Why are Europeans fed up with Americans, and why are Americans jealous of Europeans...?

How do you feel about the other continent, what would you like there and what would you change there? Why do Americans get on your nerves, and why do Europeans piss you off?

Europeans don't piss me off. Americans on the other hand.... no comment. Don't want to get banned.

I predict that this thread soon will be too political for Whatnots. I see it being moved.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not fed up with America. Maybe thoroughly fed up with a couple of Americans and certain American policies, but not fed up with America.
I could say this about some European countries and persons, albeit with less emphasis.

There are a number of things, and some very important ones, I hold very dear about America, it's just that some of them are hard to find these days. Talk about decent donuts as a less important example ... :1eye:

I don't mean to hurt people's feelings, I was just hoping people would come up with some funny "facts", so we can all have a good laugh...

For example: "I like the fact that all American girls get a boob job on their 18th birthday..." And more stuff like that...
But if we can't be polite and humorous about each other, than this topic is of no use...

I sense this topic could turn into flaming war. It would be best not to touch this subject to avoid hurting feelings.

I have no problems with Americans, over the years i've met quite a few of em on the internet, some of which become good friends, and i hope to meet them someday in real life.

Also, i haven't met a single American who is jealous of Europeans, i don't know where that misconception is coming from, and i honestly wouldn't know why they should be jealous. On the other hand, i do know quite a few Europeans who act annoyingly frustrated towards anything or anyone from the US, and i feel that in most cases those sentiments are born out of jealousy, so i believe it's the other way around, but that's just me.

Of course i've also met several American boneheads, but you can find those in any culture.

Voice1 Europeans hate americans because they have money whilst americans are jealous of europeans because they have history and culture.

Voice2 It's complete :bs: and propogated by that icon of truth Hollwood; but that's probably what you meant isn't it.

Voice2 aside Why is it that whenever someone mentions BS you immediately smell Texas

Voice1 exeunt left muttering I talk to the trees that's why they put me away

Voice2 exeunt centre

voice3 exeunt left

Pac man,
except for the jealousy aspect, which I doubt in, there is also one of disappointment, or disillusionment. That's first of all for politics. But I don't even think that politics, how controversial however, are the key. They are merely a symptom.

IMO the big underlying point here is the issue of differences in menthality and about schools of thought. That is a point that in earlier discussions caused the biggest controversies. I suggest searching the archives on that. Or to PM me.

As for American lifestyle or culture, we in the 'West' are all pretty much on board there and like it. That certainly is not the point of friction between Europe and America.

Hey, i like differences in mentality, if not for that, the world would be a gray boring place. I even like the "our buildings are bigger than yours" mentality, it always makes me chuckle. Some people can get immensely pissed with those statements, but why ? Aren't we in a way all doing the same ? The French can be pretty cocky too, possibly even worse than the Americans. And now that i mention it, my own fellow countrymen also know how to annoy others. I prefer to relativate statements like that, everyone is kinda proud of his nation's achievements, if you want to bragg about it, be my guest, i don't mind.

@ Darkstrider

I have money too, will that cost me my European citizenship ? Now that i think of it, so does everyone i know. Matter of fact, i hardly know any people that don't have money, yet none of them are Americans, please elaborate because it confuses the hell out of me. :shake:

Oh, and Americans have culture and history too, a lot of Europeans even try to copy American culture. We eat Cheeseburgers at McDonalds, drink Coca Cola, wear Nikes and Jeans, listen to Hip Hop, celebrate Halloween and other American traditional festivities, need i go on ?

Americans are not jealous of European history, at least not the ones i know. They hardly know a damn thing about it because A) they don't care, or B) they didn't get properly educated.

I sometimes call myself "an American trapped inside a European body", just for fun, but there might be more truth inthere, than i could possibly imagine. :D

@Pac man

Voice3 enter stage left Was I been serious no I don't think so as Voice2 pointed out Voice1 is all BS ....

Voice3 exeunt right

If you're hearing so many voices, go see a shrink. :D

Oh, and Americans have culture and history too, a lot of Europeans even try to copy American culture. We eat Cheeseburgers at McDonalds, drink Coca Cola, wear Nikes and Jeans, listen to Hip Hop, celebrate Halloween and other American traditional festivities, need i go on ? Speak for yourself Pacman :D , and BTW Halloween is Irish/Scottish, not US. Its called "Samhain" here, and "Hallo'ween" in Scotland.

But back on topic, I find that the US is the land of extremes. Some of the nicest people come from there, and some of the worst people I have ever met also come from there, but no culture is perfect. I only find it annoying when some US citizens tell me they are 'Irish' but cannot name a city apart from Dublin, and think that to make traditional Irish food, you take any popular dish, and replace the water with Guiness (don't believe me? Then visit any Irish pub in the US!). Of course I don't like US government policies, but that is nothing to judge the people on. Its a bit patronising to call cheeseburgers and other fast foods, 'US' foods, as they have some great breads there, and all the black American dishes are superb.

I never said I was hearing voices, just because I was bored and decided to write some meaningless chaff as stage directions. As for shrinks the ones I've met socially all tell me that as my mind focus is analytical they'd hate to see as a patient. Not that I'd go.....

There are things about both that I love and things I can't bear. Sometimes Europe feels like an oasis of omnipresent leftism. The blind kind of compulsory leftism on European universities, if you know what I mean. That would be my pet peeve with regard to Europe, I think. On the American side, I don't like certain products of the tension between the strict puritan traditions and the lavish liberties in the area of morality. For example, I lack words to express how I utterly hate the non-exclusive dating tradition (nb. there are rumours of the concept being actually European). I profoundly dislike bad manners and by this I don't mean deficient etiquette but plain gross behaviour. However, of that both sides of the pond are equally guilty, which makes them blow equally hard. Maybe HB, NS and the rest tell us what things look like on the back side of the world? :p

For example: "I like the fact that all American girls get a boob job on their 18th birthday..." And more stuff like that...That's not funny, that's sad. And I hope it isn't true, although it's probably becoming like that. Europe follows, anyway, I guess. Does anyone happen to have some statistics?

The citizen of US are okay, probably, but I'm pretty fed up to the "americanism." I mean: can't the news find anything better to report than what Mr. Bush is bombing again or who has sued what. Personally, I would like to hear more about Asia and South-America for change.

I don't really have a problem with America in general but I've met a few persons from there and their deeply arrogant behaviour was something astonishing. They were not adults however and only some teenagers who were visiting my former school so it probably does not reflect the entire or even the majority of the American population, I've met plenty of Finns who are complete dicks too. ;)

You can't seriously believe this:

For example: "I like the fact that all American girls get a boob job on their 18th birthday..." Come on -- get a grip. If you want to list stupid stereotypes then say so in the thread.

I don't personally know any American who is jealous of Europeans. In fact, most Americans are happy with living and staying in America (I'm not saying that's a good thing).

I have money too, will that cost me my European citizenship ? Now that i think of it, so does everyone i know. Matter of fact, i hardly know any people that don't have money, yet none of them are Americans, please elaborate because it confuses the hell out of me.

Oh, and Americans have culture and history too, a lot of Europeans even try to copy American culture. We eat Cheeseburgers at McDonalds, drink Coca Cola, wear Nikes and Jeans, listen to Hip Hop, celebrate Halloween and other American traditional festivities, need i go on ?

The americans have more millionaires and billionaires than any other country and that was what I was referring to. I am fortunate enough to be in 1 of those classes, though I'm not american.

The americans have culture ? Well sort of their's is mish-mash of various european influences and some african. The real culture of america the european immigrants tried to suppress, but some pockets of it can still be found; Navajo, Cree, Blackfoot, Sioux etc. As an aside were you aware that the first use of a biological weapon was by the U.S. Cavalry when they knowingly gave smallpox infected blankets to the Native american Indians. Apart from thanksgiving the majority of their festivals come from europe somewhere.

Fast food is not evidence of culture it is evidence of laziness and apathy IMO.

Of course all of this is opinion and you're quite welcome to ignore it my original post was just a bit of fun sadly misinterpreted

I don't hate Americans, just their government.

What is it you like about their government how funny it is or how corrupt ?

I can't really comment either way, since I'm off the continents completely. :lol:

A totally silly reason - Greenland.

I don't personally know any American who is jealous of Europeans. In fact, most Americans are happy with living and staying in America (I'm not saying that's a good thing).That's quite healthy. I feel the same about living in Europe, I guess. We're still parts of the same euroatlantic civilisation (as one of the profs at my uni likes to call it), but mindsets are so different that it could be difficult to adjust. There are some tempting perspectives, indeed, and very much so, but I definitely feel much more home in Europe.

hmm, lame topic meant to induce flame war >.>
We are all part of the human race people.

The americans have culture ? Well sort of their's is mish-mash of various european influences and some african. The real culture of america the european immigrants tried to suppress, but some pockets of it can still be found; Navajo, Cree, Blackfoot, Sioux etc. As an aside were you aware that the first use of a biological weapon was by the U.S. Cavalry when they knowingly gave smallpox infected blankets to the Native american Indians. Apart from thanksgiving the majority of their festivals come from europe somewhere.I'm hoping you forgot to put a smiley in there, DarkStrider. There's a difference between "native" American culture - meaning traditions coming from cultures that began on this continent - and "real" American culture, as something that's celebrated only in America or in a particularly American way. Something tells me that many of your vaunted "European" festivals and traditions are also "borrowed' from earlier cultures, as well.

*sigh*

I've moved this to AoDA in hopes that it'll go from blatant generalizations to something of a bit more civilized discussion. But if that doesn't happen, the first mod that sees any further flaming will close it down. It's up to you, folks.

Spliff Krieger, in the future, please avoid opening such threads.

I don't 'do' national generalizations (excepting the obvious exception of the French - slimy, back-stabbing, garlic monching, surrender monkeys). I've been to America and loved it, the people were really warm and friendly and open. I've been to plenty of countries in Europe and the people I met there were brilliant as well, if a little more... restrained (but I prefer that, I found some Americans to be a bit too in-your-face).

'I hate Americans', or,
'I love Japanese (or whatever)', I always find myself a little annoyed when I hear it (and then do exactly the same myself). It's usually tongue in cheek I guess though.

I just judge purely on the people I meet. You get pricks in any race of people, just like to you get decent folks in any race of people

[ October 22, 2005, 03:12: Message edited by: Jack Funk ]

I almost took Tal to the task and tried to post something so offensive the thread would be closed. Alas, I couldn't bring myself to do it. :)

I would classify the near total destruction of the entire native american culture by the Spanish something akin to biowarfare (albeit unintentional). The diseases spread by the conquistadors accomplished all that their guns could not. DeSoto visited tribes with populations in the thousands -- small pox wiped almost all traces of those people away.

Cortez and his men reveled in the destruction the diseases they brought caused -- it made their job much easier.

There seems to be an opinion that the US is an entity unto itself and invented such acts independantly. However, our ancestors brought such attitudes and tactics with them from the 'old country.' The greed and inhumanity that shaped much of Europe trickled into the Americas with the coming of Columbus (after all he enslaved the first people he met in the new world).

To me, Europe versus America is rather ridiculous. The majority (for a little while still) of Americans share ancestors and many traditions with Europeans.

@T2Bruno To me, Europe versus America is rather ridiculous. The majority (for a little while still) of Americans share ancestors and many traditions with Europeans. Well put.

Yeah, and if history went just a little different, you guys would all be speaking Dutch right now. How silly y'all would have looked then. :grin:

I am part Native American, so this is a bit personal to me. Despite this (and my Irish heritage) I don't hate the British. No offense, but just because someone in your distant family was 'Irish', its hardly an excuse to hate the British. Do I hate the Normans, because of my distant heritabe? Nope

Yeah, and if history went just a little different, you guys would all be speaking Dutch right now. How silly y'all would have looked then.If it weren't for us Poles, you would all be speaking Turkish or Russian now (depending at which point it wouldn't have been for us :p ). :p

If it weren't for us Poles, you would all be speaking Turkish or Russian now (depending at which point it wouldn't have been for us [Razz] ). [Razz]And if it weren't for Karl the XII screwing up, at least a third of Europe would be speaking Swedish. How's about THAT?

And if it weren't for Karl the XII screwing up, at least a third of Europe would be speaking Swedish. How's about THAT?And if it weren't for the Karlstad agreement, the Swedes would have access to massive oil reserves and wouldn't be utterly consumed with jealousy over Norway's superior quality of life.

And if Britain hadn't been full of convicts, people wouldn't have been sent to a wonderful country on the other side of the planet, away from all this tribalism and bickering! Ah, the (relative) peace and tranquility of Australasia...

No offense, but just because someone in your distant family was 'Irish', its hardly an excuse to hate the British. You need an EXCUSE, now? I'm sure us Aussies will think of something; we're good at justifying our own bigotry and racism.

What's this about being the back side of the world, Chev? I can think of much better places to hand that description to! That said, having been to both Alice Springs and Rotorua, maybe you're onto something...

(just kidding, HB!)

And on a much more light-hearted note, here's something I was sent some time ago, which shows how Europe and America are different, and which takes the piss out of everybody at the same time (it's British, btw). I know BA will like the first one...


Security Levels Raised

The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide". The only two higher levels in France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate". The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France's principal white flag manufacturing facility, effectively paralyzing their military.

It's not only the French who are on a heightened level of alert. The Italians have increased their alert level from "Shouting Loudly and Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing". Two more levels remain, "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides".

The Germans also increased their alert state, from "Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs". They have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose".

Seeing this reaction in continental Europe, the Americans have gone from "Isolationist" to "Find Somewhere Else in the Middle East Ripe for Regime Change". Their remaining, higher alert states are "Take on the World" and "Ask the British for Help".

Finally, here in GB, we've gone from "Pretend Nothing's Happening" to "Make Another Cup of Tea". Our higher levels are "Remain Resolutely Cheerful" and "Win". In parliament today, the British attitude level was raised from "Miffed" to "Peeved". Soon though, it may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross". Londoners have not been at "A Bit Cross" since the Blitz in 1940, when tea supplies all but ran out.

Terrorists have been re-categorised from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance". The last time the "A Bloody Nuisance" warning level was issued was during the Great Fire, in 1666.

I think it's the absolute limit myself. If these terrorist chaps have a grievance, why can't they just write an angry letter to the BBC?
I'm guessing Australia has gone from "She'll Be Right, Mate" to "Blame Everything On Foreigners", bypassing the "Drink More Beer" alert level entirely.

And if the Nordlanders (Vikings) had been a little more persistent we'd all be speaking a Nordlander language. :shake:

I think most Europeans would be a little miffed upon realizing just how little attention the average American gives to European culture. There just isn't a need. A comic once said, "Europe: Where the history comes from." Europe just does not send the US a significant number of immigrants or contribute a great deal to the modern American lexicon. So, *shrug*, enjoy our newlyweds...

I also think most Europeans would be surprised to learn just how racially mixed the United States truly is. For example, my multi-variate calculus class (Calc. 3) is about 1/3 black. Hispanics are now the largest racial group outside of whites, and are gaining ground quickly; they will one day be the majority and that day is not too far off. Some large universities have a significant asian majority. The notion that America is a "white" country is just plain wrong.

And yet the medias display American life as largely consisting of the actions of white people...

But hey, I guess their job is to sell products through commercials...

Actually the stupid generalizations might be exactly why this animosity persists.

Americans are portrayed as greedy, power hungry, dicks that only care about themselves, and crush anyone that gets in their way.

Europeans are portrayed as apathetic, stuck up snobs that think that they are better than everyone else.

Are these views close to what people perceive? I think so.

Are they completely :bs: ? I'd bet that they really are...

I think most Europeans would be a little miffed upon realizing just how little attention the average American gives to European culture. Why would you think so? It suits our perception of our American 'brethren'. I say it would be a pleasant - but unwelcome ;) - surprise to us were it any different. :p We have become so accustomed to our stereotypes.

What a good number of Europeans get miffed over, however, is the fact that a little too much of America is present on our turf, particularly in our media. You have it up here real quick.

And I find the conception that we are jealous of Americans hilarious. :) Whoever thinks that is flattering himself. Likewise I cannot think of a reason why the US folks should be jealous of us. How could we envy one another when we have increasingly differing aims and outlooks on things. If there are ill feelings the reasons for them are to be found elsewhere.

OK, I'm not aware of any American who is jealous of Europe. I don't know anyone who got a boob-job on their 18th birthday. In fact, I don't know anyone personally who had a boob-job done at all.

I do somewhat agree that it is inappropriate for an American to say, "I'm Irish, Italian, German, whatever" when they've never set foot in said country. The thinking there is that the culture and traditions they practice around the holidays are typically what their ancestors did. Still, having a heritage from a country does not make you from that country.

I guess as an example I could say that it is fair for my grandmother to call herself Italian. She was born there, speaks the language fluently, and has gone back to visit Italy on occassions. While I would describe myself as having an Italian heritage, I do not refer to myself as being Italian. I don't speak Italian, and have never set foot in Italy. Plus, my mother isn't Italian at all, so I'm not even genetically Italian.

There is on major event in the U.S. that is truly an American holiday, and that is coming up in about a month - Thanksgiving. I understand that Canadians also celebrate Thanksgiving (although on a seperate day as do Americans) but that still makes it an "American" holiday if we are considering the continent, and not just the country.

The problem is that the rest of the world will happily learn US culture, watch US movies etc, but the US does not seem to feel inclined to do the same. Take US cinema for example, they will not play Japanese movies, unless some arrogant director remakes it (Ring, Dark Water, The Grudge etc).

Stereotypes. We all do it to some extent. I've only been able to do a little traveling outside the USA but having had the privilege of living in New York City I've meet people from many cultures. We all want the same things. How we view others depends on our exposure and experiences.

Please remember that at some point and time the people in the USA (and the rest of the Americas ) came from somewhere else. TV and movies are primarily for entertainment and to make money for someone.

The problem is that the rest of the world will happily learn US culture, watch US movies etc, but the US does not seem to feel inclined to do the same. Take US cinema for example, they will not play Japanese movies, unless some arrogant director remakes it (Ring, Dark Water, The Grudge etc).Oh, is that the problem? Perhaps you should check the link below (which is in pdf format) which gives lists of both imported and remade Japanese films in America.

Japanese Film Industry (http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/trend/industrial/pdf/jem0505-2e.pdf)

Do you know these directors in real life, or are you simply making the "arrogant" assumption because they bought the rights to remake a Japanese film (which is more of a compliment than anything)? Have you ever heard of Godzilla, or perhaps the Pokemon phenomenon which swept the US in the past few years? You'll not commonly find an American video store without an anime section.

I also think most Europeans would be surprised to learn just how racially mixed the United States truly is.I know I was surprised by how racially homogenous (at least parts of) Belgium, France, and Holland are while I was wandering around those three nations.

OK, I'm not aware of any American who is jealous of Europe. I don't know anyone who got a boob-job on their 18th birthday. In fact, I don't know anyone personally who had a boob-job done at all.Yeah, boob jobs do sound like a hefty exaggeration, but is the picture drawn by movies and soap operas totally unbased? From all the stuff I've read, statistics, people's memories, opinions, debate voices, personal observations, it seems to me that the average young person over there has a lot more stories to tell than the average person here. Then again, I haven't heard so much from other European countries as from the US, so I can't really tell. Heck, it's probably getting even around the world, although there is that view of the US as a land of liberation not only economic or social but also moral. On the other hand, how many countries do you have that mention God on currency units and publicly in political life? It's quite complicated. From my visit to an American Catholic forum, it did look like controlling certain urges was more of a problem and challenge than in the relevant community around here, not to mention certain things which were accepted (e.g. going out with several boys and girls, treating each of them like a romantic partner, kissing and holding hands and all such), I found repulsive (and inconsistent with Catholic theology, but we aren't talking about theology here, plus it's quite possible that part of the seed of it came from Europe, anyway).

And if it weren't for Karl the XII screwing up, at least a third of Europe would be speaking Swedish. How's about THAT?We were... well, at least a faction of us was your ally back in that war. :p

The problem is that the rest of the world will happily learn US culture, watch US movies etc, but the US does not seem to feel inclined to do the same. (don't take this personally, Cuchulainn, you're not the only person to express this sentiment, merely the most recent)

I find it very interesting that Americans are being blamed for the dynamics of supply and demand. If people in other countries didn't WANT American cultural output, it wouldn't take hold there. Believe it on not, American corporations don't stay up late at night plotting ways to take over other cultures. And looking at it in reverse, should Americans feel obligated to take the cultural output of other countries simply to balance things out?

While it might be nice if things worked that way, they don't.

To set the record straight, there is ONE girl in the entire country who is going to get implants for her 18th birthday. It was actually something of a big news story that her parent (her father even) would allow it, and I have no doubt that the majority of Americans who heard about it (myself included) are shaking their heads in dismay.

Actually, it's almost the reverse of what you describe Chev, at least with boob-jobs. The far more popular surgury for women in the U.S. is the anti-boob-job, AKA breast reduction surgury. Women who are particularly well endowed sometimes get back pain from their breasts, and get them reduced. I know of no one who has got a boob-job to make their breasts larger, but I know two that have gone smaller.

So overall, I'd say yes, the image you get from TV, movies and soap operas is largely unbased. I think that's also true of the non-committed relationships as well. I've never been in one, and neither have any of my friends. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, that swingers don't exist, or anything like that, I just think that the media-portrayed image greatly exaggerates the issue.

By the way, chev, you next post will bring your total to quad-8s. Cool. :thumb:

I used to have a tax client who was a stripper. There is an actual court case that shows that breast implants are a business deduction for strippers and porn stars and not cosmetic surgery.

She may not have been the brightest bulb in the world, but she knew every aspect of tax law that affected her :)

Perceptionn is the problem I think.

No one knows enough about North-America and Europe at the same time to be able to make a meaningful comparison between them. Well, mabye not no one, but only very, very few.

Yet, there a trillions of assumptions and prejudices about. And I think it's because both, Europe and North-America, serve as a huge white canvas for eachothers people. A white canvas where people paint their fears and hopes, that serve as examples, bad and good, for ideas and concepts.

And these ideas and concepts are most of the time not at all or only remotely based on reality. That's the reason why they ring so absurd and contradict themselves.

For example:

All girls seem to want to run around half-naked. Why? It probably has to do something with the Americans... They've got Hollywood and porn!

All girls seem to want to run around half-naked. Why? It probably has to do something with the Europeans... They've got Mediterranean costs and Scandinavian TV.

And, depending on how you think about half-naked girls, you either like the continent held accountable or not. Of course, we all know that it's global warming that makes clothes rare.

Or moral decay/advancement: Look they banned/allowed homosexual intercourse, they are morally depraved/sociologically advanced enough to let it happen! Typcial Europeans/Americans.

For some, it's good to have religious symbols and acts like prayers at school. For others, it's good to have religously neutral schools. Some like countries that do that, some dislike countries that do this.

There are million of reflections and judgements that pile up to hills. And it goes both-ways. The obvious problem is that one can't think of countries as monolithic entities that happen to completly coincide with events of any sort, political, economical, sociological, religious..., war and peace...,

So, if modern surgery is advanced enough to allow breast-implants... blame mass-media for advertisment... blame other country for mass-media...

Neutrality hurts sentence-structure.

[ October 21, 2005, 20:44: Message edited by: Iago ]

[ October 22, 2005, 03:11: Message edited by: Jack Funk ]

Ok, if I read that right... What WE did to the IRA (a terrorist organization)? Righto... :nuts:

Why your families funeral arrangements have any relevance to this thread, I'm not sure, but if the IRA were present and armed with guns, I think that's more than enough reason to question ties... :geezer: .

I'm sure I don't need to remind you how many terrorist acts the IRA were responsible for... But, I suppose this is fuel for another thread.

[ October 22, 2005, 03:10: Message edited by: Jack Funk ]

An dairire ata tu?

Lets both try and keep this discussion on topic, and try not to romanticize child murderers, there is nothing cool about that.

Slán abhaile

Snook, i would hug you, if only you didn't have Redsox written all over your aura. :D

So overall, I'd say yes, the image you get from TV, movies and soap operas is largely unbased. I think that's also true of the non-committed relationships as well. I've never been in one, and neither have any of my friends. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, that swingers don't exist, or anything like that, I just think that the media-portrayed image greatly exaggerates the issue.Hmm... And I must admit I thought boob job was something along the line of blowjob or hand job. Guess I'm not familiar enough with the vocabulary. ;) Of course, any implant stereotype must be largely unfounded. As for the uncommitted relationships... who knows, maybe it's just the "hardcore" Catholics over there, then, although Mathetais said Protestants have been doing the same and he's a Calvinist pastor, so he should now. Any priest I've talked to in Poland has said that there's no way to reconcile that sort of stuff with Catholic theology. I asked two Catholic deacons from the States -- one agreed it was wrong, the other said it was perfectly acceptable and back in his homeland (Germany) it was normal too (Hey, Germans on the boards: is it normal in your country to go out with several boys or girls and treat each of them like a romantic interest, kissing and stuff until you choose just one? I believe not...). A Christian education director from some parish also thought it was normal, she had done that when she was younger and she thought it was slutty only when one guy didn't know about another but not when everyone knew of everyone. :rolleyes: Well, I guess you know why I don't post on those boards anymore. I don't want to delve into people's relations with their friends but teaching kids that focusing on one person is wrong, so they should date multiple people is so ****ing wrong...

They've got Mediterranean costs and Scandinavian TV.I know about beaches but, honestly, I haven't seen many topless women and I've been to most European countries. What's with the Scandinavian TV, though? :p

I know about beaches but, honestly, I haven't seen many topless women and I've been to almost all European countries, at least if we don't include countries East of Poland. Is that supposed to be an insult? Because we are kind proud of not being Europeans.
Karl XII learned a good lesson in Russia. Period. By the way, our score in Wars against Sweden is 5x0! :D

Europeans don't piss me off. It's the people who are running my country who piss me off. Today I saw some TV coverage from New Orleans/Katrina--like ancient Greek in our Has-It-Happened-Yet World--a soldier kicking in the door of somebody's home, automatic weapon at the ready, yelling for the homeowner to come out, ready to blow him or her away if they didn't come out. Other residents kneeling handcuffed in the street, guns pointed at them, because they had refused to leave their homes. This was not a looting affair; this was how the forced evacuation was carried out. Truly shocking stuff; Nazi-KGB stuff. They were later released, since they had done nothing illegal, but it shows how far our reality has fallen from our professions...

The soldiers, and their officers, should be court-martialed for abusing citizens; the cops should be sacked. Of course this will not be done. No doubt many of our resident neo-cons will hasten to point out that it was a disaster; how can you tell who your friends are? If you should ever be unlucky enough to be caught up in such an event, it will make a fine argument when the gun is at the nape of your neck.

[ October 22, 2005, 06:24: Message edited by: Cernak ]

The topic is Europeans' feelings towards Americans and vice-versa. It isn't Americans' feelings about their governments, English/Irish disputes, American neo-cons, George Bush, or the IRA.

This thread actually has the potential to be fairly interesting, as it gives everyone an actual chance to raise and explain some fairly broad generalizations, but if it devolves into some of the issues listed above -- well, we've got threads for most of them already.

Thank you very much (said, in my mind, with an Andy Kaufman/Taxi voice).

Jack Funk

You probably have your own reasons why you deleted all your posts from this thread, but i don't really see why.

I've read everything you said inhere, and it were all intelligent non offensive posts. You made your point, and you made it clear, so why on earth would you delete the things you said ?

If you're pissed, i can relate to your motives, really, but taking away your replies isn't the right way to deal with this. You kinda crippled the thread now, don't you see ?

Speaking as an American, there is a huge hairy elephant in the room...

Are European woman really as unshaven as my ignorant imagination would have me believe? I'm picturing armpit hair matted down from underarm sweat, legs with peach fuzz at the top and courseness at the bottom, and a bush in the twain that is just like *KA-POW!* :eek:

Seriously, what is the deal? :hmm:

Let me assure you, European women are as tidy as they come.
All the women I know make sure to have a nice shaven haven.
There is NO bigger turn-off than a woman with excess body hair... bleurgh.

Jack Funk will be asked to stay out of AoDA and AoLS until he learns that crippling threads by blanking his own replies is not how a mature person deals with any issues that come up in a debate. We don't allow people to delete their own posts exactly so that things like this wouldn't happen.

Well Barmy, that is a relief...

Sorry, dmc; I did wander off there more than a bit.

"Speaking of unshaven women...", said the Baron, toying with his aperitif...

This is an open-ended question to any European: Have you ever discussed WW2 with your grandfather or grandmother? What did they have to say?

As an American, it is hard to learn what it was really like back then because it is difficult to see past the glow of the "charge!" trumpets...

Does an eighty year old Polish man feel he did wrong by turning in his Jewish neighbor? Does a German great-grandmother feel her husband died for a good cause?

Is this a topic that is just not discussed?

Speaking as an Englishman, a lot of our WW2 was spent defending our shores from invading Lufftwaffe. Most old 'veterans' speak of the dread of the next bombs falling on their town and the super-fast mobilization of the RAF in response.
Sometimes our 'liberation' of France then swift 'tactical evacuation' of our troops when we got a licking. Then the Japos did us a massive favour and bombed Pearl Harbour (cheers Japos) and so the Yank joined in (better late than ever, eh Sammy?). The Allied assault on Normandy beaches etc. is not talked about that much in comparison to the other stuff before. Possibly because it didn't 'directly' effect lifes in Britain - obviously it effected them, but not in a tape-up-your-windows-and-watch-for-the-bombs kind of way.

LNT, I know I'm not European but in my younger years I knew a woman from France who had to have a freezer stuffed with food because of the starvation she had suffered. She didn't talk about the war though. Nor did she over eat. Just had to know the food was there.

Does an eighty year old Polish man feel he did wrong by turning in his Jewish neighbor?What's next? "Polish concentration camps?" As in every nation, there were heroes and villains. Probably less villains than in some other nations, I would say. You could probably find a couple of people who turned in a Jewish neighbour, but how many died for helping Jews? If you're putting Poles next to Germans like that, you've got your sides mixed. I really suggest reading up on the Vichy government, Quisling's government, Hacha, Tiso and a couple of other people. I wonder what kind of history books you read.

An eighty year old Polish person probably feels bad about having been sold by the US and UK to Stalin and his red hordes in Yalta, especially after being the beating boy and doing dirty job (such as Monte Cassino or Arnhem, not to mention the airmen in the Battle of England) on all European, Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern fronts. Alternatively, being betrayed by the Allies after struggling with the Nazi for life and a scrap of freedom in the occupied Poland, risking his life to help his Jewish neighbours. Definitely feels bad about "Polish concentration camps" and being mentioned next to Nazis or put on the same side with Germans.

My grandfathers haven't talked much about WW2, just few words about the starvation, the black market, the fear of the bombings in the early days of the war and the fear they felt every time they met an enemy patrol. The only thing that has been mentioned and doesn't fit in the above category is the fate of the italian garisson in Corfu after Italy's surrender.

Now speaking about Greece in general, the taboo issues about WW2 is collaboration and the civil war between communist and nationalist guerillas, which was taking place the same time. As far as I remember in the school history books, there isn't a single paragraph for things like the security battalions (units which were supposed to be under the orders of the german controled greek administration for police duties, but mainly served as anti-guerilla units under german command)or formations of volunteers like the Poulos Verband, who wore the Wehrmacht uniform and served as anti-partisan units in the entire balkan area.

N.Ireland seems to be written out of both World Wars, but we were especially important during the 'Battle of the Somme'.

Unfortunately the Republic of Ireland stayed neutral which helped the Nazis. Its also interesting to note that the war vetrans from the Republic side (many believed in the cause and joined the British side) were looked down upon by their government, and never received a war pension.

But hadly anyone talks about their experiences. We are a positive people that look to the future, not dwell in the past.

WWII and all that stuff. I nearly appreciate that sensitivity hidden in a sarcastic shell. Must be big city mentality. That's probably the biggest of all sources from which divisions on world views stem and end up being so completely different.

So different, it sometimes makes conversation nearly impossible, because the levels of knowledge of facts and events and theories to explain them are by no means evenly distributed.

I think it's fair to say, Europeans in average have spent a lot of time with the history from 1789-now. There is an huge amount, an enormous amount of history in books, history or fiction-wise, tv-series, tv-documentations... In-depth knowledge about everything connected... There is more than one can possibly swallow in one single life.

And it may be even said, that simplistic black and white painting out of ignorance with an patronizing undertone can come over as extremely arrogant, presumptuous, stupid and offensive. Et voilà, just a another source for stereotypes... but I am not that arrogant!

My Grandma was a refugee. So food was something that had to be eaten and there were no left-overs allowed.


I know about beaches but, honestly, I haven't seen many topless women and I've been to most European countries. What's with the Scandinavian TV, though? I mainly used them as a general example for an hyperbole argument. But I'll PM you the details.

Does an eighty year old Polish man feel he did wrong by turning in his Jewish neighbor? That is the biggest piece of crap from this thread! Always the same anti-semitic BS!
Instead of slandering the Polacks, maybe we should focus on the great "help" the allies - mostly England who was supposed to help - them during the Warsaw Uprising. Or as Chevalier mentioned, giving Poland on a plate to the commies after the War.
Just because the half zhid president of Poland apologised "in the name of Poland" - curiously enough, he was bashed by 80% of the population - for only he knows what crimes Polacks committed against zhids, it does not make it the least true.
Some people have a nerve!

Britain joined the out of the goodness of our heart, we could have just left the rest of Europe to their fate! Nevermind taking digs at out help, how's abotu showing gratitude. Us and the Yanks won that war.

Plus, our intervention cost the lives of many British citizens and tied up nearly the entire Lufftwaffe.

Britain joined the out of the goodness of our heart, we could have just left the rest of Europe to their fate! Nevermind taking digs at out help, how's abotu showing gratitude. Us and the Yanks won that war. LOL! Sure. I could not expect any less from megalomaniacs! England did absolutely nothing - sorry, I can only remember the pitifull Dunkerk "retreat", which was SO shameful, Haha. The Americans joined the fight against the germans when we had crushed them already. They did beat the Japs though, but that was a minor task.
Well, before you chose to reply something refuting my claim, let me put an end to the discussion by saying that till the "D Day" we Eastern Slavs were responsable for 90% of german losses. Facts speak louder than whatever prettentious rhetoric you might come up with. These numbers say it all, end of story.

Hm. Could we settle for the time being on the assumption that the war was one by those that were the last ones standing, i.e. Russia, Latin-America, Australia and North-America ?

No, because Latin American did **** in the War. :D

LOL! Sure. I could not expect any less from megalomaniacs! England did absolutely nothing - sorry, I can only remember the pitifull Dunkerk "retreat", which was SO shameful, Haha. The Americans joined the fight against the germans when we had crushed them already. They did beat the Japs though, but that was a minor task.
Well, before you chose to reply something refuting my claim, let me put an end to the discussion by saying that till the "D Day" we Eastern Slavs were responsable for 90% of german losses. Facts speak louder than whatever prettentious rhetoric you might come up with. These numbers say it all, end of story. You're an idiot. You honestly believe that the war would have been won without our help?

Whatever, I'll leave you with it you one-eyed fool.

No, because Latin American did **** in the War. They declared war... and they stood at the end, which the most important detail: To be still standing...

The point I tried to make was... We should wait another 200 years until a history book is able to tell us who one. Or someone should open a new topic and we find out what we could know until know, considering the who won and who didn't.

Conversley, I say, is it not obvious who won? The Germans, Italians and the Japanese. Whatever they could hope to win in those wars came true for them. After the war, British, Dutch and French colonies were open to them. In this war, the Germans, Italian and the Japanese were the ones that got what they wanted. Maybe not a mare nostrum, but some parts of the mare at least.

You're an idiot. You honestly believe that the war would have been won without our help?

Whatever, I'll leave you with it you one-eyed fool. Yes, I am an idiot because I hurt your unlimited English pride.
You might offend me all you want, I am sure the fact you did bollocks in the War hurts much more than your petty insults anyway,

Iago,

Come on, you know this is a sophism. :) Ok, War was declared, but the fact the Axis could not bother to invade South America - and thus they withstood till the very end - makes them winners? I dont think so. Plus, as far as I am concerned, only a few South American countries entered in the War, like Brazil.
I was talking about contributing to german defeat...

You give attitude out, you have to expect it back. If you're alright with me, I'll be spot on with you, you act the **** giving it the big one with the attitude then you will get attitude back.

Who actually CARES who did what in the War? It was won, that's all there is to it. Britain protected itself from an air-force much larger than out own, and helped to liberate France and other European countries. There is no way the war could have been won without British and American help, that's the end of it.

Now I suggest you read a book called 'How to Make Friends and Influence People' :lol: .

You give attitude out, you have to expect it back. If you're alright with me, I'll be spot on with you, you act the **** giving it the big one with the attitude then you will get attitude back. You got me wrong. I dont feel offended by being called an idiot. As far as I care, you might give whatever attitude you fing appropriate.


Who actually CARES who did what in the War? It was won, that's all there is to it. Britain protected itself from an air-force much larger than out own, and helped to liberate France and other European countries. There is no way the war could have been won without British and American help, that's the end of it. Yes, the War would be won anyway. The Americans did help, but I am afraid the English only posed.

Now I suggest you read a book called 'How to Make Friends and Influence People' [laughing out loud] . Why? Do you need it? ;) I certainly dont. Actually, I abhor self help books.

You got me wrong. I dont feel offended by being called an idiot. As far as I care, you might give whatever attitude you fing appropriate. You what?

Yes, the War would be won anyway. The Americans did help, but I am afraid the English only posed. That is incredibly disrespectful to the 60,000+ British army casualties and their families. Not to mention those that innocents who died in the air raids :rolleyes: .

Why? Do you need it? [Wink] I certainly dont. Actually, I abhor self help books. You've got a screw loose you have mate :lol: .

Oh, come on. British, as well as US and Soviets all had a great role in winning the war. Is worth to remember that the Brits stood alone against Hitler for a year or so (untill Germany attacked Russia). If the English would have folded, I doubt the US would have gotten into war (in Europe, at least). As about the Soviets... of course, they bore the brunt of the fighting on land, but one should not forget the enormous materiel support they got from the Western powers. I read somewhere that 90% of Red Army trucks were american made.

You what? I am not offended.

That is incredibly disrespectful to the 60,000+ British army casualties and their families. Not to mention those that innocents who died in the air raids [Roll Eyes] .
Sorry, but it is an offense bringing up this number in face of 3 million dead Polish, almost 2 millions Jugoslavians and 27 millions Eastern Slavs - mostly civilians.
Was that supposed to be a joke?

You've got a screw loose you have mate [laughing out loud] . Wait, it is you who needs self help books, not me. :D

Well Barmy, I am sure the British forces did this out of the goodness of their hearts, but I think the government had other ideas.

By June 1944, Jewish groups were imploring both US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and UK Prime Minister Winston Churchill to bomb the rail lines or the gas chambers in order to put a stop to the killing. Proposals to drop weapons into the camp to enable a rebellion were briefly considered but abandoned. Recently published reconnaissance images show the British photographed the camp from the air in August that year - suggesting that by 1944 the RAF had the capability to reach Auschwitz with bombers. taken from (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4175045.stm)

And WW III begins on SP.

Which part of Tal's warning was not understood? All of you were warned that flaming would lead to this thread being closed. Some of you have been here long enough to know the rules, yet they are being blantantly ignored. All of you know the rules by now. Please follow them.

The war could not be won without UK: If UK had fallen, the germans could bring more forces to the eastern front (from ground troops to the squadrons, which were used for Germany's air defense), the german industrial activity would never face problems from the bombings, the americans would not have a base for their operations and the invasion of western europe could never take place.

The war could not be won without Soviet Union: The german army took the vast majority of its casualties in both men and equipment in the Eastern front and the soviet tanks were the only ones, which could face the german zoo.If Soviet Union had fallen, the western allies would have to face all the german army and not the reserve troops they faced during the first days of Operation Overlord, they would never achieve the critical total air superiority and Hitler would have a vast pool of resources.

The world could not be won without US: Without the american help and supplies UK would have to surrender due to starvation and lack of resources, without the american industry the allies would not have enough equipment to replace their losses and without the american army the opening of western front, for which Stalin was begging after the battle of Kurk could never happen.

I hope that the above will make all of you happy.

I hope that the above will make all of you happy. No! We won the War alone! LOL!

The Polish example was just that, an example. Sorry to offend. I easily could have picked a large number of nationalities that participated in the Holocaust.

And that really is the point. What do your living grandparents have to say about their actions during that time? Do they ever talk about it?

I have heard from American friends, whom I am sure have no more experience in these matters than I do, but regardless, they have said that history books in Europe seem to skip the years of 1935 to about 1945. My buddy made me smirk when he said in a blatantly awful German accent, "1938?...No, vee vere making pretzels then; I don'tz know vhat of you speak."

So I am just curious if that sort of purported white washing is really how the war is handled.

If anyone wants to discuss WW2, open a new thread about it, I'm closing this one, since it's obviously gone way off topic. If a new thread is opened, we'll actually be enforcing the rules there, so anyone starting with insults there again will be asked to stay out of AoDA and AoLS for a while. If you're a repeat offender, possibly for good. You know who you are.