chevalier
Thu, 22nd Feb '07, 9:48pm
Here are today's Neverwinter Nights 2 forum highlights, collected by NWVault (http://nwvault.ign.com). Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end. Click the "read more" link to see posts which include spoilers.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Rob McGinnis</font>
Thank you! (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549811&post=4827353&forum=109&highlight=)
Well... can't have a happy community member.
*shouts off to the side* Alright boys! Bring in the stickies! http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
What Skills Are Bugged (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549800&post=4827440&forum=109&highlight=)
Added to the sticky.
When reporting skill issues, it helps to list the way you think the skill should work, and then list what the problem is now. Thanks.
1.04 issues with AMD XP and AMD 64 users (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=546308&post=4827550&forum=109&highlight=)
If you guys haven't tried yet, try removing your RAM and putting it back in. Maybe clean the contacts on the RAM.
I can't wait for class discussion Blackguard (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549818&post=4827442&forum=109&highlight=)
Could be a while. That's a prestige class. We need to finish the other classes first. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
More: It's a Prestige Class in PnP as well.
You might also compare it to NWN1, since it follows that implementation closely, if I remember correctly.
More: hmmm... why do I feel like the delivery boy for the butcher shop, surrounded by hungry dogs?
Personal Attacks (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549286&post=4827627&forum=109&highlight=)
In all fairness, the threads that provide positive feedback are hijaked by the opposing side as well.
No threads are ever locked because of a negative viewpoint toward the game. There are plenty of those around, pretty much in all forums. By far, the majority of those are still open.
And, even if it was just one person that starts the flame-fest, others jump in. So the blame for thread lock-down can be evenly distributed. Both sides flame each other.
If you ever feel that a thread is locked down unfairly, just contact me or that Chris Priestly guy that lurks around here.
More: <hr />Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you guys not do exhaustive testing?
I think part of the problem is that it seems that everytime there is a patch to fix stuff, things that were working break.
My game not once repeated anything until patch 1.03, it didn't once crash or freeze up until patch 1.04.
So I ask again do you guys do exhaustive testing so it doesn't break what was working fine in the game?
Thanks<hr />Yes we do... and that is one of the community complaints because it takes us so long to get patches out.
We also release a beta version of patches to the community because, as the launch illustrates, we cannot account for all the different hardware combinations out there.
So, we do the beta and gather the feedback from the community. Once we have the issues fixed that the community reports, we release a full version of the patch. If no one in the beta crashes, then we won't know of any crashes.
So you see, we are all in this together, and things are never as easy as they should be. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
More: <hr />Exhaustive testing Rob? Extensive testing I'll grant you, but are you really saying that you test all phases of a software change (unit, integration, and system level) for all possible inputs and outputs for NWN2 before a release, even for a single system configuration?
My guess is one of us misunderstood what he was asking, but in my experience (and understanding of the state of software development), exhaustive testing is one of those red herring arguments: short of proving program correctness (yeah, good luck with that for any developer http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ), people point to exhaustive testing as the only way to assure a program is "correct", but attempting it on anything moderately complex or above is basically impractical.
Of course, if you truly are doing exhaustive testing in the classical sense, I give you (Obsidian) full props for doing it with a game, even one as complex (I'd go so far as to call it a development stystem) as NWN2.
J
[Edit: I miss my spell checker http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ]<hr />Semantics.
I don't think you will find any company that does "Exhaustive" testing.
The term "exhaustive" could have two connotations when it comes to software testing: the first, means you find all the bugs - which is pretty much impossible. How do you know when you've found all the bugs? It's not like the last one holds a sign (go ahead: thry to tell me you didn't picture a little cartoon bug standing there holding a sign).
If by "exhaustive" you mean where we have been testing so long we see double and pass out at our desks, where the hour hand on our watch has passed the same number twice, and then some; Where you have four meals at your desk and aren't sure which meal is next; when the soda machine was just refilled that day, yet all the sold out lights are lit... yes, we have and still do "exhaustive" testing. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
NWN2 vs NWN1 @gamerankings.com (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549119&post=4828821&forum=109&highlight=)
<hr />In regards to NWN1, the keyword that still strikes me to qualify NWN2 is restriction, not improvement.
Restricted in number and size of areas because of memory footprint and limited tileset interior options. Large walkmesh files have to be downloaded separately by players on MP servers.
Restricted in shape and animations of creatures because of poor design decisions (ugly female player characters, boring combat animations, Granny 3D). NWN2max is still a sweet dream.
Restricted in user-friendlyness because even if the features exist, they are in no way implemented in a satisfactory manner (no undo for the toolset terrain building, clunky in game camera and inventory management, etc.).
Beyond any bugs that will hopefully be patched in the future, there was NO improvement in how the AI handles the companions or the enemies.
There was NO improvement in how the process of adding content (2DA files, tilesets, creatures, placeables, armors) is managed, making it faster, more stream-lined and intuitive to the end-user (ever try to add an item to a NPC in the toolset ?).
There was NO improvement in how Obsidian documented their toolset, their file models, not to mention in how official tools or plugins are released so that we could directly benefit from them. Everything is still left to the community to create through reverse engineering, home-made plug-ins and tutorials.
No matter how you look at the above, NWN2 in its current state leaves a depressing impression of something that should have been done with more understanding of the community around it, single-players, multi-players and builders. It should have been tackled with more foresight of what the game will be in a couple of years down the road, to allow tools and "extensions" to grow on it like NWmax and the CEP/CTP for NWN1, and guide motivated custom content creators or authors in getting there. There should be more of a "vision" to it, like Bioware had for NWN1, Blizzard for World of Warcraft or Sigil for Vanguard, even if it means that the game no longer caters to some not so "die hard" players like me.
No one will expect a game to be perfect at release, but everyone will look closely to determine if it has the potential to meet their expectations soon after. If it doesn't appear clearly as such, they will simply look elsewhere.
NWN1 was open-ended, simple and yet powerful to use. My plea is to give the "NWN game" back to the gamers (or at least making it more user-friendly, and build up again from there) with one of the following (huge) patches.<hr />Just seeking clarification on a couple things:
1. The areas you say there is no improvement.. That leads me to understand you are saying that because NWN2 is the same as NWN1 in these areas it is worse, correct?
2. You say we should "give the 'NWN game' back to the gamers." Please explain what you mean and how we should accomplish this.
3. You mention we should have a vision for the game. To you, what should the vision of the game have been?
More: <hr /><hr />(quote)Posted 02/20/07 08:56 (GMT) by Nissa_Red
and a more flexible outdoor terrain system (as long as you aren't making huge persistent worlds) would seem to make the game better for PnP-style campaigns.<hr />On this point, the new toolset is harder to build, you could build a simple PnP style module (i.e most thing handled by the DM not scripting as a PW needs) with minimal scripting in an evening and play it the next, I doubt you could put together a reasonably high quality single area in an evening with NwN2<hr />I would agree. But I would also say that with the NWN2 toolset, you could create an area of NWN1 quality in about the same time you created it in NWN1.
More: <hr />The point is that you do not want to do an area in NWN1 quality with NWN2.
NWN2 is much like the brush to the painter and NWN1 was a pencil with autopilot.
But I'm really impressed what you can do with NWN2 when you take time to play with all those little triggers and gears.
Just tell me one thing:
Your exterior areas are so cool and you can shape so wonderful areas so easily. But why did you do the interior areas with tiles? It's such a drawback.
I should be able to texture and color interior areas. I should be able to paint burned walls, marble floors and wooden ceilings.
I want high rooms, halls or huge caverns. I want pits and big holes in the floor.<hr />My understanding is that tiles were used because the game is still based on the aurora engine at its core.
With the toolset, those effects are possible. Burned walls would require a billboard-styled object.. that way you could put blaster scoring on a wall in a sci-fi mod.
Marble floors are possible with a floor placeable. Some people have already done this. Same with wooden ceilings.
All of that stuff is possible and much of it has been done to one extent or another by community modders. Some has not been released yet, but I think you would be impressed by the amount of comunity content out there or in the works already.
More: <hr />I know. I've been working with such placeables in NWN1 for years. But this always feels like a walkaround, a tweak to me. And all rooms remain squares, rectangles or that kind.
I remember Ultima Underworld (so many yers ago). This dungeon was so natural, with climbing tunnels at all directions you can imagine. Rooms over rooms. The world "feels" different.
I can do my best to tweak thigns with placeables (what I already do) but I still wish to have more freedom - the same freedom you give me at the surface.<hr />Unfortunately, overlapping walkmeshes won't be possible until the engine gets a complete overhaul or rewrite from the ground up. The core remaining of the aurora engine does not allow for a vertical plane.
I wouldn't expect that in NWN2.
More: <hr />I would actually be more than content if the ease of controlling your character, and character customalisation (armour appearance) would be implemented.
I dont mind if Spell X doesnt do what it supposed too.. or that feat Z still needs a fix. But please give me back the smooth control feel and an Unique character I can customise as my creativty would love to see it.
This is part community content, I agree.. but also some Control and freedom changes in the engine, I think.<hr />Some of this we can fix and some we may not be able to. The "feel" of character control can be a very subjective thing. In patch 1.05, I believe, we have slowed down the turn rate by about 50%.
Make a link to patch info (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549924&post=4829146&forum=109&highlight=)
<hr />Yes please. It would be awesome to have a page that's always updated with the latest patch information.
I'm sad to say I've not yet started playing properly as I really want to wait until everything works as it should. I played up until Act 2, and I loved it that far, but I'm still going to wait until all feats and spells work as intended, and I look weekly for new patch information.<hr />You might want to look into some of the community mods. There are a lot of spell fixes and additions already out there. Anything we do has to go through a more formalized process and, as such, takes longer to get out to you guys.
Read More... (http://www.nwvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=26745)
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Rob McGinnis</font>
Thank you! (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549811&post=4827353&forum=109&highlight=)
Well... can't have a happy community member.
*shouts off to the side* Alright boys! Bring in the stickies! http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
What Skills Are Bugged (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549800&post=4827440&forum=109&highlight=)
Added to the sticky.
When reporting skill issues, it helps to list the way you think the skill should work, and then list what the problem is now. Thanks.
1.04 issues with AMD XP and AMD 64 users (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=546308&post=4827550&forum=109&highlight=)
If you guys haven't tried yet, try removing your RAM and putting it back in. Maybe clean the contacts on the RAM.
I can't wait for class discussion Blackguard (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549818&post=4827442&forum=109&highlight=)
Could be a while. That's a prestige class. We need to finish the other classes first. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
More: It's a Prestige Class in PnP as well.
You might also compare it to NWN1, since it follows that implementation closely, if I remember correctly.
More: hmmm... why do I feel like the delivery boy for the butcher shop, surrounded by hungry dogs?
Personal Attacks (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549286&post=4827627&forum=109&highlight=)
In all fairness, the threads that provide positive feedback are hijaked by the opposing side as well.
No threads are ever locked because of a negative viewpoint toward the game. There are plenty of those around, pretty much in all forums. By far, the majority of those are still open.
And, even if it was just one person that starts the flame-fest, others jump in. So the blame for thread lock-down can be evenly distributed. Both sides flame each other.
If you ever feel that a thread is locked down unfairly, just contact me or that Chris Priestly guy that lurks around here.
More: <hr />Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you guys not do exhaustive testing?
I think part of the problem is that it seems that everytime there is a patch to fix stuff, things that were working break.
My game not once repeated anything until patch 1.03, it didn't once crash or freeze up until patch 1.04.
So I ask again do you guys do exhaustive testing so it doesn't break what was working fine in the game?
Thanks<hr />Yes we do... and that is one of the community complaints because it takes us so long to get patches out.
We also release a beta version of patches to the community because, as the launch illustrates, we cannot account for all the different hardware combinations out there.
So, we do the beta and gather the feedback from the community. Once we have the issues fixed that the community reports, we release a full version of the patch. If no one in the beta crashes, then we won't know of any crashes.
So you see, we are all in this together, and things are never as easy as they should be. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
More: <hr />Exhaustive testing Rob? Extensive testing I'll grant you, but are you really saying that you test all phases of a software change (unit, integration, and system level) for all possible inputs and outputs for NWN2 before a release, even for a single system configuration?
My guess is one of us misunderstood what he was asking, but in my experience (and understanding of the state of software development), exhaustive testing is one of those red herring arguments: short of proving program correctness (yeah, good luck with that for any developer http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ), people point to exhaustive testing as the only way to assure a program is "correct", but attempting it on anything moderately complex or above is basically impractical.
Of course, if you truly are doing exhaustive testing in the classical sense, I give you (Obsidian) full props for doing it with a game, even one as complex (I'd go so far as to call it a development stystem) as NWN2.
J
[Edit: I miss my spell checker http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ]<hr />Semantics.
I don't think you will find any company that does "Exhaustive" testing.
The term "exhaustive" could have two connotations when it comes to software testing: the first, means you find all the bugs - which is pretty much impossible. How do you know when you've found all the bugs? It's not like the last one holds a sign (go ahead: thry to tell me you didn't picture a little cartoon bug standing there holding a sign).
If by "exhaustive" you mean where we have been testing so long we see double and pass out at our desks, where the hour hand on our watch has passed the same number twice, and then some; Where you have four meals at your desk and aren't sure which meal is next; when the soda machine was just refilled that day, yet all the sold out lights are lit... yes, we have and still do "exhaustive" testing. http://forums.bioware.com/_commonext/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
NWN2 vs NWN1 @gamerankings.com (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549119&post=4828821&forum=109&highlight=)
<hr />In regards to NWN1, the keyword that still strikes me to qualify NWN2 is restriction, not improvement.
Restricted in number and size of areas because of memory footprint and limited tileset interior options. Large walkmesh files have to be downloaded separately by players on MP servers.
Restricted in shape and animations of creatures because of poor design decisions (ugly female player characters, boring combat animations, Granny 3D). NWN2max is still a sweet dream.
Restricted in user-friendlyness because even if the features exist, they are in no way implemented in a satisfactory manner (no undo for the toolset terrain building, clunky in game camera and inventory management, etc.).
Beyond any bugs that will hopefully be patched in the future, there was NO improvement in how the AI handles the companions or the enemies.
There was NO improvement in how the process of adding content (2DA files, tilesets, creatures, placeables, armors) is managed, making it faster, more stream-lined and intuitive to the end-user (ever try to add an item to a NPC in the toolset ?).
There was NO improvement in how Obsidian documented their toolset, their file models, not to mention in how official tools or plugins are released so that we could directly benefit from them. Everything is still left to the community to create through reverse engineering, home-made plug-ins and tutorials.
No matter how you look at the above, NWN2 in its current state leaves a depressing impression of something that should have been done with more understanding of the community around it, single-players, multi-players and builders. It should have been tackled with more foresight of what the game will be in a couple of years down the road, to allow tools and "extensions" to grow on it like NWmax and the CEP/CTP for NWN1, and guide motivated custom content creators or authors in getting there. There should be more of a "vision" to it, like Bioware had for NWN1, Blizzard for World of Warcraft or Sigil for Vanguard, even if it means that the game no longer caters to some not so "die hard" players like me.
No one will expect a game to be perfect at release, but everyone will look closely to determine if it has the potential to meet their expectations soon after. If it doesn't appear clearly as such, they will simply look elsewhere.
NWN1 was open-ended, simple and yet powerful to use. My plea is to give the "NWN game" back to the gamers (or at least making it more user-friendly, and build up again from there) with one of the following (huge) patches.<hr />Just seeking clarification on a couple things:
1. The areas you say there is no improvement.. That leads me to understand you are saying that because NWN2 is the same as NWN1 in these areas it is worse, correct?
2. You say we should "give the 'NWN game' back to the gamers." Please explain what you mean and how we should accomplish this.
3. You mention we should have a vision for the game. To you, what should the vision of the game have been?
More: <hr /><hr />(quote)Posted 02/20/07 08:56 (GMT) by Nissa_Red
and a more flexible outdoor terrain system (as long as you aren't making huge persistent worlds) would seem to make the game better for PnP-style campaigns.<hr />On this point, the new toolset is harder to build, you could build a simple PnP style module (i.e most thing handled by the DM not scripting as a PW needs) with minimal scripting in an evening and play it the next, I doubt you could put together a reasonably high quality single area in an evening with NwN2<hr />I would agree. But I would also say that with the NWN2 toolset, you could create an area of NWN1 quality in about the same time you created it in NWN1.
More: <hr />The point is that you do not want to do an area in NWN1 quality with NWN2.
NWN2 is much like the brush to the painter and NWN1 was a pencil with autopilot.
But I'm really impressed what you can do with NWN2 when you take time to play with all those little triggers and gears.
Just tell me one thing:
Your exterior areas are so cool and you can shape so wonderful areas so easily. But why did you do the interior areas with tiles? It's such a drawback.
I should be able to texture and color interior areas. I should be able to paint burned walls, marble floors and wooden ceilings.
I want high rooms, halls or huge caverns. I want pits and big holes in the floor.<hr />My understanding is that tiles were used because the game is still based on the aurora engine at its core.
With the toolset, those effects are possible. Burned walls would require a billboard-styled object.. that way you could put blaster scoring on a wall in a sci-fi mod.
Marble floors are possible with a floor placeable. Some people have already done this. Same with wooden ceilings.
All of that stuff is possible and much of it has been done to one extent or another by community modders. Some has not been released yet, but I think you would be impressed by the amount of comunity content out there or in the works already.
More: <hr />I know. I've been working with such placeables in NWN1 for years. But this always feels like a walkaround, a tweak to me. And all rooms remain squares, rectangles or that kind.
I remember Ultima Underworld (so many yers ago). This dungeon was so natural, with climbing tunnels at all directions you can imagine. Rooms over rooms. The world "feels" different.
I can do my best to tweak thigns with placeables (what I already do) but I still wish to have more freedom - the same freedom you give me at the surface.<hr />Unfortunately, overlapping walkmeshes won't be possible until the engine gets a complete overhaul or rewrite from the ground up. The core remaining of the aurora engine does not allow for a vertical plane.
I wouldn't expect that in NWN2.
More: <hr />I would actually be more than content if the ease of controlling your character, and character customalisation (armour appearance) would be implemented.
I dont mind if Spell X doesnt do what it supposed too.. or that feat Z still needs a fix. But please give me back the smooth control feel and an Unique character I can customise as my creativty would love to see it.
This is part community content, I agree.. but also some Control and freedom changes in the engine, I think.<hr />Some of this we can fix and some we may not be able to. The "feel" of character control can be a very subjective thing. In patch 1.05, I believe, we have slowed down the turn rate by about 50%.
Make a link to patch info (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewpost.html?topic=549924&post=4829146&forum=109&highlight=)
<hr />Yes please. It would be awesome to have a page that's always updated with the latest patch information.
I'm sad to say I've not yet started playing properly as I really want to wait until everything works as it should. I played up until Act 2, and I loved it that far, but I'm still going to wait until all feats and spells work as intended, and I look weekly for new patch information.<hr />You might want to look into some of the community mods. There are a lot of spell fixes and additions already out there. Anything we do has to go through a more formalized process and, as such, takes longer to get out to you guys.
Read More... (http://www.nwvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=26745)