All the talk of Baldurs Gate 3 got me thinking about the BG series and RPGS as a whole and one major thing that kills of my interest in a game is the treasure glut you find when you reach high level. Throne of Bhaal was a great game but the most unbelievable part of its world was how common +4 swords, magic rings, +4 bolts and arrows etc were. Treasure isnt treasure if its dotted all over the place - I couldn't be bothered picking half of it up! BG1 ended with just a few +1 weapons available and BG2 had real treasures like flail of the ages and crom faer as rare, hard to find objects at the end of significant quests. But Throne of Bhaal skewed the whole world by superweapons pouring out of every nook and cranny just because your parties were at high level. My plea to developers out there is to please make good weapons rare, valuable and hard to get. That way the game world will remain believable and balanced.

[ September 22, 2005, 13:53: Message edited by: spiritmongrel ]

I agree with you. Highly powered Magical weapons should require a hard battle with an enemy actually using the weapon or a long quest that took many hours of our time. I hate it when I can pick up a game and get a +4 or +5 weapon without my sweat or tears. That is one reason why I didn't enjoy BG2 as much as BG1. In BG2 Magical Weapons are in almost every Merchant shop and that drives me nuts. I prefer to fight or adventure for them. That is why in BG1 I never bought any magical equipment expect the Shadow Armor and the Good/Neutral Mage robes because all others would be picked up as I adventure.

I think SoA was just as bad as ToB for magic weapons, but for different reasons. In SoA, the whole direction of the game is driven by your need to pick up these awesome weapons, to the detriment of the story or roleplaying. Like killing the dragon just because you already know he has the super sword (or was it a hammer?) or going into that building just to get the wonder katana. These weapons become 'must-haves' upon playing the game again, which seems a bit silly to me.

And, yes, they are far too powerful and detract from your character's actual physical attributes and ability scores.

I don't mind if some great items are for sale at a shop so long as the price is so high that you have to give up everything else in order to be able to buy it (and there are no cheesey ways to get unlimited cash)

The first time that I really thought about this was when I played the Shadows over Sauberer mod for ToB - It was jammed packed with uber-crazy weapons and it really killed the rest of the game.

A bigger deal should be made about magical weapons and they should be a lot rarer - half way through BGII-SoA and you probably have 100+ magical weapons/items shared between your party and several dozen in your various bags. This is probably one of the main things that separates crpg's from pnprpg's. In pnp items serve as a type of character progression and items are not strewn all over the place.

That is really annoying that +4 equipment in BG2 is as common as normal equipment in BG1.

I can imagine BG3 having Full Plate Mail +10, Long Sword +12, Bastard Sword +8. And for REALLY common equipment would be +10 stuff. And don't forget rings with stuff like-

Immuneity to Mind Effects
Immuneity to Poison
+10 to Saving Throws
Immuneity to Spells from levels 1-8
Can cast Mass Heal (me thinking a IWD2 spell) 20/Day
+10 AC Bonus

Jeez I can just see that kind of ring but a lotta stuff probably would be changed....to make it better.

BTW spiritmongrel in BG1 there were a few +2 weapons (even +3 weapons if you have TotSC).

I don't mind if some great items are for sale at a shop so long as the price is so high that you have to give up everything else in order to be able to buy it (and there are no cheesey ways to get unlimited cash)*wink wink* There's the Gem/potion bug ;)

I must say that what annoys me just as much as the original in-game items are too powerful, is that every mod also *got* to have those even more powerful items. I mean take item upgrade mod! Who the heck needs to upgrade celestial Fury to a +5 (or is it 6?) weapon!?! The sword is wack as it is already. And boots of speed, rings of protect, etc, with crazy site effects? Underrepresented items mod were also very overpowered, and most item mods out there are too (not to mention all those tomes of bodily health, etc. that the emrchants just *got* to have).

But, bg3 will be 3.5 rules afair, so items will effect your char in whole other way than it does in bg2.

Powerful magic items should be hard to get, rare, and, most importantly, randomly generated when you enter the dungeon. This way, if you want a whole bunch of fire resistant stuff, you really have to work for it. These magic items should only be all over the place in dungeons like the Watcher's Keep, where hundreds of years worth of adventurers have died, leaving their equipment behind.
Also, magic equipment should be relatively unique. A powerful sword shouldn't just have +X to hit and damage, it should have character, special abilities that only one or two other items have.
I also think the player should be able to commision magic items, for massive amounts of money and taking time to make, at higher levels. All these magical items of great power were made by someone for some great warrior or another. Aren't you just as good(by the end of the game)?

They really get into it thats all i gotta say...making items is sorta fun :)

I definitely have to agree. Isn't the reason we play these games is for the struggle? The building of characters? The anticipation of finding a unique treasure/weapon that will ultimately affect the outcome of a decisive battle? I can't stand the commonality of high powered weapons and objects. It takes away from the pureness of playing an RPG game.

I disagree. But then thats just my opinion. Baldur's Gate 2 is the first D&D type game I ever played, so when I got Baldur's Gate, I was dissapointed as to the lack of magical weapons.

Wow, I just proved your point. I was so used to having them everywhere that I almost needed them. If I was around playing D&D for longer, I can almost guarantee that I would agree with you. But then I just love getting kickass equipment towards the end of games. I love being strong!

Here is something we all need to think about and realize though about Magical Weapons. First off in BG1 there were only a few monster that required a magical weapon to hit. So Magical weapons were not really need throughout BG1. Also in BG1 you could almost take down most monsters with a bow and arrow before they could even touch your character. Now in BG2 a bow is almost completely useless and most monster require magical weapons to hit, to balance this out the developers left more magical treasure after a monster is killed. This is fairly balanced considering in BG1 you could take down enemies like flies with a Composite Bow and in BG2 you can still take them down like flies but now you need magical weapons. There was balance but they did over do it just a little bit. How many +4 weapons does a group need in ToB? Not many when most of them already have +3 or +4 weapons. And does a character actually need a +6 weapon? Nope, in my opinoin.

This is my guess. If BG3 Starts off at level one than chances are we will see more of the BG1 type of game with less magical weapons. As your character goes up and levels and faces stronger foes who require magical weapons to hit, the game will give more magical treasure out.

I hope they keep the over powered weapons out or the only way to get them is to make them and that would require some mega gold.

no no, no gold. cheats, bugs it cannot be stopped
no reachable price tag. qeust yes, secret erea's that change location, aligment restictions etc those are nice to mix it with.

Well I also played BG2 before the original, and I am currently in Chapter 7 of BG1. After reading this I realized that BG1 focuses more on building your character and choosing spells more and using strategy, while BG2 focus' more on getting strong weapons for your whole team and having a hack-fest. While the stronger weapons are meant to balance the game against stronger monsters and bosses, they are in excess and are overkill, and really take the necessity of stratgy out of the game almost. In BG1 I enjoy earning my powerful weapons from challenging dungeons, or from hours and hours of salvaging rings off the ground.

There's no real sense of accomplishment in finding a +4 weapon in a barrel now is there?

I dont fully agree with a lot of oppinions expressed here...
For one I'd like to get some facts straight, there were piles of +1 and +2 items in BG1 (not including totsc), there were in fact +3 weapons (even if cursed) and to top it off a +5 "large sword" (well it was a scimitar from drizzt, but my point is it fell into such a broad category of weapons, every fighter in the game could use it).
And if you didnt like Soa because merchants sold magic items.. well you must have not shopped in BG1..
And there's no need to make such huge exagerations about items in BG2 being +4 better than in BG1...
And who the hell told you you need strategy in BG1... it's just as much hack n slash as BG2... chosing what spells, ur limited to like 2 lvl 3 mage spells, at least BG2 gives some freedom with mages, creativity if you will(tho it gets cheesy in TOB lol)..

And at the end of the day it's your pick weather to cheese or not to cheese.. sure I could make a fighter thief with a nice roll in BG1 within the first two hours reach the exp cap and have drizzts items, on my way to beating the game with some more cheesy invisibility potion/backstab strategy vs sarevok, and solo the game in no time. In fact, BG2 would take longer to beat cuz you cant get as powerful as fast. Just cuz you can do something doesnt mean you have to...
Sure you might feel like you cant live without celestial fury, but how can you live without drizzt's swords... And you dont even have to fight anyone for helm/cloack of Balduran...
Most of you make such a strong case out of BG2 being so much cheesier than BG1, I personaly think you just dont know BG1 as well as you know BG2...

Wow, impressive first post w.d. Welcome to the boards! :wave:

I fully agree with you. BG1 might have less damage resistant enemies that need magical weapons, those magical weapons are still an almost necessity because of the weapon breaking and as such I was glad there was so easy access to them (everybody in my party usually has some magical weapon within the first few hours of gaming, and that is while relaxly exploring, not rushing or exploiting knowledge about the game). I fully agree also that a game itself is not cheesy, it is the way the gamer plays that is cheesy. There is no game that forces you to abuse it.

I agree with the view that its up to players to avoid exploiting weaknesses in a game either by over-equipping or exploiting A.I. (e.g. fireballing and cloudkilling enemies who just stand there because they're just beyond vision).

What I was really commenting on was the reality of the world created in games like TOB and shadows of Amn. I never saw a justification for normal guards and soldiers having +3 weapons. Why were uber-weapons so common, but were rarely used against you? I felt flail of ages and Crom Faeyr were great in that they were an effort to get. Equally, staff of the magi meant you had to have a serious fight with some hard enemies. I just don't see why being high level means that everyone you encounter suddenly has to have a magical weapon.

I understand the requirement to hit monsters and in turn the need for them to be able to hit you as you progress, but isn't that why there are tougher monsters and tougher situations? My view is that if a game needs to proliferate magic items, then it needs to justify why this has happened - e.g Wild magic surge, exploited by enemy and their Duergar smithies produce top magic weapons. Or just something other than, oh well we need to make sure there's lots of +4 swords around 'cos we're putting a demon in the dungeon.
I mean Ok, its a fantasy world, but there's a difference between fantasy worlds and unrealistic worlds. The challenge for designers is to creat one and avoid the other.

I just don't see why being high level means that everyone you encounter suddenly has to have a magical weapon.
Well, have you ever heard the saying "One's strength is measured by the strength of one's enemies". Don't know really if it's a saying or a quote I heard in a movie or on tele. Anyway, what I meant is, the higher level you are, the greater your renown (usually) and the stronger (ie. higher level) your enemies. It is rather logical that high level parties are being attacked by equally high level enemy parties that have access to high-magic equipment too.

On the other hand, there is indeed no point in finding magical weapons on lowly goblins or animals, but regarding that, finding gold and jewels on random animals in the wild is equally unrealistic.

Concerning high magic equipment in a dungeon "just" because it has a demon or similar: try to look at it the other way. In dungeons with only weak enemies, you will find lower magic loot, because all the rest got pillaged. The more powerfull the occupation of the dungeon, the less pillaging, the more chance to find powerfull weapons in it.

But by the same token (Meatdog), surely that means that when you meet and defeat a high level dungeon denizen, then the odds are that they should have a LOAD of stuff from their previously defeated foes? Not just a Foebane +5?

I have no problem with high level enemy parties carrying lots of good stuff, as your arguement about attracting high level enemies is a good one.

I agree that ettercaps, bears and goblins shoudn't have scrolls, gems etc. That's an aspect of what I'm trying to say - i.e. I'd like designers to really think about the rationale behind what is found in the fantasy world they create. Dragon hoards, Yes,
mythical and epically strong weapons, yes. But, +3 swords on every guard standing on a street, no, a wand of magic missiles on a goblin (who doesn't/can't use it) no. Following on from meatdog's point about attracting strong enemies - I'd like to see more of that. The flail of ages was reportedly used by rakshasa to lure powerful people who they could then track down and hunt - great idea but it never happened. Imagine if you knew there were real consequences of carrying a powerful weapon - that it would attract certain enemies. GREAT - a ranger could engineer his/her own war against a species!

I agree. There is alot of potential in letting the party get attacked over possessing some weapon. But, this has indeed be done, just not on an official game. There is a mod for BG2 in which some person comes asking Celestial Fury (iirc) back from the party. If they don't, he even goes so far as to ambush the party to get it back. This is a great example of a field in which there's still much potential.

One of the great things about Diablo 2 was the sheer amount of random weapons/items you could find and collect. It just made a very simple game highly replayable because there were so many items to discover. Maybe BG3 could do with a similar random generated weapon/item element. Big bosses could drop something nice, but you were never 100% certain what would be dropped. There'd also be a chance that *nothing* nice would be dropped, so you'd have to consider very carefully whether you wanted to attack a dragon. Also the chance of a certain weapon (like Carsomyr) being dropped by a boss would be much lower than something like Sword of Chaos +2.

I think the problem with magical weapons in BG2 is that you have the 'plain' +X weapons and the legendary named weapons and a huge gap between 'em.

I mean in ToB every smith and his dog sells +4 weapons, that's just silly because i'd rather have a +1-2 weapon which does a cool thingy (like +X fire damage or immunity to X...etc) than a stupid "Hey you got +4 attack bonus when you wield that".

And then you got the legendary "Carsomyr and friends" which adds huge bonuses and even uber cool thingies, which is stupid too because by being THAT more powerful than every other weapons in the game they become 'needed', theses ones are so 'special' that you play more the weapon that your character at the end.

The topic is so true. I always liked BG1 more than 2. BG2 is really at the limit I can take magical weapons. I really like it a lot more when you start with some basic mace and splint mail and then go "wow" when you find plate mail or a magic ring. And I dislike the way some games expect you to go out and get those super weapons or else you or your team will be inadqeuate in battle. Like in Diablo 2, if you don't run killing bosses with high magic find you'll likely be a below-average weak character (because of your ****ty gear). In Morrowind I can see the reverse. If you exploit everything and search everwhere your character will become godlike compared to your enemies.

So, hopefully BG3 is a fresh start with lvl 1 characters again. :)

Finding powerful weapons and other items should be more realistic. They should never just lie around. Moreover, cutting on item power a little makes class abilities and proper application of spells shine. Imagine paladin vs fighter without powerful items being in every barrel.

when you find a magic weapon, you want to keep it. Not Oh, magic sword(again) just sell it. Good magic weapons must be earned. Like the moonblade in IWD2.

but part of the problem is the money system.

In my opinion it doesn't make a big difference if there's a lot of +4 weapons lying around if they do nothing special. Weapons with minor enchantments, but with special abilities are more powerful, depending on what those special abilities are.

Dagger of Venom is what +1 or +2, but if you have it with you, it'll take you long way with it's poison. Stiletto of Demarchess might not do so much damage, but when its magic works, it will be more of a life saver than any +4 weapon with no other enchantments.

It seems like a runaway selection, in which the designers thought it would be cool (or something) if you had these monsters with immunity to normal weapons. Then they discovered that in order to have even more tougher enemies, they would have to be resistant to more powerful enchantments, so in the end you had loads of +X weapons which did nothing else at all. It didn't change things much from bg1, except now the weapons compared to those of bg1 seemed ridiculously over-enchanted.

If there's no permanent resistances to any normal or enchanted weapons, there won't be +10 enchanted weapons lying around in every barrell either. They just made those resistances, and those more enchanted weapons, so that they -and the players wouldn't have to figure out any tactics to beat harder enemies. Now the enemies with their resistances might seem tougher, but to beat them you really need only good 'ol hack 'n slash.

Dagger of Venom is what +1 or +2 It's +2. ;)

Finaly...
Someone else who appreciates the Dagger of Venom! :grin:

Too bad it doesn't do that much poison damage...But the thing is great if you can use it properly! As a backstabbing weapon, or combined with the Stiletto of Demarchess, it's really deadly!

Alas, it's not for those who prefer the head-on approach in battles. I prefer not to get into melee, but using some guile instead...

So considering that the future of gaming seems to be in short attention span console games, the future of role playing goes more into the direction of hack 'n slash. This might mean that in future games you'll see more of those uber-powerful magic weapons. No guile, or clever thieving in there. There might be some exceptions since I'm really not on top of what's going on in the industry...

My evil thief (dualed from a level 7 fighter) in BG1 is cleaning up with the Dagger of Venom. Victims include Drizzt and the Demon Knight among hunderds of lesser foes. I never tried to take Sarevok down with the back-stab yet. That's next. I roleplay and in my other two games my Paladin went head to head and my Mage used his spells.