Following Beren's hint, I'm starting the next thread.

quote:
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He proposed an alternative to Jesus's plan
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Actually, an alternative plan for the salvation of mankind wasn't made until it was clear that an alternative plan for salvation would be needed. Satan was auspiciously around prior to the first covenant. I'd also like to point out that Satan doesn't really get a lot of mention in the bible. There are absolutely no scriptural references to Lucifer falling because he was jealous of the new covenant that Christ would create with man. In fact, there are no scriptural references to the fall of Lucifer at all. Actually this is wrong. Isaiah 14: 12-15 gives such a reference.

12: How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15: Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.This clearly states that Lucifer was cast down for excessive ambition.

And at what point in the timeline did this happen?

Actually, according to the commentary in my Bible, that passage isn't referring to Satan but to a figure of Canaanite mythology that is comparable to Icarus. Yes, the theme of excessive ambition earning a smackdown is still there, but it has nothing to do with Satan. The name "Lucifer" doesn't appear in the passage as I have it.

Xtianity, eh?

I don't feel like arguing tonight, but I have Wicca (pagan) ancestors and Xtians are our sworn enemies. Yes, I am neo-wicca. (Or, neo-pagan)

It was Xtianity who forcefully "converted" Wiccas to the Xtian faith.

What's more, those ******* Xtians even had the nerve to build a church on a Wicca holy site.

I have a bone to pick with Xtians, alright.

That's like Christians having a grudge against Italy because the Romans outlawed them, or The English having a grudge against Germany because they were invaded by the Saxons hundreds of years ago.

It's utterly pointless to have a chip on your choulder because of what a group of people did hindreds of years ago.

Didn't Gerald Gardner rip off Alistair Crowley and Celtic literature?

Besides it was the Druids that eventually spread Christianity through Ireland.

Back on topic - a Yazdânism take on 'Satan':

In the Yazidi worldview, God created the world, which is now in the care of a Heptad of seven Holy Beings, often known as Angels or heft sirr (the Seven Mysteries). Pre-eminent among these is Malak Ta’us (Tawûsê Melek in Kurdish), the Peacock Angel, who is equated with Satan or Devil by some Muslims and Christians. "The reason for the Yazidis reputation of being devil worshipers, is connected to the other name of Malak Ta'us, Shaytan, the same name as the Koran's for Satan."[2] However, according to the Kurdish linguist Jamal Nebez, the word Taus is most probably derived from the Greek and is related to the words Zeus and Theos, alluding to the meaning of God. Accordingly, Malak Ta'us is God's Angel, and this is how Yezidis themselves see Malak Ta'us or Taus-e-Malak ([3], page 21).

Yazidis believe that Malak Ta’us is not a source of evil or wickedness. They consider him as the leader of the archangels, not a fallen angel. Also they say that the source of evil is in the heart and spirit of humans themselves, not in Malak Ta’us. The active forces in their religion are Malak Ta’us and Sheik Adii. The Kitêba Cilwe (Book of Illumination) which claims to be the words of Malak Ta’us, and which presumably represents Yazidi belief, states that he allocates responsibilities, blessings and misfortunes as he sees fit and that it is not for the race of Adam to question him. Sheikh Adii believed that the spirit of Malak Ta’us is the same as his own, perhaps as a re-incarnation. He is believed to have said : "I was present when Adam was living in Paradise, and also when Nemrud threw Abraham in fire. I was present when God said to me: (You are the ruler and Lord on the Earth). God, the compassionate, gave me seven earths and throne of the heaven."
I find that to be a very interesting take on things

How come everyone has a different story? Who's right? What can I do to know for sure?

Kill yourself.

@Harbourboy:

They're all in the right, but none of them are right.
They're all in the wrong, but none of them are wrong.

You didn't see me, right? And I didn't write any of this.

Xtianity, eh?

I don't feel like arguing tonight, but I have Wicca (pagan) ancestors and Xtians are our sworn enemies. Yes, I am neo-wicca. (Or, neo-pagan)

It was Xtianity who forcefully "converted" Wiccas to the Xtian faith.

What's more, those ******* Xtians even had the nerve to build a church on a Wicca holy site.

I have a bone to pick with Xtians, alright. I think this post is just hilarious, primarily because I have never heard a Christian talk about Wiccans or pagans (not that the two are necessarily related terms -- Wicca is a modern movement, isn't it?), and because the Wiccan I spoke to at the university I go to never said anything about Christianity.

I guess I could understand if your local minister ran over your dog or something, but what exactly have Christians done to you? Personally, I wouldn't get mad at someone trying to -- in his mind -- lead me to salvation and away from hell.

And of course, you have to consider the extent of paganism that has been worked into Christian tradition (Easter, Noel).

And at what point in the timeline did this happen?This happenned prior to the Creation of the world as described in Genesis 1.

according to the commentary in my Bible, that passage isn't referring to Satan but to a figure of Canaanite mythology that is comparable to Icarus.First, I've heard that the name Lucifer means "the Light Bringer". He was among the best and the Brightest of the spirit children of God. The Bible I have does contain footnotes as well. By the name Lucifer, there is a footnote that implies that Lucifer's name translates as "morning star, son of dawn". The Ruler of teh Wicked world is spoken of as Lucifer, the ruler of all wickedness.

Secondly, if I remember rightly, the story of Icarus was that he tried to ascend too high and had the wax on his wings melt, causing him to plummet to his death. This doesn't sound too far from that of Lucifer, who tried to Usurp God's Glory and power but was cast down to Hell for his lust for power.

I have never heard a Christian talk about Wiccans or pagansI remain quiet on them because I don't know squat about them.

I wouldn't get mad at someone trying to -- in his mind -- lead me to salvation and away from hell.I believe that Christianity has come under fire for some of it's techniques. I believe that Joseph Smith would have died a Heretic as judged by the Spanish Inquisition. I understand that the Crusades make us unpopular in the Islamic world as well. The way the Native peoples of Notrh America were treated by Christian missionaries is nothing short of deplorable. Even in areas struck by starvation and disaster, there are some groups giving Bibles to starving people before they get food. All these groups miss the point of Christianity--to voluntarily live a good life and avoid sin rather than being forced into a restrictive life. Virtue untested is innocence, not purity.

hmm, the 'Why Wiccans Suck' site seems to have been hijacked - but all of its content seems to be here: http://www.wiccaweb.com/suck_immaturity.php

From reading the scientology thread I really expected this thread to be named "Who is more badass, Satan or Lord Xenu?" :p

On topic though.
I would never hold a grudge against Christians even though I find many of the acts in Christianity name throughout history, for example those that Gnarfflinger pointed out, to be despicable.

The thing that annoys me with some Christians, (and many other religious people) however, is the fact that I cannot stand people trying to convert you to their cause, be it political or religious.

Satan vs Xenu? The war that will end all wars

I believe that Christianity has come under fire for some of it's techniques. I believe that Joseph Smith would have died a Heretic as judged by the Spanish Inquisition. I understand that the Crusades make us unpopular in the Islamic world as well. The way the Native peoples of Notrh America were treated by Christian missionaries is nothing short of deplorable. Even in areas struck by starvation and disaster, there are some groups giving Bibles to starving people before they get food. All these groups miss the point of Christianity--to voluntarily live a good life and avoid sin rather than being forced into a restrictive life. Virtue untested is innocence, not purity. Of course, living in the Western world in the 20th century, I have not faced Grand Inquisitors or the like -- so I have no reason based upon personal experience to, you know, directly complain about Christians.

I think the biggest confusion of these posts is equating Satan and Lucifer.

Lucifer is a fallen angel, this a one of many stories in gospels that never entered the Bible. Lucifer, Morning Star or Day Star was cast down for great ambition, some surviving texts allude that it was because of Jesus, most assert that it was before Noah's flood even.

Satan is the great antithesis to God. God is the creator, Satan is the destroyer. Satan reigns over evil, misdeed, and manipulation. God reigns over good, healing, and cooperation. When God created man, Satan came to fruition, to test God's children. Satan is the opposite side of the coin that God is on, they are equal, but seperate. Together but misappropriated. They are one, and the same.

Lucifer is as an ant before Satan or God. Lucifer is meaningless, but a pretty word that fire and brimstone evangelists attached to and tried to divert the faithfuls eyes from God almighty and Satan all-ending.

and I think Satan'd mop the pavement with Xenu.

Actually, Lucifer became known as Satan when he was cast out of Heaven.

Depending on your religion of course. Some Kurds don't believe that Lucifer is Satan. If you read older religious documents, 'satan' means 'to hate' eg "He has many satans'.

Satan is the opposite side of the coin that God is on, they are equal, but seperate. Together but misappropriated. They are one, and the same.
Such a statement is only true of dualistic religions such as Zoroastrianism where the evil spirit [Ahriman] is regarded as existing independently of the creator of good [Ormazd/Ahura-Mazdah], but Hebrew religion has always maintained that Satan was subordinate to God and as such he appears in Job [I forget the reference] as one of the sons of God, delegated to inform God about human frailties.

Actually this is wrong. Isaiah 14: 12-15 gives such a reference.Follow the timeline, Gnarff. Isaiah happened way the heck later than than flood.

Follow the timeline, Gnarff. Isaiah happened way the heck later than than flood.And so was the life of Moses, who recorded the great flood. There is no book of Noah to record the warning from the lord, the building of the ark, the gathering of the animals, the flood...

Further, Lucifer was cast out of Heaven prior to creation, and is thus only provided through revelation of the Prophets (in this case, Isaiah).