As I mentioned before, Imoen was not someone I was going to take once I found her and for some very obvious reasons.

First of all, she never had Magic Missile memorized or had a spell to cast off at the start and that pissed me off some.

Second, I've spent way too much time gathering scrolls for Aerie and forming her to fit my own party that there was no way she was going to go.

Third, Imoen joins the party with no well known spells, all my extra scrolls are in Waukeen's Promenade (slight chance of them letting me take Imoen there to get them, then go back to the Asylum).

So with all due respect, I told her to leave and she said she'd be in Athkatla in the Copper Cornet. Although my own inards turned at watching her leave, it had to be done for I was not about to split the party down the middle just to fit her in.

My question though, how many of you didn't take her either?

Syl...

I left her once and took her twice (if you know what I mean...).

If have Yoshi until he betrays you, you'd be stupid not to pick her up. The third time I played I had gotten over my anger at Yoshi and had him in my party until...well, you know. Then I used Imoen for her thieving skills.

The second time, I was still pissed at yoshie so I dropped him for Jan at the first opportunity and sent Imoen out on her own when the time came.

This, of course, is not what you wanted to know. I took her. My party has Ariee and Imoen and myself, 3 mages of some type, so my party is magic heavy as you can see. Even low on experience, she is the best thief-mage in the game. Her important skills are great(locks/traps), and I'm hoping she'll get enough exp to be a good mage near the end(not that she's bad). I wish I hadn't done so many quests before I went to chap 4. Might have made 3 and 4 more challenging. Understand your personal need for vengance, but you dumped (spoiler) family, man. How's she gonna get back what she lost now? ;)

I did not take her with me the first time around for the same reasons, I liked my party the way I had developed it and she did not fit in.

Awesome, so nothing lost then except a pitiful thief. No big deal there. Thanks guys, my party is perfect without her!

Grub
Keldorn
Valygar
Minsc
Jaheira
Aerie

Syl...

I'm planning to take Yoshimo with me again just to make this choice easy :). I know you hate pure thieves, so sorry I even mentioned it :p. I'll also bring along a few scroll cases with spells for her.

And she didn't have spells at the start :confused:? That is strange. She had some in my games.

I just started a game (to test it) and she had Armour, Chromatic Orb, ID, Magic Missile, Stinking Cloud, Strength, Web, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Monster Summoning I, Minor Globe and Stoneskin all memorized and ready to cast.

[This message has been edited by Thaumas (edited December 04, 2000).]

I meant useful spells and ones that you find during all your travels of side-quests and the like even before going to Chapter 3. There is no way that Imoen would have such a variety of spells compared to Aerie who had been collecting them all that time.

Yes Imoen has spells, but useless to me if they are those you mentioned compared to Aerie, who has so much more and much more deadly.

I think it was a bad idea to have done this to Imoen because she was my favorite character in BG1. They do a smart thing by dueling her to a mage for BG2, but butcher her thieving skills to be so useless to me personally. She couldn't hide in a box if her life depended on it.

Then they go and have her wisked away and when you find her, she's just as useless, if not more now that the party is such a high level. 'tis a shame.

Syl...

Sorry, Syl, I disagree with you..at least somewhat. Yeah, Imoen may not be the strongest member (depending the type of group you prefer) but she is FAMILY! She is the reason for the whole adventure. (Well, a little personal vengeance, too). If it weren't for all the quests and side jobs working toward her rescue, half of your team members would never have been recruited! Now, after she is rescued and the issue of getting back what was lost(soul?) is resolved, then if you part ways, so be it. Until then, I'm surprised Keldorn and Minsc let you sleep in any kind of comfort!

And how do know for sure she really did the missiles? Remember that belt she had? The one that couldn't come off and even she didn't know where she got it? Well, when gets rescued she doesn't have it any more. Suppose it was a cursed magic launcher of some sort? (there is necklace that launches missiles, why not a belt?) since she had just escaped from Jon (maybe he LET her?) perhaps she was under some compulsion? Give her the benefit of family trust.

< The preceding is from the basis of my groups basically good party alignment, and the way we currently perceive the world. No offense is intended toward anyone or anybody. My next time thru, I may dump her myself! (haven't decided my characters, yet!) >
:) :)
:D

Sorry, I thought you said she didn't have any spells memorized at the start of the game, which she has. Must've misunderstood you then.

I've also found out that she doesn't keep any of the spells you let her learn in the first dungeon, which is stupid. I think the game treats her as two separate characters.

[This message has been edited by Thaumas (edited December 04, 2000).]

Oh, it seems the lack of xp may be a non-issue. When I picked her up at the asylum, she was level 13, comparable to the rest of my group. True, she didn't have equipment or the spells I might have picked, but I didn't expect her to have ANYTHING. At least she did have spells in her book and even memorized. I'd say that's not much different than any other NPC you pick up.
:) :D

Jaheira grumbled about it, but that's all.

Keldorn was not going to be let go because of his strong battle strengths and knowledge.

Minsc wasn't going to go because I put so much into him to develop him into a two-handed wielding fighter.

Valygar is simply too important to my entire party.

Jaheira is too valuable as well being another great fighter who has the second highest AC in the game at -8, Keldorn and I both having -9. Her Druid spells also come in very handy.

Aerie is an excellent cleric/mage who I have put all my time and effort towards in making her a force rather than a pitty.

So really, there was no room for Imoen, family or not in my group because there was no one I was willing to part with. She should be glad I came to save her and best of all, she got out of the bloody Aslyum quicker than I did, so there's my punishment. She just walked out...

This is my final party and is the party I have formed and tweaked over all the areas I have explored before heading to Chapter 3. Playing with the other NPCs in the games, or at least those that lived long enough around me, simply didn't cut it.

From here on in, these troops will finish the game with me and Imoen can drink her sorrows away in the Copper Cornet.

Syl...

[This message has been edited by Sylvus Moonbow (edited December 04, 2000).]

She was a couple of levels below the rest of my party. I ended up with three mages (Imoen, Aerie, Nalia), which was too many, Imoen was primarily thief and backup or backup backup mage ( :rolleyes: ). This time I'm dumping Nalia for a fighting type. Hmmm Valygar or Keldorn? I'm leaning towards Valygar.

Sorry Syl, I took her.
I think Mobeus hit the nail on the head, she's got as much right to be in at the kill as the PC has. I don't buy all that "make your own way home" crap - through a dungeon crawling with umber hulks, vamps etc? Really? It's not like she can just catch a bus.

I had taken Yosh, and his gear fitted her a treat. With the gloves of pock-picketting and the ring of trap sorting she's a more than adequate thief, and I had a case full of scrolls to bring her up to speed MU wise.

But why am I justifying this - she's IMOEN for Tormssake!

Actually I agree with Mobeus, Imoen is the center for Chpts 2 & 3 and I thought I wouldn't want to waste my adventure so I let her in. But actually I had Yoshi in the game and betrayed me so i had an extra slot in the game to let Imoen join (so I have 4 MAGES ---bad thing!)

Why are you guys saying sorry to me? LOL! It's ok! *pats everyone on the shoulder*

Grub never knew Imoen. He wasn't an import from BG to BG2 and as far as he is concerned, she is someone who set him free from Irenicus and Grub has simply repaid that debt. They are now on even terms and she can go as she wishes. Although they may be family, they are only bound as such by a Gods inability to keep his you know what in his pants, nothing more. Grub has no fond memories of Imoen in the Hills of Zarchancheroustiv-tac-tac-rodmenkur-tao-vu where he was born and lived with Orcs. Grub has no sense of family when he looks at Imoen. She was never there.

Now on a skill level. I don't need another mage. Although I like to have two mages in my party removing anyone from the group was an instant no. Five front line fighters, one being a fighter/druid and a cleric/mage to boot as backup.

Although, I could probably boot most of them as it is. So far in the Asylum, my entire party has stayed back while Grub went and did everything himself. So far I have not been very impressed with the difficulty within but I'm sure that will change eventually.

I never thought I'd be fighting bloody Kobolds and Goblins in Chapter 4.

Syl...

"Well, Well" and "Here, Here" I do believe that several posters here gave the proper message about Imoen. Mobeus for one. Imoen is scripted in BG2 to be FAMILY. Whether acknowledged or not by Syl. Are we 'Role-Playing' or 'Power-Gaming' these days? Syl if you are Role-Playing then yes Grub knew Imoen. Grub has a great history with her that includes feats and heroic battles. Life back in Candlekeep. Imported character or not. Otherwise...why even go rescue her? What's the point? Unless you are Power Gaming these days. BTW I read your post that you probably wont play BG2 again,(-which I hope you do play again-) so right now at the point where you are in Chap 4 you cant benefit from 'hind-sight'. Imoen will finish at level 16 or 17 if you do enough quests. She'll turn out just fine and will contribute all the while. Give her Tasheron's bow or the Tunguaria bow(sp?). Then focus her spells for specific 'complimentary' additions to your party. She has shown loyalty only like Minsc could in BG1, TOSC and also in BG2.

From what I gather (only my analysis here) from your posts here is that you've become too dependant on your current party config. It's not flexible and therefore cannot be adjusted to make room for IMOEN. The ENTIRE game surrounds rescuing her and getting back what Jon Irenicus stole from YOU (GRUB) and your sister (IMOEN).

I will agree that the game designers 'jacked' up her character in a way that only a true Role Player can relate to. They made her into a death obsessed, Psychotic, nerve racked and frightened child in the first dungeon. Then the designers 'stole' her away from you. The designers 'steal' away all kinds of characters in this game. Keldorn, Yoshimo, Jaheria, Nalia, Jan and other's. Where these characters just 'up and split on you' in different situations. But IMOEN is far more than all of these IF you are Role Playing (just in BG2 not to mention BG1).

Of course.... these are just my opinions. But I like my opinions! :)

Then with that said, I guess I'm a power gamer.

Syl...

Bad, BAD Syl! You, you, you... POWERGAMER! ;)

Ha! Good thing your not Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia(Luke's SISTER) and the Rebellion would've been SOL!!! :)

Well, enjoy the game nonetheless. I do believe you'll find more challanges in the Underdark with your party. More than enough opponents to liven things up even for a 'power game'.

Hi, I need your advices:

My party is currently:

Flint, Dwarf Beserker.
Minsc, you know him
Jaheira
Anomen
Nalia
Imoen

I was thinking about kicking Imoen out of my party and replacing her by Valygar.

Good move? Better suggestion??

Thanks people.

Last thing.

Imoen is using GesenKhan Bow. Can Valygar use bows?

Hmmm... Isn't Nalia worse that Imoen? I don't know for sure since I never picked her up, but I've heard her thieving skills are pretty weak. I'd drop Nalia before Imoen I think...

Valygar is great IMO, I had him almost from the beginning and kept him to the end.

Valygar is a Stalker and can in theory use any bows; he's got 17 strength, so without an upgrade there, there are some longbows he can't use.


[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited December 04, 2000).]

Yeah, maybe your right about Nalia Thieving skills, but now, she is my main mage. She had learned ton's of goods spells. That why i'm not sure...

I've lived without a thief since Nalia was taken away from me and once I got her back, I had adapted so much without her, that I told her to stay in the Government District.

In fact, I haven't come across any need for a thief since I did the Slavers Quest in the sewers of the Copper Cornet. I picked up Yoshimo quickly for that to disarm an annoying poison dart trap, but since then I've managed fine.

Now in Spellhold deep within the Asylum, my need for one still has not been called upon. Anytime a chest is locked, Knock does the trick. Anytime I need to stealth, the Ring of Invisibility does the trick. Anytime I think there might be traps, Find Traps does the trick. Anytime I need those traps disarmed, Grub does the trick by setting them off and taking the blow.

I'd take Valygar over Imoen anyday, but then. I'm a supposed power gamer...

Syl...

[This message has been edited by Sylvus Moonbow (edited December 04, 2000).]

But anyway, Nalia still have some thieving skills. Not the best, but not the worst. And the only thing I use Imone, is for using a bow. I dont use very often her magic skills: she always have an armor, so she cannot cast a damn thing. And for her thiving skills... Nalia is not worst.

So I think I will do this.

But is Valygar can use bows?? I have the Gesen Khan bow (now being used by Imoen).


thanks

Yes, Valygar can use bows.

Syl...

Good!

So I will prepare Imoen for her return to civil life.

Ciao Imoen! Go find a man and make a family!
Buy yourself a rocking chair, get fat and have a nice time.

Yes, Nalia is defintely a worse theif than Imoen. (Though not by much).
And with some decent items like gloves of pickpocketing and such you can get them both to somewhat normal level.
I currently have Nalia in my party but solely as a thief with a shortbow, practically never using her mage skills. So once I get to Imoen, I'll simply dump Nalia and let Imoen join.
Best solution I can think of.

So except for Yoshimo who is the best thief in the game. I do not want to disable traps by setting them off. Or more to the point is imoen okay at disarming traps. I just got her back and plan to keep her.

Syl, picture this:
<Image of Grub: sitting in a tavern; alone; shoulders hunched over; hands cupped around a mug; solitary tear, trickling down his cheek; an occasional *sigh* escapes his mighty frame>

All because none of his 'friends' will play with him anymore, since he left his SISTER out in the cold of Jon's prison! And after she had risked her a$$ to free him from his cage and break free from the dungeon in the first place!

THAT's why some of us say we're "sorry, Syl..." We couldn't stand it if you (or Grub) took it TOO hard!! <grin> We'd end up sitting right there, next to Grub!!

:) :D

All right, all right... Imoen is only the protagonists HALF sister, and having the blood of the god of murder in common doesn't make for a strong sibling bond. Just look at what all of you did to your BROTHER Sarevok. I simply can't take the sibling arguments seriously.

Now as to leaving a friend out in the cold, that's a different story, and one that's easy to refute. He didn't leave her out in the cold; he returned the favor of his rescue with hers.

He admitted it was difficult to watch her go, but after all he had been through without her, he felt it was time to continue the adventure without her.

It's not like he spitted her on the end of his blade (or I guess more like crushed her skull with his flail :) ) which is what he felt like doing for getting into this mess in the first place! :)

Hmmm... Isn't Nalia worse that Imoen?

It depends. Her thieving skills are worse, but in my game, Imoen never reached Nalia's level as mage. Nalia is in fact, the second best mage in the game after Edwin (which isn't saying much...). If you leave some quests for after you come back from the Underdark, perhaps Imoen will even reach the XP cap, I don't know :rolleyes:.

:)

I vote Blackthorne TA for new moderator!

Hehe.

Syl...

With the Ring of Danger Sense and the Ring of Lockpicking (or even without, I don't know), Imoen should have no problems being a thief.

Heh... I'll watch your back Syl :)

And here I was trying to be SO considerate and compasionate! (Didn't you think the tear was a nice touch?...LOL <g> )
:D
.
Point taken. Enough is enough.
No offense intended. Certainly none taken.
Time to move on. Issue closed. ;)
.
.
.
.
<Although.....hmmm...it's good that the issue is closed, or someone might have been compelled to point out that the circumstances are not quite the same. If memory serves... Sarevok was not known to be our blood relative; and he attacked us without provocation or warning. And someone might also point out that it takes more than blood to make true sibling bonds–it takes upbringing, perhaps even more so than blood. Gorion was our father in all but blood, and raised us together–as siblings. Yes, it is good that the issue is closed...so that such potentially unsettling things can be dismissed without any further concern.> :)
:D
.
.
.
Once again, apologies to any and all who may have taken any comments to be out of line or inappropriate. Such was/is never the intent. My current party is basically of Good alignment (even Viconia is working out quite well–so far). Their code is fairly simple: We all go in...We all come out. No one is left behind. (That is not to say party members are not changed between quests or at appropriate settlements, but they all understand that as it is part of the standard ‘Adventurers Agreement' we mutually agree to when they come on board.)
:D

<Oh, crap. Time to get off the soapbox...I'm starting to sound like a Paladin! *chuckle*>
:) :D

[This message has been edited by Mobeus (edited December 05, 2000).]

You knew Sarevok was your brother before you killed him.

You didn't know Imoen was your sister while you grew up together; she was simply a childhood friend or aquaintance.

I didn't get the impression from BG1 that we were raised together as siblings, or that Gorion was as much my father as I was simply his charge and he looked out for me; but perhaps others have different impressions.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here since nobody else would :) I of course took Imoen with me because I wouldn't have missed out on the whole Yoshimo drama in Spellhold for anything! :)

I have Imoen with me but I don't think ANY NPC is either Usefull or Useless gamewise or plotwise. I am quite sure you can clock the game with Mazzy, Cernd, Haer'Dalis, Nalia and Anomen in the same way you can clock it on your own quite easily (I have seen Jesters, Kensai/Mage, Sorcerers and Paladin done).
A thief in a party is as usefull as a Mage and as usefull as a Druid and as usefull as a Fighter as a Bard, as a Ranger....
So with or without Imoen makes no difference.
Noone can claim to have the "prefect" party.

Plotwise you have the possibility to:
1) Save Imoen
2) Kick Irenicus' butt
3) Just plain adventure
If you save Imoen, you can:
a) Stay with her
b) Tell her to have a pint at the Copper C.

RolePlaying doesn't force you to keep her.

The sole issue I have with this game is the fact that to leave the dungeon I have to kick everybody's ass whereas you can dump her (or anyone else) and they leave the dungeon easily and end up sipping a keg at the pub. Same for Spellhold, same for underdark. There are some serious loops in the plots there. For this reason alone I refuse to dump any of my characters in a place where I know they can't leave easily (Planar Sphere, Planar Prison, Irenicus Dungeon, Sahuaguin City, Spellhold, Underdark...) Unfortunately Yoshimo, Imoen, Jaheira and Minsc are "forced" upon you in the dungeon and Imoen is forced upon you at Spellhold which is daft.

My deux centimes,

Kyrn

Kyrn.

I think you have t take Imoen back in your party; she´s familiy and after loosing Yoshi, she comes in handy if you dont have a thief.I played a thief so I didn´t need him, but I needed the extra wizard.
I didn´t had Yoshi in my party so Saemon Havarian had to poison me instead. Later, when I entered the copper coronet, where I left Yoshi I read the short combat report: "Yoshi dies" and I could collect the Items I left with him (damn´ lost fight.....)

Playing the second time Yoshi betrayed me.

I´m still pissed up about that. So now, the third time I´ll be prepared: I´ll save every curse I´ll find in the game and make Yoshi use all scrolls and items right before I enter the asylum.He´ll find it difficult to fight me then, huag huag huag
After that I will take Imoen back into my party to get back my soul and to kill those filthy bastards ...

Wow, I now have heard all that I can about those who have 'no honor or loyalty' towards Imoen. Syl, I can't say enough about it except that "it is a game". However our approach to games in small ways reflect our personalities and what we identify with.

Imoen is a solid NPC in this game and role-playing is always an issue in AD&D based games. If your EVIL Character gives Imoen the boot - I don't know how anyone can have a problem with that. Including me. If your GOOD Character gives Imoen the boot... problem. The lame (yep) comparison of Imoen with Sarevok is inexcusable. In BG1 Sarevok in cold-blood killed your known father at the time (Gorion) and later framed you for mass murder and oh yeah, had a contract out for your 'head on a stick' from the start of the game. For Blackthorne even to bring that up is... well... well I cant find words right now to discuss *it*!! I mentioned Star Wars before but again, Luke never knew Leia was his sister for *quite* some time... but he still was honor bound to do was what right from day one.

I only wish the designers would've eliminated the option "Go wait in the CC and I'll come get you if I need you"... nonsense. Then we'd see the 'measure' and the 'caliber' behind the board names here at Sorcerer's Place.

Then again, it's just a game and it's yours to play as you see fit. :) :( "So go do, that voodoo, that you do, sooooo well"

Ahhh... What an enjoyable debate :)

Draco - You mistake my argument. I wasn't comparing Imoen to Sarevok; I was using Sarevok to illustrate the fact that sharing the blood of Bhaal garnered no special treatment from any of you, so the "family" arguments are irrelevant in my view.

The "friend" angle is far more compelling, and I don't see Grub's treatment of Imoen as inconsistent with that of a good aligned friend.

He did not leave her to rot in Irenicus' dungeon nor did he harm her in any way; quite to the contrary, he rescued her!

I don't see anything wrong with Grub telling Imoen that he believes the quest for justice or vengeance would proceed better without her. After all, he has been apart from her for 2 months or so, and has experienced much with another group of friends without her. To say that Imoen is more important to the party than these others simply because she was there first holds no sway with me.

And what a horrible fate he sentenced her to! Take you ease in the Copper Coronet while we continue the quest to get your soul back for you... Some could say she got the better end of the deal!

And your comparison with Star Wars is not compelling; Luke and Leia did not quest together the whole time, they each had their own role to play in their common struggle and were apart for much of the time. Grub is doing the "right" thing; he is simply not doing it with Imoen...

Blackthorne, you've apparently convinced yourself regarding the 'abandonment' of Imoen. No problem, we all seek justification when searching for the 'good' feeling that we are in 'the right'. Either you are missing some of the facts about Star Wars that I was bringing into the debate or you are ignoring them. Such as Bhaal... Darth Vader.... Fathers of " "... ok, you get the point.

Away from the party for 2 WHOLE MONTHS, wow. Total strangers after 2 WHOLE MONTHS. "What's your name again" ??? "Oh yeah, Imoen. Sorry I forgot it's been 2 WHOLE MONTHS..." C'mon. Whether friends or family they were raised in the same small community and shared dozens of battles and quests before meeting up with BG2 NPC's. Trapped, caged and tortured together. Escaped together, etc. etc. etc.

You can slice it anyway you wish, but it is a game. So play it as you like, you purchased it and you own it! However without going into any tedious details, the dialogue from the start of the game all the way to the end (including the overall theme of the game) surrounds your MAIN character and IMOEN. If you choose to ignore that dialogue, game script, quests related to and theme of BG2 then yes, I can actually agree with your views or Syl's (Grub) character. Otherwise, it won't add up for me. Again, no problem -we all can enjoy the game nonetheless!

:) (:

-Draco Vlasavius



[This message has been edited by Draco Vlasavius (edited December 06, 2000).]

Heh, heh! Again you mistake me :) I'm not saying it was the best solution or even one that I personally would choose (in fact I wanted to have Imoen back). I am saying that it's an understandable position and one not inconsistent with playing a good aligned role.

I believe that the amount of time we spent adventuring with Imoen in BG1 is comparable to the two months; but that was a long time ago, so I could be mistaken... I'm not saying that he doesn't know her any more; just that he believes he can carry out his mission better without her.

All of your arguments for why you should keep Imoen are valid, but they are also true of the new friends you've been adventuring with.

Grub had his reasons, and I'm simply saying I believe them to be valid in a roleplaying sense.

Your parallels with regard to Star Wars are also valid, but I'm saying that they don't justify your position that Grub should bring on Imoen no matter what. Again, Luke and Leia did not feel compelled to stay together, they both did what they thought was necessary to achieve their mutual goal, and if that meant parting for a while then so be it.

And just because Imoen is central to the story doesn't mean she should be a member of the party.

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited December 06, 2000).]

No offense, Syl, but Grub does not sound terribly bright, even for a half orc.

OK. It seems that 'some' share a different view of Role-Playing that I do. My Role-Playing with the Baldur's Gate series encompasses a wider and inclusive view of all characters & NPC's with their individual histories. I believe the designers have this view as well because we find many characters and various dialogues that 'unite' BG1 & BG2. The designers have established a history for our characters and the NPC's we happenchance upon in the game. I've visited other boards from the first week that I purchased my copy of the game and realize there are Power Gamer's & Role-Players (Veteran and Newbies) everywhere. But I thoroughly enjoy many of the posts here. I started here as a board member with IWD some time back and have been a regular since. In veiw of many posts here and elsewhere I (my opinion) classify myself as a true veteran Role-Player that goes back to the original Players Handbook and Monster Manual.

I believe our view surrounding Imoen actually lies within the realm of 'how we approach the game'. Power Gaming or Role-Play Gaming.

I cannot 'convince' someone who wishes to believe something else. Nor do I want to, it's not my 'destiny'. But I do enjoy thinking and promoting thinking within others about many subjects. Sooooo with that said, enjoy BG2 - I CAN'T WAIT for NWN, IWD2(expansion) and BG3! Perhaps in time... our views will be more 'similar'. Then again... :)

Heh! Awww... Is the debate over then? I was actually enjoying myself! You are a worthy opponent Draco :)

I also harken back the the orignal DM's Guide, Players Handbook and Monster Manual and even back to the original boxed kit for D&D.

But as far as BG1 united with BG2, I think it would have been better had the developers allowed us to indicate which NPCs we had travelled with and what skills we had developed in them in BG1. Perhaps then Syl and others would feel more of a connection with the Imoen and the others from BG1 in BG2. But of course that is far too much work to expect.

And just to make it clear once again: I was playing devil's advocate because nobody else would :)

And what makes Grub not as bright as compared too...?! Nothing "not too bright" about it. Grub has valid reasons for not taking Imoen and if she was supposed to go along, they would have forced her on all of us and made her tag along. Thankfully, that choice was given and Grub had no reason to take her along.

Payment done. Imoen and Grub are even. Nothing more, nothing less. Grub didn't grow up with her in Candlekeep, my Paladin from BG1 did so her ranting and raving to Grub is more than problematic. It's down right scary.

Syl...

I hope you didn't waste too much int points on Grub (though I'm gonna be playing a Half-Orc mage sooner or later, just to proove all those racist ideas about dumb half orc wrong).

To Imoen: There are good reasons for leaving her: after all she's been throug she certainly deserves to take some time out.

I took her and left Nalia, but that girl helped me against the umber hulks even though she wasn't in the party no more (that broke my heart :().
So I dropped Jan (my bloody character tells him to stay in hte asylum instead of going back home (thats *****y :mad:, so I'll replay coming to the asylum without him)).

I got
Sorl the sorc(12)
Jaheira(12)
Valygar(11)
Viconia(12)
Nalia(12)
Imoen(11)

I would have dropped Jaheira because I still haven't got a good weapon for her (2 profs in clubs) but she's too good with her evocation spells to change her for anyone but a cleric/priest.

I decided to keep imoen when I rescued her on the basis it did not make any sense plotwise not to. Besides she was a reasonable replacement for Yoshi if you give her a few magical items, she can still cut it as a thief. Also if you consider that when you get her back she is always only one level behind the main character it is not that hard for her to cath up.

I guess there are nearly as many views of "right" and "loyalty" as there are players.
All I know is that, when NWN gets up and rolling I hope I get to adventure with characters like Mobeus and Draco who share similar world - views to Erran rather than a Syl/Grub who'll dump me if my xps drop below standard.

Ha! Ha! Ha! I love this! :D

I think most of you misconstrue Grub's reasons for not accepting Imoen back. And he didn't dump her, she was abducted. :)

Well Erran, if it's NWN you'll be playing, hit www.alandfaraway.net (http://www.alandfaraway.net) and sign up your vaulted character as soon as you can. Limited spots are still available in the largest recreation of the Forgotten Realms for all of NWN projects. Over 50 DMs available for your playing enjoyment and if Mobeus and Draco arrive as well, then we'll all have a blast.

The only downside for you. I'm a DM of the worst dungeon ever created in the realms and of course, the worst city ever designed.

Undermountain and Skullport.

I wish you three well on my server. <evil grin>

Syl...

Heh! Now Syl, you wouldn't single them out for any "special treatment" now would you? ;)

Here's your answer:

The first person I kill will be Sorcerer!

LOL!

Syl...

I just KNEW that one was coming. Damn bastard'll probably ambush me with a horde of gibberlings which my level 1 sorcerer won't be able to handle.
He's like that. He'd leave me die of embarrasment.
Hmm. Maybe I'll just make a new char and name him Grub the Wormheaded, the undead Orc horror just to honor my lovely DM to be.

:D

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited December 06, 2000).]

Syl is right though, stupid ***** cast a spell she didn't have memorised AND in a magic hating country, they did know they were in Amn I belive.

*Sigh*
A mage casting the simplest level 1 spell when she doesn't have it memorized just for the sake of the intro sequence seems so minor to me that I've been watching all this fuss over it with a only a mild interest. I mean, all this talk about role-play and you can't allow for the possibilty that a mage could cast the simplest spell without having it in her spellbook?

Come on.
And no, when they got out they had NO idea they were in Amn. Especially if you turned Yoshimo down in the dungeon.

So, :rolleyes:

Heh, heh... Very true :)

I was pretty neutral about the whole thing until just about everyone disagreed with Syl's position, and Syl declined to take up the gauntlet.

I never could resist a good debate from the underdog's position :D

Rats!! Looks like we've just about run this subject into the ground! (Who started all this anyway??! <g> )

Actually, I totally agree with you guys. I also like a good friendly debate (Gosh, we ARE all still friends, aren't we?) In truth, I can see and support practically any viewpoint under the right conditions. That's one of the things that RPGs are all about--pick a side/decision and carry it out.
Next time, pick the other side. It's great!

Although, I didn't think Syl was the underdog! At least, not at first. In fact, for a while, I was beginning to feel like the Christmas snowman on the first day of spring! ;)

:D :)

Even if your character wasn't in BG1, he or she did grow up in Candlekeep. There's refrences to it throughout the game, about Gorion being your character's stepfather. Firkraag mentions it, for instance, and your character's dreams are full or images of the place. So it had to figure in your character's life.

just wanted to point out that Imoen does have Magic Missle in her spell book at the begining. you must be thinking of Nalia because she doesn't. cant imagine the designers would have Imoen cast a spell she doesn't know.

Friends? Well, I wouldn't go that far... I mean I hardly know any of you...

To be honest, you are all beneath my notice...

In fact, you are all merely insects whose sole purpose is to be crushed under my bootheel on my way to supreme power and world domination!

KNEEL TO YOUR LORD AND MASTER: BLACKTHORNE THE ABOMINABLE! AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

<Looks around at the aghast stares>
<Looks up at the ceiling, hands in pockets>
<Casually strolls to the exit, whistling with an air of nonchalance>

** frrrpptt **
** pooompft **
** foooommmm fooommmm foooommmm **


< whistling cuts off as struck with silence >

< surprised look fades as polymorphed into squirrel >

< despicable tyrant decimated by barage of magic missiles >

< poetic justice prevails >

:) :D

Heh, heh! Well done! ;)

Thankfully Sorcerer is tired of reading this threat and won't notice that no one is talking about Imoen anymore ;)

Syl...

Imoen?? Imoen??
Oh, yeah...that scrawny little wench who's always tagging along causing trouble.. ;)

<Rats! Never saw a topic stretch to 3 pages before...maybe next time..>
:D

Wanna restart the topic? You can flame me for this one...

You're all talking about Role Playing your character right? right.

Then you say, Grub DID grow up in Candlekeep no matter what he says.... WRONG... What Syl is doing IS Role-Playing. What the rest of you are doing is called "following the storyline" I think it makes him a great role-player in that he took a new character and made it a *gasp* NEW character. He's role-playing that he never came from Candlekeep and that he just happens to be another unfortunate who also happens to be a child of Bhaal. Imoen and the rest keep confusing him with someone they seem to remember.... poor Grub has no idea what they're talking about :D

Keldor Mithrilhammer

Wingfoot - Yes I know Imoen has Magic Missile in her spellbook, but when I finally got out of Irenicus' Dungeon, she did not have it memorized or had a scroll on her yet she still casted it.

A slight flaw in my books, but nothing to really worry about since I was only asking who took Imoen when they rescued her.

As for Mithrillhammer, he got it right on the nail! ;)

Syl...

Good for you Mithrilhammer! I was wondering if somebody would bring that up; it wasn't central to my arguments, so I didn't bother... I was beginning to think that nobody would; I was hoping Syl would eventually mention it, but he didn't seem interested...

And welcome to the minority club! ;)

I thought I made it pretty obvious when I said "Grub never met Imoen in Candlekeep, my Paladin did". "Grub has no fond memories of Imoen in the Hills of Zarchancheroustiv-tac-tac-rodmenkur-tao-vu where he was born and lived with Orcs. Grub has no sense of family when he looks at Imoen. She was never there."

If I have to spell out R-O-L-E-P-L-A-Y-I-N-G to everyone for my reasons of not taking Imoen, along with the others I mentioned as well, then my good cyber chaps, this thread is going to hit 100 posts since it's obvious no one can see my point of view.

This is an RPG right? So sorry for treating it as such. I'll go right back and re-load my saved game and take Imoen based on all the posts here saying I have to "because she's family!" To me, in an RPG sense, she isn't because my character Grub never lived in Candlekeep. Lance did, my Paladin from BG1 who is not with us today to enjoy BG2 I'm afraid.

Oh and this was the 69th post, made by me. Lick it and weep ;)

Syl...


[This message has been edited by Sylvus Moonbow (edited December 08, 2000).]

Thank you Blackthorne, glad to be part of the minority ;)

And Syl, I'm sorry to hear about Lance, I'm sure he was a wonderful Paladin. Let's take a moment of silence shall we........... :D

Draco Vlasavius said:

>Wow, I now have heard all that I can about those who have 'no honor or loyalty' towards Imoen. Syl, I can't say enough about it except that "it is a game". However our approach to games in small ways reflect our personalities and what we identify with.
Imoen is a solid NPC in this game and role-playing is always an issue in AD&D based games. If your EVIL Character gives Imoen the boot - I don't know how anyone can have a problem with that. Including me. If your GOOD Character gives Imoen the boot... problem. The lame (yep) comparison of Imoen with Sarevok is inexcusable. In BG1 Sarevok in cold-blood killed your known father at the time (Gorion) and later framed you for mass murder and oh yeah, had a contract out for your 'head on a stick' from the start of the game. For Blackthorne even to bring that up is... well... well I cant find words right now to discuss *it*!! I mentioned Star Wars before but again, Luke never knew Leia was his sister for *quite* some time... but he still was honor bound to do was what right from day one.

>I only wish the designers would've eliminated the option "Go wait in the CC and I'll come get you if I need you"... nonsense. Then we'd see the 'measure' and the 'caliber' behind the board names here at >Sorcerer's Place.

>Then again, it's just a game and it's yours to play as you see fit. "So go do, that voodoo, that you do, sooooo well"

-----
Saverok never killed Grubs father nor did I use that as an example. I think it was another fine cyber chap on this fine cyber message board.

Saverok killed Lance's father and it was Lance who helped Imoen as she helped Lance in BG1.

Grub on the other hand just happens to be another child of Bhaal and in no way did he help or get help from Imoen in BG1 because he wasn't there. He was in the Hills of Zarchancheroustiv-tac-tac-rodmenkur-tao-vu where he was born and lived with Orcs.

If Imoen was family and was there in those Hills with Grub and they grew up together, fine I'm sure Imoen would have made an excellent person to have in the party. Since that is not the case in an RPG sense, then there is no harm done in telling her to leave.

I repaid her debt and honored it. She saved Grub from Irenicus' Dungeon and I saved her from Spellhold. We are even and that is that. Grub owes her nothing and she may do as she wishes.

Others think different, but that's fine too if they want to be lead around by the story. I for one, will not.

Syl...


[This message has been edited by Sylvus Moonbow (edited December 08, 2000).]

Helms see all..Know that and be judged. We all know what that Sylvus is an evil half orc who thinks he has deeds like Drizzt's.

If Drizzt's was in his shoes, he would never do what Grub did.

From the sheer roleplaying point of view...I'm fine with it. I imported my paladin from BG1, so Imoen is dear to me...When I get her out of spellhold, she will be in the party. End o' story.

Syl's Orc doesn't know her from Adam, other than the fact she helped him out in Irenicus' dungeon - I agree with him. The debt is paid...She can kick back and have a few cold ones in the Coronet.

As far as the Magic Missle issue...Chalk it up to Wild Magic...That originated in the Realms right? How about that? ;)

Saying Grub is trying to be like Drizzt?!

No! Wait! He said Sylvus HIMSELF is trying to be like Drizzt!

Oooo! The most dire of insults for our Wizard Sylvus Moonbow!


Look out everyone! :)

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited December 08, 2000).]

i uhh didnt take Imoen last time... I just wanted to be post 75... no real other reason for posting..

Ahhh, now I geddit (light goes on above head, but dimly) Grub was in Baldur's Gate visiting his auntie Slug when Irenicus's goons mistook him for Lance and kidnapped him, along with Minsc & Imoen etc. Fine.
Bugger, that means I'll have to drop out of the thread and we're still 25 off the century.

<Oboy, Fresh Meat!>

I certainly agree with total role-playing vs the story line. But (correct me if I'm wrong--I know you will!) but isn't Bioware acting sort of as a DM for this 'adventure'? And as DM they have repeatedly spelled out that the main character (you, whether you started with BG1, or started new with BG2) did, in fact grow up in CandleKeep along with Imoen. In a typical D&D setting, how much can you deviate from the DM's parameters? (I really don't know--I missed most of the early PnP D&D stuff as it was after my time <g> ) :)

Separate observation: As a charter member of "Adventurers R Us", if we (my group) took on the assignment of rescuing anyone (aside from the personal vengeance/family issues) it just does not seem that that task is complete with unlocking the cage. The rescue is not complete until we get the subject back to safety. My opinion/philosophy, of course. ;)
:D

Ughhhh

Bhaal did it with an orc.

BTW. i am going to be pissed if Magic Missiles isnt an innate ability to Imoen when she comes back.

And Syl is right,

Phyco Bob (Fighter) grew up with Imoen in candlekeep or whatever and just wondered off after BG

Phyco Bob (Monk) got kidnapped by Jon Irenicus, Imoen just came along and saved him, its a complete coincidence that there both Bhaals kids (he must get around a bit, my bio says that Phyco Bob is from Kara-Tur)

OK! Correct me if I'M wrong, but the DM in no way controls the way in which PCs play out their role; the DM presents the world and controls every aspect BUT the PCs.

Once the cage was unlocked, the subject was perfectly capable of returning to safety on her own, and said so... Rescue complete! :)

I'm leaning toward Blackthorne's point of view...Now for a little philosphy to get us to the century mark maybe...

For gaming's sake...Maybe all the Bhaalspawn are just "drawn" toward each other, kinda like the immortals in Highlander. They're all woven into the same fabric...So Imoen sensed that when your character (not a BG1 character) is saved by Imoen...She was just drawn to you in some mystical way...

It must be Friday...

*MOAN*

This topic is like something out of the Twilight Zone.
It twists and turns, meanders all around, goes up and down but in the end it winds up on exactly the same place we were, hmm what? 80 posts ago?

Geez, I wonder how long it's gonna take before it's capped by UBB. :p

You think this is a long thread? Nah, I've seen threads with several hundred posts on other UBB boards.

Blah! Next time through I'm roleplaying a pacifist. My character will not kill anyone from start to finish. And as for that whole Bhaalspawn thing, feh, I'll just refuse to believe in it. I just want to get back to dear mama in Waterdeep.

Well we aren't used to such long ones here anyway...
Usually we get to the point much quicker, unless such a debate rises as here :p

Follow this link, these are the other UBB boards I go to, this thread got over 1100 posts.
http://forums.massassi.net/html/Forum1/HTML/009706.html

Now, these forums get a lot of traffic, if you click on a thread, reply and go back to the main forum page, there will be a few new topics/updated topics.

I belive this thread must have a record number of replys.

That post is just useless one-two liners of garbage. What a waste of server space.

Syl...

A: Imoens magic missiles. Couldn't Irenicus have ordered a hidden Klingon war vessle to fire that shot framing Imoen and knowing it wouldn't hurtt him? Has anybody had a tricorder running measuring the neutronium emissions??

B: Syl, for somebody who holds such strong reservations against misusing low monster AI in combination with certain area spells (I don't even want to name them here),
you are very liberal about using BG2s very free character/alignment choice feature to its very extend. A human DM would have made it very clear to you what your part in the story is and fixed up your/Grubs personal history to fit in. The starting dialogs of BG2 do make clear, you had joint past advertures together with Imoen.

As a DM, which is all I've been in AD&D after playing a character once or twice in my starting days, I will say this.

Any good DM would never force anything upon his players or the table to fit his own story or ideas. What a DM is there for is to moderate and create a story to weave to what the character does and desires.

A DM who forces you to do something just to follow a story he spent hours on end creating is B*******. A DM is there to feed minor information to the table and those taking part and it is those reactions those players choose and decide on that the DM then acts on to create the major information. Not the other way around.

A DM creates the tales based on the characters actions.

BG2 creates a major tale and expects you to want to follow it without any character actions.

A DM should never, EVER do that! It's a big no-no to force something on a player like this. Perhaps if the player had
in his own bio before the campaign began "Torin grew up with his family but not many memories remain of where they lived
or who his family really was." In the future, the DM can work this around as he so wishes and introduce a family
member, but never before he gets that players character history.

A DM lets the player create their own history, submit it and the DM works future plots, ideas and problems for that
character down the road during the campaign, not the other way around like it's done in BG2.

Why am I, as a player, forced to take Imoen just "because she's my sister?". That's not very well done in my mind. I never
typed my bio out saying she was my sister, she's just someone who saved me. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The campaign I've been doing for the past 2 years, all I did was get an idea of who my player characters were, what
they wanted in a campaign, threw them in a tavern and had a bunch of people start casting and attacking the tavern room
when a burnt man came through the doors, fell and a red gem rolled out of his hand.

That's my campaign. Where is it going? Beats me. What is going to happen in the end? Beats me. What is the gem for?
Hell if I knew when I started the campaign although as it went on, the things my players did and said created what it was
for. My point should be clear enough and that it is the gamer who should be left
to make the choices he so wishes, do the things he so wishes and not have a gun barrel pointed at his head forcing him
to follow a story he may or may not be interested in. As for my players, they make the choices of where to go. They decide
what to do and it is I, the DM, who weaves the tale around them and make things happen. As their adventures grow and
things happen based on their actions, I work that into a story, into a campaign and make a reason for the everyone going
after the red gem all fueled on their own imaginations, wishes and desires.

This story is forced on you, which it should never be and is by far, forcing something down my throat that I, as a player, have no wish to bother with (ala Imoen). I've done my deed to the girl and will create my own story. Imoen is not my
sister. Imoen will never be my sister and never has been my sister. I was never in Candlekeep, I never will be in
Candlekeep and the only thing on Grubs mind is killing Irenicus, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm done with this thread.

Syl...

Syl is right of course, to a point. But you can't expect what you can have in p&p D&D in from a computer game. If you wanted the same kind of freedom you'd need a game engine that would be capable of making up alternate paths for just about every single action you make in the game. Something we might see in our lifetime, but definitely not for a loooong time. NWN might get close, but it's heart will still be a live DM on most servers...

CRPG story has to be made in advance and there's no way we can change that. The best the designers can do is to offer you 2 or three marginally different paths through the game (good, evil, neutral), and even that takes an enormous time to do.
And if they didn't force some parts of the plot on you, you could easily slide through the game missing 3/4 of what was placed there. You'd be done with the game in 10 hours and imagine the reaction then.

"Sucks, I paid 50 bucks for this crap and I finished it in 10 hours! Doesn't matter that I skipped just about everything in the game! They gave me that option, right?!"

So in the words of Gary Gygax, D&D CRPGs have so very little to do with true D&D that he doesn't even consider them a part of the D&D experience. Draw your own conclusions as to what that means...