Mormons! [Archive] - Boards o' Magick

Gnarfflinger

Mon, 10th Oct '05, 9:31am

First, The third link posted in the original post is, in fact, the official Church website. The first two are penned by those that have left the church.

While some facts are correct, much of it is not.

They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.The Gospel is huge and complicated, and the early principles must be taught first. Much of what this section mentions (the correct stuff, not the lies) involves the more advanced details. There weren't too many real surprises for me (except of course how meanspirited these anti-mormon people could be).

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832The version as presented was written as an introduction to the Book of Mormon. There was a lengthy delay between the First Vision and receiving the Book of Mormon, and the procedure of translation of the Book of Mormon was a time consuming process, interrupted on more than one occasion by the mobs that wanted to silence Joseph Smith.

Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence manAnd how many politicians make similar claims about their opponents? Their wrath against the faith undermines such credibility.

No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point.Um, if you saw some plates made of Gold and Brass, wouldn't you want to take it for the metal that it was made of? That is whyu they were kept hidden until the time to reveal them to those selected witnesses. Further, those were among the first families to join the Church. There wasn't a huge pool of members to choose from...

The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.If you read the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, the Scribes and Pharisees didn't understand the Law of Moses that well either. The Nephites had Prophets and a body of Priesthood in place to minister unto the people as commanded by the prophets.

Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.We actually have the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenents as well as the Pearl of Great Price as well as about 175 or so years of words from the prophets that walked the earth since then.

Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet Let's see, The mobs probably destroyed or forced them to abandon the Kirkland Bank. This was the actions of the mob, where the members themselves chose this course of action. I would believe the same that hindered the gathering of Zion in Missouri. I believe that the Deseret Alphabet was abandoned as the Church was growing too fast to completely abandon the use of other languages. The remaining references I haven't heard of.

A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church and its "prophet, seer and revelator" accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax.And who were the victims of these murders? If they knew about the hoax, then the Church may not have been totally fooled. And wouldn't the church have to be "victimized" by this hoax so that the criminal would be caught and brought to justice?

The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father)Never heard that one before. Adam was, in the premortal existance, Michael, and Archangel.

the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church)The Law of Consecration. It is a recognition that we only have stewardship over the things that we are perceived to own. God has placed certain resources in our hands, and from there we expand the stewardship as we choose. We, by making the covenant to obey this law, remember this, and seek to use what we have to advance the Kingdom of God on the Earth.

Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven)I know the church practised this, and abandoned it under pressure from the United States Government in 1891 I believe. I never heard anything about having multiple wives being mandatory for admittance into the Celestial Kingdom.

the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978)Funny how I never heard anything about the "Curse of Cain" until I started to hear from Anti Mormons. I know that in 1978, the Priesthood was explicitly extended to all worthy men regardless of Colour. I do remember that in the early days of the Church, They did not challenge the rights of slave owners in the South, and therefore could not teach the gospel to Enslaved Blacks without the permission of their owners.

Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities)That one was pure :bs: Adulterers face Excommunication, as do those that fully apostasize (sever ties with the church and ask that their records be deleted). The principle of a "Church Executioner" directly contradicts official Church Doctrine as presented here:

***We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world's goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 134:10)
***

Basically, that ultimately debunks the notion of a Church executioner.

The information about the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible came from the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now known simply as The Community of Chirst. They split from the main body of the Church after the Death of Joseph Smith. They believed that one of Joseph Smith's sons should succeed him as Prophet of God.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.No act of God or prophecy given through any prophet can supercede the free agency of man. If the prophecy was made (and the orders given) the person involved could still refuse or be thwarted by the interference of others, thus screwing over that prophecy.

Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."First, He was in Jail, how would he get the firearms? Secondly, What verification is there of alleged sexual sin on his part? Thirdly, he had announced his candidacy to run for President of the United States. These could have been easily fabricated (along with these alleged threats to burn down the newspaper office). This from an account of someone in the Jail Cell with him:

***They were innocent of any crime, as they had often been proved before, and were only confined in jail by the conspiracy of traitors and wicked men; and their innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail is a broad seal affixed to "Mormonism" that cannot be rejected by any court on earth, and their innocent blood on the escutcheon of the State of Illinois, with the broken faith of the State as pledged by the governor, is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 135:7)
***

Mormonism includes many other unusual doctrines which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These doctrines are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine.Like I said, there is much to learn about the Gospel. The sheer volume would likely intimidate many prospective members. Most are accurate, but a few I will touch on...

Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly FatherFirst off, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring"
(New Testament | Acts 17:28)

Secondly, Lucifer was indeed a spirit Child of God, like us, but he proposed an alternative version of the Plan by which we may all return. 2 out of three of God's Children voted in favour of Christ's plan.

Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.The only ones that failed any test were those who folloed Lucifer when he was cast out of Heaven to become the Devil. We, the ones that came to earth, were the ones that voted in favour of Jesus Christ's plan.

Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.I haven't heard that one either. Polyandry (women having multiple husbands) has never been sanctioned in the Laws of God, therefore considering the eternal nature of Marriage, I am suspicious of that one...

Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.Again, I've never heard anything official on that one either. I'd be tempted to call that :bs: that comes from those that hate the Church.

You will be expected to donate at least ten percent of your income to the church as tithing. Other donations will be expected as the need arises. You will never see an accounting of how this money is spent, or how much the church receives, or anything at all about its financial condition; the church keeps its finances secret, even from its members. Tithing monies are used to build Chapels and Temples throughout the world. The church asks for regular donations to other causes:

Fast Offering: Basically the cost ov the food you would have consumed but forgone when you participated in a monthly fast (usually the first Sunday of the month) which seldom lasts more than 24 hours (those who cannot participate due to health reasons are excused from fasting but still invited to contribute money as per their ability). this money goes to an account to help those in need at the discretion of the Bishop.

Humanitarian Aid: This goes to areas that have been devastated by natural disasters and to help those in poorer regions (like Africa). It is administered by the Church itself.

Missionary Fund: This money goes to help those from poorer families afford the cost of a mission and to help thoise missionaries in more expensive regions.

Book of Mormon fund: This money is used to produce copies of the Book of Mormon that missionaries may distribute free of charge to those interested in the church.

Perpetual Education fund: This is designed to help poorer members pursue education so that they may become productive members of society and may support families.

You will be expected to give up the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea.This is the Word of Wisdom. We are also asked to abstain from illegal drugs as well. You won't be excommunicated for failing here, but you won't be eligible to enter the House of the Lord either. They tell you this when you investigate the church.

You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you. These assignments may be teaching, record keeping, janitorial work, cannery or farm work, helping in the Sunday nursery - any job that needs to be done. Each task you perform successfully will make you eligible for others, with more responsibility and more demands upon your time. The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy). You will be told that God has called you to your assignments. Many Mormons find much of their spare time taken up with church work, trying to fulfill the numerous assignments that have been given them.Would you rather a religion where you sit through a boring sermon for a couple hours on a Sunday and go out and do as you please the rest of the week? The full organization of the Church requires the services of numerous people, and many hands make the work lighter. I myself have been called to serve with the youth. Many people find that they enjoy their callings. Sure they can be stressful at times, but I find that the rewards (spiritually) are worth the sacrifices asked of me.

You will be advised not to read any material which is "not faith-promoting," that is, which may be critical or questioning of the church or its leaders, or which might place the church or its leaders in an unfavorable light.I don't seek that crap out, but here at SP, I have been exposed to it on more than one occasion. Basically, I rely on the Gift of the Holy Ghost to point out what is :bs: in their arguements, and this guidance in replying to it and supplying answers.

You will be advised not to associate with "apostates," that is, former Mormons. (You will be asked in your "worthiness" interview about this.):bs: When the father of one from our ward who left the church died, a number of us signed a sympathy card to send to him. They are still our spirit Brothers and Sisters, despite the fact that they have left the Church and renounced their ties to it. Further, the question as I remember it, is "Do you agree with, affiliate with or belong to any individual or group who's teachings are contradictory to those of the Church?"

If you are unmarried, you will be encouraged to marry a good Mormon as soon as possible. When you do marry, in a wedding ceremony in the temple, your non-Mormon family members and friends will not be allowed to attend the ceremony, because only "worthy" Mormons are allowed to enter the temple. Encouraged, yes, but they really aren't pushy about it. Only the men are encouraged to marry women of course. Free Agency is respected in regards to mate selection, and if you do not believe that you have found the right one, then that is, ultimately, accepted.

If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated.Homosexuality is a sin, and we do not believe it to be pathology or a genetic condition. It is instead a temptation which must be resisted and overcome. Further, any sexual sin may be punished by excommunication. This includes fornication, adultery, homosexuality, incest, pedophilia, and beastiality.

If you are female, you will receive the benefits of priesthood authority only indirectly, through your Mormon father or your Mormon husband. The role of the Mormon woman is to be a wife and mother and to obey and honor her priest husband (or father).The roles of Wife and Mother are much more important and sacred than the world makes them out to be. Further, there are many important and vital callings that women fulfill.

As part of that ceremony you will be required to swear a number of oaths, the penalty for violation of which is no longer stated but until 1990 was death by various bloody methods, such as having your throat slit from ear to ear.The fact that there were ex-mormons before 1990 means that that couldn't be true. Were this to be true, they'd have been murdered in a brutal and bloody fashion. Further, that claim directly contradicts the Law of God where it states "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and thus discredits these claims.

Further, the links provided on that site are to sites that oppose the church and it's teachings, and often lace their words with hatred of the church.

As to the second link, this one is quite scary, and I take the opposite view. When we sin, we take upon ourselves the chains of death and Hell. By obedience and repentance we free ourselves of these chains.

For example, the ultimate sacrament ritual, symbolized by the partaking of the bread and water, is the sacrifice of Christ's body as a means of uniting all (worthy) humankind together, and humankind with God. And as Paul makes clear (in an almost gleeful kind of way), each human being must re-enact Christ's sacrifice not just through taking the bread and water, but through the annihilation of his/her own humanity, that is, the "crucifixion of their own flesh" (see, e.g., Galatians 5, Romans 6, etc.).We were told in the beginning that we would all die and be ressurected as Christ was. We should not, however seek to bring this end forward faster than usual. The Sacrement is taken in memory of the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on our behalf. It is the renewal of covenents made at baptism. Baptism itself symbolizes a death of the old self and a ressurection of you into a new life, free of your past sins.

We have as Mormons the obligation of murdering all those parts of our humanity which can’t in the end squeeze into the church’s unusually constricting mould of the “ideal” male and female. In other words, cult righteousness equals de-humanization.Wrong. While certain standards are to be maintained, we are not tossed into a cookie cutter to come out identical. We are still unique sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father.

The “natural man is an enemy to God”In our natural state, we would be disinclined to help those less fortunate, to sacrifice our own comfort for any other reason, or to refrain from seeking pleasure on grounds of morality. That is what makes the natural man an enemy to God.

Feminists must become Mollies. “Los machos” must give up the motorcycle tours, Metallica, and Maxim magazine, and Ned Flanderize themselves. Those with some sense of autonomy must overcome their “rebelliousness” and submit every last aspect of their lives to priesthood “authority”.This is not doctrine, but rather social pressures that exist in some ways. This is also doctrinally not supported. The standards are not as extreme as this person claims. While all men are encouraged to wear a white shirt and a tie to Sacrement meetings, they will not be ejected, shunned or refused admission for wearing another colour shirt.

Homosexuals must become heterosexuals, or at least, are required to spend their lives killing off what now appears to be an innate proclivity. Males and females who would rather remain childless must overcome this “wicked tendency”, and reproduce. Those who see wisdom in waiting to marry, see wrongly - they must marry when they are young. They don’t know what is best for them. Homosexuality is NOT an innate proclivity, but a temptation, furthered by such drivel as claimed by the gay community. it is to be resisted. Further, The Family is central to the church. Remaining single, delaying childbirth and homosexuality are contrary to God's plan for our happiness. Now again, they don't shun or excommunicate you if you are single too long, but they do have programs that enable you to meet other single members.

We must kill off our own tastes, our own innate predispositions, our own feelings and longings and ambitions and dreams and conclusions - our own conscience - everything that makes us the miracles we are.Wrong, We are still given freedom to choose for ourselves and given a list of expectations.

In allowing this, we cut ourselves from the ability to feel that “philanthropos”, or brotherly/sisterly love, which was what the whole cult was supposed to be about in the first place. But they never are in the end about that, because they are all frauds. In the end, they are about the destruction of all that could be considered humanity, since the realization of the selfish ambitions and stupid delusions of the cult leader is completely incompatible with the existence of humanity, with the preservation of human nature. Humanity must be annihilated.WTF? The bottom line is that Jesus told us to love thy neighbour as thyself. He didn't say love only our perfect neighbours...

Once I longed to be a martyr for the church (in Argentina, on my mission). When that didn’t pan out and I returned home, I myself undertook to effect just that demolition of my own uniqueness and character in its service.A martyr? We are only asked to give our lives if necessary. That is seldom necessary any more. If this guy wants to die, then maybe he needs psychiatric help--from someone without an anti-religious axe to grind...

I hardened myself against embarrassment when asked in public about polygamy or temple garments or man’s eventual deification.I don't find it embarrasing about polygamy, only irritating that the full story isn't public, only the parts that could be defamatory to the Church...

I had to be willing to sacrifice anything - all my money, my children, my wife, my life - for the cult. And guess what? I made it, to a surprising degree. I myself, just as all others have, became the happy agent of the destruction of my own humanity. So, my children weren’t “my children” so much as they were “future priesthood holders”, “future Eagle scouts”, “future missionaries”, “future married-in-the-temple people”, etc.Nobody is taking you children away from you. I will always be a son to my earthly parents, no matter what I do in the church. I've even heard President Hinckley refer to his son as his son...

we begin to ask questions like, “How can we live so as to get along better with each other? How do we best alleviate suffering? How do we most effectively bless the lives of our fellow human beings? How can I help leave the world a better place than I found it?”. What is so peculiar now is that it is precisely THOSE questions which yield the best chance of leading to answers which will truly help life to flourish, to be lived to its full potential. It is the insatiable demands and mean, cheap, petty questions of cults based on claims which have NO evidence to support them, like those of Mormonism, which seem to do the most damage to life.But if you live the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ, those questions can be answered. What? that not good enough for him because it can't be proven?

As a Mormon, I can assure you that we are not dehumanized. My bishop know that I like to go to Heavy Metal concerts, and hasn't withheld my Temple Recommend. I myself cannot fit in a cookie cutter mould, and that is NOT asked of me.

AS for the site about religious tolerance, they provide theological arguements against the 17 points that set the church apart from all the other religions. I can see that their objective is to see all religions treated fairly and equally, and so they would want to take us down a peg. I challenge those of you who ahve faith in God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ to look up these references and pray about them and make your own decision.

Albatron, from the sounds of it, you will have a lot of Mormon neighbours. Relax, they aren't freaks, they are kind, honest, and would make great friends. They can't force you to join the church...