After reading the "Life" -thread I felt the subject of depression could use some more discussion. First off I'll state that I have suffered from clinical depression for about ten years, but am feeling somewhat better now, although not completely "fixed." And it wasn't divine intervention; it was taking some time off, a bit of therapy, artistic self expression, and yes, mild medication.

Some stated previously that commiting suicide is a sign of stupidity and weakness. I disagree completely. I've heard from people who have attempted suicide that it takes tremendous resolve and strength. It is the ultimate, final act, and not done for light reasons. And back when my depression was at its worst, what kept me from killing myself was the lack of such resolve - I was too weak to attempt it. If I had been stronger and taken that step, I would not be alive today.

Speaking medically, depression is the mind's way of protecting itself from even more severe trauma. Indifference, passiveness and low spirits allow the mind to deflect further blows. It is only when this becomes a permanent state that it starts causing problems, suicidal thoughts and so on.

I've read about new scientific findings that suggest that a tendency towards depression can be in the genes. To some this may seem like a perfect excuse to wallow in self pity; to me the prospect of suffering from this condition permanently and possibly passing it on is frightening.

Any thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated, and I don't mind a bit of flaming. It's the mods you need to worry about. So if you can keep it civil, more the better.

I've read about new scientific findings that suggest that a tendency towards depression can be in the genes. To some this may seem like a perfect excuse to wallow in self pity; to me the prospect of suffering from this condition permanently and possibly passing it on is frightening. You are quite correct in what you read. My family (on my mother's side) has a genetic history of dysthymia, which is a constant low-grade depression. I suffered through that for the first 19 years of my life before I was finally diagnosed, despite the continuous objections of my mother that I probably had what she did. Everything looks worse through those dark shades, and there's nothing you can do about it because you don't know anything's wrong; it's just how you've felt for all of your life.

I too would have committed suicide a long time ago if it hadn't taken such effort; I was simply resigned to die whenever my time came.

To (finally) address some points made in the other thread:
It is not simply "mind against matter" because what you are trying to fight is your own mind. And what, I ask, can you fight your own mind with? (Of course, you could go "matter against mind", but that would likely involve a lobotomy. :heh: ) Placebos work because an outside source gives them cause to hope, without that they can't just spontaneously "be better". Depressives are weak: true but misstated and misunderstood. Depression makes you weak both physically and spiritually, no matter how strong you would ordinarily be. Even the strongest personalities can be brought low by depression. Suicide is for the cowardly and the weak: overly simplified. Suicide is for people who are scared of continuing to be weak(/depressed). If you want to call being scared cowardly, then I've got some poisonous animals to introduce you to. :happy: Fear of danger (including danger to the psyche) is a natural response.

I also have an history of depression. I was lucky, though. Mine was not that heavy, and when I first really considered suicide - even if it was only for an instant, I started psychotherapy. But it took very long to reach this point. I wasted several years of my life.

Although my there were a few depressed people in my famliy tree, I don't think my case was caused by genes.
I suffer from sociophobie. (I don't know the english spelling.) I am afraid of social contact. And my depressions stemmed form that.
Sadly, I was raised the way that I never should disturb people - simply spoken. I took that advice to heart. Too much.

Well, I'm better now. But I still have problems with people.

On suicide I'll have to agree with Felinoid. There may be various states of mind in which people attempt suicide, ranging from debilitating fear or another pathological condition removing the ability to make reasonable decisions to a conscious choice.

In most cases it comes down to the prospect of immediate future being unbearable. Here we have a range of motives from more or less cool assessment to an act of despair. What we can't deny is the essence of such motives.

The fact that it does take strength and resolve to finalise the act doesn't mean that the whole of it relies on strength and resolve. This, however, might be true for a person who had lost all hope and only saw endless miserable fate ahead, deciding interrupt it and kill himself rather than play along. It does require courage but I'm not sure if the decision to carry on (rather than shy away from suicide and wishing one had the strength) doesn't actually require more courage, more resolve.

As for depression itself, I can't speak from first-hand experience or rather don't know if I can. I've always tried to intepret even lasting, continuous lows rationally, as a natural response of the mind and body to certain conditions which is going to change when said conditions do. I think there's more to depression than self-pity and, from what I know, there are somatic or external physical factors which may cause depression (example: in some people, lack of sunlight in Autumn or Winter may cause symptoms of light depression).

Even if we deal with just the psychological factors, we don't always and never fully know what the person has been through. While it's correct that what's more for one person is less for another and that people's sensitivities differ (e.g. one person feels low because of low light or cold temperature and thinks it's ridiculous to feel low because of poor results at work, another feels depressed because of problems at work but think it's ridiculous to react similarly to atmospheric conditions), it's also true that some of the peeople suffering from depression have been through a lot. We can't really tell unless we are professionals and even for those it's not an easy nut to crack. Some people definitely need to stop whining and get a grip of themselves but this definitely isn't all. I suppose both factors are combined in some cases: clinical depression and self-pity. But even the latter still means the person has a problem and needs help. After all, people don't normally do that. I think the whiny brat scenario is very rare in reality... it's hard for me to imagine a person acting depressed and not having any real problem. It's already a problem when people invent or exaggerate problems, just a different one from what they invent or exaggerate. Not to say that a kick in the butt isn't enough of a motivator sometimes, but it isn't so simple. Not even with people who clearly exaggerate (if they exaggerate small problems, they probably have a bigger one in a different area). I'm not an expert but that's just how it seems to me.

My depression stems from pregnancy and childbirth. I had a bit of a temper before I got pregnant; nothing unusual since Mom and Sis did the same stuff - dish breaking is a common occurance.

After I had my daughter, things were okay until I decided to get back on The Pill. I went bonkers. I cried at every little thing and argued with my ex constantly. Mom said I probably has post-partum depression, which I wasn't arguing or agreeing with. I stopped taking The Pill and, lo and behold, I wasn't acting like a b*tch from hell! Too late to fix anything, since I'd been soaking my system with 4X my normal estrogen levels for six months.

My relationship with my ex went into the toilet. I sought counseling and eventually came to the conclusion that whatever happened in my life was *my fault*. I started doing a lot of thinking while at work as a dishwasher. That little voice in my head that typically reminds me how much of a sh*t I am, did that school kid act of :cough: :bs: :cough:. How could it be my fault that our relationship hit the skids? It takes 2 to tango, I said to myself. At the next couseling session, I shut down and basically ignored what the couselor was telling me.

Of course, now it's time for those anti-depressants. Enter Prozac. :rolleyes: It worked quite well at cutting down on my depressive tendencies. It also made any emotional response on my part more severe. I couldn't emote at all without listening to Mom reminding me to take a pill. The other side affect was my lack of sleep. The day I decided an hour of sleep was good and playing solitaire from midnight to five in the morning was the day I quit taking the damn things.

A few years later, when the dust had settled on my ex and the custody fight for my daughter, I felt better. The medication was out of my system. I dealt with stress by smoking and writing short stories. I decided what the doctors told me was total horse puckey and there was no way I would ever take pills for something easily fixed by stomping on a few dishes in the privacy of my home.

Suicide. Oh yeah, I think about on a daily basis. During the last 3 years with my ex (custody and court), I wasn't the safest person to be around. I never did anything untoward to get me locked away, but I gave serious thought when I drove my car about just going straight through the guardrail instead of taking the curve today. Utensils were another hazard - I plotted killing myself with anything and everything that popped into my hands.

Now, I don't drive because I'm blind peripherally and I don't smoke (though I will take a drag if offered ;) ). I think about just walking until my body fails. Another idea is to bundle up, sit outside on the back porch and let the weather have its way with me.

Mostly, I want to get the emotions out of me. I want a physical manifestation of the pain, hurt, self-loathing and anger boiling up inside myself. I find myself thinking some of the Indian tribes have the right idea.

I haven't 'succeeded' in a suicide attempt because I'm too logical. I put too much thought into how to kill myself *and* what happens after I die. I can't do it in the bedroom; blood stains are a pain to soak out of cotton. Well, move to the bathroom where the linoleum can be mopped. No, no good here. I'll pass out between the tub and the sink and the ambulance attendants will have a rough time hauling my carcass out. Alright, get in the tub and lay down. No. No one would find me for a couple days - who looks in the shower when you don't need to? Of course, I think about my daughter and husband and how they would react. I don't want either of them to feel I offed myself because of them.

*Sigh* I think a line from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer says it best:

"The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it."

My wife went through a bout with depression this summer. We're still recovering from it. She took some medication for one night, but had an averse reaction to it, so decided just to go with therapy.

It's a long, long, road.

Let me point something out here, which is rule # 13:

(13) No inappropriate*/obscene/adult material. Please do not post or link to any inappropriate, obscene, adult or sexually-oriented material, be it stories, pictures, sounds, animations, games, etc. SP is a family-friendly website and as such we make every effort that the majority of the content is suitable for everyone.
*[A couple of examples of inappropriate material would be any discussions or stories on the topic of suicide, or posts where too much personal information about any of our members is revealed. We feel that it is in the best interest of all our members that we discourage posts with such content.]


When discussing depression in this thread, it is really easy to run afoul of the suicide issue, for example. Please keep this in mind when posting.

You make good points, Susipaisti and Big Cat. I agree with you two.

As for me, just so you kow, I had a manic depression, which I have cured without any medication. I decided to place my faith in my own strenght rather than pills. It was not a piece of cake, however. It was difficult beyond words. The hardest part was the constant mood swings - hyper, then downer. The two years I struggled with this manic depression were probably the hardest in my life. Where did I found the strength to climb out of it, I still don't know... but I managed to pull it off, nontheless.

The price to pay was high, however. I had lost many friends along the way, and it plainly destroyed my relationship with my ex. But I have survived.

since it seems my opinion is not wanted here, I wont touch this topic with a 10 foot pole.

good day to all and I hope we can discuss topics of a lighter well...ummm....light...in the future.

I just hate it when people take the "that's just weakness" -attitude towards depression. Maybe some people can benefit from a good kick in the rear, but I think it should be kept in mind that it might have the exact opposite result. If you keep telling someone their problems are nothing to cry about, to just get a hold of themselves and move on, even telling them they are weak, instead of "snapping out of it" they might snap in a completely different manner and do something rash. It's not beneficial to anyone to just judge instead of trying to help.

My medication hasn't been Prozac - I've heard nothing but bad things about that particular drug, and I don't think it even gets prescribed much where I come from.

:yot: since it seems my opinion is not wanted here, I wont touch this topic with a 10 foot pole Er, you just did :lol:

The medication I was prescribed - but never took - was named Celexa, I believe. I probably still have my prescription somewhere around.

I just hate it when people take the "that's just weakness" -attitude towards depression. hey, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that you guys were missinterpreting tipperon's and tarnished heat's points (in the other thread). It seems to me like their point wasn't that depression is indictive of weakness. Their point was that it is a weakness when people complain about how depressed they are but don't make any effort on their own to do something about it. They were never implying that people like Disciple of the watch were weak. What i thought they were saying is that it is hard to feel sympathy towards someone with an extremely apathetic attitude towards Depression. Not clinical depression, but the kind that 'ordinary' people get when they are going through a rough time or whatever. In which case i agree-- I find it somewhat annoying when people wallow in their own misery, and make no attempt at getting better. It's almost like they're feeding off of being depressed/unhappy (and the attention that comes along with it)- i know it's true because i've seen myself doing it at times.
Note: again i'm not refering to medical depression, just 'ordinary' depression.

Ok, there's my 2 cents on the subject. please don't flame me for too long...

[ November 06, 2005, 02:11: Message edited by: Phone_Tools ]

ok, totally breaking what I said about not posting here.

and THANK YOU Phone_Tools, you seem to be the only one who understood. I was not refering to depressed people as weak in general.

hey, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that you guys were missinterpreting tipperon's and tarnished heat's points (in the other thread). It seems to me like their point wasn't that depression is indictive of weakness. I don't think that was the issue. It was tipperons obvious contempt directed at depressive people. And the absolut arrogant attitude that it is so easy to do something against it. If he was a depressive person he would know that it's really hard to overcome it.

Not clinical depression, but the kind that 'ordinary' people get when they are going through a rough time or whatever. In which case i agree-- I find it somewhat annoying when people wallow in their own misery, and make no attempt at getting better.There's the problem: How do you (or tipperon) know the difference? Are you a professional?

As long as tipperon's going to express his opinion he is prone to insult every depressive person there is.

By the way: there may be a difference between a genetically spawned depression and a depression out of "bad luck". But they are both sicknesses.

whoa Fabius, calm down.

There's the problem: How do you (or tipperon) know the difference? Are you a professional?
are you a professional? :rolleyes:

As long as tipperon's going to express his opinion he is prone to insult every depressive person there is. That was unresonalble and rash. If you're gonna try and make a point at least try to not insult me directly. Im not trying to start a bashfest with some person who cant bear to allow my opinion a chance.

I don't think that was the issue. It was tipperons obvious contempt directed at depressive people. And the absolut arrogant attitude that it is so easy to do something against it. If he was a depressive person he would know that it's really hard to overcome it. Ok, the thing you have to understand is that everyone becomes depressed at some time or another in their life. It's part of being human, it happens. While some people (not counting those who are clinically depressed) are more prone to depression than others, everyone experiences it to some degree. I am a person who can get depressed easily and 'wallow' in it. And i totally think the fact that i'm prone to dwell on my depression like that is indictivice of weakness on my part. I strongly believe that it's not about what happens to you, its about how you respond to what happens to you. It's the ability to learn, change, grow, and become a better person from your (bad) experiences that shows your real strength... conversely, the inability to do so and to choose to not make any effort to learn is a weakness. It is NOT easy to be able to do this, in fact i would guess that it's something that few people can do.
After all, being depressed just a state of mind, it inevitably happens to everyone and you just have to deal with it the best that you can. But I believe that it is a choice whether to deal with it in a good or bad way. It is obvious that it is in human nature to want to be self-absorbed in your own misery-- but i think that if we could all admit that this is a flaw, a weakness in human nature, that we will all become better people because we will be able to consciencly able to recognize it and rise above it, and perhaps even gain some real strength of character from it.

I understand depression more than anybody. I'm an England football fan.

lol Barmy :D

I've heard from people who have attempted suicide that it takes tremendous resolve and strength. I'm sure it does. But when people say that "commiting suicide is a sign of stupidity and weakness" (in my case at least) they refer to the fact that the person feels he can no longer face whatever it is has driven him to that point and would rather take his own life. that's where the cowardice comes in. but yes, i agree that the actual taking of your own life would require enormous willpower and resolve.

I understand depression more than anybody. I'm an England football fan.What shall I say, then? ;)


It's part of being human, it happens. While some people (not counting those who are clinically depressed) are more prone to depression than others, everyone experiences it to some degree. I am a person who can get depressed easily and 'wallow' in it.But the issue is not being depressed as in 'being down'. This is just another term for being sad, lonely, in a bad mood, etc. Everyone gets that. Most people snap out of it quickly.

If you like to wallow in it, you may have stepped over the line into real depression already. You may be sick.

And that's the point: Compairing 'being down' with depression in terms of 'getting out of it' is just wrong. Doing so and saying it would be easy to get over a depression is arrogant and also wrong.

Depressive people are weak. It is one symptom of the sickness, like wallowing in self-pity.

If you, tipperon, say it's not that hard to get over it and depressive people should stop whining, then I feel insulted because it's not.
It is hard. You have to fight with yourself, and that is the toughest fight there is because the enemy knows you so well.

Get your definitions straight or stop talking.

[ November 06, 2005, 16:39: Message edited by: Fabius Maximus ]

But when people say that "commiting suicide is a sign of stupidity and weakness" (in my case at least) they refer to the fact that the person feels he can no longer face whatever it is has driven him to that point and would rather take his own life. that's where the cowardice comes in.Not taking the suicide option doesn't always mean facing the problems. When suffering from extreme depression, the easiest path is just letting things remain as they are - doing nothing. One could say that's a form of cowardice as well.

There's the problem: How do you (or tipperon) know the difference? Are you a professional?are you a professional?I don't think it necessarily takes a professional, really. If you've been there, or know someone closely who has been there, you know the difference.

But the issue is not being depressed as in 'being down'. This is just another term for being sad, lonely, in a bad mood, etc. Everyone gets that. Most people snap out of it quickly.
...
Compairing 'being down' with depression in terms of 'getting out of it' is just wrong. Doing so and saying it would be easy to get over a depression is arrogant and also wrong.Exactly. A lot of people have trouble grasping the difference between the two concepts. Almot every time I've told someone I have depression, their first question is "Why?" And then I'm tempted to say something like, "Well my hamster just died", because that's probably the kind of answer they expect.

Everyone feels sad or down sometimes, absolutely. But it's different when it becomes a perpetual, permanent state of mind with no way to escape it. I hate my depression so much I almost have it personified in my mind, like it's an entity of its own, that I have to fight with. I don't crave for attention, I don't *like* being depressed, and I fight it, I want to get rid of it. And to some extent, I've succeeded - it doesn't control me the way it used to. But it's not over yet, and I have a feeling it never will be completely over.

Like was mentioned in the Life thread, depression has become fashionable in a way. I think people get diagnosed pretty lightly these days. There probably are a lot of people out there popping pills when they wouldn't really need to. But this doesn't change the fact that some people really *are* seriously depressed, to the extent that they become incapable of doing anything at all. Telling those people to just "snap out of it" isn't going to work.

Very good point, Susipaisti.

And you are right about a depression never really being over - it has been one year since my manic "ended", and I still feel remnants of it.

It must be said however, that pulling through without medication is quite a feat especially in today's world. I think it's pretty admirable.

I tried, for quite a while, but after I started going to therapy, from time to time they recommended meds to compliment the therapy. After refusing a few times I finally thought "What the hell." The first type of pill didn't do much of anything at all, the second had side effects, but the third has been okay.

A buddy of mine suggested it was a placebo effect, but I don't think so, since I was pretty skeptical about the meds even after I started taking them.

One important thing I think is that no one should rely on meds alone. Therapy comes first, and medication should only compliment the therapy, if used at all. And therapy can have many different forms, it doesn't have to be lying on the couch while a guy who looks like Freud scribbles notes. What worked for me was music therapy.

Again, I have to agree with you, Susipaisti.

With the appropriate therapy, and tapping in inner strength, it's very possible to get through.

I personally don't believe that medication can do miracles - but it *can* have it's uses, therefore I will call it a necessary evil.

As you say, Susipaisti, therapy can take many forms. Add the proper therapy to the inner strength of a human being and you've got a pretty strong combination to face depression. Speaking of personal experience, it's a long and chaotic road, it is worth it in the end. These two years were the toughest of my life, but I have survived. And without medication. My own therapy was solitude.

Not taking the suicide option doesn't always mean facing the problems. When suffering from extreme depression, the easiest path is just letting things remain as they are - doing nothing. One could say that's a form of cowardice as well. That's also very true, but it doesn't change the fact that suicide is also a form of cowardice. err, you know what i mean? sorry, the sentence just sounds kinda redundant :rolleyes: forgive me, I've just had a midterm :/

No one said that everyone has to be brave...

Depression isn't just sadness or apathy or whatever you want to call it.

I was diagnosed with a mild personality disorder when I was younger that caused depression. However, I ended up with a very violent man who had me too scared to tell people about the abuse I was going through. The frustration from this caused my depression to turn to violence.
It was still classed and treated as depression though...very odd