A sprout off from the Jack Straw thread really. I just wanted to hear some thoughts on whether or not people think that if a person moves to a different country, should be they forced to conform with the new countries traditions and make a big effort to integrate? Or should they basically be allowed to live how they want, even that means separating themselves from the rest of the country and alienating themselves.

The question I'd like to raise is - how far should we allow people to take their beliefs in the name of integration? I believe absolutely in freedom of religion, but Britain is a country with a certain set of laws, based on the mores we've developed over milennia. Should we waive those laws because someone else's religion decrees they're inappropriate? I don't think there are many people who have a problem with anyone's right to worship - but what if that religion then demands something we find utterly abhorrent? Like, for example, the subjugation of women to the extent they're not allowed out of the house? The cutting of an animal's throat in the street? Female circumcision? Should we simply accept it into our society, turning a blind eye because it's someone else's religion?

Discuss

Of cause foreigners should try to intergrate themself and the society should give them as much help as possible, but becoming part of a society dosn't meen you have to leave all parts of your old one out.
the parts that should be left, are the parts that cant be integrated or go against the new societies laws.

Language is one, its a mild one, but learning the new countries language is very importent, in fact incisting on speaking ones old language even at home slows the integration. that said, it shouldn't be forbidden.

now to address your questions about religion. As most western if not all societies have a separation of church and state, religius laws should never be raised as equal to the laws of the state, so religions that for example demands the subjugation of women, should be forced to addapt or be forbidden in does aspects and society should never turn a blind eye to such thing, just because people hide behind religion.

Like Equester said, immigrants should follows the laws of their new home country. All cultural or religious practices that violate any laws should be not practised any more.
The receiving society should help immigrants to integrate by making it possible to become citizens or by offering them benefits for taking language courses, for example.

That is the ideal basis.


Integration is more complicated, though. Many immigrants everywhere don't know about certain rules of communication in main society. In order to learn them, they have to make contacts to people in that society. But contacts may result in conflict, and they often do, in fact.

So the strategy of separation to build sub-societies where immigrants can rely on infrastructure they know and understand is a very comprehensible and natural way to avoid conflicts with 'aboriginies'. ;)

Integration and eventually assimilation is a very long process that results in assimilation of both societies: the immigrant and the aboriginal one.

should be they forced to conform with the new countries traditions and make a big effort to integrate? Well, you can't force someone to make a 'big effort' to integrate. Just like you can't force a native born hermit to get out a bit more. What does 'integrate' even mean? Are you suggesting a law that says that immigrants have to eat steak and ale pie at least once a week and visit the local pub at least twice a week and get season tickets to at least one soccer team?

Clearly, I am exaggerating a bit, but I'm just trying to get an idea of where you think the line should be drawn. For me, the line is drawn at the existing laws of the land. New people to a country have to obey the laws. So, no stoning of adulterers, even if your God tells you to. But you're welcome to have a 17 day wedding ceremony standing on your head if that is what is traditional for you.

As an American living in Korea I think I have a unique perspective on this. The fact is, I spend most of my time with other English-speaking foreigners drinking proper ales at an Irish pub and eating fish and chips and hamburgers.

Ask yourself how willing you'd be to adopt the customs and culture of, say, Saudi Arabia, if you were to spend a year, or the rest of your life, there.

But hanging out at an Irish bar is hardly disruptive to the lives of Koreans, so is fine.

I don't believe in forcing incomers to let go of their old traditions and embrace what they find in their destination. But they should always respect the local customs and do the public duty so far as possible. I have no problem with the fact that someone's religion prohibits military service. In fact, I don't even think we have to prosecute sects saying you shouldn't pay taxes (just an example; they have existed, historically, but I can't think of any in the present times) - they should be allowed to contribute to the society in some other way, maybe by work, same as with people who can't serve with guns but can surely train as field nurses. People should also be let go to their temples for the obligatory services. There's no reason to expect them all to comply with the same letter of the law as everyone else. We can make room, we can adapt. There is much else they can contribute if we don't take what they don't want to give. But when they don't want to contribute, when they want to claim our land not only as estate proprietors but even as sovereigns, that's when a problem starts. And a big one.

Consequently, if they start preaching hostility and declaring themselves as our enemies, let's treat them as enemies. If they declare contempt for us, our culture, our traditions, let us deprive them of the material fruit of our culture. Let's free them of what they despise and deport them where they came from.

As for the situation of women, children, workers, I don't think the ethnic groups in question are ready to embrace our democratic reality with all the equality and liberty mindset. Let's think of ourselves a hundred years ago. And it's not true that we don't have any inequality or opression in our society, far from that. So, unless people are oppressed against their will (beatings, rape, property extortion, imprisonment), it might be a better idea to try less drastic and more diplomatic means and influence them with culture rather than force. We won't make islamic women happy by tearing their burkhas, hijabs and scarves off.

To sum up, my idea is that we should cooperate and make room for them, even creating new laws, new ways to do things in our system. We should go to great lenghts if they want to cooperate. But we shouldn't give up our values and we should not accept hostility, violence, hatred, contempt. Nor should we place the incomers' beliefs or values or traditions above our own. For example, crescents shouldn't be protected more than crucifixes. Muhammad should not receive legal protections we haven't applied even to Jesus. Incomers are guests, even welcome guests, but they are not hosts. And this they should understand.

I disagree with part of your post Chev, it seems like your saying, if incomers with a religion that goes against the countries laws, break the law in the name of the religion, the law should make room for them.
If that is what your saying, I disagree. we tried that in Denmark with Jehovas witnesses, they didn't want to serve in the army, which is not a problem in it self, because in denmark we have some forced military service, it works like a lottery, does who lose go to the army, or if it goes against thier believe do some civic service, this they denied too, saying thier religion forbids it.
In this case they are unwilling to adapt and i think people who are unwilling to do either is sent to prison or at least fined a fee.

Secondly we have muslims, who believe anything negative written about islam is an offence and should be punished, should we follow them? hell no, we have something called freedom of speech, and they will have to learn to live with it. they come to foreign country they adapt. That is the case with any immigration.

It is not the countrie that have to make room for immigrants and adapt to them. its the immigrants that have to find a spot in the society and adapt. and while they do so they might contribute and change society for the bether.

as regarding Burkhas (scarves and such im fine with) im having a hard time deciding what to do with them, mainly cause they in a certain view goes against the law (we have a law forbidding facial covering, unless necesary for protection), soin reality these pieces of clothing goes against the law. on the other hand, they are a religius outfitt that might enrage thousand of people if forced off.
and what to do about them in security checks? we had problem with a guard not wanting to cause trouble so he didn't check under a burka, guess what, the person under it was a journalist and to make it worse, male.

I think that if you don't like the laws in a certain country, then you should not go and live there. Simple as that.

Eye for an eye. It's really kinda unfortunate that many foreigners do not really find themselves fitting in, mainly due of the language barriers, and thus start to gather into separated groups. This, IMO, is a bad thing, since it basically creates isolated cultural areas where there should be none (I mean: what is the point of leaving your country only to re-create it inside a foreign one?). You know the news about those groups burning cars in France.

On the other hand, it is also unfortunate that the local population usually also views foreigners skeptically. I can understand it in the case of africans, but every other race should be welcomed and provided for. If it is not possible due of the crimes or some other reasons, they can always be removed from the country. Now, instead of seeing first, the attitudes are about judging before seeing. I.e: ridicilously tight immigration requirments, like in Finland, Russia, and Japan. Basically, you have to live half of your life in the country and speak the language like a native to have the same rights as a native. Until that happens, you are always just an alien.

Exceptions should be made, of course, like in the case of army. Conscriptism shouldn't really affect immigrants.

wordplay could you elaborate why you can undestand skepticism versus africans more then versus other people?

oh and The jehovas witnesses unwilling to serve thier time, arent immigrants. immigrants cant be drafted, thier children when grown can of cause.

Moderation is the key, as always. Making no attempt to integrate at all is just plain rude, when YOU came here of YOUR free will. Get enough people doing that, and its practically an attempt at annexing. :rolleyes: But you don't want to be assimilated :borg: either. Maintaining your own culture is a good thing, as it promotes diversity.

The biggest problem is where to draw the line, and difficulties arise when people draw the line way back in their own country. Some things simply MUST be integrated, law being first and foremost, language coming second (communication is extremely important in today's world), and then everything else needs to be merged. We're not asking you to drop your own culture, just to adopt ours as well and create a good mix of the two. I don't think there are that many actually mutually exclusive cultures out there, and the few that exist...probably just shouldn't trade citizens.

2 rules I would have in place for them.

1. Learn the Language. Don't walk into my workplace and get pissed off with me because I don't speak Swahili or whatever. I only speak English, and I can't help you if you don't.

2: Obey the law. Your religion may teach you that it's fine to beat your wife if she displeases you, but Our laws don't allow that. Freedom of religion has it's limits...

I don't think that integration is especially important - communication is, however. Immigrants and the majority need to have some common language or there is no benefit to society by having immigrants there, and plenty of potential for harm.

The ideal solution would be to teach several major languages to young children (from kindergarten up). I've heard of schools that do this and it sounds like an awesome idea.

As an American living in Korea I think I have a unique perspective on this. The fact is, I spend most of my time with other English-speaking foreigners drinking proper ales at an Irish pub and eating fish and chips and hamburgers. Just wondering if you would be happy for Koreans to spend their time in Asian establishments, making no effort to spend time with locals?

Wordplay, the french immigrant youth riots aren't a result of voluntary separation, but of the forced segregation between french society and the immigrants.

Its very simple, IMO...

Laws first
Religion second

Everything else should be left alone. For instance, if I were to run a red light in Saudi Arabia, I have to spend a night (or two) in the slammer, compulsorily...so I don't whinge about it.

If I were to have more than one wife in India, I can face criminal charges by any of my wives...again, its the law, so I have to man up and face it.

As long as I don't expressly violate any laws of said Western country, I don't see how anyone has any right to prevent me from doing anything my religion may or may not require me to do. Just because Westerners find it distasteful is not rational and valid grounds for prohibiting certain practices.

Of course, as I said earlier, if it contradicts any particular law of the country, then there's no arguments. Complete and total ban! But if it doesn't and its just considered "weird", "gross" or "unacceptable" by Western morality systems...then I'd say take a hike! :p

@Equester: If they didn't want to do any form of civic service, I think they crossed the line of not cooperating. ;) Maybe they could pay double tax for a year or something to compensate (historically, there used to be a tax you paid to avoid draft), but I really can't see what's so bad about getting some training in administrative duties, medical service, whatever. At the worst, I can't imagine any religion forbidding you from sweeping the streets and if they can't do anything else, they should do just that.

First of all, they should offer to do something and make a lot of effort to come through as helpful and cooperative. If they don't bother, they're asking for trouble.

Secondly we have muslims, who believe anything negative written about islam is an offence and should be punished, should we follow them? hell no, we have something called freedom of speech, and they will have to learn to live with it. they come to foreign country they adapt. That is the case with any immigration.That's what I said. No special protection for symbols of Islam. I believe in wide protection of religious symbols, beliefs and feelings (e.g. any desecration in art should be banned), but if they want protection above other religions, then they are trying to obtain a creeping recognition of the "fact" that Islam is better than other religions. That's bad. I would always ask them if they were ready to respect the symbols and beliefs of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hinduists, whatever other religion, the same way. If yes, then they have a legitimate wish for protection. If not, then they have creepy agenda.

It is not the countrie that have to make room for immigrants and adapt to them. its the immigrants that have to find a spot in the society and adapt. and while they do so they might contribute and change society for the bether.Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to concede some bureaucracy and make life easier on them. Just so long as they don't become privileged over indigenous citizens. For example, if members of a sect believed they could only serve at a higher army rank than other conscripts because it's their role to lead the world etc, I would tell them to go to a military academy or get bent. If some creeps believed in sacrificing cats to their deity, I wouldn't support them either.

and what to do about them in security checks? we had problem with a guard not wanting to cause trouble so he didn't check under a burka, guess what, the person under it was a journalist and to make it worse, male.There should be control in such cases but only by females. There's no need whatsoever for a male to assist. Even if some of our women don't care, Islamic women have the right to. ;) I have a problem with the idea that it's right to have cross-gender personal control if it can be avoided.

I would also like to agree with what Felinoid said, that moderation is key. ;) Because it is. And they need to learn the language. If they refuse to, I say deport them because they are an alien body. I don't say a 60 year old demented fugitive with heaps of issues from his homeland should be forced to learn a difficulty language. But if young or middle-aged people come with ideas of creating enclaves and never cooperating with the local populace... screw them.

However, I believe the same what holds for dirt poor Asians should hold for rich American executives. If the little Cheng needs to learn Polish to sell clothes at the market, the big Jefferson T. Rosenberg, III needs to learn Polish to head a company here. Only fair.

and what to do about them in security checks? we had problem with a guard not wanting to cause trouble so he didn't check under a burka, guess what, the person under it was a journalist and to make it worse, male. Just with regards to that...its perfectly legit to have a woman check any other Islamic woman who is under a burkha, and any attempt to say otherwise is :bs:

Also, I failed to mention in my earlier post that immigrants using religion and other similar belief systems as an excuse to secure preferential treatment for themselves is blatantly dishonest and definitely not to be allowed.

Having said that, c'mon guys! Freedom of speech is all well and good, but Muslim bashing is a strict :nono: !

I don't know what will western countries do about it but the turban (or burkha or whatever) is a great problem here. It is forbidden for students (including university students), teachers, doctors and other workers in government offices to wear it. But number of women wearing it in the streets is increasing. Forcing people doesn't work here.

we had problem with a guard not wanting to cause trouble so he didn't check under a burka, guess what, the person under it was a journalist and to make it worse, male. There are worse examples: In Turkey this year a man wearing a burkha (we call it sheet here actually :D ) was caught by police and an AK-47 was found under the burkha. In another event (also in Turkey) a male terrorist was caught under burkha.

Also some Muslims need to learn the difference between criticism and offence. Even if a cartoon, movie or something offends them, this doesn't give them the right to kill who did it.

There is also an economical problem. I know some Turks living in Germany, aren't working, taking money from government for unemployment or for having children. I understand why racism is rising there.

At the same time Dengo there are German (and other nationalities) villages in Turkey where they more or less are creating Germany in their little part of Turkey. They are there for the cheap property and sun, not the amazing culture or history.

Well, in America this has been going on since - America existed basically. To this day there are areas of many major metropolitan centers that are named based on the type of people that live there. For example, in New York City, there is a section called China Town and Little Italy. There's also a Little Italy section in Baltimore. It should be noted that these areas serve a very practical purpose. If you are immigrating to the U.S. and don't speak English, it may really help you to get on your feet if you live in an area that speaks your home language. Of course, having said that, I think SOME effort should be made to integrate into U.S. society, and living in such an area may be an impediment to meeting that goal.

I also have some perspective on this being a 2nd generation American. My wife is also a 2nd generation American. From what I have seen from my own family and hers, it appears to me that immigrants very rarely will integrate fully, unless they come here at a very young age. In the case of my grandparents, while they weren't born in the U.S. they came here as children, went to school here, learned the English language and integrated very well. However, I'm told that my grandparents' parents (so my great grandparents) never integrated. They all died before I was born, so I never knew any of them. However, my father tells me that he never had a single conversation with any of his grandparents. The reason for this is that none of them ever learned how to speak English, and he never learned how to speak Italian or Slovak (his granparents' country of origin was either Italy or Czekoslovakia). My wife has similar stories on her side of the family.

Because of this, I feel that attempting to force any type of integration on immigrants beyond the application of the nation's laws is a futile effort - a fool's errand if you will. I don't think we should make special accomodations for them, but at the same time, if they obey the laws then I don't think anything more will need to be done. History has shown us that their children become Americanized soon enough anyway.

There is only one case where I will make an exception, and that is in education. In order to make it in America, it really, really helps to speak English. Therefore, I think it should be required that the children of immigrants attend English-speaking schools. There are some areas of the U.S., predominantly in the south and southwest, where the concentration of Spanish speaking people (and this includes both legal and illegal ones) is so high where they are offering Spanish speaking public schools. I completely disagree with this. If you want your kid to go to a Spanish speaking school, that should have to be privately funded. I see no reason why taxpayers money should go to a cause that clearly works against the integration of children into American society.

@Faraaz:

Just with regards to that...its perfectly legit to have a woman check any other Islamic woman who is under a burkha, and any attempt to say otherwise isIt used to be as simple as having the right or not having it. But nowadays things have become more complex than that and we sometimes wonder if one has the right to make use of another right. So yeah, they have the right to control them also. But they should treat all women equally without singling out or randomly selecting interesting subjects etc. The idea is that they should have a good reason to control a person at all unless they are controlling everyone.

Also, I failed to mention in my earlier post that immigrants using religion and other similar belief systems as an excuse to secure preferential treatment for themselves is blatantly dishonest and definitely not to be allowed.Agreed unless there's a legitimate ground. E.g. a Catholic charity has every right to distribute medicines but not contraceptives. Muslim restaurants have every right not to serve alcohol. Jews have every right to demand other food than pork (or Catholics meat on Friday). And so on and so forth. But demanding to be put in a dominant position or freed of any public burden is dishonest and shouldn't be tolerated.

@Dengo:

There is also an economical problem. I know some Turks living in Germany, aren't working, taking money from government for unemployment or for having children. I understand why racism is rising there.Yes. No one has any right to do that. Especially not immigrants.

@Cúchulainn:

At the same time Dengo there are German (and other nationalities) villages in Turkey where they more or less are creating Germany in their little part of Turkey. They are there for the cheap property and sun, not the amazing culture or history.Snobby immigrants should be treated the same as dirt poor immigrants, I guess. For example, for some people, Poland will be the better world - free good education, more opportunity than they have where they lived before. For some others, there will be lower prices than elsewhere in the EU, or better opportunities just because of sharing nationality with a corporate boss who prefers to man posts with compatriots.

@Aldeth: Yeah, the US is different. I think it's a good thing, actually. But they should make more effort to speak English. I don't say there should be no room for those who can't really blend in, especially if they already have people from similar backgrounds who will help them, but all in all, some extent of conforming should be there. So long as they realise they are guests, it's fine.

At the same time Dengo there are German (and other nationalities) villages in Turkey where they more or less are creating Germany in their little part of Turkey. They are there for the cheap property and sun, not the amazing culture or history. Yes and that's one of the reasons for rising of nationalism here too. :D BTW I said I understand why racism is rising in Germany but of course I don't agree them.

I remembered something now, there is a village in Kars(a city in northeast Turkey), founders of village were Germans. They came after 1877-1878 Ottoman-Russia war. Most of them has gone to Germany for economical problems of our country. Only one family is left. They look like our villagers. They wear same cloths even though they're Christians. That's an extreme example of integration. :lol: Younger boy of family says they read both Bible and Quran in funerals.

Turks in Germany should learn a few things from these people. I don't mean Turks should read Bible there but at least they can try to look more modern. My mother went there 2 or 3 years ago and she says there are more women wearing turban or burkha in Germany than Turkey.

I believe immigrants should do all that they can to reconsile their new nationality with their native ethnicity. No one should integrate fully - as the great societies have shown that diverse cultures are by far more beneficial than the xenophobic. But to respect their new country and countrymen, immigrants should (at a minimum) become fluent in the dominant language, involve themselves in local politics and social settings, contribute to the local economy by paying taxes and working, and not shut themselves off from their neighbors.

This also goes both ways, of course - the locals need to be as welcoming as possible. The greater the cultural divide, the more difficult the welcome. But the wheels are greased here when the immigrants make the first move. They are the strangers, after all - so it isn't their place to impose their own standards and customs on the status quo. As an immigrant, they've (by definition) made a decision to join another culture - they should make an active effort to integrate and learn about their new home.

So to answer your question, Barmy: I say yes, it is their duty as immigrants to integrate. It is counterproductive, unrealistic, and (IMO) extremely selfish for immigrants to refuse to do so. I do draw a definite distinction between integration and assimilation.

I think integration is necessary to the extent that the immigrant can function as a part of the native society. So, at least knowing enough of the language to communicate easily, and at least a basic knowledge of the country's norms and values, as well as history.

It sounds like most of us are in agreement in this thread (what a civilised discussion).

Foreigners can bring such variety and new life to a country. If every foreigner who came to live in New Zealand integrated completely and just went to work at McDonalds, then there wouldn't be the fantastic Asian restaurants and Food Alleys that I go to for my lunch every day. We wouldn't have the great Chinese New Year parades or the colourful Diwahli festivals. We wouldn't have St Patrick's Day drinks. We wouldn't have the Dutch shop I go to for my cheese and sausages.

I think we all agree that compliance with laws and some effort at speaking the local language are good, but not at the expense of losing the diversity of culture in the world. Actually, the people who work in the Asian Food Alley I go to don't seem to be able to speak much English, but that doesn't really get in the way of me giving them money and them making me a delicious Tonkotsu-Ramen.

@Dengo:

Also some Muslims need to learn the difference between criticism and offence. Even if a cartoon, movie or something offends them, this doesn't give them the right to kill who did it. Agreed...the extremely volatile nature of the Islamic masses is one of the major reasons they have such a bad reputation with other societies.

@Chev:

Snobby immigrants should be treated the same as dirt poor immigrants, I guess. I can talk about this a bit, because of the huge increase in the number of foreigners coming into India at the moment.

For instance, whenever I'm going back to India for my holidays from Sydney, there's tons of Caucasians on the flights from Singapore to India...and its always a sight to see them when they go out into India for the first time. Especially when they get ripped off at customs... >_<

At general to all you guys if you plan on coming to India in the near future...if you are white, you WILL get ripped off because there's so many dodgy characters around on the streets here, and I think this is a weird take on racism. For instance, if you take a taxi in Bangalore, if the normal fare is 50 rupees, you're going to get charged 300 rupees because you are an obvious foreigner.

In this vein, a VERY funny, yet sad incident:

I was with my girlfriend at this coffee shop when an elderly British couple came up to us and asked us for some directions. When we told them where they needed to go, the gentleman pulls out a 100 rupee note. I told him he didn't need to PAY me just for giving him directions!! Only..he said he had to pay the last guy he asked...

So yeah...that's just as bad as racial discrimination against colored people in Western countries and things like that...

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned how multi-nationals push their country of origins culture on to people, instead of respecting local culture.

Pizza Hut - when they first came to N.Ireland they did not realize that we eat Pizza with knife and fork, not our hands. ugghhhhhhh. Ireland like many countries has their own type of pizza, but you will not find Sodabread Pizza in any Irish branch of Pizza hut.

Walmart - Opened up ASDA and tried to flog nasty processed American cheeses and similar itmes instead of stocking local foods. They soon changed their tune but only stock a few Irish cheeses, breads etc. Its no wonder that Tesco and Marks and Spencer are more popular.

Many US businesses do not respect local worker rights, eg Burger King in Lisburn was paying students £2 per hour in the early 90's. There are currently no BK's in Lisburn (population of almost 200000).

B&Q's store in a Nationalist area had the strange idea of making their staff wear new uniforms with Union Jacks! It would have worked in a Unionist area though...

There is also an economical problem. I know some Turks living in Germany, aren't working, taking money from government for unemployment or for having children. I understand why racism is rising there. Yes and that's one of the reasons for rising of nationalism here too. BTW I said I understand why racism is rising in Germany but of course I don't agree them.The fascination. Are we talking racism among Germans - or among Turks in Germany?

@Dendri :

In the first post I tried to tell I understand why Germans (especially neo-nazis) are angry at Turks in Germany.

The second post is about Turks here getting angry for they think their lands are being "invaded by Germans (and English as I heard on TV)"... Also I said :
BTW I said I understand why racism is rising in Germany but of course I don't agree them to tell i don't agree with nazis, their ideas, their ways(They attack Turks sometimes). I didn't want to be seen like a nazi-lover.... I just understand why they're angry at Turks.

I hope that was more clear.

Dengo, dunno whether or not you've got it figured out in your time here but I am German, and I found your statements pretty off.
You claimed racism is on the rise here. Do you understand on which side? The Neonazis, yes. A problem that is recognized. What about the Turkish people who live here? Young Turkish males in particular. There is an alarming nationalist tendency among them; it brings with it violence and racist slurs against us. Organized as Milli Görüsch and Grauen Wölfe (Grey Wolves). Groups deemed so dangerous that our secret service (BND) is charged with observing them.

So please. :nono:

At general to all you guys if you plan on coming to India in the near future...if you are white, you WILL get ripped off because there's so many dodgy characters around on the streets here, and I think this is a weird take on racism. For instance, if you take a taxi in Bangalore, if the normal fare is 50 rupees, you're going to get charged 300 rupees because you are an obvious foreigner.Thanks for the advice, Faraaz. That's the sort of inside local knowledge that makes hanging around SP useful. Not that I plan to go to India any time soon, but I still think that's the sort of stuff I'd love to know.

@Dendri : Did I say the only problem was neo-nazis? I was just writing about neo-nazis. I never said there is no nationalism (or racism) in Turks. ;) My aunt (and lots of people I know) lives there and I know what's happening there.

Actually I don't think Turkish nationalism is on the rise. Because it was always high. :D Most of my friends are and were nationalists because nearly everyone is nationalist. Damn, it is our official ideology. Fascist grey wolves were supported by government and killed people as they want here.

BTW Milli Görüsch is (despite its name-National Idea) not a very nationalist group but exteremely Islamic which could be more dangerous.

I know these groups are very strong there, actually stronger than here. So please don't try to tell me that I'm an arrogant and looking from one side. You don't say it but you mean it. :mad: :p

Did I say the only problem was neo-nazis? I was just writing about neo-nazis. I never said there is no nationalism (or racism) in Turks. My aunt (and lots of people I know) lives there and I know what's happening there.Of course... It just needed some tweaking. Glad to be of service.

BTW Milli Görüsch is (despite its name-National Idea) not a very nationalist group but exteremely Islamic which could be more dangerous.
In any event, they preach hatred and contempt. Whether the reason for it is nationalism or religious in nature will have people occupied only for so long. ;)


I know these groups are very strong there, actually stronger than here. So please don't try to tell me that I'm an arrogant and looking from one side. You don't say it but you mean it. Bah! That's not at all what I think. Study incomplete. :borg:

For instance, if you take a taxi in Bangalore, if the normal fare is 50 rupees, you're going to get charged 300 rupees because you are an obvious foreigner. Bah. Our people does better than that. In Turkey if taxi driver understands that you're from a different city (not country) he will try to rip you off too. :lol:

What Faraaz said about India is also true for Turkey too. If you come here be careful.

@Dendri : Thank you for making me laugh today. A German told me how dangerous Milli Görüsch and Grey Wolves are today. I didn't have so much fun lately. :shake:

BTW stay away from Greywolves, they may bite you. :p :lol:

Heh. Will stay clear of them. I heard the guys wear thongs, and they are way too tight. :D

Dendri, it's the Verfassungsschutz, not the BND. ;)


The Grey Wolves had always followers under turkish immigrants in Germany. I don't think their number is rising.
Religious fanatics, now, are another issue. Or rather 'fundamentalists'.

But it is important to know why more and more muslim immigrants go back to their religious 'roots'. The phenomenon is a symptome of the lack of integration, and not the cause.

Here, we have a problem with French businesses negotiating huge tax breaks and getting them, not respecting the rights of our workers and screwing our economy big time. Same with Americans. They come here, buy banks out and turn workers into drones with their stupid integration idea. That means demoting everyone to simple grunt and pretending to be generous for stealing people's weekends with their integration trips where they integrate people e.g. by having them roar unison at the director's sign. Not to mention using English as the language of operation.

I was thrown out of a Filipino cafe once for being local! This happened in Belfast of all places.

That type of foreigner I can do without - racist foreigners, not Filipinos in general.

Dendri, it's the Verfassungsschutz, not the BND. Hoppla. :D You are right, of course. The fact remains that they are a threat. Note to self: No more posting while gripped by fever. Thusly, I'm gonna try to make this quick.

The Grey Wolves had always followers under turkish immigrants in Germany. I don't think their number is rising.
Religious fanatics, now, are another issue. Or rather 'fundamentalists'.The ranks of the Grey Wolves may or may not swell, but nationalism among the Turks here is definitely on the rise. Personal impressions aside, the observations of the experts would all have to be flawed otherwise. Fabius, I doubt that.

But it is important to know why more and more muslim immigrants go back to their religious 'roots'. The phenomenon is a symptome of the lack of integration, and not the cause.Well, I agree in part. However, the other interesting question would be why integration of Muslims, Turks, Arabs largely failed all over Europe.
It's questionable if their chauvinist attitude - regardless of how it manifests itself - is a response to our vices. Far more, it seems innate to me, legacy of their home societies. Those arent beacons of tolerance and progress. I am not that prepared to accept the blame for it. There has been failure of policies, in that they were allowed to stay. You know that was not how it was supposed to go. But we also have a severe mismatch of mentalities to deal with. Both make for a volatile mix.

Not to mention using English as the language of operation.No way. The French using English as the language of operation?!

Well, I agree in part. However, the other interesting question would be why integration of Muslims, Turks, Arabs largely failed all over Europe.
It's questionable if their chauvinist attitude - regardless of how it manifests itself - is a response to our vices. Far more, it seems innate to me, legacy of their home societies. Those arent beacons of tolerance and progress. I am not that prepared to accept the blame for it. There has been failure of policies, in that they were allowed to stay. You know that was not how it was supposed to go. But we also have a severe mismatch of mentalities to deal with. Both make for a volatile mix.Work migrants always settled in the countries they migrated to. That lesson should have been learned from experiences in 19th century.
And it's not that a lot of them didn't went home. Almost the half of all german 'guest workers' returned in the country of their origin.

The problems we are having now are purely social, because our integration policy was non-existent. Since the 1960es, the overall opinion in german society (for example) was negative towards non-germans with different skin colour. First, the italians were recognized as problem, then it was the turks. Therefore, integration policies were almost a non-issue until 1998.

No way. The French using English as the language of operation?!Hehe, you missed the point where I switched to badmouthing Americans. :shake: No, seriously, I don't mind cooperating with people and using English as either their own language or the universal one, or even working for a division of a foreign company with foreigners and using the language they speak. But I don't like whole big banks and businesses becoming English-speaking and acquiring English as an official language. ;) It's difficult to grasp where the limit is, but it certainly is crossed in some cases. ;)

Should they be forced to intergrate? No.
Should they be forced to obey the law? Yes.

Should they be encouraged to intergrate through the provision of language lessons and education of children? Most empatically Yes.
I would struggle to understand why anyone would turn down language lessons if they intended to move to a foreign country, and would look askance at anyone refusing. I'd even go as far as making it compulsory.