As luck would often have it, while commentng several says ago on the new "Sports Forum," I was personally met with a very fast rebuke when I dared to suggest that there were some "serious" issues and problems with sports that may be worth commenting on.

Now, it seems that there is a popular football team that has taken their namesake a bit too seriously. The real Vikings, dating from about 1000 years ago, still have a reputation - sometimes deserved, sometimes not - for being terrors of the sea. To be sure they were probably the most accomplished seamen of their time. But as for their bad behavior, that was sometimes, and I would like to emphasize, sometimes, more the stuff of legends. So just how are the "Vikings" giving the Vikings a bad name anyway?

The present day Vikings are accused of illegal use of drugs and extreme lewdness while renting a couple of yachts on Lake Minnetonka.

Law enforcement officials told the Star-Tribune the party became so out of control that crew members on the two yachts were offered money for sex and feared for their safety.

Doyle told the Star-Tribune behavior on the cruise included oral sex, masturbation and playing with sex toys.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9665387/

It seems to me that sports remains in a state of serious crisis. There was hope last year, after the horrid exhibition of violence that broke out at some basketball game, that people would take themselves and their conduct more seriously in sports. Fat chance. Then there was the Janet Jackson incident during a half-time program. But I could build quite a long list here. This is from a separate editoral:

The allegations include prostitutes and drugs. Imagine a sports team going in for that sort of thing.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7632897/

Yes, imagine that. But the issue is really something about accountability, and there is far too little of it.

The issue is control and accountability, especially during a season that hasn’t started all that well for a team that some still regularly pick to go to the Super Bowl. Partying is one thing. Tearing up a lake is another.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7632897/

Some may think that I'm making too fine a point here. Well, I'm one of those individuals who has kids. Yes, I'm a parent. My kids will probably become interested in sports at some point, even though I have very little interest myself, since there is tremendous pressure in our society for young people to be invovled in this "activity" at some point. There is nothing wrong with sports in itself. Someone could just as easily turn this around and say that those in the popular music business suffer from the same issues, or any other area where there is an easy accumulation of wealth and fame. But would you consider Tommy Lee and Pamela to be great "role models" for your kids? Probably not, unless you are reading this on a computer in a state prison or in a rehab center somewhere.

But the whole notion of role models anyway may be a bit out-dated, belonging to a more innocent time when people had hero worship for sports figures. There was time when they were somehow supposed to represent the best in American values. Those values were not some vague list of concepts, but what now appears to be out-dated notions of courage, self-discipline, fairness and sportsmanship - you know-- the good things.

The best solution as I see it, is that the best role models are still parents. That may seem quite astounding, given all the hero worship that goes on in society, despite that extreme lack of accountability. But there's a problem: Would kids actually wish to be like their parents, given all the great examples that we have in contemporary society? Well, there are always the Vikings.

[ October 12, 2005, 20:47: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

They should all be suspended indefinitely and possibly even face criminal charges, should any be warranted. I say this not only as a Packers fan, but also as someone who believes that even athletes should be held to the law. The Packers may have had less than their share of criminals, but that is ony because of strict standards. Mark Chmura was cast out as soon as they learned of his crime (statutory rape; IIRC, she was 16, consenting, and deceitful about her age), and Chris Jacke was cut when Holmgren began to suspect that Jacke wanted to be, shall we say, "more than friendly" with Holmgren's underage daughter. I doubt that Darren Sharper (a recent steal from the Packers) participated in this disgusting display, but if he did then he deserves everything that's coming to him. This kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated; they are but men, and should be treated accordingly.

EDIT: Typos.

[ October 12, 2005, 20:39: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

Hmmm... Offering money for sex is certainly illegal, and illegal drugs are obviously illegal, but are any of the other things actually illegal? I mean having an orgy on a yacht may be considered a very poor moral decision, but if it is conducted in a private setting (and I'm assuming a yacht is at least somewhat private) between consenting adults, is it actually illegal?

The other thing I noticed is the two women who are bringing these charges worked as hostesses on the yachts. So, while these charges seem serious, it seems like there is very little evidence to back up the claims. This may turn into a public relations nightmare for the Vikings, but good luck getting convictions without any evidence beyond "because I said so".

I do remember the Chimura incident from a few years ago as well. I always that was BS anyway, as 16 is the consent law. Yes, it was sex with a minor, but it was sex with a minor who had reached the age of consent.

Nothing will come of this regardless. Keep in mind these people are profession football players. As a result, they are extremely highly paid, can afford excellent attorneys, and there is no proof of their misdeeds unless one of the hostesses happened to have a camera. In fact, if there is no camera, it wouldn't surprise me if the Vikings brought slander charges against her.

I do remember the Chimura incident from a few years ago as well. I always that was BS anyway, as 16 is the consent law. Yes, it was sex with a minor, but it was sex with a minor who had reached the age of consent. Actually, the age of consent is different in different states. I've heard it's as low as 14 in some places, but up here in WI it's 18. 16 or 17 is considered a lesser crime (statutory rape) than 15 or younger (just plain rape), but Chmura still committed a crime, however unwittingly.

Nothing will come of this regardless. Keep in mind these people are profession football players. As a result, they are extremely highly paid, can afford excellent attorneys, and there is no proof of their misdeeds unless one of the hostesses happened to have a camera. In fact, if there is no camera, it wouldn't surprise me if the Vikings brought slander charges against her. I'm afraid I have to agree. Noone in professional sports is held accountable without a landslide of proof, but that's not going to stop me from seething about unfair treatment. :mad:

Noone in professional sprots is held accountable without a landslide of proofAnd sometimes that's not even enough. Reference OJ.

Now now, we all know OJ didn't murder those poor folks; it was an unknown person cleverly disguised in his DNA.

Chandos...my guess would be that the Vikings (Minnesota) got into trouble because Randy Moss wasn't there to attract all the "bad boy" attention.

The sports influence on your children goes deeper than marquee atheletes who do wrong. Your children will be exposed to coaches and fellow players who will have a drastically different set of morals from you. It's a very powerful moment to be celebrating a victory on the field and have peers or coaches you respect intimate that now it's time to go "conquer" some girl...or that it's "Miller Time".

Even in our day of supposed enlightenment, the locker room continues to be a bastion of sexism, racism and misogyny.

I have a multi-sport son, who due to God given talent, is usually competing with boys a year or two older than him. It's a constant struggle to be vigilant to insure that his attitudes aren't warped by the crowd. I can see the tremendous benefit that competitive sports has brought to his life in terms of confidence and physical ability...but it can be a slippery slope for someone with weak will or morals.

Aren't all the problems you mentioned (sex, drugs, partying) fairly common amongst men whom are in their mid to late twenties and millionaires many times over?

HS - I'm not sure who Randy Moss is, but I'm sure of one thing, and that is that your son is a lucky guy to have a gentleman like you for a father. I may not know you beyond this board, but what I do know of you, convinces me that you are an excellent role model for your children. I'm very sincere in sayng this.

And that is a part of my larger point here. It's up to each parent to provide the role modeling that is necessary for our children to develop properly. IMO, sports has become a negative influence in our society. Yet, why should something that is supposed to represent some of the things we highly value, be something that I have to shield my children from? Again, it's because there is no accountability.

Randy Moss is probably the best wide reciever in the league. He has so much talent it is frightening. He was traded by Minnesota to the Oakland Raiders. He was also the first round pick in two of my fantasy leagues.

More on point. What do people expect when you put millions of dollars in the hands of people that are basically still children? They act irresponsibly, why is anyone surprised? Chandos is 100% correct (one of the few times I can say that :) ) It is up to parents to be the role models for their kids.

I'm coaching a boys 9 and 10 year old soccer team. Now I admit, I know next to nothing about soccer. I'm basically teaching them to play hockey on grass without a stick. However, I'm also teaching them teamwork and good sportsmanship. Even more important, I'm teaching them to not sit on their asses and to enjoy physical activity. It is when sports turn into a business that things get really warped, and this is coming from an avowed sports freak.

Sadly, I have to agree with Fel, Hack and Aldeth. It's a fairly big issue over here, particularly as regards the various football codes (except soccer) and some cricketers. In a country that loves sport as much as Australia, it's difficult to make people realise that just because someone is a fantastic athlete, they may not be a good role model. To steal a line from a local club owner who won't let footy players in, "they're like prunes - one or two are okay, but any more just give you the sh**s".

The line between admiration and repulsion can easily be crossed, especially if one of the more Neanderthal specimens sees sexual conquests as an entitlement based on his physical prowess.

Early last year, there was an investigation into allegations of gang rape by a number of professional rugby players during an end-of-season holiday. No charges were laid, although to the police investigator's lasting credit, when asked if that meant the accused men were innocent, he replied, "No, it means there isn't enough evidence to proceed with the case." In short, he believed they were guilty, but couldn't prove it in court.

There were also a couple of investigations of alleged rape by AFL footballers from the St Kilda club. Again, no matters brought to court, for similar reasons. And I'm certain that some of the English SPers can provide a link about Shane Warne's doings off the cricket pitch.

@ Hack: I second Chandos's sentiments; too many people seem willing to take the "boys will be boys" line and forget their responsibilities.

Randy Moss is probably the best wide reciever in the league. He has so much talent it is frightening. He was traded by Minnesota to the Oakland Raiders. Well, I still don't know who the guy is. But I'm not familar with football. I even thought that the Raiders were still playing in L.A. But they may have moved since the last time I heard anything about them.

For many years, we have had a very popular Republican congressman - Kevin Brady. He has served in the House for as long as I can remember. And he also knows me, because I hardly give him a moments peace. I am always writing him, complaining about something (can you imagine?). Anyway, this last week he was stopped for driving under the influence. Some are saying that his politcal career is over as a result. That remains to be seen. But guess where he was returning from when he was stopped? If you guessed a Friday night football game, where he received an award - you win the grand prize - and maybe a trip on a boat with the Vikings.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3391019

[ October 13, 2005, 04:56: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

A secondary question is: Should professional athletes feel any obligation to be role-models? Why does being famous place some requirement that they be upstanding citizens? Due to their god-given talent, they make loads of money. Does being rich mean they have to be role-models? Frankly, the fact that they make lots of money is the most important thing not only to the athletes, but their teams, and also the league as a whole. In a perfect world, athletes would be role-models, but they are not a substitute for the parents, and are in no way obligated to do so.

To quote Charles Barkley (ex-professional basketball player): "Just because I can dunk, doesn't mean I should raise your kids."

Does being rich mean they have to be role-models? Being rich does not make them role-models. Otherwise Bill Gates and Donald Trump could be considered role-models also. But that's a whole other question: Just because they can play, what is essentially a kid's game, does that make them entitled to the massive wealth and fame which is bestowed upon them? And while I did not want to really visit that aspect of the problem, it would seem that the whole sports frenzy, which grips many, is a completely over-blown pursuit. But that's just my opinion. It's no more valid or invalid than anyone's opinion regarding this aspect of the issue.

I have friends who laugh at me for posting, and spending time, on a D&D internet site. Yeah, they think Dungeons and Dragons is only for teenagers who have trouble getting dates. Yet, they hoot and holler just because some Joe can throw a ball through a hoop. So who should really be doing the laughing here?

[ October 14, 2005, 16:11: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

exceptional ability --> on TV --> lots of money
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . role-model

But Fel, just being on TV isn't justification enough to be a role-model either. Are movie stars expected to be role-models? They also make tons of money, are famous, have exceptional ability and are on TV all the time. Or for that matter, what about muscial bands? The only thing that really separates them is in what area they have exceptional ability. And yet, there seems to be a societal expectation that athletes be role-models, and that's a standard that the other groups are not held to.

Almost everyone on TV is a role model to at least one person. They shouldn't be, but they still are. :rolleyes:

The owner had a few words over what had happened. It's good to know that he is taking this seriously:


Wilf, in his first comments since the boat party last week, said he has apologized to the governor. He also has spoken with his players, who will be held to a code demanding “high standards, high morals and success.”

“I expressed my anger and I expressed my embarrassment, my embarrassment on behalf of my family and for the people who work hard here,” Wilf said, regarding his remarks to the players.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9665387/