School and grades... Grades say nothing, especially with younger students. Ever noticed how some children get great marks for homework and all sorts of assignment but worse for anything done in the class? Sometimes it's an issue of comfort or time, but often grades just say which child's parents help him with the homework, check it before handing it in to the teacher or even do it for him. Parents or tutors.

I've just had one such 14 year old pupil ask me on a communicator to "check" a short writing for English. And what was it? Incomprehensible but instantly recognisable babble from a translation program. I told her to write it herself. And what did I get? A most sincerely surprised, "why?"

Something is wrong with schools. It looks like they no longer teach but they just give exams and there's not much learning. How is a child supposed to learn a language if he uses translation software because it's easier? He probably sees no point in learning anything because everything is in google. Someone needs to tell kids why they are doing what they are doing and why cheating is bad. Not just give a penal failing grade on the rare occasion that someone's caught red-handed. And the person who needs to tell pupils such things is surely not some random guy on the internet found through a tutoring ad service. Something is wrong with schools nowadays.

When I went to school, I didn't exactly love studying for all subjects. Well, not after a certain point. And the time did come when I started hating homework and all things related. Teachers asked things they hadn't first told. Homework was bizarre and long like the Nile. When we added up the time we would have had to spend if we were to do all homework on each one's own, it sometimes exceeded the amount of time we physically had between getting back home from school and setting off on the following day. Complaining and reasoning gave nothing, so we took matters in our own hands. We had quite a nice exchange. Later on, most homework was just boring nuisance. I remember doing homework for other people that I wouldn't have done for myself because I didn't give a damn. But we at least wanted to figure it out. To know what was what. Besides, I suppose part of the reason why they gave so much homework was that they knew it was group effort and no one cared much, so the more they gave the greater the chance was that we would actually do something. To spend more time looking for opportunities to cheat your way out than doing it yourself would take would be an obvious idiocy and would bring nothing but disenchantment on the part of fellow students. Some things were just not done. Or at least not off the bat, not right away in Semptember.

As for that pupil, she's just go blocked on the communicator. Nothing seemed to reach her and all she would let out was "send me back the correct version," not to mention she wasn't even marginally polite about it. They way those kids talk I don't talk to subordinates let alone someone who's a freaking teacher. Something's wrong with schools on more than just one level nowadays. I took a couple of private lessons in my time and if I had tried talking like that to any of the tutors, they would have shown me the door. Besides, I've done a good couple of hours as a tutor and teacher myself and have no desire to make the job harder for other people who do it by helping their students cheat their way through at no cost and cripple themselves.

Oh dear. Wonder where all this is going.

[ September 03, 2005, 16:47: Message edited by: chevalier ]

I agree, schools now a-days are horrible. Even if a student was to actually pay attention and work he/she wouldn't learn much.

I spent almost every day in middle school just sitting there and making up things with staples and erasers and disarming pens. Why? because everything they taught (when they did) was too simple and easy. The homework was simply a sheet with 5-10 questions, the hardest would be science when they would tell you to copy 10 questions off the book and answer them. It seemed to me the type of thing they gave for homework in elementary, and they did from what I remembered.

The teachers seemed to be more lazy and uninterested in school then the students, one teacher would give homework once a week, at the most. He would come to class almost always late. And I can't remember him spending at least a whole week without giving out a "free day." Other teachers either: 1. Didn't know how to control the class. 2. Despised the students. 3. Gave too much work which most kids weren't used to/didn't understand. Hell 4 out of the 9-11 school security personnel were actually high almost every day. And the disrespect towards the teachers was incredible, one science teacher had to spend a week from school because he had been pebbled with balls made out of paper by most students in his class, I saw it myself.

At this rate the future of society is one big :hmm:

While I agree there is something wrong with kids and their parents, I'm don't know that it was different in the past.

As another recent example to illustrate this, I read in my local newspaper not too long ago (maybe a few months) that there was this big controversy about the school suspending kids for cheating on their homework. Curious as to why there was a controversy, I actually read more than the headline.

It turned out that a very large portion of the class was cheating, including the ones at the top of the class and on top of it many of them including some of the parents didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

"Huhn?" You say, "Nothing wrong with cheating? I don't get it."

Well, what had happened was there was a flaw in the automatic program that was used to do the assignments. It was something like geometry IIRC; something mathematic anyway. So the program would present a problem, the student would answer it, and the program would tell them if it was right or wrong. The flaw in the program was that it was web-based, and if the student hit the "back" button on the browser, the problem would reappear with the correct answer already displayed.

Needless to say this flaw got around pretty quickly and just about everybody was using it to bypass their assignments. Until they were caught (and I don't remember how exactly).

Of course there was an uproar. Parents saying it's no big deal, and even that it's not the kids' faults, it's the school's (ah, the victim mentality rears its ugly head). Kids saying it's no big deal as well, and the bright ones at the top of the class saying they knew the answers anyway, they just didn't want to waste their time getting the answers; it was easier to cheat.

Well, I was certainly shocked at this mentality, and I'm sure chevalier is as well. Though I don't know that suspension was the right answer, clearly something was wrong there, and not just the cheating...

I'm sure if there was an easy way to get out of an assignment like that, a lot of kids would take it. But I would have thought that they at least would acknowledge that it wasn't the right thing to do...

Do you want an answer, chev?

The best 'reasonings' I can supply are someone in the mid-20th century decided children didn't need to be 'disciplined' anymore. (I'm not talking about spanking or corporal punishment or that stuff. I don't want to get into a big harangue about slapping/spanking is wrong, etc.)

The other half is someone (probably the same person) also decided parents don't need to *be* parents anymore. Be your child's friend. :hippy:

Kids don't understand the difference between 'right' and 'wrong' anymore. In your example of a student using a translation program for a paper, she asks why. I believe the unspoken part of her question is: Why should I do it myself when there's a program out there that can do it for me? If it's wrong to use a program for translation, then why is this program out there?

Convenience. Why put work into something when you can do it an easier way? I can write my stories longhand if necessary instead of typing them on a computer.

It's not just with kids, either. I've run into adults who have no clue how to wash a dish when the silly machine breaks down. I've been told countless times to just 'stick it in the dishwasher'. It takes me the same amount of time washing/drying my dishes as it is to rack them in the machine.

Look at the higher math classes - stats, calculus, etc. A calculator was de rigeur for those classes in my high school and college. Oh, you can do all that figuring by hand, but here's a handy-dandy appliance that can do it for you! :rolleyes:

PS Thanks for moving this while I was typing my reply! :p

[Heh. Sorry. ;) -BTA]

[ September 03, 2005, 18:39: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

A most sincerely surprised, "why?"Could ask that myself too, considering that my university forces stuff down my throat, much like secondary junior high had, with that same reason: "Because we think that it is the best for you." (Notice the word "we.") The result is that you go through several unnecessary hoops, study longer, and cost more money to the education system. Then people wonder why we don't graduate faster and why one MA-paper costs so much money. :rolleyes:

This Google "cheating" is, IMO, just modern day. Why learn something you do not need to know and can access it via the net? Why force stuff down your throat when the only things you need to learn are those things you *do* -not only hearing about. Granted, in elementary school this is probably the only way to teach, but in secondary schools and universities this is more of an hinderance than anything else. After all, if there is some info you need only occasionally, you can as well take out your cellphone, head to Google, and take it from there.

Yet, the people in governing positions, perhaps elsewhere too, seem to think that they know what is the best for us later-stage students... Personally, I really wish there were a big Pro-Choise movement going on so some changes would be done. :nolike:

But where is the line drawn? On one hand, Google can be a usefull tool to aid in a research paper. Thus, by going through the effort to Google something, you're doing the work, and by studying and evaluating the results, you're learning to separate the facts from the bull that's out there. As long as you're not simply doing a copy/paste thing you are not cheating. And if you either go by or copy the wrong pages, it will net you a failing grade...

Likewise, the translator program can be used to help find the English translation of the word you're thinking of, but they are not reliable for a proper report because these programs look only at teh words, not the grammar...

Computers, like calculators for the higher end math classes, will help you do a lot of things, but they won't do it for you. That's what needs to be taught...

Hey, Gnarfflinger, we agree again. I was trying to think how to post what you just posted. Research is important and it doesn't matter if it is done in a library or on the Internet. However remember that just because something is in print doesn't make it true. Using a translator program to write something for your language class is dumb. I had to use one to translate some Germany texts into English and it was hilarious.

Kids nowadays are also becoming useless at maths because they use calculators and Excel for everything and can no longer do simple arithmetic in their heads.

Hey, that's what they are for. Better not be stuck-back and put the CPUs into use. That way you have energy for something else. ;)

Grades only tell me how good the student was at handing in works and completing test, knowledge can be a different thing entirely.

Chev,

It happens everywhere. As I have mentioned in the past, my wife is an elemenatary school teacher. Every year there are students who hand in perfect homework assignments every day, yet perform miserably on all of their tests. Since in elementary school, the tests are usually taken directly from some of the homework problems with only some minor changes, there is no reasonable explanation of why the students are able to perform perfectly on their homework and yet not perform correctly on the test. It's not a matter of time, as in elementary school you get as long as you need to finish the test.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the parents are doing the work for their children, or at best, are telling the child which ones are wrong and how they should be answered correctly. My wife finds such actions extremely harmful to the child. While it is possible for parents to assist their child to acheive good grades in elementary school, their parents usually do not have the time or even the knowledge to help them out the same way by the time they start persuing higher education. Mom doesn't have any problem showing you how to correctly perform long division, but she can't help you out in solving a differential equation. Without the strong foundation in elementary schools, these students generally are some of the poorest performers in later grades.

AFI, I think some parents don't even realize that the homework "help" they're providing is giving the solutions away. We once stayed with some friends for a few weeks, and their older son would come home with schoolwork. When he'd ask for help I'd try to guide him to the answer himself, only to have his mother shout it out first and say "That's a good one, write it down!" :rolleyes: I don't think she even knew what she was doing, but Jake didn't come up with any of those answers on his own. :(

Here's the other extreme: My father would never help me in any way with my homework for fear that he would end up "doing it for me". I thought he was being ridiculous at the time, but after seeing the tight leash he keeps on his assistant at work, I'd say he was right on the money. In my case it worked well, but some might need a little help if they're really stuck.

@Felinoid

There's a big difference in providing a little help and giving them the answer. It's one thing to show them how to do the problems and giving them all the answers.

Here's an example from elementary school. One of the things my wife teaches every year is multiplication of numbers containing multiple digits. Like a 3-digit number multiplied by another 3-digit number. The homework assignment may consist of 10 of such problems. Now, if your kid is having trouble, I think it is reasonable to sit down with them and show them how to properly perform the first two problems or so, and then allow them to solve the rest on their own. What doesn't make sense is to sit down with them and solve all of the problems for them, as they still don't know how to do them correctly.

Moreover, my wife states that the main problem with these types of students is that it is difficult to identify them immediately to give them assistance BEFORE the test. One of the points of homework is not just practice, but so that my wife can identify which students are having difficulties with what types of problems so that a teaching assistant can give them individualized help in learning the material. If the student's homework looks good, there doesn't appear to be any reason why the student would need more help, so they don't get it, and they fail.

@Aldeth:
I know; like I said it's an extreme. I think my father was doing what was right for him because I doubt he personally could have managed the proper balance; I thought I was clear on that but I guess not. I only meant to point out that while his method worked for me, it would most likely not work for everyone, and should only be considered if you think you can't attain a good balance of helping without taking over. Given the choice between having to do it all on my own or having him become impatient and push me through every step of every problem, I'd say he made the right decision for us.

I will forever appreciate the fact that my parents only worked me through some of the problems and left me to do the rest - when I needed it.

I know at the time it frustrated me to no end because I didn't understand what I was doing and I just wanted all the answers. 15 years later at the age of 20 and I look back with a feeling of gladness that my parents never pandered to me.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to understand how much this actually hurts the child and parent in the long run.

Something is wrong with schools. It looks like they no longer teach but they just give exams and there's not much learning.Amen to that.

I was lucky; my parents took an active interest in my teaching. Despite the fact that my dad would help me with some complex problems (I sucked at trigonometry), he wouldn't give me the answer himself, and he'd make sure I understood why that answer was right. In short, I had to know how to do it myself, even if I needed a push in the right direction, and I needed to understand the steps involved and how they were applied.

The problem, as many people have already said, appears to be that the need to think or understand exactly how/why something works as it does has been devalued. While having automated functions to come up with answers is great, it should not replace the need to know why that is the correct answer, or the correct process.

Anyone can plug "8 x 7" into a calculator and get 56, but like so many other things, knowing how you got there is essential to understanding, and if you don't understand or can't explain how you got an answer, you really don't "know" that it's right.

That's something I'll have to remember if/when I have kids of my own; if I really want to help them, I can't solve the problems for them.

:hahaerr: I was just reminded of a bit from a Simpsons episode:
Teacher: "Whose calculator can tell me what 8 times 7 is?"
*furious button pushing heard*
Student (raising hand): "Ooh, ooh!"
Teacher: "Yes, Milhouse?"
Student: "Low battery?"
Teacher: "Close enough." :lol: :lol: :lol:

As long as you're not simply doing a copy/paste thing you are not cheating.Not true. It's still plagiarism even if you just use their information. That's what the whole "citing sources" is all about. Technically, you also have to get permission from the original author, but I very highly doubt that any school other than universities tell you that. That's a real shame because doing something like that could cost a professional his/her career.

I think it shouldn't be a problem if parents do spell-checking and double check grammar and syntax, so long as the child makes effort to write properly. But things should be explained, preferably by referring the child to relevant dictionary entries or grammar book passages, not by sending back the corrected version. As for calculations, a well-trained elementary school student should be able to multiply three digit numbers by three digit numbers without the use of pen and paper, let alone a calculator.

@Rastor: I think Gnarff wanted to say something along the lines of, "a website is as good as a book for information." I believe looking at other people's works for ideas should be more of looking than simply helping oneself to problem syntheses, essay layouts and such things. What I don't like is when children use those little concise books so that they wouldn't have to read the whole big coursebook. If they read three already written works and write one of their own after finishing, it's not so bad. It can be crippling yourself, as compared to relying only on yourself for the completion of the task, but we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Examples are highly educative. Often more so than bare theory bits, I believe. It's still better to avoid aping, of course. But this is also true for pages and pages of almost identical problems to solve, where you just get tired of writing the whole thing, not even calculating it or declining or conjugating or whatever you are doing. This being said, I've been known to smile when giving Latin homework and say, "It's just 240 forms." ;)

My son is in second grade and has daily homework. He does it. We review it (the teacher actually asked the parents to go over it) and, where it's wrong, we tell our son that there's something wrong (we'll give hints as to what's wrong), but it's up to him to get it right. That goes for spelling as well, as he needs to know how to spell things even though he'll have a spell-checker soon enough.

We certainly don't do his homework (my wife and I both passed second grade and see no reason to do it again), but we do take an interest.

Generally, I can say with a small amount of pride that I almost never had someone answer a question for me. It's just that math wasn't as hard at the time when I was in 7-8th grade, and I went to a high school in another town (so I saw my parents only on weekends). The first 2 years my roommate could help me (he was junior, then senior), but I seldom asked and he wasn't much interested, either. The following roomie was in university so he couldn't be bothered, and the next one was 2 years my junior, so he simply couldn't. Overall, I managed to do ok in math - and was p... off at myself for not getting more than 780 on the SAT I Math. On the other hand, thanks to a lot of time spent inside and bad eating habits, my shape was pleasantly rounded and I was no good at most sports :) Then I went to university and took no math for 2 years. C'est la vie ;)
The one subject I cheated en masse was computer programming for 12th grade. Someone had decided that humanity-profiled students don't need to know how to do a simple html web page, but need to know Cisco networking. Oookaaay, as if someone is going to hire a social scientist or a historian to fix networks. Anyway, the tests included much more than our teacher told us, and as none could get over 80% (it was a competitive school and most of us didn't like a grade as that), we weren't exactly shocked when some of us found the answers on the net. You see, Cisco has the same tests for its levels worldwide, and they don't change over the years. Hardly suprisingly, there was very little variation in our grades afterwards. Except for a few 95%s every now and then - you can't memorize everything, but it's even better than the teacher seeing everyone (total airheads included) get a straight 100%s on each test. Well, I think he knew anyway, but that's another story.

Bottom line: while knowing what to do on the net and how to use a calculator is important, I think some basic skills are necessary. When I become a parent, I could give my children hints, but I don't intend to do their homework for them. Of course, it also depends on their future mother ;)

@The Shaman: Yeah, I don't intend to do homework for my future children, either. And it also depends on their future mother, so as I'm no fan of fighting over control with my future wife, I guess this adds a factor for me to consider in making the right decision. ;)

But back to the topic... IT in my highschool wasn't a big thing. Two years of "elements of IT" and mostly useless stuff. Or not. Don't know. Later on, each lesson had an assignment. Do the basic one or get a failing note. Do the more complicated version and get an A. I didn't care to do the basic, so I always had someone bring it to me on a diskette when I was surfing the net. Then, I took the basic one, did the improved version on it and handed the diskette back to people who distributed it. ... And I returned to my surfing.