so we don't have any pesticides.

4. I love meat. I eat it at least once every day. Last night we ate in a Kosher Chinese restaurant. The pepper flavored chicken was delicious.

5. We do buy from the local growers. I'm not sure how this helps the planet as opposed to buying from the other side of the planet. I just like supporting my neighbors.

6. See my response to number 2. We don't own SUVs, but I love my car and I'm not getting rid of it until I have to.

7. This list was obviously written by some urban dweller. There are only about three places I could walk/ride a bike to. For people who live in suburban or rural areas this is completely foolish.

8. I don't think I'm going to move for the hell of it. I've lived in this house for 31 years.

9. I would love to support teleportation.

10. Sharing information only works if people are willing to listen.

@ TGS

For number 5, transportation, especialy aerial, is a large contributer to global warming. There was some interesting data (somewhere, can't find it now though) about the effect on (local) night & day temperatures when America had the flying bans imposed after the 11th of September. Something along the lines of a 2 degree average temp rise during the day, and a average 1 degree drop over night.

/me high-fives TGS

Trust me, Geoff, I try to live my life in as environmentally-aware a fashion as possible (recycle everything possible, minimize consumption of non-recycleables, etc.) but sometimes something has to give. Interesting, tho' how often the approach that's friendliest to the environment is also IN THE LONG RUN friendliest to the economy and the individual's health...


1. Reduce home energy use by 10%

I'm with TGS. We're already doing what we can to improve our heating/cooling efficiency, and we're looking for as many places as possible to use compact fluorescent bulbs.

2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances

When the time comes to change what currently works, that'll be a consideration.

3. Don't use pesticides

We're not farmers, but we try to deal with household pests in way that is also FAMILY friendly. Unfortunately, sometimes nothing but a squirt of Raid or Brush-be-gone will do.

4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week

Already done for other reasons. Frequently more than once.

5. Buy locally grown and produced food

Done whenever possible, which isn't as often as I'd like. Please find a way to put a few extra hours into my day to accomodate this.

6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle

Ditto #2. We've done our best with what we have, and keep our vehicles in good mecahnical condition to maximize mileage.

7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit

Already done.

8. Choose a home close to work or school

Ditto #2.

9. Support alternative transportation

Already done.

10.Learn more and share with others

The Rallykids are already being thoroughly indoctrinated - just ask Velcro! :roll:

I agree wholeheartedly with TGS and Rallymama. Whoever came up with Challenges 3 and 5 doesn't have a clue about farming. I have little patience for green, tree-loving, chemical-free elitists who complain about the sorry state of our world while typing away on their computer, eating a super-sized big mac and listening to the lastest cd from whoever is their favorite artist.

By the way, nothing is chemical free (even water is a chemical), computers are the largest growing cause of hazardous waste, farmers selling to EVERY fast food company use pesticides and cd's take ions to biodegrade.

If you're really green you don't have a computer (it pollutes and uses too much valuable electricity).

T2Bruno: Um, I'm pretty sure points 3 and 5 refer to industrial farming versus holistic growing. There are many scientific articles on many prestigious journals (such as Nature, and no, it's not a hippie thing -- it's one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world) that point to the positive effects of non-industrial methods.

edit: And being "green" does not mean "taking us back into the stone age where we only have fire and sticks." There are always moderate positions of what "green" truly is. Yes, electricity is polluting, but energy providers and corporations, especially in Europe, have been encouraging cleaner and efficient ways of generating power, such as wind or solar energy. I believe one of my profs from the UK said that Ireland (or some other place) had giant 4 MW (maybe it was even 6 MW!) wind energy farms!

Ditto TGS, Rally and T2Bruno. We do what we can, but we're not fanatical about it.

That said, a thread like this serves as a good reminder that we should always be on the lookout for reasonable ways to be environmentally friendly. For example, currently there is a bit of a push in our city to have people turn their cars off if they would otherwise just let it idle for more than a couple of minutes (temperature permitting). So now, if I get stuck waiting for a train (happens quite frequently on my route to work), I'll shut the engine off.

Here's mine!

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%

Did that. My family replaced almost all the lightbulbs with energy saving ones. We also make sure we turn off the lights because they actually consume a lot of power when turned on!

2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances

We're replacing a bunch of old appliances with ones that have current technology, and therefore more efficient.

3. Don't use pesticides

My mom never uses pesticides on her flowers!

4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week

Rice and veggies tastes very good! ;)

5. Buy locally grown and produced food

Not too good on this point. But, my province has a lot of farmers and cattle ranchers, so I'm betting a good part of that lands on my dinner plate.

6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle

Hey, I actually found some interesting data on this the other day. Supposedly, some SUVs (especially the smaller ones) do consume less fuel than some minivans! Go figure!

But yeah, my dad bought a new car (Mitsubishi Outlander) a month ago because our old van kept on breaking down, and the SUV actually consumes less.

7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit

I pretty much take transit everywhere I go, because I can't be bothered to drive. Sleeping on the bus is great!

8. Choose a home close to work or school

I would, but I live with my parents.

9. Support alternative transportation

YES. But, my city and province is dumb and won't support a U-Pass for transit. :(

10.Learn more and share with others

I'm planning to be a professor!

My father-in-law is not an industrial farmer. He has ~800 acres that he could not possibly make enough money to survive without pesticides and fertilizer. "Organic" farms get lousy yields and the average farmer could not survive the cut-throat farming business with such poor yields. Basically, the majority of consumers do not care -- they just want the weekly grocery bill low.

You can spout Nature all you want, but I've not seen an article showing holistic agriculture being able to keep up with the population in either Nature or Science (yes, I read the top two scientific journals on occasion -- along with several others). BT, please list the reference for the article you're citing -- I should be able to read it within the next few days....

Which is better for the environment, making good use what what you already have or replacing something that still works well with something new just because it's "greener"? Similarly, which has the greater impact - buying products in one location or doing a whole bunch of extra driving to reach the out-of-the-way markets where local and organic products can be found?

Two sides to every coin...

Big Tank said:
But yeah, my dad bought a new car (Mitsubishi Outlander) a month ago because our old van kept on breaking down, and the SUV actually consumes less.A hybrid would be the ideal choice. An SUV that pollutes less than a mini-van is still an SUV, and it still pollutes a heck of a lot.

T2Bruno said:
By the way, nothing is chemical free (even water is a chemical)We're talking about harmful chemicals here.

T2Bruno said:
If you're really green you don't have a computer (it pollutes and uses too much valuable electricity).But, as Rallymama says, there's two sides to every coin. Computers (and the internet) are a great way to spread ideas and urge people to be more environmentally friendly.
That being said, anybody who participates on any other forum, please post a link to the Nature Challange on that forum, and urge people to take the challange!

My comments were an obviously failed attempt at sarcasm :( -- I just get tired of the big, green push and all the hoopla surrounding it. Especially when most of those involved simply do not understand the issues (i.e., they know just enough to be dangerous). Kind of like the high school kid who thought he was making an atomic bomb with radium from watches (zero chance of it working). It's just a pet peeve of mine.

To quote my favorite movie: Sorry ... sorry ... (it needs a British accent to sound right).

T2Bruno: Okay. http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v428/n6985/full/428792a_fs.html

By the way, you probably need a subscription to get in. If you're part of a university, try accessing it from a university library or through provided proxies.

Geoff: True on SUVs. However, for myself, they've always carried the image of being a gas hog, while now, they're only moderate gas hogs. :p I know it's not going to contribute much, but at least it's something.

Speaking of cars, keeping them tuned up is a great way to reduce emissions too! So, if you're still forced to drive a vehicle, make sure it's in top shape. :)

[edit] By the way, don't get me wrong -- I'm more of a moderate on environmental issues than most people. While I believe there are issues that need to be dealt with such as global warming, it isn't a complete emergency. There was a news article a few days ago that said ocean levels will rise 1m in about 50 years. That's still plenty of time to reverse the climate changes in the world! Just look at the hole in the ozone layer in the Antarctic. :)

Let's see... leaving aside some of the gaping holes in the logic of this challenge (ie: that it assumes free agency where there is generally none), how do I stack up...

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%

I'm a student in share accommodation, and perfectly happy to freeze rather than turn on the heater as one costs money and the other doesn't. Environmental concerns are secondary for me.

2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances

See #1.

3. Don't use pesticides

I believe I would need crops or a garden first...

4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week

Generally manage to do this, usually the day before pay-day and I'm chowing down on 2-minute noodles with Chinese vegetables for that "not quite so desperate" touch. Plus, stir-fry is good with or without meat if you're any good at it (or just plain hungry).

5. Buy locally grown and produced food

The best market in Victoria is 15 minutes away on foot. Check.

6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle

I don't drive much, but my little tin coffin is pretty fuel-efficient. It's just not coolant-efficient...

7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit

I live in the heart of Melbourne - everything is within walking or tram distance.

8. Choose a home close to work or school

University is one block and one jaywalk across a major road away.

9. Support alternative transportation

See above.

10.Learn more and share with others

Oh... well, I guess I'm nixed on this one, despite being a tutor and writing a Masters thesis... wait a second...

Being heavy-handed, that's 8 out of 10. :holy: :banana: :holy:

Big Tank said:

There was a news article a few days ago that said ocean levels will rise 1m in about 50 years. That's still plenty of time to reverse the climate changes in the world! Just look at the hole in the ozone layer in the Antarctic.
No, it really isn't a lot of time. The degredation of our environment is not as simple as "eliminate harmful substances, pristine environment." For example, let's talk about the greenhouse effect. Greenhouse gases in our atmosphere are not increasing at a steady rate; they are increasing at an exponential rate. This is in part because the technology that emits those greenhouse gases is become more and more accesable. For example, huge developing nations such as China and India pose an enormous threat to our atmosphere. The other reason that the level of greenhouse gases in our atmosphere rises at an exponential rate is because there is a vicious cycle. One example of it is seen in the Canadian arctic. There is an enormous amount of carbon dioxide trapped below the permafrost in the arctic. As global temperatures rise due to human intervention, the permafrost boundary creeps north, releasing more and more carbon dioxide, raising the temperature even more.
There is a point that, if we cross, there will be no return. This point is much closer than most think. We cannot afford to wait fifty years before we start to make changes.

Geoff: Oh, I hope I didn't imply that we should make changes fifty years from now! I was merely saying that completely drastic changes are unnecessary at the time. Yes, some measure of action needs to be done, but a sense of urgency will simply cause governments to rush into decisions about the environment that may not be the best thing to do.

I believe a better approach is to recognize that there is a problem that will eventually reach us in the near future, and by recognizing that there is still time, that good solutions can be researched and achieved.

One of my chief complaints is the Kyoto Accord. Yes, it does reduce emissions, but its environmental impact will be minimal because both China and the United States, among other developing industrial nations, are exempt from it!

Perhaps a better way to achieve lower emissions is to simply reduce the cost of clean technologies -- both in terms of purchase price and efficiency. If those technologies are "sexy" enough, industries will move towards it! But then again, the challenge is to achieve this in both local and world markets.

Yes, some measure of action needs to be done, but a sense of urgency will simply cause governments to rush into decisions about the environment that may not be the best thing to do.Umm.. Still, you do not understand the severety of the situation. In his book, Boiling Point: Who's to Blame for Global Warming, Ross Gelspan even blames environmental activists for fueling the environmental crisis in USA. Why? Because he believes they tend to sugar coat the issue; they try to make people aware of global warming and try to educate people on conserving energy, but they don't tell the true facts, they don't show the true severity of the situation.
You can listen to an interview with Mr. Gelspan on Quirks and Quarks here (http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/media/2004-2005/mp3/qq-2004-10-23a.mp3)
(OR go to here (http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/04-05/oct23.html) ---> then click on the mp3 for "Who's to Blame for Global Warming")

One of my chief complaints is the Kyoto Accord. Yes, it does reduce emissions, but its environmental impact will be minimal because both China and the United States, among other developing industrial nations, are exempt from it!The Kyoto Accord is the world's only global plan to reduce greenhouse gases. It may have flaws, but it is still better than anything else out there (because there is nothing else out there!) Also, I don't think China is "exempt" from it. Nor do I think anyone is "exempt". USA just chose not to sign it.

Perhaps a better way to achieve lower emissions is to simply reduce the cost of clean technologies -- both in terms of purchase price and efficiency. Easier said than done... In order to both lower the purchase price and increse the efficiency, we need better technology. They're working on it, but they can only work so fast! (I can't wait for fuel cell cars to become public!)

If those technologies are "sexy" enough, industries will move towards it!The smart industries already have. And those smart industries have already got the money they invested towards reducing their energy consumption back from lower energy bills. Well, they also get some publicity (the big ones and the first ones did, anyways) and some people are more inclined to buy from them because of their policy.

I can't wait for fuel cell cars to become public!Fuel cells aren't necessarily better for the environment overall. Since hydrogen doesn't exist in it's elemental form naturally on Earth, it has to be manufactured, and that manufacturing takes energy. So, how that energy is generated, and any byproducts from the hydrogen manufacture can have negative environmental impacts.

Geoff: Countries that did not sign to the Kyoto Accord are under no obligation to follow the emissions guidelines. You can look this up.

Furthermore, there is little to no information on the economic impact of the Accord. Existing information, whether from papers or the mouths of politicians, vary greatly so it is hard to get any solid info.

When looking at all this risk, I have to say to myself, "We are jumping head-first into something we don't know definite or clear answers for."

I draw parallels between this and various Enterprise Resource Program (ERP, basically to integrate computer systems into companies). Basically, everyone wanted computer systems to improve their companies, but ended up hurting their companies because they failed to correctly analyze the risks. Hershey almost went under because of ERP, and K-Mart went bankrupt.

Of course, there is some risk in making any decision, but that risk should only be taken if we have a clear picture. Right now, Kyoto is not clear at all. There are still many technical loopholes and arguements concerning "clean energy" and emission credits.

But, I'm really getting off topic with this. If you want a fair and balanced view of the Accord, I suggest http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/canada.html

Blackthorne TA: You are quite right with hydrogen fuel cell cars. While the only emission from these cars is steam, you are basically adding moisture to the air. If this was duplicated on a wide market, you will basically have a similar problem compared to petro-based cars -- worldwide disruption of climate.

#3. is probably the most difficult on the list to actually accomplish. That's because even if you don't personally use pesticides, chances are you to consume products grown with the use of pesticides. Whether that produce you purchase was bought from a local farmer or half a world away, there's a pretty good chance that farmer both fertilized and used pesticides on his crops - he doesn't get paid by the insects that eat his crops - only by humans. By purchasing products grown with fertilizers and pesticides, you are promoting their use. I'm not saying I have a solution or alternative to this, but I'm just pointing it out.

Some of the others are difficult too. For example, not every family can drive a fuel efficient car. Both my wife and I have cars that are pretty fuel efficient, getting at least 30 mpg. However, that's just not possible for some people. Take our next door neighbors. There's a husband and wife, and they have 5 children, all under 8 years old. If they go out as a family, they need at least a mini-van for transportation. There's simply no way they can find a 35-40 mpg vehicle that their family can fit into.

As far as energy efficient home and appliances, I'm of the general opinion that I will replace or improve these things on an as-needed basis. If I was building a new home, I would certainly take these things into consideration, but doing something to make my home more efficient - like replacing or adding to all the existing insulation - is very expensive.

My wife and I go in opposite directions to work. I have a 40 mile drive to work, and she has a 15 mile drive to work. There's no way we could move closer to one of the work locations without moving further from the other, so for me, living close to work is really not an option.

Finally, although somewhat :yot:

Nature, and no, it's not a hippie thing -- it's one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world As a chemist, I do not think either Nature or Science is considered very prestigious by most scientists, and that should tell you a lot. In fact, I would go so far as to say that most scientists view publications of Science and Nature to be more popular science than real science. Basically, we feel that they are science for people without scientifc backgrounds. Sure, they serve a purpose of giving information to the public at large, but they aren't prestigious scientific journals.

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%

My house is already well insulated and I just installed a new high efficiency furnace this summer. I have done as much as I plan to.

2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances

See 1.

3. Don't use pesticides

Let me get back to you on this one after I poison the hell out of my lawn's population of leatherjackets.

4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week

This one is just not going to happen.

5. Buy locally grown and produced food

When possible sure I will do so but the options for doing so are a little limited up here in the Great White North. There tends not to be all that much in the way of local fruit and vegatables when there is a couple feet of snow on the ground.

6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle

The vehicle I am driving right now is about as fuel-efficient as you can get.

7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit

Walk/bike - When feasible - yes. Going the 50 KM (each way) to work - I think not.

Carpool - Until a couple of weeks ago I did, but then the guy I was car pooling with changed jobs. I don't know anyone else who works in the city and puts in hours that are consistent with mine.

Transit - Sure if I want to double my already long commute time and hugely increase my expenses over driving. The transit system here is really a joke, and if you have to go from the suburbs into the area of the city where I work it is just terrible.

8. Choose a home close to work or school

Sorry but work is available in the city and
(a) I wouldn't want to live there - a quality of life issue, the idea of living in a cramped and grassless slum doesn't really appeal to me
(b) my house would cost three times as much if it was in the city
(c) I like the house I have right now
and (d) I have lived in this suburb for over 20 years so my family and friends are all here

9. Support alternative transportation

If there is something economically sensible I would be more than happy to support it.

10.Learn more and share with others.

:bs:

Big Tank said:
Countries that did not sign to the Kyoto Accord are under no obligation to follow the emissions guidelines. You can look this up.I never said they were under any obligation. I just said that they weren't "exempt" from it, as you said. I felt that exempt was the wrong word, because it implies that there is something different about USA and China.

Big Tank said:
We are jumping head-first into something we don't know definite or clear answers for.Forget the economic figures, the figures that matter more than anything are the horrifying figures that keep rising in severity as time passes. We need to do something! I believe saving the homo sapiens and many other species from oblivion is worth the risk to our global economy.

Geoff: I would think exempt would be the right word, if a person didn't sign to something for example. Kind of like the reverse for signing into an exemption?

"Exempt" would imply that the U.S. is not bound by the agreement due to specific clauses in that agreement which give it special privilege; that is not the case here. The U.S. simply decided not to sign the agreement; I think "not party to" would be better terminology.

Fuel cells aren't necessarily better for the environment overall. Since hydrogen doesn't exist in it's elemental form naturally on Earth, it has to be manufactured, and that manufacturing takes energy. So, how that energy is generated, and any byproducts from the hydrogen manufacture can have negative environmental impacts. It gets worse, it takes more energy to manufacture fuel-cells than they can produce.

The next clean source of fuel will probably the nuclear battery (http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuc.html), ofcourse the mere mention of the word nuclear will cause many treehuggers to shake in their boots, forgetting that Uranium is a natural resource, and "Mother Nature" had a very own nuclear reactor nowadays called Oklo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklo)

Even windpower(which seems to be the only solution they can come up with) may cause global climate changes, link (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/11/0056217&tid=134&tid=126)

[ November 19, 2004, 10:34: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

Here's what I'm doing:

1. Reduce home energy use by 10%
Hmm, just moved to a bigger house so I've probably increased energy use
2. Choose an energy-efficient home & appliances
Don't know how
3. Don't use pesticides
Yes! No pesticides on my garden - I can't afford to buy any
4. Eat meat-free meals one day a week
Maybe, once a fortnight
5. Buy locally grown and produced food
I do try and do this, but it would mean no coffee or bananas
6. Choose a fuel-efficient vehicle
Well, I don't have a big engined car so I suppose I am doing this
7. Walk, bike, carpool or take transit
I catch the bus to work. Does that count?
8. Choose a home close to work or school
That would be far too expensive
9. Support alternative transportation
Alternative to what?
10.Learn more and share with others
I'm doing that right now

@Splunge: Yeah, I think that's much better. Being an Engineer kind of hacks up my ability to use the english language. :(

You think being an engineer gives you linguistic problems - you should try being Canadian! (Eh.)

:D

I am a Canadian. :eek:

[Yikes! :shake: ] -Tal

[ November 20, 2004, 02:04: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

That Slashdot Page (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/11/0056217&tid=134&tid=126) said:
The Globe and Mail is currently running an article on a recent wind power study. A group of Canadian and American scientists has modelled the effects of introducing massive amounts of wind farms into North America and have come up with surprising results. While still having only 1/5th the impact of fossil fuels, wind power will still adjust the earth's climate with the equatorial regions warmed while the arctic grows colder. Could this be a boon for the nuclear lobby, or is this just further evidence for a diversified power-generating system?Well, at least that's a start at cooling the arctic and making sure our polar icecaps remain frozen!
Besides, perhaps that study just chose to place the wind farms in the wrong spots. Perhaps if they were placed differently, or perhaps if they were on a different continent, there would be no worries.

Morgoth said:
Even windpower(which seems to be the only solution they can come up with) may cause global climate changes,Solar power?

Only useful if you live in a place where the sun always shines, like a desert, or the Sahel.

I think it's safe to say that any alternative energy souce will have certain side effects.

As far as wind power goes, yes, there may be an environmental impact as a result of changed wind patterns, but what about similar effects resulting from, say, large cities with tall buildings, or deforestation? (Note - I'm no expert here.) My point is that there are other factors at work as well, and as Geoff suggests, maybe a colder Arctic could be a good thing. (I can't believe I'm saying that, given where I live. :shake: )

@ Big Tank - you're an engineer and a Canadian?!?
...You're doomed.
:p

@ Big Tank - you're an engineer and a Canadian?!?
...You're doomed.
Crap. That's what I plan to be! :p

Morgoth said:
Only useful if you live in a place where the sun always shines, like a desert, or the Sahel.?!? Not true! Solar power is still useful even in Canada. It's just not as effective. It is still useful.
Similarly, there are areas of the world where there are consistantly strong winds, and others where there are consistantly no/weak winds. So, you could argue that wind farms are only "useful", as you say, in certain areas, just as you argue that solar power is only "useful" in certain areas.

Splunge said:

As far as wind power goes, yes, there may be an environmental impact as a result of changed wind patterns, but what about similar effects resulting from, say, large cities with tall buildings, or deforestation?Right on!

Oh, clean energy is definitely viable in places like Canada. Diversity is great for producing energy, too. Enmax (a power company here in Alberta) is setting up a lot of wind farms to produce energy!

Solar energy would be good, but as it stands, modern solar panels aren't too efficient at producing energy. :(

Personally, I think nuclear energy would be the way to go, but only if they increased the efficiency of the process and found a way to decrease the pollution such as radiation, waste, and superheated water. Perhaps if they found a good way to convert thermal energy into electrical energy?