There are a lot of unexplained things in our world. Some things have scientific explanations and some don't. I concider myself a healthy skeptic with a liberal streak of believer. Too many strange things have happened to me for me to be otherwise.

My poll question is: Do you believe in real magic?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 34 user(s) have voted.
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Poll Results: on real magic (34 votes.)

Do you believe in real magic. (Choose 1)
* Yes I believe in real magic - 18% (6)
* No I don't believe in anything that can't be scientifically proven. - 44% (15)
* I think magic is possible but I don't really believe it. - 21% (7)
* I have a limited belief in magic. - 18% (6)

What do you define as "magic" then? Something that does not have a scientific explanation now? Or something that can never have a scientific explanation?

Hmm, and based on my above questions, I wonder how long before this becomes yet another religious debate and is moved to the AoDA?

It was not my intention to start a religious debate with this question.

I guess I would define it as something that can never have a scientific explanation as we know science today.

Magic - you can define it as you like. I realize that might be a little vague but I think it is still answerable.

* EDIT * For a more complete definition explaining what I'm refering too see my other post further down this page.

[ September 20, 2005, 04:58: Message edited by: Dragonfly ]

I think there are plenty of things we don't understand but I don't think they should be called "magic" in the sense a sorcerer casting Melf's Acid Arrow.

I believe in spirits, but I am not sure what you mean by magic. Can you give me an example, as most people have different views on what magic is - e.g. science in pre-medieval times could be called 'magic'.

Or Wiccans call coincidence, magic, e.g. buring a blue candle during the summer solstice will bring wealth.

Wasn't there a thread in the AoDA along these lines not so long ago?

And I'm still debating this issue with myself - but am mostly leaning towards the view that magic does not exist. On the other hand, I'll keep my mind open, as I do know intelligent people who claim to have seen/used it or whatever - but until someone throws a magic missile at me I'm going to keep doubting strongly.

(and yes, since this topic came up last my opinions have changed quite a bit - they do that)

I'm skeptical by default but I believe there have been prophets and saints healing or raising people, foreseeing the future etc as a gift from God. On the evil side, it's possible to consort with daemons etc. But just how many people on either side who claim it, really have it? No magic of the say a spell, wave your hand and frow fireballs around kind. ESP is or will be explicable by scientific means. It's not like we know everything about the human brain and mind already.

weird, i 'm torn in two. i believe in an afterlife and a god (not really by choice though. i guess that's because i've been raised in a catholic family and catholic schools all my life and you tend to accept it as a given) even though i'm not religious. but i don't believe in ghosts, pixies and the like. so i guess my answer is: no, don't believe it.

If magic includes: ghosts and spirits, ways to speak to 'other beings' (ouija boards and tarot cards) and mental abilities (telepathy, second sight, etc.), then yes, I believe.

I read tarot cards - my future doesn't look bright. I talk to spirits (my brother and the one in this house). I have a limited second sight - dreaming of things to come with triggers set so I know seconds before whatever it is happens. I know there's another 'side' after you die (having died and no, I didn't like it).

I have never, ever, not even once, seen anything remotely magical, mystical or psychic. I don't believe in ghosts, goblins, leprecaun, or gremlins. Elves are right out. I've never seen any evidence of a supernatural figure -- good or evil. I believe people do what they want to and blame non-existant entities when things do go as planned.

In the Irish tales of the Leprechaun, he is unanimously perceived as sly and malicious and definitely not to be trusted by a mortal.

The 'Hollywood' notion of the good-tempered innocuous 'wee-man' as portrayed in films such as 'Darby O' Gill and the Little People', is NOT how the Leprechaun is perceived traditionally.

Visit Ireland, Scotland or any other Celtic country, and you will see how 'magical' various lands are :D

I believe the human brain is capable of many things...

but predominantly of self-deception.

Practicing esper. :alien: It took about a decade of deep meditations (starting at 8), but I can move things with my mind every once in a while.

EDIT: :shame: Hey, I'm serious. It takes a heck of a lot of concentration, but it's doable. I'm still working on telepathy, but I doubt I'll be able to pull it off in my lifetime. :(

[ September 19, 2005, 18:57: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

Yep, same as I. Normally, I don't stop with small things and go for moving worlds and mountains instead. The solar system is a fine example of my superior esp-ship, right. I do like employing my x-ray-vision better, though ;) .

Needless to say: I just believe in the magic of my looks and wits. Nothing more.

I believe the human brain is capable of many things...

but predominantly of self-deception. Agreed upon.

I'm a literal christian, so, in a sense, yes, I do believe in magic, but it is the deception/power of Satan and demons and is a VERY bad thing mostly seen in third-world nations. Somehow, I doubt this is what you were asking about.

I want to believe.

i do not believe in magic, i believe that most people who place faith in magic often have more of a lack of understanding. im not oging to proclaim that everything can be explained through science and if it cant then the claim must be bogus, but i will believe that there will always be a limit to human understanding.

if we took many of todays gadgets back to the past and showed them 'young' man, then he will believe that what he has seen is magic, likewise we are probably in the same situation now, we dont understand it.... so it must be magic

I do not know where I stand with this either... I opted for the fourth option. I've experienced and heard of things that I cannot explain, and I think there are things we can influence and/or perceive that are beyond our known senses.

But it might also all be in my head.
Thus, I've decided to believe, but I'm not sure I'm correct in doing this... strange stuff.

@Felinoid: I'm not passing a judgement either way, but you have to expect some serious scepticism when claiming to be able to perform 'magical' acts like that - especially in a place where you won't be able to prove anything like on the internet.

:borg:

Right now, the greatest scientific minds in the world say that there is no such thing as magic.

@ Shoshino -
Once, the greatest scientific minds in the world thought it was flat, and that the sun rotated around it.

So really, are you so small minded that you're going to say that there isn't just a tiny possibility of magic exsting in some form or another? We've been wrong about so many things before, so why not this too?

Anyway, that's my 2 cents... Enjoy!

@Hugo:
:) Scepticism is just fine; I only took offense to the tone of Darkthrone's post (whether intentional or not). Disbelieve if you must, but I'll not have anyone ridiculing the work I've dedicated my life to.

I still think the problem here is the definition of 'magic'. If you say that everything that we don't yet understand scientifically is 'magic' then of course 'magic' exists. There is more 'magic' than science. Gravity is 'magic', for example. If something like telepathy exists, then currently it is 'magic', but only until someone works out the nature of the particles or waves or whatever that are involved, then it would become science instead. Same with tarot cards, or spirits, or anything else like that.

Overall, the question is too vague and we are always going to end up arguing about it because we are looking at it from different view points. An example of a more specific question might be:
Can you accurately predict the future using only the information revealed by tarot cards?

Actually extra sensory perception and psychic prediction could be part of what I'm refering too. Mostly I am enquiring about the belief in "fantastic" things that happen that have no logical explanation.

For example: Finding or owning a particular object that is lucky or unlucky in a very real way.

Or using a concoction to change the events of one's life.

Or realizing that one is on an intended path that is tied with many other paths but is already preset.

Finding or owning a particular object that is lucky or unlucky in a very real way. Like a lottery ticket? Not much magical about that. Or a lucky charm? If you believe it works, then your subconscious mind will help you in powerful ways. I still wouldn't call that 'magic'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

^ that might be worth a look.

Also: www.skepdic.com (http://www.skepdic.com) - lots of natural explainations to paranormal seeming events.

I've always been amazed at the magical influence garish robes possess; couple that with a well-meaning manipulation of shame and fear and you can make people believe anything!


@ Felinoid

Dude, you are full of it. You should stop soon as you might actually meet a girl who believes you.

@LNT:
And you're a bit too full of yourself if you think nothing abnormal can exist.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Disbelieve if you must, but insulting me will only get you one better. :p

@Felinoid: Sorry, please don't take it personally - after all we really do not know each other, right? But if you're sure of your powers, why don't you go and earn yourself a million dollars? Look here:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Well, if I had your powers, I'd be rich now. Any excuses for not taking the challenge?

Just remember what Uncle Ben told Petey: "With great power comes great responsibility."

All that negative energy produced by the silly skeptic scientists' minds will no doubt interfere with the powers of the people aiming for a million dollars.

I believe in magic and always have. Will soon be in practice hopefully. :)

This got moved here (to a serious forum) for a reason - certain people take magic (however you define it) seriously. Picking on Felinoid for his beliefs doesn't make 'magic' any less real to him.

I find it odd that some want 'proof' of magic; be it telepathy or telekinesis or what have you. Does that mean if you cannot touch it or see it for yourself make it something you can disreguard?

@Darkthrone:
:bigeyes: First I've heard of it. Someday, perhaps, but as I said, I'm a practicing esper. I still haven't worked all the kinks out, so the best I can do is ~90% on something as small as a pen. Besides, I don't have the money for such extravagances at the moment. All expenses would be paid by ME, and with the current (unacceptable) possibility of failure, it's not worth the risk just yet. In the future, though... :money:

@LNT:
:shake: I didn't say it was a great power. The best I've been able to do is moving a (small) chair or (normal hollow) door a couple of inches. Certainly no tactical applications ... yet. :evil:

@ Shoshino -
Once, the greatest scientific minds in the world thought it was flat, and that the sun rotated around it.

So really, are you so small minded that you're going to say that there isn't just a tiny possibility of magic exsting in some form or another? We've been wrong about so many things before, so why not this too?
its not called being small minded, its called being a realist, magic is only magic if you dont understand it, then it becomes fact.

isnt an esper a magical being from squaresoft games?

OK Felinoid, whatever you do, never say another word of this to anyone!

How close do you live to a casino with a roulette table?

Once the casino kicks you out, sports gambling my friend! Just send me PM's letting me know which team you are going to help win. If at all possible, make it the Philadelphia Eagles. In fact, no, don't influence their games at all; I want their eventual (this year) Superbowl victory to be pure.

And by the way, once you master the telepathic mind-control portion, let me know: My girlfriend has this crazy notion that I can't date other woman (even lookers!), so it would be nice if you could influence her opinion; no matter how many movies we watch involving French people, it just seems to have no effect!

I find it odd that some want 'proof' of magic; be it telepathy or telekinesis or what have you. Does that mean if you cannot touch it or see it for yourself make it something you can disreguard?Well... Yes. If it has no impact whatsoever on me, then why should I give it any regard?

I find it odd that some want 'proof' of magic; be it telepathy or telekinesis or what have you. Does that mean if you cannot touch it or see it for yourself make it something you can disreguard? if we worked under that notion then we would have to walk around giving regard to everything from fiction ever created, simply because there's no proof it doesnt exist...
what a rediculous notion

Please, kuemper, I'm not picking on a belief anyone holds. I'm picking on a claim that concerns something very real and substantial. And no, I do not think that it is odd to verify or falsify a claim that is verifiable and falsifiable.

And I do believe in things I cannot touch or see. I believe in my brain, although I neither laid hand nor nor eye upon it. ;)

I'm just curious Fel, does your technique involve any grunting or pulsing forehead veins? That would be cool...

isnt an esper a magical being from squaresoft games? Yes, but I think they got it from E.S.P.er, or one who uses E.S.P. I'm not sure about that, but it works.
Felinoid:
Dude, if your joking, that's enough. If you're not, people who mess with things like that generally meet very bad ends (insanity, 'cursed', etc.) I'd say get while the gettin's good.

Did you hear that Fel? Don't mess with magic or you will be cursed!

@Shoshino:
Yes, they did use the term esper to describe the magical beings in FF3 (originally 6 in Japan), but originally the term was coined as ESPer (denoting use of Extra Sensory Perception or other abnormal powers like Psychokinesis).

@LNT:
Whoa there. Telepathy is not mind-control; just communication from mind to mind. Mental domination is not something I would ever pursue. I prefer the randomness of the individual. :roll:

@NOG:
Didn't you notice? I'm already insane. ;) As for the curse, I've had that from birth. Alternating tremendous luck and horrendous luck has shaped my CN nature from the beginning, leading me to believe in the chaos that is the universe. :roll: I fully expect to meet a bad end, but it's not something I'm worried about at the moment.

Fel, if possible, could you please give us a description of your magic: how you do it, what happens, flashes of ethereal light, ect...

I'll have to say that I'm too very sceptical about Fel's abilities but everyone has the right for their beliefs I suppose. ;)

I don't believe in magic, fate, destiny or anything like that. Afterlife being one exception, since no one can really say anything about what happens after we die and no one ever can, so it's to me a bit more complicated matter, probably mostly because of just ceasing to exist does not sound all that fun to me. ;)

Okay. Nothing fancy happens (no light or sounds or anything) and gravity defiance is both unconfirmable and very unlikely, IMO. I've only managed it once for a fraction of a second (by accident) with an inanimate (and very small) object, and my own seemingly floating stride could just be the way I walk.

Horizontal movement seems to be the current limit of my ability, and pushing is considerably harder than pulling. For larger objects like a door or chair, the best I've been able to do is move it a couple inches into my hand, and only rarely at that. Pushing large objects is even more limited, and so far almost negligible.

My technique is fairly cliche: arm pointed at object, open palm facing object. I've also made it work with simply a piercing look, but it's considerably harder to concentrate that way. Emotion helps with focus (the stronger the better), and on occasion I've even done things accidentally when feeling a particularly strong emotion, but such events are rare and untestable due to their unpredictability.

Telepathy is limited to a very small amount of group empathy (sensing the emotions of groups), but is completely (and frustratingly) unconfirmable at this stage since I could just be reading body language or the situationally probable emotion. (Example: Strong belief in a church? Well duh! :rolleyes: )

Felinoid, surely the scepticism being displayed in this thread should not come as a surprise to you. What you are describing is something that none of us have any experience of, so it is only natural that our first reaction would be to say "no way, what are you smoking?"

It is a shame that there is no way for you to show us what you can do so that we can expand our horizons.

Haha, very funny thread.

Well, I don't think you are trying hard enough Fel.

Practice, practice, practice! Commit yourself to practicing every morning, for one hour, nay, two hours, beginning at 5:30 AM. Videotape the entire process, then watch the video, every night, from the hours of nine until eleven PM, taking rigorous notes of all occurances.

If you really want it, you'll follow through.

@HB:
No, I'm not surprised, and frankly I don't expect anyone to believe me, no matter how sterile an environment I perform in. The real question I put before you is "Do you want to believe?" If you do, then whether I can or not is simply an incidental question to your belief, and can be shrugged off easily. If you don't, then I'm certainly not going to convince you no matter how hard I try. As JREF puts it, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Proof which cannot be easily gained in a single lifetime.

That is why I've dedicated myself to the development of telepathy, to the near-exclusion of enhancing my PK. If I can pass my knowledge on to another, perhaps someday the proof can finally be achieved. :bigeyes:

@LNT:
I guess I haven't adequately impressed upon you the difficulty involved. If I did what you're suggesting, I'd have no time or energy for a normal life (much less posting on SP). The continuing utter lack of energy would lead to depression and most likely suicide. Moderation is always the best policy.

It's not a case of wanting or not wanting to believe. If I get enough evidence then I will believe. I try my best to be unbiased.

Hmm, clearly your failure is a personal fault. Your just weak Fel. Someone with something so extraordinarily beneficial to his fellow human beings would devote the whole of his efforts or else be judged abominably selfish by any reasonable individual.

If you weren't such a bad person you would practice ten hours a day.

@LNT:
Let's see you do it. :p You probably don't even have the reserves necessary to pull it off once, much less repeatedly as I have. If I am weak, then you are weaker; consider that before you criticize. Though it's just a theory on my part (derived from subjective experiences, and thus not entirely trustworthy), the difficulty is on a logarithmic scale not unlike the Richter scale.

And it's hardly selfishness to want to be able to continue practicing and learning for as long as I can. Consider a high level of effort (say, your ten hours a day) over a remaining life span of perhaps a year. Compare that to a relatively easy one hour a day over a life span of many decades, and you can see that it's more beneficial to take it slow at first. It's quite likely that I will ramp up the effort as I get older (especially if I'm able to retire comfortably and have more free time), and it is certainly my plan to do so. Still, one can never be certain what changes the future will bring.

"Side effects may include: dry mouth, nausea, vomiting, water
retention, painful rectal itch, hallucination, dementia, psychosis,
coma, death, and halitosis. Magic is not for everyone. Consult your
doctor before use"
Seriously now there are plenty of things we don't not understand dreams , the "placebo" effect (witch was considered by science not true until recently ) etc. ,the worst opinion someone can have is the impossibility of something ,like so many times in history

"Side effects may include: dry mouth, nausea, vomiting, water retention, painful rectal itch, hallucination, dementia, psychosis, coma, death, and halitosis. Magic is not for everyone. Consult your doctor before use" :lol: Well now that you mention it, my bum has been feeling a little itchy lately... :shake:

You do bring up a good point, though. Remember the deep meditiations I mentioned earlier? Poking around in your mind is not for the faint of heart; you can and will find dark things about yourself that you never knew existed. Dementia, psychosis, and pretty much any other psychological ailment are definite risks when attempting something like this.

I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, and for all I know, my ability is simply a delusion resulting from prodding where I shouldn't have. Given others' reactions to things I have made happen, however, it would have to be an extemely large delusion that encompassed my entire world (including SP and all of you :jawdrop: ). And endulging in such thoughts is counter-productive at best; I prefer to simply go on with my life. If this is all real, then I'm fine and nothing has changed. If it's fake, then I'm simply enjoying myself until they pull the plug on my real (and probably comatose) body.

Well Fel, I can only offer a word of caution: Beware as you graduate to larger and larger objects; the force your mind projects will be equally returned as a telekinetic force projected by the object. If you budge a heavy chair, you may receive a concussion for your efforts, if you budge a horse, your brain could be squashed against the back of your skull. It is a dangerous path you "float" down young man.

We are rapidly leaving the realm of AoDA and entering Whatnots -- however, the thread is not moving. Please refrain from posts that are only jokes. Make a point and add a joke, fine. Make a joke with no other point, not fine.

'nuff said.

@dmc:
So if LNT continues to be a joke without a point (JK ;) ), does that mean you'll ban him from the Alleys? :hahaerr: (Uh oh, must make point quickly or face mod wrath.)

@LNT:
It doesn't work that way. I've never felt any 'backlash' from doing it. I figure the alternate force (if any) is applied on the air molecules that the moving object is displacing, in order to move them to the space the object is vacating. Considering the way everything else in the universe works, though, I doubt it's that tidy.

For all I know, I could be ripping a hole in the fabric of space-time (in which case there's SO much more I could be doing :evil: ) or maybe I'm ... well, I can't seem to think of anything mundane, but that's where I was going with this. Wherever in the spectacular-to-mundane spectrum this really fits, the explanation of it is still an unknown, even to those who practice it. I guess if it ever really gets consistant and measurable, they can look for an explanation then; I'm certainly not going to waste time on it while the results are still somewhat unreliable.

I would be interested to know whether your claim to magic has anything in common with this: http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/learn0.html --- which I found some time ago but lacked (and am still lacking...) enough belief in magic to be bothered putting it to the test.

Maybe some more dedicated magic-people here can try it or something *shrugs*

Aik,

Sorry but the link doesn't appear to work.

From memory I have had three personal experiences of the paranormal.
Two dream visions, one of which was a mundane household scene which repeated itself identically the next day. The second was a landscape scene as seen from a house. A couple of weeks later we visited a historical building and the landscape as viewed from the building was a damn close match. It was the first time the building had been opened to the public (it was a country house that had never been fully completed and was being converted to a museum detailing it's life. - It still had graffiti from soldiers based there in world war 2)

The third experience was specifically putting an object at the far side of the room, and finding it at my bedside the next morning.

I have absolutely no extra sensory perception, but I know a number of different people on totally seperate occasions have had reactions to the fireplace in the main hall at my mothers.
Coincidence? possibly - and I'm not aware of any reported haunting of the house. However, the Lady of the house was raped and murdered by the Roundheads (The Parliamentarians in the English Civil War) The house also contains a priest hole with all that might entail and, (supposedly) a secret escape tunnel. However, History does not relate any tale connecting to the fireplace.

The town I grew up in had a history of witchcraft. The infant school was apparently sited where the local coven used to be held and the witches weren't exactly happy about it. I remember Mum (as head of governors) being called out on a weekend after the caretaker had discovered bones in the school grounds. (There was a concern it might have been a sacrificed chicken, which it wasn't). I never understood what the big deal was about. Wicca is not about worshipping the devil as some people seem to believe (thanks to early church teachings). Just treat it as a different religion with their practices as different ways of praying to their gods. (Maybe with a better chance of having your prayers answered?)

Wicca is a very insincear religion based (stolen!) on Alistair Crowley's teachings (who lets face it, was a madman).

How can someone believe in Jesus, the Irish goddess 'Morrigan' and Isis all at the same time, and not expect conflict within their 'religion'?

Whats even more strange is that most Wiccans love Buffy and Charmed. That says it all!

@Aikanaro:
Interesting link. I seem to have skipped a few steps, though. :lol:

@Cuchulainn:
1. Can't argue with that. :heh:
2. Anything's possible when belief comes into play.
3. You don't think they watch it for the plot, do you? :D

Cúchulainn, it depends on whether you get a fluffy or not :p

Some Wiccans (and Pagans in general sometimes) prefer to use the names of a pantheon from history to represent their own gods. It is usually the idea of all gods being a facet of the jewel.

I personally don't see the point of taking names of gods from other religions and placing it for your own though :rolleyes:

People asked for evidence, well here it is:

http://www.psipog.net/media.php

Disclaimer:
May or may not be true
ie it could all be faked

Hmmm? Magic? All I can say is that I *would* like to believe in real life magic. I wish it were real, but it isn't.

If it were, you'd see a lot more fireballs shooting forth from people's fingertips.

*NOTE: Spontaneous combustion does NOT count! :p *

I just find it odd that people are asking Felinoid for proof of his telekinesis. I wasn't trying to argue or anything, it merely seems weird to have doubt about that and not about other things which are equally unproveable and untangible.

not about other things which are equally unproveable and untangible. Like what? In my experience, SP people are always quick to be sceptical of anything like that. Anyway, Felinoid's information would be really easy to prove if we could be there to see it.

@ Kuemper

I'm curious to hear more details about your death/near-death/other side experience.

not about other things which are equally unproveable and untangible. Like what? In my experience, SP people are always quick to be sceptical of anything like that. Anyway, Felinoid's information would be really easy to prove if we could be there to see it. :lol: :lol: :hahaerr: Wait, you're serious, aren't you? Well, the duh answer is religion, and I'm sure other things apply as well to each individual. As for it being easy to prove, perhaps I should expand upon my earlier comment:
... frankly I don't expect anyone to believe me, no matter how sterile an environment I perform in. It doesn't really matter how well I can prove it. People who don't want to believe simply won't, even if it were to become a science. If you need any proof of that, you need only to look at such highly charged issues as evolution and its ilk.

Like what? In my experience, SP people are always quick to be sceptical of anything like that. Anyway, Felinoid's information would be really easy to prove if we could be there to see it. but even that wouldnt convince a human being, or do you believe that paul daniels and so many other 'magicians' really do magic before your eyes?

the only real way to convince someone is if they could do it themselves.