This is going to be a long post. So be warned before you start reading.

I was, up untill recently, a long time member of a roleplaying site online. Its the kind where you write what your character does and post it, and then the others in the thread posts back. Great fun. It was based on a very popular fantasy setting. I was there for about 5 years, and I was an OP in the site`s chatroom. Wich is pretty much the reason why I quit.

About a year ago a 14 year old girl from the chtroom messages me and tells me that she is afraid of one of the other members, and that the guy she is talking about has raped her and taped it. Pretty much a horrible tale. I naturally log this and save it onto my comp. Thinking I should talk to some other OP`s about it before I do anything rash. Wich was a good call because the next day the girl (lets call her Betty) is flirting shamelessly with the guy she has just accused of rape (going to call him bob from now on). Instead of doing anything I just let it go. Its obvious that the chic lied to me anyway.

Then a year later she blurts out that she has to pop out of the chatroom for abit, since she is about to have phone sex with someone. that someone was one of the other OP`s. a 25 year old bloke (I think thats his age), the bloke bragged slightly about it on msn messenger to me so she wasn`t telling a lie that time. Anyway a huge "thing" happens in the chatroom wich ends with Bob getting permanently banned from the site and the chatroom. For sexuall harassment aparantly. This time Betty has been sending nude pics of herself to guys in the chatroom, including Bob and the Phonesex bloke. Now Bob has deleted his pics and asked if she could send them to him anew. This she logged and handed over to the administrators of the site to get him removed, for reasons unknown. So he kept bugging her for pics, reason enough for a ban, no argument there. BUT since she had been telling lies about him earlier, accusing him of rape etc when it was obvious bull****, the admins shouldn`t really have belived her. Don`t get me wrong Bob was a bigtime slimer and having him removed was a relieff to everyone. But the admins continued their witchunt and actually named Bob on the site as a sexuall harasser, right there in public for all to see. And all this on information given to them by a notorious liar........

Naturally I think this is abit wrong, and a slight abuse of power on the administrator`s part. I bring up the issue that the chic is 15 years old, ergo a kid technically. And that one of the OP`s (close friend of the administrators by the way) had phone sex with her AND has gotten the same pictures of her that Bob got. So if one gets banned so should the other. The administrators now wants loggs of things they can pin on the OP in question (OP = chatroom operator by the way), and that I should get those, not them. I do that and I find out even more. I have one lady who had cyber sex with said person years back, and he is now threathening to send the logs of it to her husband. The lass was in tears when she told me this. the OP guy also sendt out logs of private conversations he had had with his ex gf (also a site member) when she broke up with him. A lame way to take "revenge" really. This pissed me off more than a little. Especially since all this is not enough to get the guy spanked, even when liar Betty got a less popular fellow banned on pretty much her word alone.
I push it of course, demanding that the bloke gets banned. And all I get back is that I am a trouble maker and should keep my mouth shut. that nobody wants to hear anything about it and so on. Wich is really frustrating as well, since I only did what I was told to do. The asked me to get loggs and stuff and I did. There is alot more crap about this than I wrote down here as well, but I don`t have the energy to write it all down. I did however tell everyone off in the chatroom while being drunk (norwegian you know....viking blood...).

So anyway what I am curious about here is this. Am I the nutcase here? And is it even legal to have a site where tha OP`s or administrators get to have phone sex with 15 year olds?
This is really getting to me I must admit. I wouldn`t have posted this otherwise.

Hope for some constructive feedback.

thanks in advance.

Rawgrim, you're not the nutcase. This is the kind of thing that gives computer communities the terrible reputation they enjoy (!) in so many quarters.

As to legality, no idea. Wouldn't be legal n the U.S. And the feds love to go after people who use computers to sexually exploit minors, so it's terribly risky to do so. Just the other day I read about a high school student facing federal charges because of alleged kiddy porn found on his computer. In the U.S. it is the adult always at fault - no matter how seductive the minor acts, the law presumes (rightly, IMHO) that the adult is the one who must exercise the judgment and self control to avoid sexual exploitation.

I don't know the law where you are, and it may all be complicated by the international nature of internet communities - I'm no lawyer, thank heavens. But I urge you to document everything, and back up your documentation, and get away, far away, from that site and never go back, ever. No matter how much fun you had on it. It's not worth the risk.

Finally, in the U.S., because of the line of work I am in, I am what is called a "mandated reporter." That means if I have direct knowledge of any kind of abuse of a child or other vulnerable person (mentally handicapped, elderly, physically handicapped, etc.) I am required by law to report it and am subject to criminal prosecution if I do not. I do not know what your situation is in Norway, but beware if there is mandated reporting that covers your profession - you may be breaking the law by not reporting it.

Bottom line: you're the only one in this situation with his head on halfway straight. Document, get out and stay out, and if the law requires it, report.

I'll be moving this to AoDA...

Anyway, I don't think that age comes into play as long as the sex is only virtual (our lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong)... but it rarely stays at that in such cases. It's stuff like this that gives chatrooms a bad name in the general press, but the truth is, chatrooms are completely benign by default. It's what people do there behind the scenes that is often very problematic, and no matter how asexual a chatroom aims to be, when you get male and female members involved in chatting, it turns sexual sooner or later. It's basic human nature and chatrooms seem to be places that naturally lend themselves to such (ab)use.

As for underage girls getting involved in things like these... It's relatively common again. There's the thin veil of supposed anonymity and distance from the other people in the chatroom, but you can imagine how good young girls are at safeguarding their privacy. In a few weeks everyone in the chatroom will know everything about them. The only thing that can make the situation worse is if the girl has a digital cam (though these days with cams on phones they don't even need that any more). The results are pretty typical and something that parents are sorely lacking information and warnings about.

And while most of what I've mentioned above is unavoidable no matter how much care is taken to prevent it by the administration, when a site or chatroom administrators abuse their position of power to prey on the weak (even if it means only going along with solicitations), the house of cards falls down completely.

Since you've got sense enough to realize that it's wrong, the only real advice I can give you is to distance yourself from the site or chatroom where such things take place. If it makes you feel any better, you can't really do anything when the leadership starts screwing up and you're not one of them. Unless they do something about it, usually no one will until the police gets involved.

Anyway, I don't think that age comes into play as long as the sex is only virtual (our lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong)... Virtual sex doesn't really count as sex, although it already qualifies as a sexual activity and is thus normally illegal with minors. Asking her for pics would be illegal here and most probably illegal anywhere civilised. The problem is age. Norwegian age of consent is 14 years. I suppose the girl was younger then that when it began, no?

Anyway, let's look at a translation of the Norwegian criminal code:

§ 195. Any person who commits or is accessory to another person's committing an act of indecency with a child under 14 years of age shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, but not less than one year if the act of indecency was sexual intercourse.

If as a result of the act the aggrieved person dies or sustains serious injury to body or health, or the offender has previously been convicted and sentenced pursuant to this section or section 192, or the act has been committed in a particularly painful or particularly offensive manner, or has been committed against a child under ten years of age and there have been repeated assaults, a sentence of imprisonment for a term not exceeding 21 years may be imposed. Venereal disease shall always be deemed to be serious injury to body or health pursuant to this section.

A mistake as regards the child's age shall not exclude criminal liability.
Virtual sex would be an act of indecency (unless there's something very, very weird in the way they interpret this in Norway), but if she's older than 14 years, no luck. However, there's a lesser penalty for under 16 years of age, which she still is:

§ 196. Any person who commits or is accessory to another person's committing an act of indecency with any person who is under 16 years of age shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

If as a result of the act the aggrieved person dies or sustains serious injury to body or health, or the offender has previously been convicted and sentenced pursuant to this section or pursuant to section 192 or 195, or the act is committed in a particularly painful or particularly offensive manner, a term of imprisonment not exceeding 15 years may be imposed. Venereal disease shall always be deemed to be serious injury to body or health pursuant to this section.

A mistake as regards a person's age shall not exclude criminal liability unless no negligence can be attributed to the offender in this respect.The juicy part is:

A mistake as regards a person's age shall not exclude criminal liability unless no negligence can be attributed to the offender in this respect.So no bull**** talk to explain it away.

If you want something more specifically matching virtual sex:

§ 212. Any person shall be liable to fines or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year who by indecent conduct in word or deed offends against modesty or is accessory thereto if the offence has occurred

1. in public

2. in the presence of or against any person who has not consented thereto, or

3. in the presence of or against any child under 16 years of age.

Any person who commits an indecent act with any person under 16 years of age or misleads any person under 16 years of age into indecent conduct shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years.Possessing her nude pics or giving her one's own is illegal:

§ 211. Any person shall be liable to fines or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both who

a) gives a public lecture or arranges a public performance or exhibition of an indecent or pornographic nature,

b) publishes, offers for sale or hire or in any other way attempts to disseminate, or with intent to so disseminate imports indecent or pornographic writings, pictures, films, videograms or the like,

c) delivers indecent or pornographic writings, pictures, films, videograms or the like to persons under 18 years of age,

d) possesses or imports pictures, films, videograms, or the like in which any person who is, must be considered to be or is presented as being under 16 years of age is shown in an indecent or pornographic manner.Additionally, if she's spreading her nude pics around, her parents are obviously not really performing the parental duty right. That's punishable. Look:

§ 219. Any person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who exposes any person belonging to his household to distress by being unwilling to perform his duty to provide support, or who by neglect, maltreatment, or similar conduct frequently or grossly violates his duties towards his spouse or children or any person belonging to his household or in his care who because of illness, age, or other circumstances is incapable of taking care of himself. If the felony results in death, or serious injury to body or health, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six years may be imposed.

Any person who misleads or incites another person to commit any of the acts referred to above shall be liable to the same penalty.Blackmail is also illegal. In some laws, it's illegal to circulate such defamatory things even without any blackmail connection and even if they are real (such as here). Her own actions in the defamatory department qualify for juvenile court or whatever equivalent exists in the place. Here:

§ 219. Any person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who exposes any person belonging to his household to distress by being unwilling to perform his duty to provide support, or who by neglect, maltreatment, or similar conduct frequently or grossly violates his duties towards his spouse or children or any person belonging to his household or in his care who because of illness, age, or other circumstances is incapable of taking care of himself. If the felony results in death, or serious injury to body or health, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six years may be imposed.

Any person who misleads or incites another person to commit any of the acts referred to above shall be liable to the same penalty.And:

§ 249.

1. No penalty pursuant to sections 246 and 247 shall be imposed if the allegation is proved to be true.

2. Even if the truth is proved as stated in subsection 1, the allegation is criminal if it is made without any respectable reason for doing so, or if it is otherwise unwarranted because of the form or manner in which it is made or for other reasons.Voila, even thruthful allegations are punishable if they lack a respectable reason for spreading around.

Well, criminal codes are pretty much the same anywhere on the continent, it seems. Of course, I'm assuming we're talking about a Norwegian forum. Quotes are for informative purpose - a translation is not normative. Here's the link: link (http://www.legislationline.org/upload/legislations/51/ec/c428fe3723f10dcbcf983ed59145.htm)

I suggest going not even to the cops but to the public prosecutor perhaps, if it's the same country you live in. If abroad, just find a way to inform the right authorities.

[ January 14, 2007, 00:38: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Ohh its not a norwegian siite\chatroom its an american one. And all the people I mentioned above are also americans.
I kind of threathened to spill my guts about it on the site, letting people know exactly whats going on there, but Igot met with cold shoulders and warnings not to do so........Its classic really. A bunch of people knowing full well something is wrong, but closing their ears and eyes to it.

I tell you what, bollocks to all of it pal. This is ALL one sicko situation, I would have no part of it. Leave all the paedophiles, perverts and saddos to their sick and twisted little 'internet lifes'. Get out of it, stay out and think yourself better for it. Bollocks to all that mate.

I did leave the chatroom after going on a drunken rant about it in october I think it was. I still pop into the site on occation though, just to see whats going on. I got loads of fond memories of the place, wich is why its nagging me so much that things went like they did.

I have to agree with BA on this. While the whole situation stinks to high hell, what are you going to do about it exactly? Stay out of the situation mate.

Yeah I did distance myself from it severely. But I still have a nagging feeling that I should have done more about it.
That people get away with things like that really bothers me. The guy didn`t even get a warning or anything like that.

Am I the only one who wonders why phone and cyber sex seem appealing to some people :confused: ...

If I was you - I wouldn't get any more involved with it. I would certainly not report it to anyone (unless you can get screwed over for not doing so). If people want to be dodgy like that - let them - it's not your concern and it's not really hurting anyone (well - not in any way that they really should see coming if they're distributing nude photos of themselves...).

IMO that situation is quite sick, no matter how good the site is I would never really be able to just relax knowing that stuff like that goes on there. If I were you I would just delete the bookmark and never go back, if only just to avoid any incrimination in whatever has/will happen.

Rawgrim, "phone sex" with a minor counts as lascivious conduct with a minor and therefore is open to a sexual exploitation charge.

Yes, it's maddening that the minor involved seems so willing to put herself in danger. But that's the point of having laws about these things - adolescents don't have well-developed judgment and act on impulse and are going through a necessary developmental stage of experimentation and defiance. So some of them need protection from their own foolish behavior.

If it's an Amrican site all kinds of bad consequences can occur to the adults involved. But I admit that there are so many chatrooms and so much sordid behavior in them that the odds against prosecution are probably good.

All the more reason for you to get out and stay out. I sympathize with your good memories. It's disappointing to have it spoiled for you by the behavior of these, ah, people, for lack of a polite term. But there it is: it's spoiled now, no matter what, and for your own protection you must stay away. American feds love to go overseas and nab people for headlines. Don't join the lineup.

duffin and BA are right, get out while you can, do not return - sites and people like this are the poison of the internet.

as for the girl though, sounds to me like she has some mental problem concerning her sexual over drive, if you do say anything i would suggest you tell her to seek professional help. it could be the situation where some past event has caused her to be like this, i know of women who have been abused as children and have turned out like this.

Yeah, stay away from that girl. Stay very far away. In fact give her somebody else to bother. Here, give her my phone number, so she can 'bother' me. I'll make sure all that pent up sexual energy is released in an orderly fashion...

But seriously, get out, stay out, keep transcripts if you are worried about being liable for anything but apart from that have nothing more to do with the site.

Although it's not common to find this type of thing happening it also isn't surprising, no matter how young a girl is. She will eventually discover there's nothing in this but I guess everyone has their own ways of having fun.

No constructive feedback on my part, just saying again what everyone is: stay away. kudos to you for trying to do something about this but I'd just stop going to the site. if the admins can't be bothered to do anything about it then they're probably not people you want to be chatting/posting with anyway. I find this disturbing :sick:

Disturbing is a word that springs to my mind as well.....

I would still drop the cops a line. Nothing wrong doing that if what people are doing is actually harmful to themselves or others.

Does the website have a privacy statement? If it does, the police can't really do anything without a warrent. And lets face it, you realy can't give them much evidence can you?

No real evidence no. Its mostly logs and stuff like that. Wich can be easily faked I think. So basically its word vs word more or less.

Logs can be faked, but e-mails can be forged. I can send you an e-mail from your own address unless you prefer to receive it from president@president.gov. Thing is, in my case it will be easy to detect. In some cases not. Any data to which people have easy access can be forged. There are, however, also ways to detect that. And the police will investigate everything (if the cops are doing the job right) and even such evidence that they can't use in courts will still help them in their work. It doesn't hurt you to try.

Does the website have a privacy statement? If it does, the police can't really do anything without a warrent. And lets face it, you realy can't give them much evidence can you? Depends where you live, I do not know about Norway but in Finland the police can very well search your entire house without a warrant. If the police see the situation as such that there's no time to wait for a court order they'll do it without and get it afterwards.

Simple advice: Let it go. Walk away. Do not look back. Find another website that you enjoy and spend your time there (such as SP).

You can turn you information over to authorities, but will need to find the correct jurisdiction (sometimes, local authorities will help with that). You really don't even know the girl's age (or if it's really a girl). There may have been no crime committed.

Once again, let it go. If you turn the information over to the authorities (which is really your only option now) do not ever go back to the website, as revmaf has said you do not want to be involved in any fallout. You may want to change passwords and log on names to prevent retribution.

Well thanks to everyone who posted on this, it really helped. Good to get confirmation that I`m not the nut here. How do one contact the feds anyway? Just out of curiosity. I wouldn`t know how to do it at all. But i still feel something must be done in this matter, it feels all wrong just letting this continue..........

http://www.cybercrime.gov/reporting.htm

^ 'How to report internet crime'