chevalier
Fri, 18th Aug '06, 7:05pm
Here are today's Neverwinter Nights 2 forum highlights, collected by NWVault (http://nwvault.ign.com). Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">J.E. Sawyer, Lead Designer</font>
Where has the Mystic Theurge gone? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492705&post=4263775&forum=95&highlight=)
The implementation time for the Mystic Theurge was literally six to eight times as long as most other prestige classes.
Personal opinion side note: all those who want to play Mystic Theurges are crazed powergamers and, in the words of James Hetfield, I dub thee "unforgiven".
More: <hr />Interesting response given one of the points I made in my post. Fairly sure I was specifically referring to the RP elements. In addition, class selection has nothing to do with power-gaming, but rather building.<hr />You lack the ability to role-play a multiclassed divine/arcane spellcaster if the mystic theurge isn't present? What role-playing opportunities does the MT offer that a cleric/wizard or druid/sorcerer does not? The MT is not part of any FR organization or background that I'm aware of.
<hr />Quote: If it really takes that much complexity to include the class then so be it. As wrote in my original post I am sure you had your reasons. Why not replace it then instead of dropping it (or has that been done and I am missing a thread)?<hr />Several PrCs originally listed for implementation were cut because our PrC list was over-ambitious given the time the programmers had available. To expand upon that, gameplay programmers are not renderer programmers, and their time is not equally balanced nor instantly transferrable. Management of time is not as simple as moving numbers around between any given set of human resources.
The warpriest and eldritch knight were implemented in place of some of the cut PrCs specifically because they were relatively easy to implement and they filled a few gaps in our lineup.
<hr />It's really that hard to do a class that gives nothing but divine and arcane caster progression of normal classes? Fair enough, but that's not promising news for the future.<hr />Yes. To allow it for single classes, it took 3 days of Andy Woo's time. In his words, trying to implement feats to grant it to multiple classes via a third (the PrC) would make things "explode" -- particularly at this stage, but also catastrophically at earlier development stages.
<hr />Quote: Ah, this old bugbear! Whether a 14th level character's most powerful clerical spell should be Neutralise Poison or not just because he multiclassed to get wonders like Ice Storm while his pure classed compatriots are casting spells like Holy Word, Ressurection and Finger of Death.
Oh well, at least we have the multiclass fixes for fighter/mages and thief/mages, I guess we can live with priest/mages being utterly unplayable jokes of characters.<hr />I'm not a big fan of any PrCs that allow multi-classers to have their proverbial cake and eat it, too, but the mystic theurge was significantly more difficult to implement than PrCs like the eldritch knight (for example).
Maximum HP at Level Up (con't). (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492862&post=4264217&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />Quote: Then again, I know that once Josh Sawyer makes up his mind, not even God himself could convince him he's wrong. So, meh, what can you do?<hr />Actually, plenty of people convince me that I'm wrong all the time. Your arguments just aren't doing it.
You're right, in PvP, the adjustment of hit points can have significant effects between characters; that's just basic observation of math. But I've never seen any indication that D&D is balanced for PvP between classes in pen-and-paper, and certainly not in the small box examples that you've given. Why a wizard is casting fireball at a singular melee opponent in a one-on-one situation escapes me, especially considering that wizards have access to spells like hold person that could instantly negate the threat and be followed up with numerous nasty attacks.
But anyway, a wizard casting fireball at a single target will often do less damage than a fighter making attacks at a single target. Cast at a group of enemies, a fireball will usually do dramatically more net damage than a fighter could.
Ultimately, the success of a wizard is almost always dependent on circumstances -- composition of enemies and prepared spell list access (plus spell completion devices). Max HP makes their direct damage spells less useful, but it's hardly as limiting as you are suggesting -- in PvP or PvE. With one or two protective spells, the wizard's defensive capabilities are excellent, even in a thick melee. Without those spells, they're in trouble. But again, that's a matter of circumstance, which I believe is far more of a factor than the difference between average and max HP.
More: <hr />I don't know...how about just the simple reason that enough players want it and don't want a sweeping global house rule change made for your campaign effect everyone else's play style? I think that's pretty simple enough actually.<hr />Putting aside the fact that this was analyzed by programming and found to be non-trivial to implement as a campaign-level flag, design by sheer populism isn't always a strong argument.
<hr />Quote: All the opponents of this have asked is for some clarification if it is hard-coded and if we can script/edit it for our style. I think by this design decision you can afford us that so we can put this to rest.<hr />It is hard coded, but I'm confident you could modify .2das or use scripts to achieve different results.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Patrick K Mills, Production Tester</font>
Combat Animations. A plea. (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492794&post=4263889&forum=95&highlight=)
Jesus Christ people, did you not even read when I posted that the animation system was entirely replaced recently?
The animations in the videos, while mostly the final animations we will be using, were not playing properly or in response to events. Since that vide was made Erik implimented a personal space system that also makes things look a lot better.
Linked combat animations like KotOR are not feasible considering the ridiculous number of weapons we have and the size differences between all the races, subraces, monsters, on top of scaling issues.
Oh god the sky is falling!! arrrgh
More: <hr />
Mostly final? How can it be mostly final in the videos and being entirely replaced at the same time? To sum up some things that are missing despite your recent posts:
1) Recoils on strike. Without a doubt its required. Its not weapon specific, but rather creature specific. nwn1 did it fine.
2) Sword on sword sparks and such with clangs and similar sound effects. nwn1 had it. it was great.
3) Dodges. Ok, you said they are coming, fine.
4) Aggressive stances and shuffling or jockeying in between attacks and parry's. No flat-footed standing!! Again, NWN1 had it.<hr />1) done
2) no
3) done, like I said
4) We have combat fidgets that replace the dance of death
More: <hr />is quite a big let down...they don't have to be weapon specific to be better than nothing...<hr />Linked combat animations that are not weapon/stance specific are, by definition, not linked combat animations. You can't have two swords clash against one another and then deliver a stunning roundhouse that squarely connects with the opponent's face if one guy has a quarterstaff and the other guy has a crossbow.
More: <hr />
And as has already been told, perhaps too few times, we love and respect you guys something fierce http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif<hr />All I demand is your love and obedience in all things. Thou shalt have no other devs before me.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">George Ziets, Designer</font>
Background (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492853&post=4264343&forum=95&highlight=)
Yup, background feats affect only Skills, and occasionally a saving throw.
More: Characters from your home village will react to your background feat, since they've known you all your life. So in the tutorial, for example, you'll get a fair amount of reaction to your background feat (some more than others, of course).
In the early part of the game, you'll occasionally get similar reactions when you run across people who've heard about you, or who knew you back in the day.
As the game goes on, your background feat will fade in importance, and instead, people will react to what you've actually done over the course of gameplay.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Erik Novales, Programmer</font>
will there be a game test button in the toolset? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492838&post=4263890&forum=100&highlight=)
Yes. We've done several things to try and make the testing process easier/faster than in NWN1. (because hey, it benefits us as well http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ) Granted, you will still probably want a beefy machine if you're running the toolset and game at the same time.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Jason Keeney, Programmer</font>
Usticke's GenCon Screenies: HOW big is an Area??? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492656&post=4264267&forum=100&highlight=)
Before you guys start to freak out on the implications of the area borders on your PW sizes.... dont. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Part of what makes the border area a border, and not just more game area, is because they do not contain the same kind of walkmesh/collision/etc data that the playable area does. Because of this they do not present any kind of perfomance impact to the server.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Anthony Davis, Programmer</font>
Cleric of...Divine Champion of... (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492754&post=4264000&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr /><hr />Look a little closer: Click Here (http://gallery.usticke.org/v/gaming/gcnwn2/CIMG4772.JPG.html) The second bottom field reads?<hr />The deity: None field? That isn't supposed to be an option for characters with divine powers/spells IIRC.<hr />He is just pointing out that the deity field was on the character sheet.
That drow is a fighter adn there for wasn't forced to pick a deity.
Combat Animations. A plea. (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492794&post=4264323&forum=95&highlight=)
I can understand people have different opinions on this, but the bottom line is the Dance of Death is NOT coming back.
Even if we WANTED to put it back, which to the best of my recollection is not true (no one here liked it), we don't have the time to put it back in.
Background (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492853&post=4264412&forum=95&highlight=)
The best thing about the backgrounds is that they customizeable through a 2DA AND they are accessible through script so that you can customize your modules and dialogs accordingly.
More: <hr />But does it also effect how npcs will react to your char? Like if your a flirt will people look at you different?<hr />Only if you script it.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Shane K. DeFreest, Community Manager</font>
Custom Content Opportuniy for NWN2 (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=483222&post=4264472&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />From the wording Obsidian uses, I don't think that they will release anything soon( after the official release)to make cc's by individuals. As for teams like DLA and so on, I think they will be limited in what they are allowed to do, or what they can release for free, to us, the broader community, or both.
Just popped in my mind, maybe Atari doesn't want any cc hitting the community to early.<hr />While it's true that we don't have any solid plans yet as to what we (Obsidian/Atari) want to do regarding post launch digital content, I can say for certain there are no plans to limit the custom content that the community can produce.
The only current limitation creating your own CC is as previously mentioned, the Granny software. What that means specifically is that under the *current* license Obsidian is using to build NWN2 the community will be limited to using existing Obsidian created animations. That being said any of those animations can be re-skinned and re-used on different creature types.
Additionally, as with the HoF project that was posted awhile ago our CC project has been put on hold until after the convention season is over and we have more time to coordinate it effectively.
Thanks for your patience.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">J.E. Sawyer, Lead Designer</font>
Where has the Mystic Theurge gone? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492705&post=4263775&forum=95&highlight=)
The implementation time for the Mystic Theurge was literally six to eight times as long as most other prestige classes.
Personal opinion side note: all those who want to play Mystic Theurges are crazed powergamers and, in the words of James Hetfield, I dub thee "unforgiven".
More: <hr />Interesting response given one of the points I made in my post. Fairly sure I was specifically referring to the RP elements. In addition, class selection has nothing to do with power-gaming, but rather building.<hr />You lack the ability to role-play a multiclassed divine/arcane spellcaster if the mystic theurge isn't present? What role-playing opportunities does the MT offer that a cleric/wizard or druid/sorcerer does not? The MT is not part of any FR organization or background that I'm aware of.
<hr />Quote: If it really takes that much complexity to include the class then so be it. As wrote in my original post I am sure you had your reasons. Why not replace it then instead of dropping it (or has that been done and I am missing a thread)?<hr />Several PrCs originally listed for implementation were cut because our PrC list was over-ambitious given the time the programmers had available. To expand upon that, gameplay programmers are not renderer programmers, and their time is not equally balanced nor instantly transferrable. Management of time is not as simple as moving numbers around between any given set of human resources.
The warpriest and eldritch knight were implemented in place of some of the cut PrCs specifically because they were relatively easy to implement and they filled a few gaps in our lineup.
<hr />It's really that hard to do a class that gives nothing but divine and arcane caster progression of normal classes? Fair enough, but that's not promising news for the future.<hr />Yes. To allow it for single classes, it took 3 days of Andy Woo's time. In his words, trying to implement feats to grant it to multiple classes via a third (the PrC) would make things "explode" -- particularly at this stage, but also catastrophically at earlier development stages.
<hr />Quote: Ah, this old bugbear! Whether a 14th level character's most powerful clerical spell should be Neutralise Poison or not just because he multiclassed to get wonders like Ice Storm while his pure classed compatriots are casting spells like Holy Word, Ressurection and Finger of Death.
Oh well, at least we have the multiclass fixes for fighter/mages and thief/mages, I guess we can live with priest/mages being utterly unplayable jokes of characters.<hr />I'm not a big fan of any PrCs that allow multi-classers to have their proverbial cake and eat it, too, but the mystic theurge was significantly more difficult to implement than PrCs like the eldritch knight (for example).
Maximum HP at Level Up (con't). (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492862&post=4264217&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />Quote: Then again, I know that once Josh Sawyer makes up his mind, not even God himself could convince him he's wrong. So, meh, what can you do?<hr />Actually, plenty of people convince me that I'm wrong all the time. Your arguments just aren't doing it.
You're right, in PvP, the adjustment of hit points can have significant effects between characters; that's just basic observation of math. But I've never seen any indication that D&D is balanced for PvP between classes in pen-and-paper, and certainly not in the small box examples that you've given. Why a wizard is casting fireball at a singular melee opponent in a one-on-one situation escapes me, especially considering that wizards have access to spells like hold person that could instantly negate the threat and be followed up with numerous nasty attacks.
But anyway, a wizard casting fireball at a single target will often do less damage than a fighter making attacks at a single target. Cast at a group of enemies, a fireball will usually do dramatically more net damage than a fighter could.
Ultimately, the success of a wizard is almost always dependent on circumstances -- composition of enemies and prepared spell list access (plus spell completion devices). Max HP makes their direct damage spells less useful, but it's hardly as limiting as you are suggesting -- in PvP or PvE. With one or two protective spells, the wizard's defensive capabilities are excellent, even in a thick melee. Without those spells, they're in trouble. But again, that's a matter of circumstance, which I believe is far more of a factor than the difference between average and max HP.
More: <hr />I don't know...how about just the simple reason that enough players want it and don't want a sweeping global house rule change made for your campaign effect everyone else's play style? I think that's pretty simple enough actually.<hr />Putting aside the fact that this was analyzed by programming and found to be non-trivial to implement as a campaign-level flag, design by sheer populism isn't always a strong argument.
<hr />Quote: All the opponents of this have asked is for some clarification if it is hard-coded and if we can script/edit it for our style. I think by this design decision you can afford us that so we can put this to rest.<hr />It is hard coded, but I'm confident you could modify .2das or use scripts to achieve different results.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Patrick K Mills, Production Tester</font>
Combat Animations. A plea. (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492794&post=4263889&forum=95&highlight=)
Jesus Christ people, did you not even read when I posted that the animation system was entirely replaced recently?
The animations in the videos, while mostly the final animations we will be using, were not playing properly or in response to events. Since that vide was made Erik implimented a personal space system that also makes things look a lot better.
Linked combat animations like KotOR are not feasible considering the ridiculous number of weapons we have and the size differences between all the races, subraces, monsters, on top of scaling issues.
Oh god the sky is falling!! arrrgh
More: <hr />
Mostly final? How can it be mostly final in the videos and being entirely replaced at the same time? To sum up some things that are missing despite your recent posts:
1) Recoils on strike. Without a doubt its required. Its not weapon specific, but rather creature specific. nwn1 did it fine.
2) Sword on sword sparks and such with clangs and similar sound effects. nwn1 had it. it was great.
3) Dodges. Ok, you said they are coming, fine.
4) Aggressive stances and shuffling or jockeying in between attacks and parry's. No flat-footed standing!! Again, NWN1 had it.<hr />1) done
2) no
3) done, like I said
4) We have combat fidgets that replace the dance of death
More: <hr />is quite a big let down...they don't have to be weapon specific to be better than nothing...<hr />Linked combat animations that are not weapon/stance specific are, by definition, not linked combat animations. You can't have two swords clash against one another and then deliver a stunning roundhouse that squarely connects with the opponent's face if one guy has a quarterstaff and the other guy has a crossbow.
More: <hr />
And as has already been told, perhaps too few times, we love and respect you guys something fierce http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif<hr />All I demand is your love and obedience in all things. Thou shalt have no other devs before me.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">George Ziets, Designer</font>
Background (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492853&post=4264343&forum=95&highlight=)
Yup, background feats affect only Skills, and occasionally a saving throw.
More: Characters from your home village will react to your background feat, since they've known you all your life. So in the tutorial, for example, you'll get a fair amount of reaction to your background feat (some more than others, of course).
In the early part of the game, you'll occasionally get similar reactions when you run across people who've heard about you, or who knew you back in the day.
As the game goes on, your background feat will fade in importance, and instead, people will react to what you've actually done over the course of gameplay.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Erik Novales, Programmer</font>
will there be a game test button in the toolset? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492838&post=4263890&forum=100&highlight=)
Yes. We've done several things to try and make the testing process easier/faster than in NWN1. (because hey, it benefits us as well http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ) Granted, you will still probably want a beefy machine if you're running the toolset and game at the same time.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Jason Keeney, Programmer</font>
Usticke's GenCon Screenies: HOW big is an Area??? (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492656&post=4264267&forum=100&highlight=)
Before you guys start to freak out on the implications of the area borders on your PW sizes.... dont. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Part of what makes the border area a border, and not just more game area, is because they do not contain the same kind of walkmesh/collision/etc data that the playable area does. Because of this they do not present any kind of perfomance impact to the server.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Anthony Davis, Programmer</font>
Cleric of...Divine Champion of... (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492754&post=4264000&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr /><hr />Look a little closer: Click Here (http://gallery.usticke.org/v/gaming/gcnwn2/CIMG4772.JPG.html) The second bottom field reads?<hr />The deity: None field? That isn't supposed to be an option for characters with divine powers/spells IIRC.<hr />He is just pointing out that the deity field was on the character sheet.
That drow is a fighter adn there for wasn't forced to pick a deity.
Combat Animations. A plea. (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492794&post=4264323&forum=95&highlight=)
I can understand people have different opinions on this, but the bottom line is the Dance of Death is NOT coming back.
Even if we WANTED to put it back, which to the best of my recollection is not true (no one here liked it), we don't have the time to put it back in.
Background (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=492853&post=4264412&forum=95&highlight=)
The best thing about the backgrounds is that they customizeable through a 2DA AND they are accessible through script so that you can customize your modules and dialogs accordingly.
More: <hr />But does it also effect how npcs will react to your char? Like if your a flirt will people look at you different?<hr />Only if you script it.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Shane K. DeFreest, Community Manager</font>
Custom Content Opportuniy for NWN2 (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=483222&post=4264472&forum=95&highlight=)
<hr />From the wording Obsidian uses, I don't think that they will release anything soon( after the official release)to make cc's by individuals. As for teams like DLA and so on, I think they will be limited in what they are allowed to do, or what they can release for free, to us, the broader community, or both.
Just popped in my mind, maybe Atari doesn't want any cc hitting the community to early.<hr />While it's true that we don't have any solid plans yet as to what we (Obsidian/Atari) want to do regarding post launch digital content, I can say for certain there are no plans to limit the custom content that the community can produce.
The only current limitation creating your own CC is as previously mentioned, the Granny software. What that means specifically is that under the *current* license Obsidian is using to build NWN2 the community will be limited to using existing Obsidian created animations. That being said any of those animations can be re-skinned and re-used on different creature types.
Additionally, as with the HoF project that was posted awhile ago our CC project has been put on hold until after the convention season is over and we have more time to coordinate it effectively.
Thanks for your patience.