What is this THING we call "cheese?"
Is it something you eat?
Evidently not.

Evidence points to a mysterious state that exists in between "exploits" and "cheating" (which should be, and are discussed at length in other places). The unique trait of this state, is that it appears to be perfectly legal within the game's guidelines, and was, in fact, indended to be used. Yet it still bears a seemingly negative trait, which is ambiguously labeled: cheese...

In an effort to help people unfamiliar with this thing... this cheese.... I've made a list of things deemed unacceptable by the denizens of this board.

Please by all means, I encourage each and every one of you to contribute anything, and everything that I have missed, and I will miss something.

In no particular order of importance, I herebye present:

ArtEChoke's Irate 'Cheese' list

1. Use of a monk's Quivering Palm ability.
2. Use of a monk's Stunning Blow ability.
3. Use of a monk.
4. The use of Cloudkill, to in fact, kill something.
5. The use of Magic Resistance, or Reduce Resistance.
6. The use of Finger of Death spell.
5. Use of a thief's set trap ability.
6. Use of a thief's backstab ability.
7. Use of a thief.
8. Summoning monsters to delay a monster from eating your party.
9. Summoning monsters to kill enemies.
10. Summoning monsters.
11. Use of any magic whatsoever.
12. Use of any stragtegy other than charging headlong into combat.
13. Use of any spells, summoned monsters, or special abilities against a dragon.
14. Use of the bonus merchants (although we are currently spending millions in research, in an attempt to determine if this is actually a cheat - the debate rages on.)

That's all I can think of for now, please feel free to contribute! And remember, don't do any of the things in that list, its just NOT RIGHT!


[This message has been edited by ArtEChoke (edited September 05, 2001).]

Do I detect a hint of bitterness? Naw, it must be my imagination.

According to that list, and a bit of extrapolation, you are cheesy unless you have a naked fighter killing everything with his bare fists! ;)

Stir melted cheese in bowl for 2 mintues. Set out for 5 mintues to let cool...oh wait I mistook this topic for a thread on recipes ;)

There may be cheesey tactics in these games but to what levels? Moderately Cheesy Monterey Jack or Extremely Cheesy Chedder?

Actually ArtE, my list of "cheese" would be:

1. A monk hero - overpowered coz of bugs class
2. Set trap ability always and everywhere - again overpowered coz of bugs and poor AI
3. All other BUGS that can be exploited, like stealing second Ring of Gaxx, killing own Pit Fiends for more XP, "fake-talk" etc...

All other things you mentioned I don't take as "cheese". If I took them, then what would I do in the game? Walking around and practising the sword only? Come on! Strange you haven't mentioned Boots of Speed in that list...

And no, I don't take Crom Faeyr a "cheese" because I worked for it very hard and explored every single inch of a game to find all "ingredients".
I'd take Carsomyr as "cheese" - you kill a dragon and got one of the best weapons in the game... Bah! Then again, I always sell that sword so I actually don't care if it could be considered a "cheese" or not.
All in all, I don't take usage of any weapon in the game is "cheese". Also I don't take usage of any spell as "cheese". Unless those weapons and spells are questionable additions...

IMHO, use of the bonus merchants is a major cheat, but if you already finished the game without it and want to see what is it all about - feel free to use it. Just don't tell me I'm an idiot for avoiding Robe of Vecna. I don't need it nor would use it, even if I cheated.

ArtE's exposition was likely in response to the "How to Avoid paying for the magic license" tread (or whatever it is called). I agree with your sarcasm whole-heartedly ArtE. Too many people brand normal tactics as Cheese or Cheats.

Obviously, exploiting a bug is a loser move (i.e. fake talk) if you care at all about about the *GAME*, but why does everyone rag on about traps so much? What use is a Bounty Hunter without traps? What is wrong with anticipating the path of someone and setting up for it?!?! If you want to talk about role playing, if this game were real, I sure as hell would try to ambush people rather than wait around and wade in like an oaf!

And E, I have to disagree with summoning your own beast for a kill being cheese. I think it is entirely plausible to want to test your own abilities, although repeated "tests" would be a loser move.

I guess, as the old saying goes, Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

What do you mean? I've never tried it, but all it amounts to is training. I think it's perfectly acceptable to train against summoned monsters - beats straw-filled dummies after all.

Training?

You must be pretty high level to summon Pit Fiend. So you call that "training"?
What's tutorial for?

And also, why don't you train on other of your summons - those that don't give XP?

Cut the crap, it is "exploit" and you know it.

What am I going to do with my sorcerer then!?!? Grap a Stick and try to hit Bodhi with it!?


Mind over matter I say, and I think magic is just fine!

Actually, the bonus merchants are implented in a ToB patch, so I don't think I would call them cheating (well some items at least ;))

You still have to pay for the items. That accounts for something!!! No pick-pocket/steal option with those two merchants.

On a scale of cheese maybe this is Swiss ;) You have to look at the "hole" picture.

[This message has been edited by Big B (edited September 05, 2001).]

Did I read that right? We have the new solo challenge: a fighter with no armor and no weapons. I can't wait. I'll report back later.


Well maybe not.

An addition to your list: Stealing the Ring of Gaxx from Kangaxx. (hmmm I know that one's been debated before)

The bonus merchants are dubious at best. The Robe of Vecna is definitely cheese if not cheat. And how do most people pay for those items? Even those that do not use SK probably quaff five or six PoMT and steal/sell/steal/sell/steal/steal/steal/steal/sell/sell/sell/sell. That is one of the most Velveeta moves there is!

I still disagree with you, E, on the Pit Fiend thing. I would find it very boring to summon a couple of Rabid Dogs to fight, but do enjoy testing out new weapons or spell effects on something a little meatier – and what is cooler than a Fiend?

Again, however, repeated use is a little Velveeta for me too.

how can a thief be considered cheese? you still need to detect and disarm traps and pick locks regardless of the more cheesy abilities like pickpockets and set traps

>>>And also, why don't you train on other of your summons - those that don't give XP?

Cut the crap, it is "exploit" and you know it.<<<

I dont really agree with that, destroying a summoned demon from hell that attacks the party deserves experience.

I do believe that the spell doesnt really balance well with the game if you get my meaning. The idea of the spell is that it can be used as a last resort, bringing forth a demon that could rip the party to shreds if not protected from evil. The reality is that once your powerful enough to cast the spell (unless you use a scroll) a party member can despatch the pit fiend single handedly without getting hurt much at all.

Perhaps they should have designed the pit fiend so it is twice as powerful as the creature it is doing battle with each turn so that nomatter who is fighting it its just as powerful. Or summin like that anyway ;)

Experience for summoned pit fiends was removed in the latest patch for ToB, I don't understand why they don't remove it for SoA as well. And since BI removed it, it must be a bug. The problem with gettign XP for it, is because you will start summoning it for XP instead of as mentioned, a last desperate resort.

To bad they didn't remove XP's for Glabrezu's as well in that patch.

In reply to the original post:
Here are my opinions

* Cheese:
- Quivering Palm.

* Cheese if used offensively:
- Magic Resistance (priest spell).

* Cheese in BG1/TotSC, but not BG2:
- Summon monsters to delay/kill enemy --- Cheese if you summon hordes with wands in BG1.

* Partly cheese:
- Monk --- Fists becoming magic weapons is a cheesy concept.
- Cloudkill and Set Traps --- Depends on how you use it.
- Use of bonus merchants --- Some items (especially Shield of Balduran) they sell are cheese.

* Not cheese:
- Lower Resistance (wizard spell).
- Stunning Blow.
- Finger of Death (comment: Both magic resistance and save allowed).
- Backstab.
- Thief.

* The rest of the points are ignorant, mindless babble (and obviously not cheese):
- Use of any magic.
- Use of a strategy.
- Use of spells, monsters or special abilities vs dragons. :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited September 06, 2001).]

How odd that I find myself almost totally in agreement with Extremist on this topic. :)

When you exploit a game due to your cleverness as a gamer as opposed your cleverness as a character, you are essentially cheating. While the letter of the rules may not be breached, the spirit have been and that my friends is cheesey or dodgey or whatever phrase you like to name exploitive (sp) game play.
When you use foreknowledge that you as a gamer have that your character doesn't have to set up an encounter such that it has no chance of failure, you are using exploits.
When you use weak AI to gain advantage in an encounter where there is no chance of failure you are using exploits.

*Cheese:
Excessive use of traps (i.e. set traps, rest, set traps, rest...)
Using Potions of Master Thievery to steal incredibly valuable items from merchants (i.e. Symbol scrolls, Horrid Wilting scrolls, Imprisonment scrolls...)
Use of the Cheat Keys activated by the console (i.e. CTRL-Q)
Use of the Console: PERIOD. (Unless you're just checking Romance status.)
Use of a Monk's Quivering Palm technique.
Use of a thief's Pick Pockets ability to steal two Rings of the Ram, two Rings of Gaxx, etc...

*Partly Cheese
The use of the Stunning Attack technique.
The summoning of a demon to train. Total cheese when used repetitively.
The use of the spell combination: Improved Invisibility and Spell Immunity: Divination
The Robe of Vecna. It's only part cheese because it requires ~25,000-30,000 gp to pay for.
The use of a monk.

[This message has been edited by AvaLance204 (edited September 06, 2001).]

Wait! Why is Quivering Palm cheese and Finger of Death beef? Doesn't Quivering Palm require a failed save vs. death?

Cheese? I love these cheese! :D


How do you guys come to know such tons of cheese??? :D

in any case, i think you can't help but be cheesy if you're playing the game 2nd (or more) time through since you know what to expect and when. You can't roleplay a character that divinely knows what's going to happen in the future. Special ability: immunity to ambush :)

hmm there's a cheesy tv show on fox about a guy who gets tomorrows newspaper everyday lol

Hmm...Something just hit me that Bioware should set XP-cap at level 9 then there should be no more power skills / no more power spells / no more cheeses hence more challenges if you guys should like... ;) :D

BTA is the only one that understood my original post, naked fighters using their bare fists are the only acceptable method of play - with one exception:

Multiple attacks are cheese

So you have to only attack once in a round, keep an eye on that, its not acceptable to attack more than that.

I'm glad we all got together on this, it makes it so much easier now to post about strategies without getting judged. :)

Edit begins here:
Okay, I apologize for the unabashed sarcasm in this and my original post, my only point to the whole topic was this:

If somebody posts a tactic that you don't like - instead of telling the poster, and the recipient, that the post was crap, post a better alternative if you're such the expert.

I'm just flat out tired of, "what? ain't choo tuff enuff ta kill Kangaxx wit a toofpick?" Its old and we all know that you're a hard-guy that we'd never want to mess with in a 'Baldur's Gate' kind of way.
So post something constructive that helps rather than pick a fight with someone that was trying to help.

[This message has been edited by ArtEChoke (edited September 06, 2001).]

Cheese ... yummy ... well, seriously:

-Bonus Merchants:
I had played BG-2 the first few times until I heared rumors about the "bonus merchants", so I downloaded and installed them ... anyway, there are just a few items worth the money (yes, you have to *buy* them, my thiefs had tears in their eyes, but you *cannot* steal them :mad: ) and these are imho: sling of everard/ Kashiko's wakizashi (zero initiative, excellent for backstabbers)/ defender of easthaven (I always drop it for the flail of the ages)/ Robe of Vecna - iirc it equals a robe of the archmagi, except that it offers faster spellcasting, it isn't cheap and so I don't really consider it's use cheese ...

-steal & sell:
Where would we come to when a thief would pay for items he needs ... ? <shakehead> I have Alora as my thief and she now has 140 basic in pickpocketing and using the gaunts of pickpocketing she doesn't even need more than one potion (as an insurance - me asks for what purpose other than improving *thieving* abilities these potions are in the game) to make a safe shoplift ... and btw - when your thief gets caught ... you do of course play on and do not reload the game, don't you (otherwise that would be major cheese ;) :rolleyes: ). And what is the problem with stealing and selling stuff one time? Don't forget that you are playing a thief - theft is their profession.

-Stealing rings, from gaxx and other wizards:
I do not know how many of you have ever tried to steal the ring of gaxx ... it is *not* easy and on my first four ways through BG-2 my attempts always failed and since Kangaxx is a tough enemy I was soon too busy with staying alive to care of the second ring.
The so-called charm trick with the mind control bracers both from planar prison and the illithids never worked for me and I had to find a solution of my own. I think I have earned my bug exploitation :D

btw - I never found a real use for a second ring of ram so I never picked it ;) You can also pick Lavok for another ring of wizardry ... cheasy, cheasy ...

-About setting traps:
When using Yoshimo (so playing bounty hunters of human race it, at least, potentially cheesy) to set traps, there is a cheesy trick to recharge his load of traps: it is possible to click the <dualclass> button, enter the dc menue and escape it then, after that the traps will be there again. This is indeed *major cheese*.

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited September 06, 2001).]

Anybody who considers the bonus merchants as cheese are...well, I just don't get those people.

Quivering palm is only cheese if you walk up to Firkraag, try it, he saves vs. death, and then you reload the game and continue to do so until he fails his save. Otherwise, QP has less kill potential than the silver sword and just as much kill potential as any insta-death spell.

Traps are absolutely not cheese.

Cloudkill is only cheese if you fire it into a fog of war where you happen to know a non-hostile dragon is waiting to talk to you before attacking.

Monks' hands considered magical weapons is cheese?? So what does he do, sit out every battle after chapter 2?

ArtEchoke, LOL for the original post...

Yes, we haven't talked about resurrection and healing potions ...

:mad: <FLAME, FLAME, MEGAFLAME: CEEEEEEEEEEEESE !!!> :mad:

My cheesy battle tactic is sending the character who is being attacked by a bad enemy running around the battlefield, so that the enemy pursues him while the rest of the team bang on him. If the AI was better it would never allow this to happen. I had to do this a lot with Wally early in the game, and it works especially well for a barbarian, who has innate extra speed.

The compensating factor is that it is boring as hell and takes a long time. (-:

I also did this with Cernd in the druid pit once in desperation. Faldorn had turned into a panther and was waling on him, and he summoned two bears and then fled with his tail between his legs all around the pit while the bears ate her up. I don't think he was holding his head up real high after that victory...

lol.. good tactics there. I'm partial to summoning creatures that can't be affected by normal weapons on creatures that only have normal weapons then wailing the cheese out of them. If i'm not mistaken, wasn't it art-e-choke that had a whole cheesy systematic method of mining an entire predetermined area with traps in lieu of the arrival of cowled wizards in order to defeat them, all in the name of saving 5000 measly gold pieces for a magic license? I didn't notice that on the list (although i did notice traps). I might be wrong here, so apologies if i have the wrong person. Nope, just checked. (see topic "not paying for magic license" posted: sep. 02 2001.) I suppose, in all fairness, having a cheese list doesn't preclude one's abiding by it point by point.

Apparently irony doesn't transmit too well online, huh? (-:

tjekanefir, I am saddened to say that you are correct, by and large, the public has missed the point.

Oh well, at least I tried.

Hey, chin up, Art, *I* thought it was funny. (-:

It's easy to miss sarcasm when there's no voice inflection to go by, and I've been impressed by the international nature of this board, so English isn't even everyone's native language. There are bound to be misunderstandings.

But in plain language: Artechoke was not complaining about the strategies in question; he was complaining about the 'cheese' label, and the idea that using a strategy, cunning, a character's special abilities, and so forth is somehow less manly than using a half-orc barbarian to bash everything in sight. (-:

For my part, I do find some 'strategies' to be more like cheating than clever playing. Like fake-talk and pickpocketing 80 rings of Gaxx, or whatever. That's really just exploiting loopholes that the programmers forgot to close up. And then other strategies, like my running-around-in-circles one, are really kind of lame.

But a lot of the things that draw scorn, like setting traps or using missile weapons or backstabbing--I mean, come on, "bounty hunter" is a really stupid kit, at least let the poor guy use his dang traps! (-:

Irony transmits online perfectly well, as does poorly written work being passed off as irony.

Oooooh, sass from the li'l goblin...

ArtEchoke, Tjek, frankly I've found this to be the funniest thread since Wally. I nearly pissed myself laughing at the original post.

It appears that now, because of the word "cheese" for everything ArtEChoke noticed has blinded us to the instances of genuine cheese such as close door (realistically trying that on an umberhulk would result in a lot of spliters), fake talk, abuse of save/reload to replay until everything's perfect and so forth, most of which I am guilty of from time to time. However the plus side is that Art gets to make fun of this abuse of the word cheese in his hilarious list.
Incidentally - if you shouldn't get XP for killing a pit fiend, because you can do it any time, you shouldn't get XP for killing monsters because you can always rest in an area where monsters respawn.
Oh, and I think you forgot
Use of any healing
resting (at all)

hm. Joke's on me... that *is* clever irony. And hey, it's gibberling to you, gonzago, got that?! :)

one of THE most besmirching things:
shadowke- what? arrrrghhhhhhh! *gets beat to death by extremist*

Actually mr. Grim, if you carefully read all threads that appeared last month in this forum - you'll find less occurences of that useless util than in any day of any month before.

My crusade is done. :-X use only people who can't accept it is dead for a long time.

RIP :-X
and may the Satan be proud of your deeds!

I don't agree entirely about the ":-X util". I think that using it for avatar changing is pretty fun. Make that *used* it.... I haven't, since I recently installed ToB and it was bugged to hell (NONE of the text showed up). So I deleted :-X and reinstalled everything, and it worked. Conclusion? It may have been the EXP cap remover. Oh, yeah, add that to the Cheese list. It is cheese not to deny your character their rightfully earned EXP!! God forbid that, while playing SoA, your mage level up over level 17!!! Um... so, after you install ToB, why does it become all right?? :confused:

Useing a thief is not cheese!
aND MY cONJURER and Sorcerer is not Cheese!
tHERE is not one thing wrong with playing as thoose classes.

On the use of Magic...

There's a magical explanation to everything.

Ara
(Mage-wannabe, drow-wannabe, assassin-wannabe...)

none of that stuff is cheesy!

the only thing that is, is the person that uses the stuff in the first place. I doubt Bioware ever intended for anyone to use this stuff in such a way...

the people that thought and found out about this stuff are Cheesy! not the game itself!!!!

The "cheese" label was invented by BG2 pros, who are so good at the game that they make things hard for themselves just to get extra challenge.... What I'm trying to say is, good for them an a round of applause. Just don't enforce those guidelines on people who, in fact, suck at the game.... Or, more mildly (in case anyone's offended), aren't as good as you pros are. ;):D