Lord, lately these boards seem to be filled with such powergaming posts that it makes my stomach turn. Edit your stats to 25, kill dragons with ease bacause your character's so buffed (read hacked) up, dump/edit characters and NPCs because a stat of 18 isn't high enough, have 10 slots for level 9 spells...

God, what on Earth started this whole trend? It's ridiculous. Like reading some freakin Diablo conversation.
"Yea, I got me a plate of the whale, king's sword of haste, two zodiac rings and a zodiac amulet, plus the stormshield and the royal circlet and 9999999 cash!"

(Ah kill me, who wasn't/isn't a power gamer in Diablo anyway) :p

But at least I'd think that people would play BG2 a bit differently since it isn't (just) about power gaming.
I don't know. I suppose the problem is that ShadowKeeper and cap removers are so easy to obtain and use that practically no one even bothers to play legit anymore. First obstacle on the road and whee, let's go set all our stats to 25 and give ourselves all of the best items from the game. Ha, now those thugs will never kill me again!

Or am I the only one detecting this constant PG mentality?

My advice to everyone who doesn't want to ruin the game for himself: At least play it through legit the first time. Go to the game options and lower the game difficulty if your really find a battle too hard. You can always set it back after you get out of the battle you're convinced you can't win.

Well, I for one feel that I explained my reasons for using the XP Cap remover (which in my opinion does not ruin the game) and my experiences with Shadowkeep (which I admitted I needed to rein in somewhat); namely, that I'm in it for the experience of the adventure, the puzzle solving, the character interaction with NPCs, etc. I don't "cheat" and use the really powerful spells (ie., Timestop) unless I've already failed a few times at "normal" battle pretty miserably. I didn't inflate any of my character's stats with Shadowkeep, just added a few items and a few admittedly powerful spells. Now, if I'm playing what is essentially a puzzle game, and I figure out how I'm supposed to solve the puzzle, but the game makes it unduly frustrating for me to put a piece in place, then the game isn't as fun for me anymore. It reminds me of the Jurassic Park game Tresspasser, in which gameplay consisted of ten minutes figuring out what you're supposed to do, and 2 days fighting the interface to get your onscreen avatar to do something as simple as stack three crates on top of one another. I'd rather be spending that time figuring out riddles to get past guardians or enjoying dialogue with NPCs or using mundane but effective tactics for dealing with tough, but beatable monsters, like Golems or even Umber Hulks and Mindflayers. But Liches that continually casts Timestop and unleash a flurry of tough defensive spells and then a bunch of spells that can kill your party outright...? It may be no fun for the Lich to be on the recieving end of that same tactic, but then again, the Lich isn't playing the game, now is it? So yeah, I'll reserve my use of the "cheating" spells until I feel I really need 'em, but I don't feel all that guilty about using 'em, either. I played all the way through BG 1 without any cheats, and I honestly think it would have been more fun if I had used a few here and there just to get past sticking points. For me, it doesn't ruin the game at all. It is easy to abuse, however, so even now I'm considering limiting my ability to utilize those spells even more to prevent temptation from taking over.

Ultimately for me it comes down to my preferred style of gameplay. I gave my character some aces in the hole, so to speak, because it's either that, or I just continue to reload games after losing nearly impossible battles until I win anyway, isn't it? How true to roleplaying is it when you just keep reloading a game over and over when you die? I don't remember that being much of an option when I used to play the game with friends back in the day; you die, you actually go back and either start with a new character or you hoped that your companions would be able to resurrect you, but it wasn't "OK, let's try this battle again and again till you win," unless your DM just didn't care anyway, in which case, why bother with the fights at all anyway?

On the other hand, for some people this game is their ideal version of strategic squad-based battle, and the tough battles are the true highlights of the game. I'm sure that for these folks, using the cheats is anathema, and rightly so. I'm just not one of those people.

Wow, good point of view from both sides! Personally I don't use any cheats. It does make the game more frustrating sometimes and I have thought about using them from time to time, but then I remember Diablo and I cringe... Cheating ruined that game for me. Personally I love finding new treasures and developing my characters, just giving them what they need is too easy and takes all that fun out of the game, although it would be nice to have an ace in the hole when you really need it!

By the way, my latest tactic for using Timestop is working out quite well as far as play balance goes, relatively speaking. I've set Timestop as my contingency spell when my character gets low on hit points; it enables me to try to salvage a fight gone bad without reloading and starting over, and it lessens the temptation to use the spell right away because I know it'll be there if things get to the point where I'd probably end up reloading soon anyway.

I have never used a cheat and never will, but I can see those that have already finished the game using them just to be really badass and kick the crap out of everything... Kinda like a little revenge: "Ha! You're not so tough THIS time are ya!" :)

But, I have noticed that those who think they have to cheat in order to win are merely impatient; they feel that if they come across a monster, they must kill it now rather than come back to it later when they themselves are more powerful.

Cuckoo - there isn't a Lich in a "normal" game that you have to defeat to get to the end, and there is only one Dragon that you must kill. If you wait until later in the game to attack these kinds of monsters, then you can survive their assault (a Lich much more easily than a Dragon IMO), and spells that kill you outright will fail most of the time. Part of the "riddle" to get past a guardian is figuring out when to attempt it, and what its weaknesses are.

oh oh i am a true role player. well when it comes to BG, BG2, and IWD at least. i don't play Diablo 1 or 2 or Nox ect. because those are power games. there is no role playing involed in those games. why are they even in the role playing section at the store???


examples; when i play an evil character in either of the 3 games i play, i steal and kill people in the game that piss me off ect. all the things that evil chararters would do. now why did i do the Unseeing Eye quest for the church while playing an evil Fighter/Thief . well i wanted to see what goodies i could find, and wanted to check out Keldorn in action. after i finished that i got suckered into to Artist Quest for the church... Damn what was i thinking. well when i finaly took the fake ore back to the artist and he found out it was fake, i went back and killed the ore merchant because she ripped me off and my evil thief was pissed off that he had done something good. he had to redeem himself so to speak.

if i play a good character, i do not steal a thing, not even something in a barrel or crate that is outside. my Lawful Good priestess wouldn't have it. as for killing innocent people, she isn't down with that either. Korgan you have been a bad boy, your out of my party. as a matter of fact, Korgan since you are so evil, i think i will leave you in these spider infested tombs where you belong.

now i have to admit i have used cheats to gain certain items in BG, but only once and i quit that game and started a new one because playing powerful characters takes away from the challenge. i now have the XP Cap remover in BG2 to see how many levels my Bard can gain before i finish the game, but it is my 3rd time through the game, and my 1st time cheating plus i upped the difficulty level as well to compinsate for my cheating ways.

i have never said this before, and will only say it once. you can play a game any way you want, you paid for it, but if want to Power Game, stick to Diablo and Nox, thats what they are created for, Power Gaming.

[This message has been edited by Wingfoot (edited December 27, 2000).]

Now Wingfoot, I've got to disagree with you about Diablo and Nox being meant for powergaming. In Diablo and Nox, the focus is entirely on battle; cheating in battle in that context seems a lot worse to me than cheating in a more fully realized RPG setting. See, the point I was trying to make is that a full-featured RPG isn't necessarily focused on fighting. It can be, if that's the way you prefer to play, but it's about trying to roleplay. The examples you gave of having your characters stay true to their alignment is a perfect example of what I think good roleplaying is about in a CRPG. I think that disregarding alignment and racial enemies and even such things as figuring on appropriate responses to situations based on ability scores is WAY more integral to the CRPG experience than how quickly you win fights.

pionts taken and i agree to some degree, but i still don't see how Diablo's and Nox can be considered RPGs.

I think RPG on computers in the catchall for games where your skills improve with experience...

If you wan't to cheat, go ahead and effing cheat. Jest DON'T do it on multiplayer coz it does my head in.

I agree with Tal, too many Power Gamers. I don't believe that we are in any position to judge Power Gamers in general, but when they start bragging their cheating or bashing other people because they use their original stat roll, they bring the persecution on themselves. If they would just keep quiet and stay in their little cheating rat-hole, I wouldn't mind. I too played DII multiplayer for a short while and was disgusted by the bragging that made up most of the chat. IMO, Power Gaming is the exact opposite of role-playing.

This may seem to contradict my earlier statements regarding the XP cap remover, but I believe in that I am justified. It's like saying your character simply stops learning.
I don't import any characters and play over again with a lev 17+ character, so what is the harm if I am 1 level higher than the cap when I reach the end?

NEways, lay off the Power Gaming, or at least the bragging you Power Gamers need to feel tingly inside. And if you get the chance, play some real D&D. Try Power Gaming when the DM is human, not a manipulable save-game file.

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited December 27, 2000).]

I Role play D&D and Im a dual class level 10 True Kensai (Not the Wimmpy Class in BG2) and Level 18 Mage. I started from level zero and it took me just over one year to get this high.

When fighting liches in True D&D you can't kill them unless to destroy their soul jar. But I can kill any monster with one level nine Wish spells.

The wish would be, I wish that will drop dead in the next second from the present time onwards. This is legit in D&D but in BG 2, the game is too restricted. Almost every powerful mage you go up against in the game are casting level 9 spells. But you can't cast them because you need to be level 18 with intelligence of 18. But I have an intelligence of 18 and can only go up to level 17, therefore no level 9 spells for you.

The point is, if this was true D&D then their be a lot less restrictions to the game, like the stupid Exp cap. In real D&D you can be a level 99 mage, it may take you 20 years to get that high.

IMHO

D&D was never meant to used in this UNIMAGINITIVE WAY! D&D was thought up to allow you freedom yes... but not like that.

To be honest you must have a pretty pantz DM if he lets you use spells in that way!

And only VERY sad people get mages over about level 30-40...

cummon you are getting more powerful than Elminster at that stage.

You must play loads just to have your character that powerful. In that respect i do admire you... but the way you play with that charcacter is a different story......

And all this talk about liches spoiling the game...
That ridiculous. There are what? 3 or 4 in the entire game and all of them optional. No one forces you to combat them so saying that liches made you start cheating is silly.

Shadow Keeper has got its uses though - the game is not perfect, and there are a lot of bugs in it. The only time i myself have used it is to replace Nalia's D'arnise signet ring which got taken by a nishruu, which i'm sure isn't supposed to happen.
Even so, whoever is playing the game has just forked out 30 quid (or whatever in America), unless it is a copy (in which case they should be hunted down and shot :D), so if they want to 'ruin the game' by useing shadow keeper or the xp cap remover, they should be allowed to without all this flak you're giving them.
That is, unless they come on the sorcerer forum and start bragging about how they killed the red dragon with a single hit or something as they have buffed up theyre char. They should also be hunted down and shot :D
My point is tho, leave them alone unless they deserve it.

hey Orgrim: a level 10 fighter AND 18 mage, right? In ONE year???????????? For heaven's sake, what is your GM doing??? Throwing XP all around like confetti, like a 1.000.000XP for bringing up the bucket in the well? Does your mage had a wish-spell alright???? This is insane, unplayable...
*calming down a bit*
I for myself played P&P for several years, had 2 chars (mage and priest) and hardly was able to bring them up to level 10. We were playing regulary including all the TRUE roleplaying stuff (want example? our bard performed his tales and plays in reality, also meaning in real-time, so we often just sat and listened for a while...and not forced by GM but on his own will just for the fun of it). It was pure fun and the best rpg-experience ever had. The char's levels and stuff they had were not as important as the settings, the riddles, the gripping stories, funny and nasty NPC's we met...

...I have to say, that I really aknowledge Orgrim as a real P&P roleplayer with an asskickin' char but I just realize, that we both know and practice two different kinds of roleplaying...

The Experience you get depends on how often you play the game and the number of quest you have completed. I been to Ice Wind Dale, Water Deep, Under Mountain, Under Dark, Ruins of Myth Dranor and many other places. I play D&D almost every day for almost 4 hours a day with my Brothers. Most of the time my DM have taken a few artifacts off my party to make the game more difficult.

Also who says you can't become better mage than Elmister?

I remember Edwin in BG 1 saying "Elmister this, Elmister that. Give me 2000 years and a pointy hat and I kick his ass".

I think I start playing D&D third Edition in the begining of the new year.

I feel a need to say this, so here goes. Let the powergamers powergame all they want. Again, it is their gaming experience. Why do people feel the need to put others down.
That said, such a gamer should never defend their actions in BG2 by saying they need to cheat. Why in the world do you *need* to cheat, unless you are simply no good at the game. Every battle is winable in the game under normal circumstances with normal character progression. Every litch, dragon, mage, demon, etc. is beatable under normal game circumstances with characters allowable by the game. There shouldn't be a situation where you just constantly have to reload. And is it any more RPGish to do things you shouldn't be able to do to win than to reload? Very flawed arguments.
The argument that people are making about characters no longer learning is also flawed. Sure, you can do anything in P&P(I assume), but that is an unlimited environment. BG2 is, in a sense, a small piece of that environment. It is a limited experience, hence the cap. So what if other mages can cast level 9 spells. I'm sure you will be able to in the expansion. Point being it's taking away part of the challenge when you remove the cap. The game needed to be put together in a way that people could beat the game without doing every single quest to get all the experience points, so that you could get to the end without doing every quest and still get the max experience points. The cap has other obvious uses as well, such as allowing you to pick up characters later in the game.
Shadow keeper has only a few legit uses. If you have lost an item and need it back for some reason or another to finish the game. It's also nice to use to test out characters to see what they will play like. And it's useful to change characters in mid game(please do not read in up their stats experience-I mean get a completely different character). And let's face it, the cap remover is a cheater's tool, by cheaters, for cheaters. If your at piece with that, so be it. But don't defend your actions as if their is some logical or needful reason to us it.

Sorry, but I'm going to defend the X cap remover anyway. By the beginning of the fourht chapter, Minsc had already reached the cap. No, I have never used Shadowkeep to add any XP to any character in the game; I simply took on every quest that came along, and then I had poor Minsc hitting the ceiling with quite a ways to go. I thought that sucked. My own character isn't above level 12 yet, but when you mess with Minsc...

And a word about the Liches....just to clarify that I never said that I either needed to use SK to beat them or that I thought they were essential to fight to complete the game. I did in fact beat the first Lich using "standard" BG rules, but it was formulaic and tedious, not fun, when I did so.

Well this is interesting...
How on Fearun did you manage to cap Minsc while you are still only at level 12?!
The game hands out XP equally to all in your party.
And Cuckoo, who said fighting liches is supposed to be fun? They're probably the toughest monsters in the game besides dragons, not some gnolls your mage can handle 20 alone.
They've been enjoying their lichdom for centuries, probably killing hundreds before you in the process, if they dared to disturb their resting places.
Not to mention that liches are MUCH easier to beat in Baldur's Gate II still, than they're supposed to be. You just whack em till they're dead and that's it. In real ad&d you'd have to find their phylactery and destroy it if you want to kill them permantely. Unless you do that, you can never truly kill them. Not to mention than no lich would make his tomb in a 2x2x1m hole in the wall. They'd have tombs the size of one level of Durlag's Tower at least, and littered with magical and ordinary traps, plus some undead monsters to watch over them.
ALL THAT before you could even get to them.

So you see, despite the fact that liches are relatively easy to beat in BG2 (compared to how powerful they SHOULD be) most people playing without cheating still find them VERY hard to beat.

Saying that killing liches isn't fun sounds a bit weird after that, doesn't it?

I was at level twelve as a dual Mage/Theif when Minsc hit his XP cap...I started out BG2 with a newly created character. Don't know how much of a difference all of that makes, only that The total XP that I had actually accumulated was enough to bump up Minsc a full level after I took the XP cap off.

Now, let me explain to you what I mean when I say that fighting the liches in the game was not fun. I'm not saying that the challenge of a good battle is not fun; they are. And if I were playing the real deal with some friends and a DM, it would absolutely rock to take on some of these tougher monsters and quests, because the options are wide open as to how you handle things. Depending on your DM, you can do anything from recruiting help to trying to get a special weapon made, or trying to use a variety of different tactics. When you go up against a lich in BG2, however, your choices are limited, and IMO, it starts to resemble Diablo more than anything. Yes, I use the pause feature to assign commands and so forth, but eventually it becomes a real-time combat mess. Oftentimes, even with party AI on, the characters end up just standing there after they dispatch one enemy while another one is sllicing away at their backs. I have to confess that I really despise real-time combat when controlling a party of characters. In terms of combat, the Wizardy style or even the Realms of Arkania style of party combat is much more to my liking. Guess I'm old-school and prefer the turn based style. But then, if the enemies are pretty weak, like kobolds or gibberlings, I don't mind the real-time combat, because it can be over quickly. Guess I shouldn't complain, then.

I think BG2 is a great game, and as far as any game that has used the D&D license, it is definitely the best. My favorite CRPG, however, even with the outdated graphics and all of its shortcomings, was Daggerfall. The completely open-ended game allowed you complete freedom to do what you wanted, go and do whatever you pleased...you had a huge world to explore, and you had a main story line that you could follow or disregard as you willed. You could make your living as a thief and go from town to town, you could join guilds and go on quests, you could make spells, you even had the chance to deal with the effects of lycanthropy or vampirism and could actually roleplay through that situation as you chose. You could play pretty much indefinitely, and I did. Give me a game with as much flexibility as Daggerfall with as well-written a series of quests as BG2, and I'd never need to buy anything more than add-ons and graphics updates.

I don't know why I wandered into that little rant...guess I'm just wanting more options to be available to me when I'm in a CRPG.

Don't we all... And a trek-like holodeck to play d&d in. Wouldn't it be cool if you could have a computer to simulate actual spell hurling and such?
Damn, I wish we were 100 years in the future. I bet that by then, people will have something like that available for sure. True virtual reality. Imagine the amount of addiction something like that would cause among role-players. ;)
Who'd want to leave his little fantasy world where you can exercise your wildest dreams...

first: IMO most people (partially including me for using the XPcap-remover) in CRPGs cheat just because they can. It's the forbidden fruit thing along with curiosity and the temptation of crossing boundaries set by others, whoever they are. There's no control like in P&P (not that I like control that much). I remember running around in the 'Kenku-level' of Eye Of The Beholder-CRPG for hours just to gain some more experience (from respawning monsters), I consider this cheating. Every GM would rip your head off when you start doing such crap as for using such stupid (in P&P terms) 'strategies' as "dragons and cloudkill" :mad: I've read on this and other M'boards. Again: no control. Don't get me wrong: If there's one thing about P&P-rpgs it's the freedom of doing things like you want to, but always conform to some basic rules.

second: Just like in P&P and even in real life there are and will be always things too hard to obtain, goals too high to achieve for you at this 'level'. It doesn't need a lot of WIS ;) to realize this. IN CRPG it seems to always be now or never, but in P&P and real life you could always try later when you've grown in knowledge or wits or made preparations (good example: exams, there's always learning or cheating, but for one of 'em there's a risk in it, which isn't in CRPGing. Try imagine this: Somebody starts cheating, the computer realizes this and crashes or starts deinstalling the game...fun eh? (I remember Ultima Underworld 2 ruining the end sequence with the message: You've cheated!...ups!)

third: I know, many people don't have time for P&P, don't find people with same interests or simply don't like P&P at all, namely most 'computer'gamers. But I realize, that most people think playing CRPGs is like roleplaying. I'm sad saying this, but it's not at all. plz no dicussion on this one, stick to the topic...

To end my case it's left to say that I'm also sad to mention that I consider the import-option of Neverwinter Nights a VERY BIG MISTAKE by Bioware...it won't be long till we have Diablo on Fearun :(

You know what burns me up more than all the hacked characters in the world? I have read on boards things like: "My reputation got too high, so I had to go kill an innocent, because I'm having a romance with Viconia, and I don't want her to leave." And the fool is playing a Paladin! That is, to me more against role-playing than all the XP cap removers, and hacked characters put together. And no one flames these people! I say, do what you want in a single player game, as long as you don't ruin other's multi-player games with your hacked characters.

Tal et al, where do you stand on reloading? In PnP, NWN and real life there ain't no reloads, but how many people played 'iron man' so if an NPC dies they stay dead? I consider myself to be a roleplayer (with a small r) but confess to reloading as many as 3 times in some encounters.

Elenias, don't worry, if I understand correctly the official 'vaulted' characters will be busted back to 1st level. There's even talk about a 'point buy' system that would make it difficult to have any stat over 15!
Shudder!

I re-load sometimes but there's a few conditions on it for me. I will only re-load if *all* my characters die OR if one of my characters died behind a door, table, etc. where I can't get to their bodies... you know, all you get is a highlight of the door and you can't pick up any of the stuff they dropped. I think that's fair.

Mithrilhammer

Heh, heh... How about if only the protagonist dies? ;)

It depends. If he/she dies being gang mauled by beholders while the rest of the party get lost on the route there, yeah I'll reload.
It can be annoying creating a really good 'hardcore' (TM Diablo2) character and watching he/she die in a ridiculous situation, but like you say, play it how you want.

BTW: Surely your party members would be intellegant enough to cart you down to a temple and ressurrect you wouldn't they?

heh...
Alright Blackthorne, I'll grant ya that one :D

Erran, well since BG2 is a game where you're risking your neck all the time I reload sometimes too.
But definitely not if one of my characters dies. I have two clerics in the party and they can both raise or resurrect, so what's the problem I say? If you don't have it memorized, sleep and memorize it then and raise the corpse later. It's not like it's going anywhere. ;)
And when I killed my first dragon (who killed 3 of my party members in the process) I didn't reload either. It was a fair fight.

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited December 29, 2000).]

yeah, no need to reload. after a battle with Firkrag only 2 of 6 my person party was left standing, my Blade and Keldorn. i happened to have a Wand of Ressurection on me which worked well on all the deceased but Mazzy because she was splatered into little chucks. well i just went on with out her even though i had planned on keeping her. too bad.

i also lost Imoen to a backstab of 106 damage towards the end of one game, and i went on without her as well. no need to reload.

that brings up the point of reloading after a low Hit Point roll upon a level up. if i get a low role, i stick with it as i would in PnP. i did restart a game 3 times when i was playing a Blade because my starting hit point rolls were in the lower 30's. thats the only time i have reloaded.

I left Firkragg till chapter six when I got out of the under dark and my party was all around level 16-17. I told Firkragg that I will end his menace and then he attacked me killing Mazzy with one breath weapon, I must of drink about 15 healing poitions each for every one of my party members. Only me and Minsc was left and Firkragg was near death. Minsc managed to do a critical hit which killed him. I could not ressurect any of my fallen commrades, they were eaten or something like that. So I went and picked up Edwin, Viconia, Korgan and Imoen. They where all at level 12-13, but still rock after I gave them all the magical Items that was around.

How many of you went with your first set of rolls for ability scores? How many didn't adjust them at all? How many restarted the game upon dying with a new character?

There is a difference between using functionality provided by the game and using 3rd party editors/tools to change the game in ways not provided for by the game developers.

I think there is a big difference between re-loading the game and cheating.
To start with I don't cheat in RPGs. It just takes the fun out of it. I want a challenge and a sense of accomplishment when I finally win.
If I'm in a fight and my party is killed off, usually "I" die and the game ends. That's why you have a save option.
As far as adjusting my stats during character creation it's called 'arrange to taste'. Yes I rolled three time and took the best set and arranged them. I don't think that cheating. Since I played the entire game with those stats and the character I think I could re-role that 7 ST I got the first time for a fighter. Let's be reasonable.
Unfortunately, no computre RPG can give you the same RP opertunities as real table top, so play by the rules, don't be a twink and enjoy the game.

Technically, it's almost as easy to "cheat" (and I've seen it doen more often than not) in a P n P RPG as it is in a CRPG. To me, the difference is whether the cheat enhances the fun for whoever is playing it or not. You get all misty-eyed over having the last member of your party standing victorious over the body of a dragon, while your companians' body parts are strewn around the cavern floor, in need of resurrection? Fine, more power to ya, enjoy yourself. If you like to solve puzzles and interact with characters and figure out plots, but think that battle is just a necessary evil, then use whatever you think you have to to make the game as fun for you as possible. Myself, I like to give myself a bit of an edge, especailly since if my character dies, I have to reload, but if the other characters die, I can just play on and resurrect them. My character still dies, I didn't boost any ability scores or AC or THACO or hit points or artificially add XP; but then again, I also often send in my PC alone against a lot of tough monsters as well.

You know what? It's useless for me to try to defend how I'm choosing to play the game. I know the response is likely to be "you're cheating yourself out of the fun of the game," or something like that, and my response will be something like, "I've played the game before without cheats and I'm having more fun this way," and it'll go back and forth. No one's going to win this argument. I guess it wasn't really meant to be an arguement to begin with; it was just someone complaining about so-called POWER GAMERS. Whatever. You all win. I'm a horrible person who has used Shadow Keeper and removed the XP cap, and you can all pity me for making the game less fun for you, if you were the one playing my game.

OK, I know that was pedantic at best, but someone else said in another thread, it's just a friggin' game! Not only that, but in every post that I've read that had someone "POWER GAMING", it wasn't a multiplayer game either, so what difference does it make to you if someone's using a cheat or not? Hell, they come to message boards like this and ask where things are and how to beat things and so forth, they can buy the cheater's guides or even access the same info online, but where is the flak for those people? Why not give them a load of crap when they ask where they can find the parts of Crom Faeyr and just tell them "keep looking, haha"? Some people here become indignant and raze POWER GAMERS and so forth, and they treat the people they are posting these slams against like crap for something that doesn't affect anyone other than the person playing the game that way. I think that's pretty crappy. Now, some of you have been pretty nice about it, and just say, "I think you're really missing out if you don't at least try to play the game without using editors," and that's great. I'm talking about the people that come in sounding like they think their crap doesn't stink and give people hell because they choose to play the game in a different way than they do. That makes me sick a lot more than whether or not someone's cheating in a damned computer game.

In a phrase: Bollocks to it.
A computer can't randomly generate numbers (so i hear) so I think that re-rolling stats is absolutely fine. To Play BGII or whatever like you play a Pnp takes a lot of guts, so I admire the people who do that.

I personally think that if I'm polaying the way the developer intended, I'm alright. Job's a good'un.

No, a computer cannot generate a random number. Nothing can generate a random number. Rolling a d6 does not produce a number between 1-6 at exactly equal frequency. The die might be rounded slightly on one corner, the orientation of the die, the power with which it is thrown, and the landing surface have already decided the outcome. Thus, nature never yields a TRUE random number. Random number generators usually use the number of milli-seconds past midnight%Range to determine the number.

This being said, how can the fact that a computer cant generate random numbers justify re-rolling? NOTHING can generate real random numbers, but a RNG comes just as statistically close as dice.

Amon-Ra

What I mean is, you'll never get stats of, say all 9s, because there is some slight thought process behind it. :)

Nox and Diablo...they are not power games.
Unless you make them.
I enjoy Diablo because of the music and story. While killing monsters you can imagine
what your characther might say or what
he will answer to the townsfolk although
it's still not the same as BG.
I must admit...it's a bit boring it only
takes place in a Dungeon.
Nox is a good game too.
Whether it is role-play or not is all about
your imagination. But most people I know
only play Diablo to kill things.
When they saw BG they whined:
"It's just like Diablo! Nothing original!
Stolen ideas!"
When they actually played it:
"Too much text! There was not THAT much text
in Diablo!" " The fights suck! It's cheating
to pause the game! Diablo is more realistic!" " The rules suck! When I take off
their armour their armour class goes up!"
Besides that they play the game with lvl.
99 charcathers. And they call me a geek
just because I am a role-player!

Reroling:
one justification for rerolling is that you have to choose your class before your rolling stats

rerolling until you got summed stats of 90 or more probably takes a lot of fun out of the game; you never need to really think about taktics, so you newer devellop any.


Reloading:
Roleplayingwise I think redoing a fight 10 times is worse than 'cloudkill on dragons' stile taktics. But it sure is lots more fun. But I do try to be conservative on my NPCs and prefer a solidly murderous taktic (e.g. ranged weapons, word of death or other high-level non-contact spells) to one that is more heroic (move in and hack) but only works if the dragon doesn't use wing buffets, breath, ... (i.e. works only by sheer luck).

Paladins:
Paladins are humans! They can deviate from their chosen paths at times. (if all historic knights had been purely goody goods their memory wouldn't have survived till today).
Paladins are leaders (today you would call them politicians). So they should be entiteled the same amount of bigotry you allow on any politicioan you still vote for (for me thats a lot, but then I don't play paladins).

"Paladins are humans! They can deviate from their chosen paths at times. (if all historic knights had been purely goody goods their memory wouldn't have survived till today)."

You are wrong! You and I are humans. We devviate from our chosen paths at times. We are not pure goody goodies. But when we die we will be forgotten.

People are remembered for the things that set them out from the rest. It is the Paladin's moral character that sets him apart. The fact that he strives to be the epitome of good. A Paladin with an ingrained flaw or prejudice would likely not die a Paladin as it will cost him greatly one day. Bigotry is a flaw which affects judgement, something Paladins should be good at.

A politician is not a Paladin, and Paladin is not just a leader. A knight is also not a Paldin. A knight is just a fighter. Neither is a samurai a Paladin, no matter what ideals you say these historic people have.

Thus, Paladins do not exist outside of imagination. If you cannot strive to take the strengths with the weaknesses, just play a souped up fighter with many powerful abilities and items. But don't call him a Paladin.

That's like calling yourself a Navy SEAL or SAS guy without the qualifications.

I believe you are a slight bit off. Paladins by there very nature tend to be of great and true virtue. However, just as a cleric can lose his way (Adon, anyone?) a paladin can strike out and do something in malice or passion. Such things commonly result in Ex-Paladins, or in dire cases (as a Paladin becoming a vampire) Anti-Paladins/Blackguards. And these are but the extremes.

Imagine if in their haughty nature a Paladin curses at a harlot and reprimands her for her behavior. If she spits in his face and he raises his hand and smacks her a good one, has he lost his Paladin way? Will he be disgraced and shamed forever? Will his diety refuse to grant him the powers he has come to know and trust as a Paladin? Simple answer: no. He will repent and ask for forgiveness from his diety, and the people would eventually forget. He will eventually die, and when he is remembered, he will be remembered for rescuing a maiden and her children from a fire, defending the town from an orcish invasion, and journeying off to slay a chimera who had been preying on trade routes. As with many great people, Paladins will be remembered for their good accomplishments, and their bad will be purposefully forgotten. His demeanor will be remembered as to his greatness, his courage, his deeds, his loyalty, and not the occasional slip or straying from duty. Such things are left between the Paladin and his god.

Amon-Ra

Bah! Stupid topic this is. it all comes down to this: it's your game and you play it your way. If some 'powergamer' boasts about his level 99 character, you snigger and shake your head while laughing about how pathetic he is TO YOURSELF. I, for one, am often in no mood to listen to self-righteous arses rant about 'role-playing'. And paladins...no matter how good natured they are, it will not save them from the wrath of my katana, those incarnations of Bigotry made into canned food.

Go play some Diablo. It does wonders for you over-inflated ego and delusional lust for power-gaming. Enjoy! But do not tread a realm created for role-playing and think that role-playing is not to be expected. Self-righteous? You remind me of the ignorant freaks who think the internet should be for everyone: pr0n should be removed because kids might see it. Gamecopyworld and Napster should be removed because they can POSSIBLY infringe on copyrights. Screw them. The internet was a compilation to allow for the access and swapping of corporate and private files. The pioneers and early 'hackers' during the BBS era were driven off by greedy corporations and ignorant people who wanted to use it for something it wasn't made for: marketing. Is it not human nature to oppose the misuse of something you are a member of? Does the National Rifle Association condone the violence of drive-by shootings? If nothing else, it makes them look bad in the eyes of the ignorant (AKA: the masses)

In summary: D&D and RPG's have become an elitist world because too many morons were screwing it up. You can't be a track star if you aren't fast, and you can't be an actor if you can't act (most of the time). RPG's don't have such safeguards. Maybe I'm way off base in saying this, but: RPG's were created to RP. Is that not obvious? Thus if you want to take it and do something it wasn't intended for, don't brag about your abuse and expect to recieve commendations from others.

I am in every way an elitist, by nature of sheer pragmatism, and so are you, Shura. Admit it or not, simply by your last post you have demonstrated how you feel you need not pay heed to others because you are in the right. You are just as self-righteous as those you condemn.

Amon-Ra

Piss off. I never expected any commendations for my style of playing. And neither should you get any for yours. It just pisses me off that you feel that you have the right to judge your style superior. And drive-by shootings? Some people just deserve em. Internet's for everyone cos everyone has to experience the evil things in the world someday. And can't stand the pressure from the big corps? Get the hell out. As for Napster and their kind, whether or not they should be allowed to exist depends on their ability to win their lawsuits. Sad, but this is the system America is based on. What is legal is right. For crying out loud this is only a bloody game and people come here to swap strategies or tales about their gaming experiences. Bastards who flame others and insist others following them are not needed. Being the avid D&D freak that you are, I shall now leave you to fantasise about your enchanted sword while living in your mother's basement. There's a difference between 'gamer' and 'geek'. I guess you're more of the latter.

Well in my opinion you can power-game all
you wan't so long as this does not destroy
the fun for other gamers. I have seen lots of "munchkins" that fit in because they DO
game to get the most powerfull characther
possible but this is ok if it doesn't mean
everyone else is cannon-fodder. I played a
game with someone that charmed my figther,
took his valuables and send him into the
jaws of death. I guess this was to "stock
up" for his next game with his regular group. But I really couldn't get angry.
Just a game. But is was kind of boring to sit there while HE played MY characther.

The only thing I object to is those who inflict hacked characters in multi player. Actually, the only "role-playing" in BG is playing according to your alignment. You can do that as easily with a superman, as with a wimp. They have the right idea in Neverwinter Nights with the character vault, to keep hacked characters out of multi player games. In single player, do what you want.

I just come back from holidays, so firstly Happy New Year, Century, Millenium to all :).

Then, this thread is really interesting. I want to do these comments :

1/ You bought the game, so you can do whatever you want with it, cheat and hack if you want, it's YOUR game, it's YOUR way to find fun. No problem. Just, don't destroy the fun of other people in multi-player games.

2/ Reload : yes I use the reload option quite often, because I like to try different strategies to find a solution to a problem. And, I'm curious, so I wanted to test all the limited wishes possibilities, wand of wonders, book of infinite spells...

3/ Reroll : well, I play RPG since 1983, and I have a LOT of different characters, from CE to LG alignment, from Humans to Dwarves, from pure Fighters to pure Wizards. When, I rolled bad dices, I threw the paper away and rolled again if the DM accepted. No one here used the wondefull 'Central Casting' book to generate really funny backgrounds ?? Ah ah some dices were very annoying for some of my characters, but some hindrances are really fun to play, hehe :D.

4/ Amon-Ra, I must disagree, you can find random in Nature, at the quantic level. Soon, hmmm... in few decades, you will find quantic computers that can generate true random series.

5/ During these holidays, I played with a solo high-level Sorcerer (imported from a previous BG2 game), too easy and boring, I didn't finnish that game. So, I began a solo new Monk, interesting but really hard in the beginning.

6/ Ressurection : I never used that spell, nor in P&P games. If I'm a DM, I assume that a dead character IS dead and cannot be revived. Well, it's my point of view. As for wishes, I guess in 17 years of P&P play, I only used 2 wishes (on a ring), no more, and I never used Time Stop. My high level character is a 17th Bladesinger, played for several years.

Well, I guess that's all for the moment :).

It all comes down to this: It's your game and you play it your way. If some 'roleplayer' boasts about how perfectly he roleplays his character, you snigger and shake your head while laughing about how pathetic he is TO YOURSELF. I, for one, am often in no mood to listen to self-righteous arses rant about 'power-gaming'.

Ah. Remember the good 'ol days when we all were posting about Irenicus' Dungeon?

*sighs*

Syl...

Rasalgethi, concerning the resurection I found an interesting comment in the 3E rules:
When you go below 0 hps you are dying and have to make saving throws against death every hour. You are lying on the floor and can't do anything. You don't heal yourself, but you can be healed.

I like this because the idea of fighting with full power upto the last blooddrop seems a bit ridiculous to me. Having an intermediate state seems to be a good solution. And while BGII certainly does not behave according to this model, I think its near enough.

Sorl, I agree with you, I don't know about 3E rules, but before when a character reaches 0 HP, he falls unconscious and he loses 1 HP every round (yes) until he/she is healed. If the character reaches -10 HP, he/she dies definitely.

I guess, like you, it is important to have this intermediate state, because yes, it is an aberration for most of characters to fight to death every time (except for Berserker, some Paladins, some Clerics...). In certain circumstances, I'd flee a fight or surrender if I feel too bad.

And for massive damages, disintegration, death spells... I don't accept resurection if I'm the DM. Well, and yes, I lost several characters as a player with these rules, hehe.

Well, Shura, I must once again applaud your amazing arguing skill. I mean, you start off with an insult, put words in my mouth (did i say i wanted commendation?), then proceed to make ignorant comments with no REAL knowledge of any sort. Bravo! Oh! But we aren't done yet! Then you begin a string of personal attacks in which you show you have little to no argument yourself and must resort to calling names(how old ARE you? I thought I was young...). You conclude this AMAZING defense by calling me a geek. Ouch! My poor, low self-esteem has just been ravaged by your superior intelect and self-righteousness. I am a geek and a nerd. This is all too true. Also, I earn $18 an hour as a systems administrator and haven't even graduated from high-school yet. (I'm 16). So if I live in my parent's basement, that would be a little wierd. Oh, and, I wouldn't have to fantasiZe (notice the z?) about a sword, as I am the DM.

I'm impressed. And I'm sorry to have taken up good board space by provoking such a worthwhile argument.

Amon-Ra

Speaking about role playing, or lack thereof, I just read in another forum some guy wanting to finish the human skin armor, so Viconia can wear it. And he's playing a Chaotic Good Ranger! I wish that Rangers and Paladins would become fallen when their players do some blatant, knowing, evil act, no matter what their reputation is. No one flames these people for lack of "role-playing", and I've read many similar posts from players of Paladins and Rangers.

Crazy J: LOL. That guy was probably only playing BG as a break from Quake 3.

OK, we've heard the good, the bad and the neutral attitudes to this topic.
I think it has lived long enough for everyone to make their own conclusions about it.

Just for the records, I stick with Amon-Ra. His arguments are valid. If someone feels like I cut this topic in mid-swing, start a continuation as a new topic. Otherwise, we had enough of bashing both powergamers and true role players for a while, I think.