chevalier
Thu, 3rd Aug '06, 12:23am
Here are today's Neverwinter Nights 2 forum highlights, collected by NWVault (http://nwvault.ign.com). Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Patrick K Mills, NWN2 Production Tester</font>
A View from the Peanut Gallery: NWN2 PWs (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=489564&post=4232105&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />Morning Patrick, <hr />Good afternoon!
<hr />I'm going to start by thanking you, and everyone there for all the hard work you've been doing. I do, sincerely, appreciate it.
That said...<hr />Thanks!
<hr />I'm sure, whatever it's incarnation; I will suck it up and enjoy NWN2, as much as you will enjoy spending the money I pay for it. But please note, you’re not “giving” it to me, although feelings of you ‘sticking’ it to me are starting to surface. <hr />Actually, you completely misread what I post. I was actually paying you a compliment, as one modder to another. But read it however you like.
<hr />Quote: Unless you are giving it to me, in which case PM me for where you can ship my package, and I'll shut up about any features I don't want or wished for.<hr />I will remember, when designing games in the future, to ask you first if you want a feature. Thus I will be able to please the demographic of you, which is really what I'm concerned with.
Take note that while there was no sarcasm or smarminess in my original post, there is in this one. Right here, in the above line. I point this out so that you don't misread me again. Also note that I'm not a designer and don't plan features.
<hr />Quote: Until then, lets loose the devs are doing this out of the generosity of their own heart malarkey and be real for a second. When several other compromises I've had to make (Art style, full resting, no multiple coins, no food, DROW, etc) are partially due to market share, you can't suddenly turn around and act like you do your job purely out of love.<hr />DROW? In a Forgotten Realms game? Perish the thought.
As for the rest, no, I don't think anyone here works in this industry out of sheer love, but that's a big part of it. You may have heard about all the money there is to be made in the games industry, but most of that doesn't go to the developers. I count 0 Porches in our parking lot. I do see an unwashed Impala that has leaky tires, though.
This is a job, and we treat it as such. We have pride in our work and want this game to be good. We do not conspire in darkened, smoke filled rooms (it's California, no smoking allowed,) and plot to steal money from babies. We want to make games, and we want to make fun games. Games we enjoy, games people enjoy, and yes, purchase. Lots of copies. On one hand, it's good business, if we make a game that sells a ton, we get contracts to make more fun games- we keep our jobs. On the other hand, it's wonderful to know that a thing you made is a thing people enjoy. If you are actually a modder you know that feeling- that's what drives me and many of the people who work here. Not money. If it was money we'd be elsewhere, trust me.
<hr />Do not expect calm and passive discussion when features from a game almost 5 years old right now aren't making it into the next one and the only tid bit of good news you can give us is that we have a graphic upgrade. A huge one maybe, but really, that's the jist of it. <hr />
Features from a game that is not only five years old but has had nearly a decade of total development time, two full expansion packs and a half dozen smaller ones.
The "tid bit" comment is nonsense since I never once mentioned graphics at all. The fact is that our toolset is more robust and you can do more with it. That's on top of making things prettier, which, like it or not, is important. Our scripting language also has a huge number of new functions with which you can do things completely impossible (or at the least extremely unwieldy) in NWN.
<hr />Oh wait… a better single player campaign.<hr />Yes, it's pretty good.
<hr />Not to slight your effort on that, but in 8 months from now when you're hoping to still be moving boxes of this, is the SP campaign really relevant. Did you trade the long term game for a short term gain?<hr />"Not to slight" me? Except that you do intend to slight me and all the other developers here. That's ALL this post is about. Your condescension is overwhelming. You tell me to keep it real and not hide my motivation, but you go and play this smarmy game. Don't *****foot around, it's obnoxious.
<hr />Anyway, back to the topic at hand…
Will the NWN2 DM client and Server functions be better than a hobbyist hack to a game that wasn't built for private use? Let’s hope so. Seriously, that you even compare the two fills me with dread.<hr />If you read what I wrote, the comparison was intended to be severe, but you didn't read what I wrote, you read what you wanted to read. Evidence of Obsidian's sinister and cold-hearted plot.
<hr />Will the NWN2 DM client and Server functions be better than NWN, the source of things? This too should have been a no brainer, but it sounds more like a lateral move than an improvement. We're trading some good for some bad. The community will over come whatever didn't make it in, but those of us looking at it wonder why.<hr />I don't know anything about the DM client, I'm not involved in its development right now. Trying to glean what features may or may not be in the client from reading any posts I make is like trying to read the future looking at goat entrails.
<hr />Quote: In all this server and downloading business everyone is talking about PW and DM run games. There were some of us that just hosted modules for our play groups from time to time without the PW problems, and not using a DM.
And we too think something sounds wrong. When I'm using Version 1.01 of a mod, and my friend is using 1.10 one of us is going to have to suddenly download the whole thing before we get to play. We need to plan ahead, talk to each other and be sure we're on the same page. And everyone in the group needs to be this way. When you're running a new mod every week, this can get to be a pain.<hr />
Welcome to the real world, I'm sorry if you don't enjoy your stay. This is how nearly every multiplayer game in the world works, I can't jump into an Unreal match with an old version of the map, I can't play Civ4 with my friend if he's patched and I'm not. Despite what forum-warrior armchair programmers may lead you to believe, there are limitations to every technology, trade-offs have to be made in the development of any project, large or small, game or otherwise. This is something that everyone who has ever done anything that required long-term planning understands. That you can't understand this speaks volumes.
<hr />Is this a hurdle and not a wall? Of course. Is it nitpicky? Yep. Will we live? Sure. But when it was once better, it's hard to swallow why it can't be again.
Especially when we hear in an interview at E3 that they're way ready for a Sept release, then no DM client, now no Sept release AND no DM client, and vagaries about how servers work... Expect the natives to get restless.<hr />
Fine, be restless, be agitated, be angry if you want. But don't imply that I or my friends and coworkers are little more than cynical and lazy carpetbaggers.
<hr />I, like I’m sure many who are paying attention, are sitting and waiting. Comforting ourselves with the thought that gag orders are keeping the really tasty bits from surfacing. The proof will be on release day. Those that didn’t follow the forums will just buy the game, enjoy it for what it is, and move on. That’s a given. But those who knew what it could have been, or yet still can be, will always why they have to use crutches when we spoke up early in the process.<hr />I do hope you enjoy the game. That's sincere. If you are a modder or run a PW (your post was unclear on this point,) I wish you luck and hope that whatever you make is totally awesome, since I might be playing it.
NWN 2 Music (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=490346&post=4232124&forum=95&highlight=)
A company called Heavy Melody did the music and it's pretty good.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Patrick K Mills, NWN2 Production Tester</font>
A View from the Peanut Gallery: NWN2 PWs (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=489564&post=4232105&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />Morning Patrick, <hr />Good afternoon!
<hr />I'm going to start by thanking you, and everyone there for all the hard work you've been doing. I do, sincerely, appreciate it.
That said...<hr />Thanks!
<hr />I'm sure, whatever it's incarnation; I will suck it up and enjoy NWN2, as much as you will enjoy spending the money I pay for it. But please note, you’re not “giving” it to me, although feelings of you ‘sticking’ it to me are starting to surface. <hr />Actually, you completely misread what I post. I was actually paying you a compliment, as one modder to another. But read it however you like.
<hr />Quote: Unless you are giving it to me, in which case PM me for where you can ship my package, and I'll shut up about any features I don't want or wished for.<hr />I will remember, when designing games in the future, to ask you first if you want a feature. Thus I will be able to please the demographic of you, which is really what I'm concerned with.
Take note that while there was no sarcasm or smarminess in my original post, there is in this one. Right here, in the above line. I point this out so that you don't misread me again. Also note that I'm not a designer and don't plan features.
<hr />Quote: Until then, lets loose the devs are doing this out of the generosity of their own heart malarkey and be real for a second. When several other compromises I've had to make (Art style, full resting, no multiple coins, no food, DROW, etc) are partially due to market share, you can't suddenly turn around and act like you do your job purely out of love.<hr />DROW? In a Forgotten Realms game? Perish the thought.
As for the rest, no, I don't think anyone here works in this industry out of sheer love, but that's a big part of it. You may have heard about all the money there is to be made in the games industry, but most of that doesn't go to the developers. I count 0 Porches in our parking lot. I do see an unwashed Impala that has leaky tires, though.
This is a job, and we treat it as such. We have pride in our work and want this game to be good. We do not conspire in darkened, smoke filled rooms (it's California, no smoking allowed,) and plot to steal money from babies. We want to make games, and we want to make fun games. Games we enjoy, games people enjoy, and yes, purchase. Lots of copies. On one hand, it's good business, if we make a game that sells a ton, we get contracts to make more fun games- we keep our jobs. On the other hand, it's wonderful to know that a thing you made is a thing people enjoy. If you are actually a modder you know that feeling- that's what drives me and many of the people who work here. Not money. If it was money we'd be elsewhere, trust me.
<hr />Do not expect calm and passive discussion when features from a game almost 5 years old right now aren't making it into the next one and the only tid bit of good news you can give us is that we have a graphic upgrade. A huge one maybe, but really, that's the jist of it. <hr />
Features from a game that is not only five years old but has had nearly a decade of total development time, two full expansion packs and a half dozen smaller ones.
The "tid bit" comment is nonsense since I never once mentioned graphics at all. The fact is that our toolset is more robust and you can do more with it. That's on top of making things prettier, which, like it or not, is important. Our scripting language also has a huge number of new functions with which you can do things completely impossible (or at the least extremely unwieldy) in NWN.
<hr />Oh wait… a better single player campaign.<hr />Yes, it's pretty good.
<hr />Not to slight your effort on that, but in 8 months from now when you're hoping to still be moving boxes of this, is the SP campaign really relevant. Did you trade the long term game for a short term gain?<hr />"Not to slight" me? Except that you do intend to slight me and all the other developers here. That's ALL this post is about. Your condescension is overwhelming. You tell me to keep it real and not hide my motivation, but you go and play this smarmy game. Don't *****foot around, it's obnoxious.
<hr />Anyway, back to the topic at hand…
Will the NWN2 DM client and Server functions be better than a hobbyist hack to a game that wasn't built for private use? Let’s hope so. Seriously, that you even compare the two fills me with dread.<hr />If you read what I wrote, the comparison was intended to be severe, but you didn't read what I wrote, you read what you wanted to read. Evidence of Obsidian's sinister and cold-hearted plot.
<hr />Will the NWN2 DM client and Server functions be better than NWN, the source of things? This too should have been a no brainer, but it sounds more like a lateral move than an improvement. We're trading some good for some bad. The community will over come whatever didn't make it in, but those of us looking at it wonder why.<hr />I don't know anything about the DM client, I'm not involved in its development right now. Trying to glean what features may or may not be in the client from reading any posts I make is like trying to read the future looking at goat entrails.
<hr />Quote: In all this server and downloading business everyone is talking about PW and DM run games. There were some of us that just hosted modules for our play groups from time to time without the PW problems, and not using a DM.
And we too think something sounds wrong. When I'm using Version 1.01 of a mod, and my friend is using 1.10 one of us is going to have to suddenly download the whole thing before we get to play. We need to plan ahead, talk to each other and be sure we're on the same page. And everyone in the group needs to be this way. When you're running a new mod every week, this can get to be a pain.<hr />
Welcome to the real world, I'm sorry if you don't enjoy your stay. This is how nearly every multiplayer game in the world works, I can't jump into an Unreal match with an old version of the map, I can't play Civ4 with my friend if he's patched and I'm not. Despite what forum-warrior armchair programmers may lead you to believe, there are limitations to every technology, trade-offs have to be made in the development of any project, large or small, game or otherwise. This is something that everyone who has ever done anything that required long-term planning understands. That you can't understand this speaks volumes.
<hr />Is this a hurdle and not a wall? Of course. Is it nitpicky? Yep. Will we live? Sure. But when it was once better, it's hard to swallow why it can't be again.
Especially when we hear in an interview at E3 that they're way ready for a Sept release, then no DM client, now no Sept release AND no DM client, and vagaries about how servers work... Expect the natives to get restless.<hr />
Fine, be restless, be agitated, be angry if you want. But don't imply that I or my friends and coworkers are little more than cynical and lazy carpetbaggers.
<hr />I, like I’m sure many who are paying attention, are sitting and waiting. Comforting ourselves with the thought that gag orders are keeping the really tasty bits from surfacing. The proof will be on release day. Those that didn’t follow the forums will just buy the game, enjoy it for what it is, and move on. That’s a given. But those who knew what it could have been, or yet still can be, will always why they have to use crutches when we spoke up early in the process.<hr />I do hope you enjoy the game. That's sincere. If you are a modder or run a PW (your post was unclear on this point,) I wish you luck and hope that whatever you make is totally awesome, since I might be playing it.
NWN 2 Music (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=490346&post=4232124&forum=95&highlight=)
A company called Heavy Melody did the music and it's pretty good.