Should there be a seperate class of Drow elves in the new BGIII? If so, should the alignment be defaulted to Chaotic Evil?

Yes there should and no they shouldn't.

No and no. There should be a Drow race, but not a class, and Alignment restrictions are stupid when it comes to race.


Hey, I just realized, I've passed 2000. Hell, I am even at 2010 now.

so could there be a lawful good drow paladin or cavalier Caleb? (if they allowed a Drow race in the game)

so could there be a lawful good drow paladin or cavalier? (if they allowed a Drow race in the game) They did it in Icewind Dale 2. Hell, you could play a Drow Morninglord of Lathander in IWD2. I don't see why you couldn't expect it here.

As NS said, there is always the possibility of IF. So yes, there can be paladiins in the game.

I have always found it weird that some races had alignment restrictions, I can understand some classes having it, like the paladin and rogue, but races? all drows are evil, heh that's D&D racism ;)
I hope they implant all kinds of sub races and doesn't give them alignment restrictions, that would give one a lot of options in creating your character

I can only think of one class that would be drow only and that would be a Cleric of Lloth since I don't think Lloth would bestow powers on non-Drow.

@Equester - Here are some links that adress the subject on hand. A must read. :D
http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040406.html
http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040408.html
http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040413.html

Interesting, I agree that it would free up alot of character choices. But if we were allowed, would they be subject to the weaknesses and strengths of the drow. Possible innate magic ability and/ fighting in sunlight.

They'd have to incorporate the experience penalty to offset their high stat boni and magical abilities.

Conversely, feats like sunlight adaptation that normally have no place in CRPG could become necessary.

If they're going to make more D&D games one of the things I most want to see is properly incorporated subraces. I've always wanted to play a drow and have had to settle for second-rate user modifications to do so.

I agree Chevalier, they would have to incorporate some modifications if they were to incorporate the drow properly into the game.

I belive that they should Add a Drow Race into BG3.... Don't restrict the alighnment though! for helms's sake think of all the would be drizzt's out there! and some realy cool Evil charicters as well! ristricking alignment of any race must be seen as bad otherwise it simply isnt RPG half of the Fun is Creating a charecter!

If your character is similar to charname in BGII in that he has been 'secluded' most of his/her life then you would assume that if you were Drow, Deep Gnome or any other Underdark demi-human that you would be used to sunlight and shouldn't suffer the penalties or if there is a penalty it should be a minor one.

Having Drow as one of player character races would be good way to market the game... Just imagine how many people want to play especially Drow elf.

But, in my opinion, they should allow drow characters only if they fit in the story.

Your damn right there should be drow class n maybe not restricted to just evil alignments not sure about the whole drow paladin thing not really there nature i could see a chaotic good n even neutral but couldnt see them living as a super goody goody!!

True....i think having a Drow Paladin would be taking the mick! so maby having the alighnment start from Chaotic Good instead of lawfull good..... as otherwise the drow would cease being Drow.

or just Ristrict them to being Chaotic as thats what there based on chaos.

I really can't see why the player or a important (joinable or not) npc Drow couldn't be a Paladin, the normal drow might be evil. but the players and important Npc's are not Normal, they are Special, they are the Heroes which the story evolves around, so a drow Paladin would be okay.

Part of me want to say yes to the Chaotic Evil only, but to deny the 2,000,000 Driz'zt clones. But hell, it's not a MUD is it?

BTW Race as a class really hasn't been in play since the old D&D (not AD&D) boxed sets.

Somehow I think the system in IWD 2, which let you create something like a Tiefling Paladin or a Gnome Barbarian was not too good despite the interesting specializations it offered. Maybe alignment restrictions are not very good, but I think class restrictions (like in BG II, maybe slightly more permissive) might be in order. I really can not imagine a dark elf paladin, for example, and a few priesthoods would probably be somewhat opposed to having a drow among them as well. Kinda like not having a wood elf priestess of Moradin. Drow barbarians are going to look a bit weird too, perhaps.

There could be a wood-elf pristess of Moradin actually as long as the elf devoted her entire life to the betterment of the dwarf race (highly unlikely unless the elf was raised by dwarves or something).

I really can not imagine a dark elf paladin, for example I can't see why... Drizzt is a ranger but with the exception of his being "anti-establishment" :D he fits the description of a paladin.

Can't really see that... A paladin works openly, as a part of his/her order, and for the society (which is where the lawful part of the lawful good alignment comes in). Plus, a paladin is openly recognized as a (proud) champion of the society they come from.
A dark elf would have problem with all of these. Upon finding, one would normally be attacked or, at least, shunned. While a society might, after a very long and problematic period in which patience and goodwill will be required from both parts, it is unlikely that he or she will even be viewed as their champion. A paladin order, having some face and traditions, might use their services, maybe at a later point assist them, but offering them membership is unlikely for the same reasons. On the other hand, the drow would likely have had more than enough prejudice to be willing to fight for all of society (the underpriviledhed classes, maybe). Besides, getting to the surface would entail a break with their previous society and code of values, which itself implies a chaotic bent. Another, smaller, thing - an elf's thinner frame implies using lighter weapons and especially armor, which would be unlikely among paladins who tend to follow specific "uniform" -heavy armament like plate and shield or two-handed weaponry.

All in all, it might come to be with a very compelling story, but is a bit too tricky. There are tens of other models of drow NPCs that might be much more plausible and fun. I'd really like to try a drow weaponmaster, kensai or however they call it, and a priestess of Selune or a similar deity be nice too (actually tried this in IWD II).

If I am not mistaken, and I may be, is there not the oppurtunity in either D@D rules 2 or 3 that allow the existence of an Elven Paladin or Cavalier? I cannot remember so this is not a rebuttal but a question.

Possible, I think it exists (in edition 3, at least) and in 2 there was a cavalier class for fighters, too.

Wouldn't a drow fighter make an awsome Kensai? With the Innate MR and saves? Belm +2 and Celestial Fury come to mind. Actually I was thinking wizard slayer, but kensai too.

[ October 30, 2004, 10:18: Message edited by: Deathbringer ]

You know, dude, I've been having this idea for quite some time... I dunno why, even without the bonuses that'd come with the game rules, but the notion itself has quite some appeal... Have you watched Rurouni Kenshin? A drow might look good in a role similar to Hiko - proud, sarcastic and damn good with a blade. I'd be among the first to give the idea a try. Hopefully, they'd also include some one-handed weapon fighting bonuses like in BG II or KotOR to go with the "purist" kensai class. Ah, to hear the whisper of the wind as it caresses the blade...

Well I think the idea of a Drow Paladin is a bit outrageous because of the morales (or lack there of) and culture or the Drow themselves, instead i would proprose a seperate class available to the drow race only, representing a league of dark elf heroes. this class would most likely be between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil in alignment.

Something like a fighter prestige class, you mean? The word "hero" is a bit unclear on that point... I suppose a wizard or cleric could also become one, although usually warriors tend to get all the fame, with the occasional (very rare) thief. I guess it could work both as a cross between weapon master and thief (necessary to survive for long in the chaotic environment most drow cities have) or an order that accepts different classes and develops some innate magical abilities, acrobatic skills etc.
Anyway, I think the idea of a drow bard might have a lot of appeal, but would be quite hard to put into an adventure not in the underdark, and there have been quite a bit of them recently.

I have been called a Drow fanatic. I think they are the coolest existing race and I have many of my own freestyle RPG characters as Drow. I have a guide called Plot & Poison: Guide Book To Drow that has just about everything they could find on Drow in it. From their history, to their religion/gods, other creatures they usually come in contact with, prestige classes, skills and feats, equiptment, spells/magic and items. There are core classes such as arcane archer, assassin, blackguard (Drow Paladin almost you could say) Loremaster and shadowdancer. Prestige are Blessed of Xarcon (one of the Drow gods), Creature Cultist, Dark Dancer(i have a character modeled for this one), Darksight Slayer(one modeled for this), deepsinger, dominant, dweomer defender, fate weaver, master summoner, spell addict, submissive, talion apostle, transmorph, unseen sniper, vermin outrider, and vile tormentor. The book has 200 pages of information all based around Drow. There are even Drow subraces, like half-drow, and vupdrax (kinda like a bat drow) that were created either by a wizard or normal means. The options are limitless so far. I finished reading it all but have only really made two characters directly from this. Though I will make more sometime.

The thing to remember here is the idea behind the race and the idea behind RPGing in general. In a p&p game, the DM would take this question under serious thought. The question isn't so much 'can they exist' as it is 'should I allow one in this game' and 'how much will I have to change the game to do so'. Since there is no human, on-the-spot DM, the programmers would either have to program two very different games, or base the entire game in such an environment that it would not be very disruptive, which is not likely to happen. VERY few drow even entertain the ideas of leaving the underdark or becoming good in the first place, thus there isn't really an environment you could play in where a drow wouldn't be seriously disruptive.

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary limits. The drow are typically CE the same way as dwarves are LG by default. You will always have misfits and outcasts or people who fit in but have a slightly different mindset. For example, Jarlaxle is Neutral Evil as was one of the major matron mothers before the assault on the Mithrill Hall, though I can't recall which one. Drizzt himself is CG and while he hasn't necessarily been good-aligned all the time, he's surely never been evil at any point. Similarly, Zaknafein was CN. Liriel Baenre is NG IIRC. There's the whole sect of Eilistraee (CG goddess of the good drow) and a couple of Neutral Evil drow cults other than the default CE Lloth.

Give them a separate subrace, though. Would be nice to see other elven subraces.

Look, a drow paladin could happen! ie. A C.G. special paladin class of Elistaree (sp?) with sun resistance but no lay on hands. I also say alignment restricions are idiotic. Bleedin' bananas. Alignment defaults, maybe. I also think of Jarlaxle as Chaotic neutral, even chaotic good, because of his honor code and his repeated attempts of goodwill towards Artemis.

@Chev: Liriel Baenre... I think she was mentioned in some guide, but wasn't she CN? At any rate, yeah - most drow are CE, but it's only natural that there are variations and a few are NE or CN in their own society, and most other combination out there.
I'm not very familiar with the rulebook for 3.5e, are there specific boni/penalties for subraces in it?

@Aydin: Man, if it's not LG, it isn't a paladin. The paladin is a concept that doesn't fit with every mindset, and this should be considered natural. The Dark Maiden - or tens of other duties - may have an analogous caste of temple guards or traveling fighter-priests (I think I came upon something that mentioned the blade dancers), but paladins are not only fighters blessed by their deity. The strict hierarchy they have, their organization in orders, their binding oaths and vows, the squireships, etc - these are all lawful institutions, and a chaotic individual simply won't have the heart for it. They are as much orderly fighters as they are fighters for good. There may be a prestige class similar to a paladin that can be less restrictive and more suitable for drow, i.e. the something like the NWN champion of Torm, but, well, the alignment restrictions are a part of what separates the paladins from just another fighter kit/prestige class.
Jarlaxle, hmm... CN maybe, but a guy who's primary concern is his own survival and situation is more like NE in my book. I've read only a few of the Salvatore novels, but I haven't seen him take even one action that puts him or Bregan D'aerthe in danger and doesn't benefit him.


Back on topic: I can't imagine a class that is the only choice for drow elves, but I paladins is the one thing I can't see them as. It is possible, perhaps, it might be interesting for some, but if I see a drow paladin NPC in the game i will either hit my head in something while laughing wildly or start swearing like a drunken truckster after hitting something, depending on my mood.

Not in the PH, but the various subraces are detailed in the MM.

First off, the chances of a Drow Paladin are microscopic. Even if their society somehow miraculously spewed forth a Lawful Good Drow which for some insane reason thought 'I suddenly realise i want to become a Paladin' does anyone honestly expect the Drow to ever be excepted?
Drow society and its practices and beliefs practically stand in direct opposition to everything the Paladins work for. Any Drow who went up to a Paladin and asked 'Would it be possible to join your holy order?' would either be laughed at, insulted or simply killed.
Does anyone remember what happened in BG2 when you put Viconia and Keldorn in the same party, the Paladins despise the Drow. The only reason they waited so long before they tried to kill each other was because they were following you.
The idea of a Drow Paladin is highly laughable. A Drow Blackguard maybe, but not a Paladin.

You assume a great deal. Drow have free will last I knew, they are sentient, and therefore are just as capable of becoming a Paladin as anyone else. The problem is, getting finding an order of Paladins that would allow the Drow to join them.

This is why I dislike Alignments, they are so hackneyed. It pidgeon-holes your character... oh you cant steal that food for your family because your Lawful Good!! Oh you have to run around slaying the innocent because your True Evil! Feel free to ignore the pleas of the helpless, because youre True Neutral and must preserve the balance... what a bunch of crap. lol People fall into one type of "alignment" and that is gray... very very few people are actually only black or white. D&D Alignments mioght have worked back when the game was first invented, but there needs to be a serious overhaul on it, or get rid of it entirely.

With that off my chest, I would love to see that book on the Drow, Plot and Poison. I love Drow. :)

I'm with DreamingxAshley. And just for a point, seeing a drow paladin is about as ridiculous as seeing a drow ranger.
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Wait. Nevermind. ;)

Kuemper are you mocking me? :p hehe

No, you were faster on posting what I was thinking. :thumb: I had to take a breather to be calm and rational. I was just making my own jab at how silly this 'drow cannot be paladins' argument is.

I suppose I could've put it like this:

A drow paladin is as likely as a drow ranger. :hmm:

I had to reread your comment a few times, thats why I had replied the way I did as a joke and not being serious. :)

Oh well... seems I have made quite the hide-bound nit-picking detail-loving bookworm of myself, have I ;)
Sure, alignments are open to some interpretation (and besides, imo it should be natural to take some steps not 100% decided by alignment - none of us is perfect), but I do consider a drow paladin a bit less likely. Possible, but probably it would be the DM teaching us a lesson at tolerance for glamour day or some such :D . The ranger class seems a bit more open now the alignment restriction is taken out, isn't it? In addition to that, a drow who survives a while in the Underdark might just get tough enough to survive elsewhere as well with little extra training. Speaking of which, theoretically, does the Underdark have its own rangers?

Besides, I think full plate is a bit too heavy for elves. Chain or leather fits them better ... :)

I was reading the Plot and Poison book, and there was a ranger-like class, just cant think of the name of it. There were also clerical classes to some of the deities, and there was a beast-master-like class called a Creature Cultist, or a Vermin Outrider... and then tehre was the Deep Singer, wich is basically a drow bard.

So the elves cant make full-plate armour that is suited to them huh? I think thats rather ridiculous...

The Drows in SoA has full-plated armours afair.

I agree with DreamingxAshley on the whole alignment issue. Very few real people fit into one of the D&D alignments for any more than a small portion of their lives, and it doesn't take a drastic event for them to slide a little, or a lot. As for the Drow Paladin, yeah, its as likely as a Drow Ranger, but it would have to have one hell of a background story. Drizzt's story is awesome and you would have to come at least close to that to be plausable.

I like the idea of a drow charcter and being able to choose alignments for them is good also.

Now to Paladins for 30 years i've been having the same arguments about Paladins, the alignment restrictions within the class are imo wrong.

The paladin as a class is the champion of a god so why are they only LG not all the gods Lolth herself should be able to have a Paladin as a champion they are chosen to do a particular function. Obtain an artefact for their church, remove a powerful source of good (eg Strong leader for good or neutrality) or evil (eg powerful demon/devil) from their territory. Their lifespan as a paldin would be short but glorious to inspire those after them.

I have always felt that paladins unbalanced the game forcing/pushing the morality towards good whether you wanted to go there or not.

I won't play a paladin and all the campaigns I've DM'ed the class does not exist as PC but does as an NPC for any alignment usually to hire the PC party to aid them in some cause.

I stress this only my opinion but a strong one.

I totally agree with Strider. Its just idiotic, and I wont reiterate what was said.

People just think paladin = holy warrior, and think holy = goodness... so whos to say that the Drow dont consider Lloth holy, or their clerical warriors holy?

Its just another one of those arbitrary things that got tossed in the rules without thinking it through properly.

In short the "paladin" is set to be the equalent of a "holy knight" from the middle ages type, a knight of the church, thats why it has been tied to the Lawfull good alignment. He isnt exactlly a "divie servant" as put, but a represenation of a knight for the people, the typical hero of the old legends, one that all the poor people automatically knows is a hero.

There are other classes that is aimed towards the "divine servant" type, first of all comes the Cleric, also a bunch of the prestige classes and so on. OF corse n a P&P there is nothing wrong with making an altered sort of special divine class, foreample make a similar to paladin class, but forexample worshipping Lloth and chaotic evil etc. But it would not be Paladin.

also i belive this summarise my viewon Drow in general: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=44

If thats what they wanted for Paladin, then they should have just called it a Knight, then everyone would know that the person was a do-gooder... everyone associates knight, with chivalry, and shining armour, and damsel in distress and stuff like that.

What do we have to associate Paladin with? To my knowledge, absolutely nothing outside of the RPG world. Im sure there might be *something* out there, but I worked from 3pm til about 12.45am... so Im tired...

This is the type of stuff I mean when I say arbitrary without much thought.

It would be a Paladin, because a Paladin is a hero knight for the people, according to hackneyed D&D logic, and what would a Drow Paladin of Lloth be? A hero for the (drow) people.

Well a cleric, is by definition a servant of the divine... its just another name for priestess/priest.

A drow may aspire towards the Pious Templar or Divine Crusader PrCs from complete divine or a Lloth-inspired blackguard. The templar PrC is somewhat related to the paladin , but is more closely tied to a particular deity and fulfills a very strictly-set function: defense of a holy site. The Divine crusader is another take on the idea, embodying an aspect of the deity and having access to spells of one of the deity's domains as he or she travels and spreads the good (or bad) word, similarly to a cleric.

Both may serve similar role to a paladin in drow society, but are also markedly different. A paladin need not serve any deity in particular, s/he may just have a connection to the "holy", say serve some good overmind, the lord of the seven heavens of Celestia, etc. I suppose the idea behind it was to create an idealized knight class of sorts, although a lot of time passed and a lot of changes occured in the D&D class system.

Alternatively, look at Unearthed Arcana, paladin variants. Heck, the paladin of slaughter is a drow.

[ August 01, 2006, 18:32: Message edited by: The Shaman ]

Wow, September 10, 2005 to August 1 2006 without even flinching!

I oppose the idea of imposing class/alignment restrictions based on race. Every rule has an exception, and a player should be able to be that exception if they so desire. A lawful good drow paladin is someone who utterly detests the beliefs and practices of most other drow, and is instead committed upholding the law, protecting the innocent, and showing the world that virtue and wickedness are components of an individual's personal values and integrity (or lack thereof), and not a forgone conclusion of one's bloodline.

I agree wholeheartedly Marceror!!!