This is regarding a childrens show in the UK that is fronted by former Miss N.Ireland.

She wanted to use the 'Red Hand of Ulster' as it 'would make a good choice in a competition for a new airline tailfin design'.

However stupid and ignorant - David Miller, professor of sociology at Strathclyde University, complained to the BBC and said the Red Hand had been misappropriated like the swastika.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=603574

Ireland is split into 4 provences - each with its own symbol so why is Ulster being singled out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland

This would be like trying to censor the Stars and Stripes of the Union Jack as racist or offensive.

Edit - Typos fixed :)

[ January 24, 2005, 13:49: Message edited by: Cesard ]

This is one of the things I love about this board. I just followed the links and learned some new things. It is even possible that some of my paternal ancestors came from Ulster.

Cesard, I need a little more education. Why is the Red Hand controversial? I can understand a map of Ireland covered by the Union Flag. Which only proves that insensitivity (to be polite) exists everywhere.

:Edit: I did find a very brief reference to the Red Hand Comando.

[ January 24, 2005, 12:03: Message edited by: Nakia Nightshadow ]

Yes I can agree with the map of Ireland covered bythe Union Flag but the Red Hand is just a symbol of the 6 combined counties of Ulster. But Miss N.I. was not known for her brains!

I am not sure why the Red Hand is so contraversial - lots of local lore have been changed so much its hard to know fact from fiction but the popular story is:

Some people decide to have a boat race to keep the provence of Ulster - the first one to touch land wins. One of the competitors cuts off his hand and throws it, luckily it touches land and he wins. Yes its very brief but I do not think I am leaving out anything important.

The Red Hand Commando's are a very brutal terrorist group that have been thankfully keeping a low profile.

I guess its things like that that make it so contraversial like the Nazi's and the Hindu Swastika.

Your ancestors may have come from Ulster as many famous Americans are from here. I beleive that Andrew Jackson's family were from Antrim.

said the Red Hand had been misappropriated like the swastika. So folks, if you want to stop a flag from being used, set up your own terrorist organisation with that particular flag as your emblem. As far as I am concerned the Red Hand is not fully synonymous with Terrorism in the same way that the Union Jack/Flag of St. George is not fully synonymous with the national front and football hooliganism. Alas, in western countries at least, the Swastika is synonymous with the Nazi's.

An aside, being as "Swastika" sounds like a German word, anyone know what it's Hindu counterpart was called?

This would be like trying to censor the Stars and Stripes of the Union Jack as racist or offensive. What stars do we have on the Union Jack? :D

Swastika is the sanskrit word. The of the swastika which the Nazis use is mirror imaged / opposite to the real swastika.
Thus while our swastika has a clockwise orientation the Nazi swastika appears anticlockwise. Also the swastika is used to symbolise new and auspicious beginings. Prehaps reffering to the new order that the Nazis wanted to introduce, though if it would be called auspicious today is anyone's guess now.

"Hindus want to 'reclaim' swastika"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4188141.stm

Includes a nice picture.

Another headline (which I cannot find) calls for a European ban on the Swastika but I am not sure if this is just limited to the 'Nazi emblem'.

The Swastika was also used by the Scouts.

The Swastika was also used in Native American art. I ran a search on it but so far have found only a passing reference to it. I think it was used in the s/w USA.

Well, of course do I think it is offensive and that beauty queen should have thought twice about that. (Beauty queen... think... oxymoron ?)

I thin the offensive part stems from what the "blood hand" means. I only remember fragments of the story, but isn't the story something like this: As one English fleet arrived at the Irish coast, at the coast of Ulster, and the coast came into view, the English king said to his men, that the first one who's hand touches the land, shall be forever owner of the patch of land, that could be seen from the ship. So one on board took an axe, chopped off his hand and threw it at land and he went to become the owner of the land. Of course, only after the aboriginies were killed or displaced.

The whole "blood-hand" is a symbol of British dominance, it seems to me. Ulster was legally correctly conquered and its ownership forever clear.

Would be very offensive to me if I was Irish and not Anglo-Irish.

And "swastika" isn't the word used in German. It is "Hakenkreuz", the cross with the #. Swastika is not known to German speakers, except they speak English for example. And also, Aryan, the way the Italians and Germans referred tothemselves, is Sanskrit.

Well If you come to N.Ireland and see how everyone is 'dominated' you will see how much people are whining. If the Irish want to be bitter about past persecutions they should be angry at the French and Italians (and the Greeks for killing the Fir Bolgs). After all John de Courcy conquered Ireland with the Popes blessing.

This is the land of hyprocricy where you see 'Brits out' signs next to bars called 'Liverpool supporters club'.

The worst thing to happen here would be total peace as people would have nothing to do once they are out of prison - thats why Belfast has become known as the racist capital of Europe!

A map of Ireland covered in the bloody union jack? :toofar: :spit:

Well If you come to N.Ireland and see how everyone is 'dominated' you will see how much people are whining. If the Irish want to be bitter about past persecutions they should be angry at the French and Italians (and the Greeks for killing the Fir Bolgs). After all John de Courcy conquered Ireland with the Popes blessing.
Been there, done that. Had actually quite a good time in Belfaste, met some nice people. I remember the "Crown Pub" but everything else is washed a away by some pints too much I guess.

The point, as I gather it, the whole issue turns around symbols. And the "blood hand" is a sign dating from a troubled past, that still looms over the present, until the whole issue will be resolved for good. In the meantime, I think it's quite reasonable to not needlessly fuel any fire by displaying a potentally politically loaded symbol needlessly.

And funny by the way, the Swiss Flag is also prone to steer up trouble in a similar way. In Arabic countries, they know their history well. With all the Swastika talk. Every noticed that the Swastika is inside a white circle on red. That's a strong "christian" connotation. Has to do something with purification through spilling the blood of infidels. Well anyway, in Arab countries they don't like the flag and me, I don't have a problem with keeping it low-profile, if it's so important to them.

People need to understand that if they live in a free society, they will be offended. Accept it, get over it, move on.

You would think 40 years would be enough thime to 'get over it'.

People need to understand that if they live in a free society, they will be offended. Accept it, get over it, move on. That statement would be valid in different circumstances. But it's completly besides the point, as a public TV-station devoted to impartiality is concernend. So, commonplace without relation to the problem at hand.

On other hand, I think a meaningless neologism like P.C. has a brighter future then the blood hand. In twenty years, the flag will be gone.

Its not just a flag but an emblem for the kingdom of Ulster, do you really think it will dissappear? If you come to N.Ireland (or Scotland) on 12th July you will see many flags and emblems that have 'dissappeared'.

Its not just a flag but an emblem for the kingdom of Ulster, do you really think it will dissappear? If you come to N.Ireland (or Scotland) on 12th July you will see many flags and emblems that have 'dissappeared'. I actually would even bet that in twenty years, theres going to be a bill from the competent legislative in Ulster, creating a new flag for Ulster. It's my sixth sense that tells me so. But it maybe end in one of the corners of the new flat. I think we should wait and see. 20 years and we will post about it again.

That statement would be valid in different circumstances. But it's completly besides the point, as a public TV-station devoted to impartiality is concernend.You think so, eh?

People got offended by the use of the icon. Then other people got offended by the retraction. I think, given the circumstances, it's a perfectly valid statement. :p

The Swastika was also used in Native American art. I ran a search on it but so far have found only a passing reference to it. I think it was used in the s/w USA.Well, that must be one copycating native American, since it is the symbol of the sun in Hinduism/Buddhism.

More research needs to be done by individuals before they condemn anything or even have an opinion on something - not just accept the first first thing you read/hear.

The world would be a much better place.

People got offended by the use of the icon. Then other people got offended by the retraction. I think, given the circumstances, it's a perfectly valid statement. Of course it's valid. All truisms are true and valid... that's why they are truisms. Just to know that the world turns and all people sooner or later die, are, while true, restrictied in their actual helpfulness. Of course, if you ban a political symbol from a handicrafts show, the political correct will be upset. Restrict political correction in handicrafts shows on handicrafts can never fail to upset the politically correct.

More research needs to be done by individuals before they condemn anything or even have an opinion on something - not just accept the first first thing you read/hear.
Who, why, what ? Me ? Yourself ? The Unionist parties ? The Schottish academic ? The beauty queen ? The children watching ? The BBC ?

She added: "We take all complaints seriously and after we received yours we did some detailed investigation into it, the result of which is that we realise that the context in which we were referring to the Red Hand was inappropriate and mistaken. We'd like to apologise for any upset or concern we have caused."

Something similar to the swastika is indeed a traditional native american symbol. It was used on the corn palace in Mitchell South Dakota pre WWII.
http://www.jwmosby.net/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=SouthDakota&id=DSC02276

A variant of the swastika was also used in Roman architecture. The Temple of Bacchus (god of wine, among other things) in Baalbak (Lebanon) has a repeat of the symbol, carved into the stones that were set at the base of the building.

Who, why, what ? Me ? Yourself ? The Unionist parties ? The Schottish academic ? The beauty queen ? The children watching ? The BBC ? Well no-one was offended here - including the Nationalists so why should apologies be issued because a Scottish professor had taken offense to something that does not concern him?