First of all i want to greet the old friends here since i have been away for some time due to heavy work schedule. Most probably i will pop in and out since i still continue at this rate.
Anyway, i have a question regarding mainly the European citizens of the forum. As you all most probably know Turkey is about to start negotiations with the EU in order to join this large community. But there are (as always) some disadvantages that make this event something worth spending some gray cells.
For me some of these are the following:
1) Turkey is not a European country. Granted one small part of her is, but the majority of Turkeys lands are Asian.
2)The way Turkey is treating her European perspective is, to say the least insulting, arrogant.
3)I can't really see any benefit from this join-up.
I would really like to hear (read in this case) the opinions of the members of this board for this one. Not only on what i think (since the above statements are just a slice of my thoughts).
And i would really be interested to hear any opposite thoughts on this subject.
Thank you for your time.

Sorry, I'm off for the evening. I remember a similar topic from last year with Boc which may make some interesting reading to start you off. We've probably lost some visitors since then.

http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/34/92.html#000000

And here I was hoping for some good recipies....

@ Carcaroth
Things have changed since then and the problems are not quite the same. I am troubled with more current events not only the known reasons.
Turkey is going to start a long road towards an unknown goal, as things are now.
I am not only hoping to see the point of view of not only the EU members of this forum. In fact this one affects US also since US is paying a lot to Turkey for a strategic reason that now does not really exists.
In fact the date Turkey took from the EU counsil as the beginning of negotiations was partly, in fact, an outcome of the pressure US exercised.
And don't forget that if Turkey joins the club the kind of relationship between Turkey and US must and will change.

Strategically Turkey would be a good to have as a jump-point into the Asian and Arab countries. Even though western countries are already sort of being allowed to use turkey as such, one could fear that they would only take ever so much.

A have some concerns about implementing Turkey into EU. 1st of all is their somewhat vague valuation of human lives and civil rights. Torture is still widely used, and accepted in Turkey, and even though they might try to hide this from their would be co-countries of EU, they really can't.
Another issue is that a vast (majority?) number of Turks are Muslims. I have nothing against a Turkish membership because of the Muslim popularity, but rather because they value a lot of things (especially in the above mentioned civil/human rights issue) differently from Europeans, and most western societies (North America).

When some (I think it was 12 or 15 :confused: ) eastern European countries recently joined the EU, it felt much more natural to me. After all we share history and culture in a way we don't and probably never will with the Turks.

I really don't know fer sure yet, wether I support a Turkish membership or not. But if they do join, I do not think it would be anytime soon. There's simply too many political parties in EU that are against giving membership to Turkey.

Actually, the only thing, that has changed, is that the failure of the EU constitution has forced many european leaders, who were positive or neutral towards a full turkish membership, to change their stance and become more sceptical or even negative.

Also, the Cyprus issue has become a powerful weapon for those who don't support the full turkish membership. The turkish refusal to recognise the Republic of Cyprus has created a legal and a logical paradox (you can't ask to join an organization when you don't recognize one of its members) and has put Turkey or better the Turkish government in a dilemma, which is a lose-lose situation. If they don't recognize the Republic of Cyprus, they will never manage to gain a full membership and all the efforts they have made towards this direction will be in vain. If they recognize the Republic of Cyprus, they will see the total collapse of a policy, that they have followed for 30 years, and they will have to face a huge political unrest inside Turkey by the army and the nationalists. Also, the recognition doesn't give them the full membership because another paradox will be created, a country asks to join an organization when its army occupies territories of one of the member states and this will be the next weapon for those who don't want Turkey in EU.

I can't be doing with Turks.

Can't be doing WHAT with Turks, Barmy?

When some (I think it was 12 or 15 ) eastern European countries recently joined the EU, it felt much more natural to me. After all we share history and culture in a way we don't and probably never will with the Turks. Most countries in Europe share a history with turks ( wars moustly ,at one point the turks oumost took Viena ) so this argument does not stand ,the turks have problems but if they will solve them why wodent they enter UE

I think that argument is just perfectly valid. While many European nations had - and, of course, continue to have - dealings of all sorts with Turkey, that hardly makes her a part of Europe's cultural sphere. Never mind all the other reasons standing against permittance of those loudmouths into our club.

Most countries in Europe share a history with turks ( wars moustly ,at one point the turks oumost took Viena ) so this argument does not stand ,the turks have problems but if they will solve them why wodent they enter UE My argument went on that we didn't share history with the Turks in the same way as the eastern European countries. I know that Turkey (or rather the Ottomans) gave Europe a lot of troubles, and occupied amongst others most of Spain once. But if you want to argue wether we share cultural history due to wars, then Europe share cultural history with the entire world. We have after all been in war with all of them. All the way from the Arab countries in the crusades of 1000-1300 a.d., and the explorers in 1400+ a.d....
Heck you can go back to the roman Empire as long back as ~1000 b.c. and find Europeans meddling in worlds affairs.

Also, you can draw parallels to modern day. America has been, and still is in war with many countries around the world. But that doesn't mean that they share historical cultural values with neither Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, or any other country on the oh so very long list of different countries...

[ September 02, 2005, 03:31: Message edited by: olimikrig ]

If it was not for the Ottomans, you would not have coffee :coffee:

Things have changed since then and the problems are not quite the same. I am troubled with more current events not only the known reasons. To be honest, I haven't picked up on any major changes through my normal news outlets (i.e. the BBC. My arguments remain the same as they did in the previous thread. Firstly the Cypriot thing needs to be resolved, which it won't without Turkey changing it's policy. Secondly, I need to be fully convinced that the country have reached the same standards of human rights as the rest of the EU. Free speech for example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4205708.stm

I don't see how US involvement changes anything from the EU prospective (Maybe from Turkey's) and I never accepted religious, geographical or economic reasons (which haven't changed anyhow) for forbidding entry.

I think that having Turkey as a member in the EU is important for the development of EU as well as the development of Turkey. Turkey is needed for religious solidarity to silence the ultra conservative christians who wish Europe to be a bastion of christianity. I'd assume this to be important for all the muslims in Europe too. Turkey is also needed for the workforce, the population of Europe is growing older and if we ever get even some kind of free movement of workers Turkish workforce will become very important for the European economy.

Then the problems. The failiure of the EU constitution is a symbol that the people are having difficulties in swallowing the first expansion and I think it's time to take it easy for a while and not to expand too fast and further feed the chaos in EU. Then there are also the problems with Cyprus and human rights. I think Turkey can manage to get their human right issues in control since I don't think they have any illusions about EU accepting them as members if they don't do so. Cyprus on the other hand has a lot of bad history between the Greek population and the Turkish population. I feel that ideal solution would be to unite Cyprus, but we're still very far from that happening. In the end for Turkish membership an solution will be necessary though.

If the problems are dealt with I think Turkey can be a member within ten years but if not then it will be bad all around. Turkey will not appreciate being tossed around like a tennisball between membership and nonmembership. No partial membership will in my opinion be possible.

Turkey is a secular country, so religion is not a problem, and they strictly enforce such views. Though they have abolished the death sentence recently, they have not carried out an execution for a very long time.

I think the Euro countries that don't like Turkey have a lot of Kurdish residents, as their passports say Turkish, rather than Kurdish. Ireland has a large Turkish and Kurdish population, and there is distinct differences between the two.

If it was not for the Ottomans, you would not have coffee :coffee: And for that I hail them :thumb:

They also introduced peaches, almonds, most sweets, and were among the major proponents of sanitation. So frankly, they might have contributed more to "European" culture than many others.
Frankly, I don't believe religion will be such a big issue as Turkey is a fairly secular country. If they resolve their issues with the Kurds and Cyprus, I don't think there's such a big problem accepting them in the EU. Besides, Turkey has already made some concessions, if it continues to be held at the door and then finally shown the middle finger that might turn many Turks to radical and anti-European sentiments.

Also, you can draw parallels to modern day. America has been, and still is in war with many countries around the world. But that doesn't mean that they share historical cultural values with neither Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, or any other country on the oh so very long list of different countries... Well when America will have 1000 years of continuous occupation of Iraq there will probably be some cultural exchange ,the only reason why we dont have a much more comun culture is the fact theat turks did not tried to destroy a countries culture(did not tried very hard like some european countries )

[ September 06, 2005, 00:38: Message edited by: Incarnate ]

Actually, in few places they did. I invite you to come over in the Western (and Eastern, for that matter) Rhodopas.

trayed to acaparete Sorry, my brain is not working too well on a Friday afternoon. I couldn't quite grasp your meaning.
To you mean Tried or Trade? And I'm afraid I've no idea about acaparete, closest I can get to is incorporate (as in to include).

Well when America will have 1000 years of continuous occupation of Iraq there will probably be some cultural exchange ,the only reason why we dont have a much more comun culture is the fact theat turks did not trayed to acaparete a countries culture(did not trayed very hard like some european countries ) Cultural exchanges is not the same as sharing cultural history. The fact that one nation might adapt some cultural aspects doesn't mean that they that they'll think any way alike.

European countries has adapted a lot of different aspects of American culture, but there's still a big difference between being European and American.

I'm sure that accepting Turkey in the European Union will also have it's benefits. FX, the religious issue I mentioned earlier. Christians and Muslims in Turkey had for some time now lived side-by-side with each other. We could clearly learn a lot from the Turks, considering that more and more European countries are slowly turning into multi-national and multi-religious countries. As Morgoroth mentioned Turkey would also be a much welcomed workforce.

I'm afraid you think I'm condemning Turkish membership. That I don't! Despite whatever end, I believe that something should be done quickly. As I myself mentioned earlier, and as Morgoroth said, Turkey might not accept being tossed around, and will only take ever so much.

@Cararoth sorry , I don't spell very well :o (especially when I'm in a hurry)

First of all, turks are not European. The only European thing they have about them is stolen Orthodox land which should be returned to Greece, or, at the very least, to an Orthodox major Country such as Russia.
It is funny some people argumented the point of "common History heritage" with the likes of turks on the basis that they almost conquered Viena. How stupid is that? As far as I know, constant Wars and strife does not account for a positive aspect for integration.
Culturally, there is nothing European in turkey or turks, for the matter.
They have zero regard for laws, and constantly violate so called "human rights". They are into the "business" of trading Slavic women as sexual eslaves, for which they shall respond soon, if they dont start to behave like proper human beings.
Economically, they can barely add anything positive to Europe.
As for geopolitics, the EU can have turkey as an "ally" without the need of welcoming them to the Union, as they do now.
Western Europe does not need turks work force either. This is a nonsensical and fallacious common place leftist politicians use to justify bringing over millions of immigrants. Why is the unemployment rate in some Countries in the two digits scale? Other than that, arent there millions of people willing to do these jobs from the newly integrated Eastern European Countries?
As it is now, does not Western Europe have enough turks already?

The only European thing they have about them is stolen Orthodox land which should be returned to Greece, or, at the very least, to an Orthodox major Country such as Russia. This has to be the most laughable claim I've ever heard in the Alley. Russia has no claim over Turkish terretory nor has Greece. What do you expect will happen if every country (or religion for that matter) will start claiming terretory that has been lost for them for five hundred years or so? :rolleyes:

Culturally, there is nothing European in turkey or turks, for the matter. You really should skip the prejudice and read facts. Ataturk made Turkey very European in its culture and quite successfully so. The Turkish political and sociological structure of Turkey is probably more European than in some European countries.

They have zero regard for laws, and constantly violate so called "human rights". They are into the "business" of trading Slavic women as sexual eslaves, for which they shall respond soon, if they dont start to behave like proper human beings. The human rights issue must be dealt with and Turkey has expressed its willingness for reforms and the government has taken a tougher stance towards violation of human rights. Improvement is still needed but the direction is right. Oh and Russia for example is also doing a fine job in trading Slavic woman as prostitutes.

Economically, they can barely add anything positive to Europe. Gee, really? Turkey's economy is in firm growth. Something that can't be said about most countries in Europe. Sure it's poorer than the current members. But it's also important for numerous resons. Not the least because a lot of our oil comes through Turkey and that would be a lot more secure if Turkey was an EU member.

Western Europe does not need turks work force either. This is a nonsensical and fallacious common place leftist politicians use to justify bringing over millions of immigrants. Why is the unemployment rate in some Countries in the two digits scale? Unemployment is a multi layered problem which you are grossly oversimplifying. Immigrants do not create unemployment, they very often take jobs that we lazy west europeans who are too comfortable with our luxuries would not take. Immigration naturally creates its own problems, but with proper arrangement and agreements it can very well be controlled without having an "overflow" of Turks in Europe. They feared that same thing happening when Estonia joined EU in here, and it did not happen, I believe that those who fear an overflow of turkish immigrants are just paranoid.

As it is now, does not Western Europe have enough turks already? No, I personally think we have too many racist nationalists and overzealous christian fanatics who will try to find every excuse there is for keeping Turkey away from EU. Turks on the other hand are more than welcome. I see no reason not to have more of them. They are in general as hardworking and honest as the next European.

Oh and Russia for example is also doing a fine job in trading Slavic woman as prostitutes. Not to mention that Russia's view on human rights ain't much to brag about either. We've all heard about mutilated people gotten their ears cut off (I actually remember Puttin telling some french journalist that he new some guys i Moscow who'd be more than willingly to castrate him :shake: )

Immigrants do not create unemployment, they very often take jobs that we lazy west Europeans who are too comfortable with our luxuries would not take True enough! Sometimes I can't even imagine why immigrants even bother! I mean we've got tons of highly educated immigrants working low jobs in convenient stores here in Denmark.

They feared that same thing happening when Estonia joined EU in here, and it did not happen, I believe that those who fear an overflow of Turkish immigrants are just paranoid. I can't say that I agree with you on this one! After the implementing of Countries like Estonia in EU, Denmark has been overthrown with cheap eastern European craftsmen who takes the job from Danes. This is because we got so high taxes (40-50%) that you, FX, can hire Estonian workers for much lower prices as long as they don't resident in Denmark. Besides, more and more business' are moving out and into eastern European countries with lower taxes, cheaper work forces, and a much lighter view on environment control.

Not that I fear that a turkish membership will increase these problems by far (if in any way).

will start claiming terretory that has been lost for them for five hundred years or so? *Cough* Israel after second world war...

The only European thing they have about them is stolen Orthodox land which should be returned to Greece, or, at the very least, to an Orthodox major Country such as Russia Ah , Mother Russia , always willing to liberate some new territories

This has to be the most laughable claim I've ever heard in the Alley. Russia has no claim over Turkish terretory nor has Greece. What do you expect will happen if every country (or religion for that matter) will start claiming terretory that has been lost for them for five hundred years or so? Didnt Israel regained lost terriotory after a much longer time, on the basis of "holy land"? Constantinople is holy land to Orthodoxy as well. Despite, I have little regard for your comment. It os a matter of time before Constantinople comes back to the Orthodox World, even if take a little while.


You really should skip the prejudice and read facts. Ataturk made Turkey very European in its culture and quite successfully so. The Turkish political and sociological structure of Turkey is probably more European than in some European countries. No, Ataturk was anything but sucessful doing so. To begin with, islamism is incompatible with European Culture.
Not only that, turks do not look European; do not behave like Europeans; have a different mind set all together, etc.
I would be curious to know which "political and sociological" aspects make turkey European.
Now, where is that quote of mine from a British traveler to turkey? I will have to find that out.

The human rights issue must be dealt with and Turkey has expressed its willingness for reforms and the government has taken a tougher stance towards violation of human rights. Improvement is still needed but the direction is right. Which direction is that? turkey has been disregarding human rights over and over again. Promises have been flying for a long while, but no results so far.
Anyway, do you really think the EU cares for human rights? Are you stupid or what? If the EU cared for "human rights", they would not accept nazi Baltic states that treat the Russian minority - which is not quite a minority, being up to 30% of the population in Estonia for instance - like if they were not even human beings. Not only that, their goverment keeps praising their SS "National Heroes".

Oh and Russia for example is also doing a fine job in trading Slavic woman as prostitutes. I dont view myself as a particularly violent individual, but if you told that to my face, I would most certainly smash your Finno-ugric half brain.
To begin with, these poor women travel abroad to places like turkey and israel on the promises of honest jobs, only to be enslaved there.

Gee, really? Turkey's economy is in firm growth. Something that can't be said about most countries in Europe. Sure it's poorer than the current members. But it's also important for numerous resons. Not the least because a lot of our oil comes through Turkey and that would be a lot more secure if Turkey was an EU member. turkey is not a rising economy. Maybe in your delusional mind, but they are far behind any European Country, and their growth pales in comparison with Countries getting back to their feet.

Unemployment is a multi layered problem which you are grossly oversimplifying. Immigrants do not create unemployment, they very often take jobs that we lazy west europeans who are too comfortable with our luxuries would not take. Immigration naturally creates its own problems, but with proper arrangement and agreements it can very well be controlled without having an "overflow" of Turks in Europe. They feared that same thing happening when Estonia joined EU in here, and it did not happen, I believe that those who fear an overflow of turkish immigrants are just paranoid. As I said, jobs you "lazy Western Europeans" dont want to take, could as much be done by the people from the newly integrated Countries.
It is funny to note, despite your empty leftist rhetoric, these problems generated due to immigration have been only getting worse. Race riots in England, constant conflicts in France, Italy, violence, difficulty to adapt to local Culture, to name a few.
Paranoid? There are millions of turks in germany already, and they are not even a member yet.

No, I personally think we have too many racist nationalists and overzealous christian fanatics who will try to find every excuse there is for keeping Turkey away from EU. Turks on the other hand are more than welcome. I see no reason not to have more of them. They are in general as hardworking and honest as the next European. Oh yes, we evil and hateful racists who want to keep our Culture and National order. Even worse the "overzealous Christian fanatics" who are fighting against the destruction of Christendom.
I could as much say, leftist internationalist fanatics like you will find find whichever excuses to welcome turkey now into the EU, and probably another half of the World which have nothing in common with Europe, in a few decades.
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Not to mention that Russia's view on human rights ain't much to brag about either. We've all heard about mutilated people gotten their ears cut off (I actually remember Puttin telling some french journalist that he new some guys i Moscow who'd be more than willingly to castrate him [grinning, shaking head] ) I think you are misreading the news. beheadings, cut offs are practices commonly used by chechens and their muslim kin.
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Ah , Mother Russia , always willing to liberate some new territories Only those which are due.

And I think that you're blinded by your prejudice.

And I think that you're blinded by your prejudice. Why is it that people turn to prejudice accusations when they are out of arguments? Because it has an emotional appeal?

[ September 04, 2005, 08:15: Message edited by: Svyatoslav ]

Bacause you're arguments runs on religious values rather than political.
Moreover you have a quite racist approach to the entire subject.

Bacause you're arguments runs on religious values rather than political.
Moreover you have a quite racist approach to the entire subject. Get your facts straight. We are discussion the likeness of turkey and Europe. We are discussing Culture. Last time I checked religion was a big part of one's people Culture. Thus, it is only natural to bring religion to the discussion.
There is nothing racist on my post, unless you are bloody sensitive on anything which is not 100% political correct.
All in all, turks are eternal enemies of my people, and not too long ago they were opressing my Balkan Slavic brethren. I have no reason to support them at all.

They are into the "business" of trading Slavic women as sexual eslaves, for which they shall respond soon, if they dont start to behave like proper human beings.
You clearly live in an illusionary world if you believe that such things ain't going on all over the world! Who do you think these enslaved women are being sold to? It's western European countries where fat midleadged men are more than happy to screw whatever comes along their way, as long as it doesn't cost more than a dollar or two. Who do you think runs these so-called "business'"? Everyone from would-be mobsters to happily fet family fathers!


nazi Baltic states that treat the Russian minorityIt's rather the Russian government that undermines and tyrannizes their own minority. Despite whatever your delusional brain might conjure up, Russia has tyrannized it's minority for ages! I mean come on! Have you ever seen a picture of a Chechen subdued to Russian interrogation?

I could as much say, leftist internationalist fanatics like you will find find whichever excuses to welcome turkey now into the EU, and probably another half of the World which have nothing in common with Europe, in a few decades.The word paranoia comes to mind :mommy:

We are discussing Culture. Last time I checked religion was a big part of one's people Culture.Maybe, but that is imo not a foundation on which you can void Turkish membership to EU.

All in all, turks are eternal enemies of my people, and not too long ago they were opressing my Balkan Slavic brethren. I have no reason to support them at all. And that says it all! See the hypocrisy? Not racism nor prejudice, yet still you condemn Turkish membership based on preconceived opinions, and wrap it nicely up in your pseudo-religious bs!

I truly am deeply sorry for whatever the Turks might have done to harm you and your kin. Yet the fact that all is said with so strong preconceived opinions as you have, make all discussion meaningless. Some of your statements I would regarded as being 100% correct, however the fact that they're filled with so much hatred makes them seem rather vague; and you like a delusional and paranoid barging dog.

As mentioned above: All further debate seems futile. Feel free to reply however, if you feel a strong urge to get the last word. I probably won't reply back unless a see some drastic changes (Which I'm possitive won't happen).

You clearly live in an illusionary world if you believe that such things ain't going on all over the world! Who do you think these enslaved women are being sold to? It's western European countries where fat midleadged men are more than happy to screw whatever comes along their way, as long as it doesn't cost more than a dollar or two. Who do you think runs these so-called "business'"? Everyone from would-be mobsters to happily fet family fathers! I am quite sure there are millions of Western Europeans having sexual relations with "Russian" prostitutes - by the way, 80/90% of "Russian" prostitutes and the ones from marrying agencies are not Russian, but some National minority, like tartaro-mongols, chuvash, Bashkirs, etc. However, this business of sexual enslavement is something happening in israel and turkey, not Western Europe.

It's rather the Russian government that undermines and tyrannizes their own minority. Despite whatever your delusional brain might conjure up, Russia has tyrannized it's minority for ages! I mean come on! Have you ever seen a picture of a Chechen subdued to Russian interrogation? Dude, dont run your ignorant mouth on issues you have no idea about. Typical self righteous Western BS! Now lets for the facts. We have around 160 minority groups, all of them enjoy full rights, and most have their own republics. Most of these groups dont count over 1000 people, so if we wanted to exterminate or assimilate them no one would even notice.
Not only that, if we are so mean to our National minorities, why is it that people like the Ossetians asked to join Russian Federation? The Armenians asked as well, and they have their own free Country - by the way, have you ever heard about the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the "European" turks? No? I didnt think you did.
You know, even after WWII, and what the germans did to us, we still allow their minority - which has been here for centuries - to live here.
As for the chechen bastards, you are really clueless. They have been terrorizing our population for ages! They are always beheading our innocent people, bombing, etc.
By the way, after the first War against the chechens, they did have independence, but they decided to invade our territory! Of course you did not know that, but you probably think you are some sort of specialist in Russian affairs reading your russophobic media.
I could go on and on, but I think my point has been proved quite enough. In the other hand, nazi baltics prohibit even that our people vote, learn our own language, etc.
Now do yourself a favor and be sure to know what you are talking about, if you dont want to look like a fool next time.

The word paranoia comes to mind [scared] The word reality check comes to my mind. Maybe you should get a grasp of what has been going on.

Maybe, but that is imo not a foundation on which you can void Turkish membership to EU. Yes, because Culture is such a small part of one's people. :rolleyes:

And that says it all! See the hypocrisy? Not racism nor prejudice, yet still you condemn Turkish membership based on preconceived opinions, and wrap it nicely up in your pseudo-religious bs! Preconceived opinions? No, I base my opinion on historical observance of a people that has been throughout centuries acting like savage animals, and not once contributed positively to Europe - coffe, sure :rolleyes:
There is no pseudo-religious BS. They are muslims, which makes them non-European at first sight.
Furthermore, I based my opinion of being against their entry in much more aspects than this you point out.
Ultimately though, I am not European, so I could care less, as long as your Brussels burecrauts dont mess with my people, which you seem to love doing so. It is to your own demise after all.


I truly am deeply sorry for whatever the Turks might have done to harm you and your kin. Yet the fact that all is said with so strong preconceived opinions as you have, make all discussion meaningless. Some of your statements I would regarded as being 100% correct, however the fact that they're filled with so much hatred makes them seem rather vague; and you like a delusional and paranoid barging dog. Typical. Sound 100% correct, but yet, as you seem to perceive them as "bigoted", they are not to be considered. Last time I heard, correct statements should be considered, wether they be prejudiced or not - and mine are not.
I dont see how I am being paranoid either.


As mentioned above: All further debate seems futile. Feel free to reply however, if you feel a strong urge to get the last word. I probably won't reply back unless a see some drastic changes (Which I'm possitive won't happen). Feel free to drop the discussion whenever you feel crushed.

*sigh* :toofar:

@ Svyatoslav and olimikrig

Anything more like what I've seen above, save it for PM. And if one you has the placed the other on his ignore list, well ... too bad. I don't want to see anymore this animosity. I mean it.

EDIT: Svyatoslav is going to get a warning from me about issues other than his dialogue with olimikrig. :shame: :nono:

[ September 04, 2005, 11:56: Message edited by: Beren ]

Russia has no claim over Turkish terretory nor has Greece Who said that we have no claim? According to the axiom that greek territory is every territory that greek soldiers have put their foot on, we claim Southern Italy, Southern France, Egypt, Minor Asia, Iran, Iraq, Albania, F.Y.R.O.M., Israel, Palestine, Southern Serbia, Southern Bulgaria and Syria. Have I forgotten something? Ah, yes, Korea, we sent a battalion there in 1950, so this territory belongs rightfully to us too. :D :p

All in all, turks are eternal enemies of my people, and not too long ago they were opressing my Balkan Slavic brethren. I have no reason to support them at all. Well if people in all countries Russia had war with wold fell the same...
I belive that Russia made a much better job then Turkey at opressing countries

Well if people in all countries Russia had war with wold fell the same...
I belive that Russia made a much better job then Turkey at opressing countries If you think so you are free to PM me, and I will gladly, and easily disprove your claim. It will have to be through PM though, as a moderator already asked to stop this discussion.

@BOC:
Well, considering you (the Greek people) were at the basis of the Byzantine Empire, you could count northern Bulgaria too (for a while, don't get cocky :D ) as well as practically all of Asia minor, the Near East, Crimea, part of Italy... Yep, it was an empire, allrigh ... Still, we'd get most of the Aegean, save for Solun / Thesalonica (never quite managed to capture it, too bad), Macedonia, some of Serbia, most of Thrace and, if the khanate counts, most of Romania and Hungary. Hey, we also got around ;) Cool, huh? Actually, from a nationalistic point of view, I'd be happy enough if we just kept our pre-WWI boundaries. Alas for broken nationalist dreams...

@Svyatoslav: Considering Turks never captured Moscow and murdered its boyars, never islamized the Urals and never captured a Russian czar, and especially as Russians never paid the infamous "blood tax" - and were probably the only Orthodox people that lucky - I don't think you can speak of them as historical enemies. Panslavism is well and good, but man, I don't think I've made a man in my hometown with so much hatred for the Turks. If you're looking for a historical enemy, the Tatars would be a more expected choice. Anyway, some of the your opinion on Turkey is simply wrong - most whom I've spoken to are quite secular, and their economy isn't that bad (beats the Bulgarian one, unfortunately). So, bottom line: I'm not exactly rooting for Turkey to go in the EU, but it might be handy - at least they'd have to behave on the way to and in it. Especially as if Turkey is shown the middle finger, all matter of fundies can break loose. That I can do without, trust me. Last thing I want are conservative mullahs pulling the strings in Ankara.
All in all, Turkey has a big minority problem - the Kurds, but I can't quite accept Russia is that blameless either in that regard when it comes to some Muslim minorities. And as for the Chechens, come on, man, them invading Russia? Like, how do you see that happening, unless you count them participating in the civil war as invasion, please post a link (neutral one, if possible), as I'd be interested in that. The one thing I remember from history related to them was that Stalin settled them in their current territories, and they weren't really enthusiastic about it. IMO, today both sides there have too much blood on their hands to speak of moral high ground.

I don't know what all the fuss is about, most of em already live in western Europe anyway, might as well join the club. :D

And besides, does it really matter ? The EU is doomed to fail anyway, in a few years things will be back to normal and we'll happily wage war on eachother again, in good old fashioned European tradition. :D

Would you mind hurrying it up a bit...the History Channel is nothing but repeats!

LNT, I didn't get that... what does the History Channel have to do with all this?

Well, the history channel, as well as Discovery channel for that matter, show the same WW2 documentaries over and over again. Everyone who tunes in to such a channel, has probably run into the same footage of the battle of Kursk, Stalingrad, El Alamein, Monte Casino, etc....

He's probably looking forward to footage of new fought battles, like in the near future. :D

:whoa:

Appetite for destruction - both in Europe and the US! We should work with that, shouldnt we?

As it would seem that some Europeans have grown tired of peace, we might as well put this bloodlust to some good use.
So... in the past Turkey was bent on conquering Europe. Instead of ruining our continent once and for all, I propose we return that favour. I mean, really, they want to be a part of Europe so badly. Lets speed up the process. The time is just right! Think about it. Our American friends have given a fine example with Iraq.

Everyone would be happy, no?

Europe could vent off its destructive urges. It might even bolster our economy... Turkey can finally enjoy the benefits of the West she so longs for (freedom, democracy, what have you). And the US, well... has some exciting news to drool over and, on top, can rest assured she has given the best of examples with the 'liberation' of Iraq. We do not even have to fabricate a reason for war - like the threat of WMDs or something. Turkey occupies European territory...
Looks perfect to me!

What are Turkey's natural resources other than Doner kebab ? Is it worth the effort ? :D

Well! If nothing of worth can be had in Turkey, it would at the very least bring us closer to the regions rich in oil. :p Who knows what the next step would then be. The US, after all, could do with some 'assistance' in the Middle East. :shake:

The Shaman, sorry for the late reply, but I was off for the country.



@Svyatoslav: Considering Turks never captured Moscow and murdered its boyars, never islamized the Urals and never captured a Russian czar, and especially as Russians never paid the infamous "blood tax" - and were probably the only Orthodox people that lucky - I don't think you can speak of them as historical enemies. Panslavism is well and good, but man, I don't think I've made a man in my hometown with so much hatred for the Turks. If you're looking for a historical enemy, the Tatars would be a more expected choice. Yes, because we kicked their asses. :p Anyway, the fact they did that all to my Slavic Brethren from the South harms and saddens me the same way.
As for the tartars, we dealt properly with them a long time ago. :) talking about Tatars, the puppet goverment from Ukraine appointed a Buryat as Prime Minister! :mad: they never cease to amaze me, but that is a different discussion...

Anyway, some of the your opinion on Turkey is simply wrong - most whom I've spoken to are quite secular, and their economy isn't that bad (beats the Bulgarian one, unfortunately). So, bottom line: I'm not exactly rooting for Turkey to go in the EU, but it might be handy - at least they'd have to behave on the way to and in it. Especially as if Turkey is shown the middle finger, all matter of fundies can break loose. That I can do without, trust me. Last thing I want are conservative mullahs pulling the strings in Ankara. As I said before, I oppose Turkey entry for the said reasons, but the choice is for the Europeans to make when it comes down to it. My only concern is that Slavs are joining the EU now, so it is starting to bother me...
By the way, I would not care if muslim radicals get the upper hand in Turkey. Fighting an open enemy is always better than combating a disguised treat.

All in all, Turkey has a big minority problem - the Kurds, but I can't quite accept Russia is that blameless either in that regard when it comes to some Muslim minorities. And as for the Chechens, come on, man, them invading Russia? Like, how do you see that happening, unless you count them participating in the civil war as invasion, please post a link (neutral one, if possible), as I'd be interested in that. The one thing I remember from history related to them was that Stalin settled them in their current territories, and they weren't really enthusiastic about it. IMO, today both sides there have too much blood on their hands to speak of moral high ground. Yes, I have a link, a Western source mind you. http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,201588,00.html
As you can see, as stupid and pathetic as it may seem, they decided to invade Russian land after they got what they wanted.
These people dont know law or civility. There is no way to deal with them with any human decency.
Regards.

Some of the comments here are interesting, but I thought some could use the interjection of facts.

The EU's 2004 GDP -- so far as you can use that term with the EU -- growth rate was 2.4%.

Turkey's was 8.2%.

The EU's GDP per person was $26900. Turkey's was $7400.

The EU's unemployment rate was 9.5%.

Turkey's unemployment rate was 9.3%.

The CIA World Fact Book -- which is where I got these numbers -- does not list a poverty figure for the EU, but it says 20% of Turkey is below the poverty line.

EU's inflation rate was 2.1%. Turkey's was 9.3%.

So basically Turkey is growing very quickly, but it started from a much poorer rate and still has a long way to go to catch up to the EU average. It does not, however, have a lot of unemployed people -- at least no more so than the European average.

Does any of that really matter?

I think the confusion is due to a lack of criteria for what is necessary for EU membership. If it were solely economic considerations, then many of the most recent admittees should have been left out. If it is solely geography that determines eligibility, then the answer should be obvious.

Well, there is still the matter of human rights...they don't care all that much about that topic overthere. That, plus the "issue" Armenia seem to be the biggest problem.

Well, I will not try to argue with the likes of nationalistic racist morons like Svyatoslav. I personally believe that Turkey will never enter the EU. Because of the fear Western countries have of Muslims. A fear that has become hate. A hate that is fueling the recent international paranoia. A fear that is also taking away the rights of their citizens, rendering some of the recent laws fascistic. Here in France Muslims are called islamistes something that has aquired the semantic of virus or plague.

Turkey is more tolerant than you would think. During the Ottoman Empire, Jews that fled the Middle Age Inquisition found refuge in the Empire. There is still a large community of descendants still living in Turkey. The countries the Empire used to invade were allowed to keep their religious faith and languages. More recently, Atatürk gave the right to vote to women in 1930. This is 6 years earlier than the UK and 17 years earlier than France. The orthodox Papaz (Pope) lives peacefully in a small island off Istanbul. Nobody ever bothered him. Turkey is also a laic democracy. Many European countries are still monarchies.

Turks are not Europeans they originate from Central Asia, there is still a Turkish community in China. The language is syntaxically similar to japanese, korean or finnish. As for natural ressources they have half of the World's ressources of boron a costly element which has a lot of high-tech uses ranging from aerospace to medicine.

I think the Greek fellows above hate Turkey because them Greeks were kicked out of the territories in Turkey they managed to occupy after WWI. One must not overlook how they treat the Turkish minority still living in Greece: sub-humans discriminated from important jobs with absolutly no right to complain, shut up dirty Turk. One just has to read some of the above comments to imagine the situation.

This is the reason why Northern Cyprus was invaded quickly and efficiently in 1974, to free the oppressed minority. A referendum has been recently taken to reunite Cyprus but Greeks idiotically refused it majoritarily for no reason except their hate. What they probably want is all the community to leave or die.

There is also a greek community living in Turkey, they have never been bothered. You can't say the same of the Kurdish community. Their autonomous zealotry have mostly been financed by England and France. They would have loved to create a puppet Kurdistan in between Irak and Turkey. Giving them a shortcut to petrol. Unfortunately for them Bush has found a faster but not as elegant route.

Turks and Greeks have no reason to hate each other. They share a common history. They have almost the same cuisine. They play tavla (backgammon) while drinking the same coffee and liquor. The Greek government is by the way supportive of the adhesion in the EU.

The situation used to be in a lesser degree similar in Bulgaria. When in the early nineties they opened their frontiers, half a million Turkish descendant crossed the border in a matter of days, because they were so sick of 70 years of mistreatment (compulsory name changing, discrimination, no liberty of cult). A tent city had to be improvised in Edirne(major city near the Bulgarian border).

Turkey has no buisness joining a EU that has a hard time inventing ridiculous reasons to refuse them. Why would anyone want to join somebody that doesn't like nor respect you because of your differences? Turkey is also a highly capitalistic country which explains.

@Phase Demon

The orthodox Papaz (Pope) lives peacefully in a small island off Istanbul. Nobody ever bothered him Really? I think that you forget the Grey Wolves hanging doll like patriarch or the continuous attempt of the turkish state to steal the property of patriarchate or the refusal to operate the theological school.

I think the Greek fellows above hate Turkey because them Greeks were kicked out of the territories in Turkey they managed to occupy after WWI. One must not overlook how they treat the Turkish minority still living in Greece: sub-humans discriminated from important jobs with absolutly no right to complain, shut up dirty Turk. One just has to read some of the above comments to imagine the situation First of all, I don't hate you even if many of my compatriots do, and this hate doesn't originate from the events, which followed WWI, it's much older. As for the minority, it's not totally turkish, many of them are muslim pomaks. As for the discrimination issue, although I admit that there is some prejudice, there is nothing like that you describe. They are greek citizens with full rights, they have representatives in the parliament, they have special schools where they are taught both languages, they have religious freedom, they are more than 250000 and their number is increasing. Can you claim the same thing for the greek minority in Turkey?

This is the reason why Northern Cyprus was invaded quickly and efficiently in 1974, to free the oppressed minority. A referendum has been recently taken to reunite Cyprus but Greeks idiotically refused it majoritarily for no reason except their hate. There was an oppression of the turkish minority but that wasn't the cause of the invasion. If that was realy the cause, could you explain why does Turkey have still more than 40.000 troops and heavy equipment on the island, why has it created a false state that only Turkey has recognised, why thousands immigrants from eastern Turkey have been brought on the island?

There is also a greek community living in Turkey, they have never been bothered Then I guess that there is a metaphysical reason, which is responsible for the reduce of the greek community in Constantinople (Instabul for you) to 2500 people from 125000 and to almost 200 from 6000 in the island of Imvros and Tenedos (sorry, I don't know their turkish names). The massacre of 1955 organized by Menderes must never happen. Also, the same metaphysical reason must explain why the turkish state has a huge number of convictions from the European court of human rights for its attemps to steal the property of the greek community in Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos.

Edit:
Turkey is also a laic democracy. Many European countries are still monarchies.A democracy where the army can take decisions about the foreign and the domestic policy, it's not exactly a democracy. Also, the european monarchies that you are reffering to, are constitutional monarchies where the king or the queen are functioning more as a symbol of tradition and unity than as actual figures of political power.

[ October 01, 2005, 14:29: Message edited by: BOC ]

Phase Demon, name-calling and accusations of hate, all in one post? That's almost enough to bar you from AoLS for life.

So do yourself a favour and read the AoLS rules sticky before you post again, or your next post might be the last one you make in AoLS.

Don't even bother I was going to leave anyway as I'm not the kind to regret or retract what I said. Here's for the so-called free speech.

Well farewell Sorcerers. I'll let you happily macerate in your fantasy worlds.

You're obviously not the kind to read and respect any rules either, so good luck finding a community to suit your personality.

Yeah well...uhh....yo mama so old her birth certificate is in Roman numerals! Take that! Erm...

Well, as a real Turk who lives in Turkey, I do believe I have some right to say a few things:

First of all, thanks to Phase Demon, who gently PMed me about this topic going on. I do believe he said the right things, perhaps in a furious way, too bad he is gone I will miss him.

Anyway, I can not believe the prejudice and sheer hatred to Turks in this subject, and knowing it also comes from our neighbour Greece really pains me. I never hated Greece, or Greece people, nor I blamed them for what they did in WW, and I am sure most of my people think like me. Sure, our countries have battled fiercely, and we were able to save our lands from bitter invasion, but I think it was not Greece's fault, merely other 'bigger' powers were using them; and no one can blame us neither, we are neither barbaric, savage, nor war-liking. We only protected ourselves in WW, and I thought things have changed since then.

Talking about Greece, we share a lot of things in common, and I beleieved things had been improving between us. It saddens me that old prejudices and hatred are still boiling, and I just hope that it is still little plays of the 'bigger' powers at work, I do not want to see Greece as our enemy.

There was a very old saying in Turkey, ''The only friend of a Turk is another Turk'', but I am happy to find some other friends here, special thanks to everybody who defended my country and people here with their friendly posts.

As for the EU, we are doing our very best to join, but know that our chances are slim. Sure we are not perfect, but which country is? At least we are working hard for improvement. It is essential for everybody to know that we are far, far different than other muslim countries. We have democrasy, and since Ataturk we have been developing rapidly and willingly to reach the modern culture. And I think we are not far from it, Turkey is a developed country worthy of EU, as I said maybe we have flaws, but not wanting us becasue of the pure prejudice and old hatred is just not fair, to say the least. We bore no ill will against any country, government or people as Ataturk said ''Peace at home (country), Peace in the World''. But we do not flinch to protect ourselves if need be, just like any other country.

Forgive my limited English, I just wanted to share my idea. If it offends you in some way or other, it was not my intention to do so, mind you.

And all the time I thought it was Austria that were balking at Turkish entry...

Interestingly, according to the BBC website, a greater percentage of the Greek population support Turkish membership than both French and German.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4305500.stm

But it woould appear a deal has been reached. Over to Ankara.

Well, Phase was way off on the history -- the idea that the Greek Orthodox were never bothered is ridiculous, so kudos to whomever corrected him.

But more to the point -- it is ancient history. We have to look at what is going on right now.

The Greeks (as a whole) may never love the Turks (as a whole), but that has very little to do with letting Turkey join the EU -- or with whether individual Greeks love individual Turks. I do not much care for Parisians as a whole, but I am certain that I would get along famously with certain ones, and if I meet one on the streets I do not automatically assume that I will dislike him -- and I have no problem with cooperating with Parisians in mutual self-interest.

As I see it, the outstanding issues are the recognition of Cyprus (Turkey must recognize only one goverment there), human rights violations by the State, and the actions of Turkey's military.

But what do I know? I am only an American.

I do not much care for Parisians as a whole Its funny how someone can 'not care' for a nation, until they meet a pretty girl/handsome man...

Turkey can only be good for Europe. Some people are concerned about 'religious differences', but Turkey is a secular country, and its strictly enforced, and as for human rights, Turkey gave women the right to vote during the 1930's. Lets not forget their wonderful food, culture, rich history etc. I can think of very few disadvantages of allowing Turkey. If you look back, Ireland was a bad choice for the EU, as they were being 'breast fed' for many years, but things are picking up. It will not be such a struggle for Turkey.

^Thanks for your support pal!

I am very curious, will my country ever join UE? It has been discussed here so long it looks like a dream!

USA seems to support us, so maybe we have a chance?

The closer the membership of Turkey gets, the more rises the pressure for the EU to get a working constitution. Mainly to reach the point for the EU to be able to decide about its budget and about its economical policy. Simply put, the EU is mainly an umbrella organisation for regional subsidisation, predominantly in the agrarian sector. That's were nearly 50% of all EU money goes.

And Turkey happens to be just another agrarian giant that would get subisidies and burst the EU budget, forcing those subsidies to get cut. Therefore, it would be logical that countries that get subsidies would be against Turkish membership, while countries that are opposed to those subsidies would support it.

As for not functioning. My understanding is, that the Austrians were opposed to the wording of the negotation with the Turks because the wanted the EU to restart negotations with Croatia. Negotations that were opposed by other EU-members. That changed their minds after Austria changed its mind....

Edit: Yes I know how Coratia is spelled!

[ October 04, 2005, 22:09: Message edited by: Iago ]

Personally I believe that Europe needs Turkey as a custodian of prosperity and democracy and an exemplar and anchor for all the countries that surround it; it also needs Turkish labour and the Turkish guarantee of oil and gas from central Asia. Above all, Europe needs to send a positive message to the 12 million or so Muslims who already live within Europe.

Anyway, I can not believe the prejudice and sheer hatred to Turks in this subject, and knowing it also comes from our neighbour Greece really pains me. I never hated Greece, or Greece people, nor I blamed them for what they did in WW, and I am sure most of my people think like me. Sure, our countries have battled fiercely, and we were able to save our lands from bitter invasion, but I think it was not Greece's fault, merely other 'bigger' powers were using them; and no one can blame us neither, we are neither barbaric, savage, nor war-liking. We only protected ourselves in WW, and I thought things have changed since then. I fear that history is teached differently in every country. I don't understand what exactly Greece did to Turkey in the WWs. And bitter invasion? Do you mean the 1921 Minor Asia subject? If you do then you are gravely mistaken and what you say is not the truth.
Talking about Greece, we share a lot of things in common, and I beleieved things had been improving between us. It saddens me that old prejudices and hatred are still boiling, and I just hope that it is still little plays of the 'bigger' powers at work, I do not want to see Greece as our enemy. I am sorry if i sound a little bit nationalistic but some things have a limit.
We don't exactly "share" anything. The Turks were a nomad tribe which was islamized by the Arabs. They were powerfull and fierce warriors and for that they managed to gain power in an aging and growing soft Islam (Arabic empire). The final ingridient of the now Turkish culture was an invasion and finally occupation of an old Byzantium. Since at that time Byzantium was still far ahead (as as it concerns culture and technology) from any other empire/kingdom of that era, it is logical to absorb these elements. It was paid with a lot of blood from the Greek population.
I and the majority of our population do not demand anything from Turkey. That means that we don't want Constantinople we don't want Smyrne territory back (Asias minor part) or any territory for that matter back. It is unrealistic to have such demands (and stupid IMHO). But i and all of EU demand from Turkey and more specifically from the Turkish politicians and military (we know they have a say) to conform to the present day.
That means that respect of human rights, different beliefs and religions rights, minorities rights has to be restored.
I don't think that Turkey will join EU because that would mean that Turkey must back off and abandon many claims she has over foreign territories. Turkey must also abandon claims of an non existent Kurdish population, and many other issues which so far are the main principles of their foreign policy.
Attaturk did not "europized" Turkey. He just despised the fact that religion was superseding politics. He believed that to be a flaw. So he just made a new doctrine (neoturks), which was the Islamic beliefs without the religious disguise. And focused only on Turkey population. The gatekeeper is the Army (he did not hold to a high esteem the Greek beliefs of Democracy) meaning he did not even trust the people for defending his nations interests. And in that doctrine also in Turkey should and will live only Turks.
As for the EU, we are doing our very best to join, but know that our chances are slim. Sure we are not perfect, but which country is? At least we are working hard for improvement. It is essential for everybody to know that we are far, far different than other muslim countries. We have democrasy, and since Ataturk we have been developing rapidly and willingly to reach the modern culture. And I think we are not far from it, Turkey is a developed country worthy of EU, as I said maybe we have flaws, but not wanting us becasue of the pure prejudice and old hatred is just not fair, to say the least. We bore no ill will against any country, government or people as Ataturk said ''Peace at home (country), Peace in the World''. But we do not flinch to protect ourselves if need be, just like any other country. I also think that Turkey chances are slim. But the decision will take place in 15 - 20 years from now, maybe later. I don't want to foretell anything. But as i see from the first couple of days since the negotiations begun, you are about to be the first country to fail that trail.
Why? Because the doctrine of Attaturk is still followed. Because the start of the negotiations was with US interference ( :nono: ) and some politicians in Turkey believe that admission will be achieved likewise. Hopefully i am mistaken but the interview mr Erdogan gave to the NTV (or something like that) was still sticked to the same attitude. But i don't expect anything different from the person who threatened the EU that if we don't accept Turkey we will bring trouble and shame to our doorstep. An Islamic fanatic (charismatic diplomat maybe but the party he is leader of is the Islamists) whose wife still follows the Islamic way of life (he is saying so). Who before he got jailed, was strongly against the possibility of Turkey joining the EU. Various speeches of his exist to defend this ( Erdogans poem (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2270642.stm), Erdogans bio (http://www.answers.com/topic/recep-tayyip-erdogan) ) but i fail to find something for that in the net, but i have seen it in a greek tv programm and i was amazed by the change he undertook. I don't think that he really changed anything in his points of view though. He is just playing what he thinks is best for the time being. And not to say that he is closelly watched over by the army, which considers him a threat to the Attaturk doctrine. And they would love to see him screw it up (they may even help him).

Personally I believe that Europe needs Turkey as a custodian of prosperity and democracy and an exemplar and anchor for all the countries that surround it; it also needs Turkish labour and the Turkish guarantee of oil and gas from central Asia. Above all, Europe needs to send a positive message to the 12 million or so Muslims who already live within Europe. Curious. Why is it that we, the Europeans, must send a message to our resident muslims? Or, for that matter, to the muslim community at wide? A message that Islam and liberal, democratic societies are not opposed concepts?
Rather I feel its the other way around. When I look at the muslim world, and recent occurances, it is up to them to prove that Islam doesnt exclude human rights, tolerance, general happiness and freedom of citizens. The determination to prove that should not stem from the wish to please the Western World, but out of a sense that its in their very own best interest.
And this is what rubs me definitely wrong about the whole Turey-EU scenario. Turkey must be pressed, almost harried, to change its social make-up. Where they should be eager to advance, and appreciative of our assistance, they are putting up resistance, giving us speeches of bravado, warning the EU not to interfere with Turkey's internal affairs unduely. Thats quite rich!
It all reeks of falsehood and a lack of understanding of what is actually asked of them. And Turkey's way into the EU is very long. Everyone appreciating reality can see that when Turkey shows its true face (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4325347.stm). I found that display of brutality quite revealing.

As for the muslims of Europe - they are hardly being oppressed or harrased. They are free to pursuit their private lifes and religion. Now I would like to see that happening in a muslim nation for once. What right they have to demand of the EU a message of any kind is totally beyond me. Laughable. So please.
Far more if there is so much anxiety among Europeans toward a populous muslim nation joining the EU its because we experience in daily life what its like to have a religious group in our midst that is increasingly turning insular, downright hostile, toward the people that took them in. The muslims, Turks included, make for an extremely poor incentive in matters multiculturalism. Turkey may pay the price for that. On that note: The prospect of having yet more Turks move in - to bolster our labour force or however the legend goes - is not that suitable an argument to convince the Europeans to allow Turkey in.

But in spite of my personal opposition to Turkey's aspirations, and the opening of negotiations with them, I am feeling relaxed about the whole matter. Turkey will never join the EU, that I am sure of. Not only because there is so little enthusiasm left on the side of Europeans (including the politicians). Not only because the whole thing is, in truth, seen as a burden, perceived by most Europeans as a pesky obligation rather than a promising vision for the future. Not because I feel, should Turkey really get close to joining, that they will eventually be sabotaged by certain European nations. Chances are Turkey itself will break away. There are already Turks protesting the idea of the EU dominating and reshaping their nation. If they think that what has been imposed on them so far is hard to bear they have no idea what is coming for them. Turkey will be put upside down by EU demands. In the long run the strain on them will be too great. Whatever delusions they have about Europe - it wont carry them through to the end of the process.

As for the muslims of Europe - they are hardly being oppressed or harrased. They are free to pursuit their private lifes and religion. What about the 'headscarf ban' in France?

Germans may not like the idea of Turkey being part of the EU, but they seem to love their holidays there, and of course purchase cheap second homes there.

Some Germans that I know complain about the Turkish not integrating themselves into Germany (I have heard of Berlin being referred to the second largest Turkish city), but it is Germany's fault for allowing Turkish to have Turkish speaking schools in Germany (it creates an unnecessary divide).

I don't think Turkey will be part of EU for a long time, but I am confident it will happen in my lifetime.

but it is Germany's fault for allowing Turkish to have Turkish speaking schools in Germany I don't think that this is true, since I know for sure that there are greek speaking schools in Germany, which are financed by the greek state (the same thing is happening here with foreign schools, for example Poland is financing the polish school of Athens for the children of the polish immigrants). If the turkish state refuses to finance turkish schools in germany, you can't blame germans for that.

Edit: Sorry I've misread your post.

What about the 'headscarf ban' in France? It's not a "headscarf ban", it's laicism. The only form of religious cohabiton that actually allows religious freedom -> Separation of church and state.

Actually, Turkey is laicist too.

Laicité from Wikipedia:

Laicité is a prevailing conception of the separation of church and state and the absence of religious interference into government affairs (and vice versa). The concept is related to secularism, but does not imply hostility towards religious beliefs.

Edit: And that's were it comes together again. As long as some countries (Italy and Spain for example) insist on the EU being "christian" and definitely not laicist, there can't be a Turkish membership (and other things, that actually are today). If Turkey gets to be member, the EU definiteley would be a laicist organisation, not giving a dam about anyones religion, which would be the desirable outcome.

[ October 07, 2005, 17:04: Message edited by: Iago ]

Cúchulainn, the Koran doesnt require women to wear a headscarf. Thus the ban doesnt target this particular religion but a... rural tradition. A tradition that is viewed as oppressive and discriminatory by most Europeans (or perhaps I should only speak for the Germans here?). Particularly since many young women are pressured into wearing this piece of cloth by their families. I personally know such cases. Its also a tradition that is used to visually separate muslim women from the societies they live in. They are not allowed to blend in but are isolated.
You surely understand that it is offensive to a native people to have foreigners actively oppose local habits for the purpose of denying the culture they live in. I think its alarming they would rather set themselves apart than adopt the habits of their new home. The headscarf has become a symbol for this denial/dislike. Hence the attention it is getting.

The French have done a clever thing here. With this ban they took the pressure off the muslim women and allowed them to more easily enter and participate in the French society. Et voila: Integration occurs. Oh, how the traditional muslims must resent that. Enter honor killings!

Also remember that in Turkey women are not allowed to wear a headscarf.

Germans may not like the idea of Turkey being part of the EU, but they seem to love their holidays there, and of course purchase cheap second homes there.
Obviously Germans like to travel. However being curious about foreign cultures such as Turkey's has no relevance for political decisions. Its not a question of antipathy for Turks either. I have been to Turkey. They are mostly a very hospitable people, quite different from the ones living in Germany. And thats were the problems start. The Turks in Germany have proven to be 'problematic' neighbours.

Some Germans that I know complain about the Turkish not integrating themselves into Germany (I have heard of Berlin being referred to the second largest Turkish city), but it is Germany's fault for allowing Turkish to have Turkish speaking schools in Germany (it creates an unnecessary divide). I wouldnt know of schools teaching in Turkish. Are you perhaps refering to those private schools teaching the Koran?
Anyway, Turks keeping their motherlanguage alive in Germany is fine with us. All other foreigners do the same. The lack of interest in German is the problem. It reflects the lack of appreciation of our society and its order.

They are not allowed to blend in but are isolated.
You surely understand that it is offensive to a native people to have foreigners actively oppose local habits for the purpose of denying the culture they live in. I think its alarming they would rather set themselves apart than adopt the habits of their new home. The headscarf has become a symbol for this denial/dislike. Hence the attention it is getting.

The French have done a clever thing here. With this ban they took the pressure off the muslim women and allowed them to more easily enter and participate in the French society. Et voila: Integration occurs. Oh, how the traditional muslims must resent that. Enter honor killings! Don't bring in honour killings, boiling catholic blood other christian traditions.

True. What the quran says about scarf is so vague it borders at nothingness. True also that if veil and what veil is heavily disputed among muslims. True, more so among Turks, that happen to be mostly allevits and therfore strongly opposed to veils.

And yes, laicism lets religions flourish and grants freedom to its adherers. But I don't like the Bavarian point of view: Christianity and nothing else. I'd love to see laicism coming to Germany too and that means Protestants and Catholics have to give up their privileges compared to other religions. Something I don't expect to see too soon.

But integration and it's problems, that's another whole chapter, that plays in. And of course an important, but it has nothing to do with religion, as Christians can be as a pain in the ass when it's about integration and learning another language.

The problem is known with all migrants. And where I come from strongly connected with people from Italy, the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Kosovos, Croatians), Albania, Spain, Portugal, Latin-America and Germany.

A high-percentage of Secundos of these people are (mostly) christian AND trouble-makers! Strictly refusing to learn the language, droping out of school, speeding in cars, worrying about honour ... etc.

[ October 07, 2005, 18:23: Message edited by: Iago ]

Oh come on, Iago. German/Swiss love-hate or no - Germans dont kill the women of their families when they engage in relationships with the Swiss. Or start wearing A Dirndel. :p

But you have these things happening with the Turks around here. We had lots of honor killings this year. So I think its OK to mention it. Many young women killed by their families for becoming too... well... European? German? Modern? Whatever. And the best part about it is the reaction of young Turks when asked what they think of it. The response was, and I cant quite get over it, that the fault lay with these dead women for being too German!

Its the ultimate rejection.

What emotions that triggers in Germans. Devastating. And then someone especially bright as Phase Demon comes along and calls those opposing Turkey nationalistic and hateful. A fantastic joke.

Germans may not like the idea of Turkey being part of the EU, but they seem to love their holidays there, and of course purchase cheap second homes there. And that goes for everyone living in EU. Turkey is a country with a very weak currency and obviously is a much cheaper destination for everyone living in the EU. That thing was valid and for Greece when there was no common currency.
But the problem of this union is not only on the one side it's for both sides.
Turkeys social structure included three main classes:
The vaguely rich, the middle-class (mainly emploeyes in companies and generally new century occupations), and the untrained workforce. The third class is the vast majority containing also the farmers. And they are poor, i mean really poor (most of them don't even now what electricity is) and illiteral, without any other future other than serving their aga (lord).
And yes that feudal system still exist in the Turkey totally violating the human rights treaty.
These people will be devastated by the change of the economical system Turkey must undertake to conform with the EU standards. Most of them will either become de facto slaves, working for noting more than some quantity of food per day (now they work for a day pay, small one but it is something).
But integration and it's problems, that's another whole chapter, that plays in. And of course an important, but it has nothing to do with religion, as Christians can be as a pain in the ass when it's about integration and learning another language. Everyone can be a pain in the ass if he/she wants to. But the real problem maybe is the total difference in these two cultures is the influence that religion has on everyday life.
In Europe culture and everyday life has since Enlightment broke these bonds, and in facts quite some times has even crossed swords with religion.
Something unthinkable in a muslim country and punishable even by death.
Anyone remembers Shalman Rushdi and the death contract for him? (this is still valid).
And Turkey allthough is more westernized in that, still is far off the western standards. Things can change of course but i don't really think so.
I can say though that i undestand a little bit the immigrant who goes to a foreign country and tries to keep the ethics and way of life of his homeland. But even to this there are some borders.
And i have a personal experience from immigrants especially from countries like Turkey, Pakistan, Africa, Eastern Europe, Germany.
A friend of mine was born in Germany and grew there. He has once told me that in Germany they called him Greek, here they call him German (he feels as if he is stuck somewhere between the borders not able to be in a country). But he is ok.
People i know from Eastern Europe, allthough in their conversations they use their own language (logical) they know Greek and even sometimes use them in their own conversation. The majority has managed to blend in, even though they had a colossal cultural and liberation shock after the fall of the Iron curtain and their coming here.
Africans have just adopted the new way of life. Surely they use their language, surely they have their own diet and surely they hang out mainly with their likes, but this is purely their choice. But they don't try to isolate themselves. They are open minded.
Turks on the other hand, i have seen in Northern Greece. They are supposed to be muslims only. But if you ask most of them they will say they are not just muslims, they are Turks. And they have managed to be isolated in reality from anything non Turkish or muslim for that matter. Their houses are in the same fashion (even now) as they were 200 years ago. A family (in the broad sense of this term) dwells in a isolated ,with no windows to face outside, house, which looks more like a prison or a castle than anything else. Their way of life goes strictly by the Quran and their priest "Mouftis" is their teacher for the youngs. Most women don't get to choose a mate or a husband. They get what the elders decide. And of course the marriage between a christian male and muslim female is unacceptable. The only acceptable mix is Christian (who must convert) female with muslim male.
That is a little too oppressive for my tastes.
But i would like to see this whole process how it would evolve.
I know for sure that Turkey is supposed to accept some painfull decisions. I fear that the army my choose to force the Turkey quitting the process, or far worse to have again another dictatorship. I only hope that the people of Turkey are willing to make that step that will take them forward and just stay still and complain that the others are walking.
After all Turkey and Turks hopefully they know that applying to join EU, means they are willing to conform to EU standards. Not the other way around.

Oh come on, Iago. German/Swiss love-hate or no - Germans dont kill the women of their families when they engage in relationships with the Swiss. Or start wearing A Dirndel. [Razz]

But you have these things happening with the Turks around here. We had lots of honor killings this year. So I think its OK to mention it. Many young women killed by their families for becoming too... well... European? German? Modern? Whatever. And the best part about it is the reaction of young Turks when asked what they think of it. The response was, and I cant quite get over it, that the fault lay with these dead women for being too German! Behaviour like that was traditionally ascribed to immigrants from Italy or poor catholic cantons. And there were truly many incidents were women were killed or at least beaten. Actually, I met some Italians that matched the stereotype. That's meet them even today.

But nowadays, it's mostly people from the balkans doing stuff like that. As people from South-Eastern Europe are the majority of the immigrants (next to Germans and Italians). Therefore, you get the honour killing with Croats or Serbs. Or Albanians, who, besides being muslim, have there very own traditions.

But in reality, if one of them claims honour, it's more like: While playing soccer, I was heading towards the goal as he took the ball from me. Therefore, he violated my honour and me and my 2 bullies mates had to kick the **** out of him.

Same goes with drunken alcoholics, sitting around useless, unemployed and lazy, getting angry when their sisters haven't cleaned their clothes yet or made some food. That's when start rambling about hounour and how the sister wasn't raised well and such a disgrace.

And that's the same behaviour pattern for immigrants. Maybe Turks, maybe Bosnians, maybe Italians, maybe Croats, maybe Spanish... all the same.

A friend of mine was born in Germany and grew there. He has once told me that in Germany they called him Greek, here they call him German (he feels as if he is stuck somewhere between the borders not able to be in a country). But he is ok. That's one of the sources of the problem. That's why they are called secundos. There somethings else, something new, a mix. And some of them can use it and take advantage of it and use as a special opportunity granted to them. Some survive it and learn to handle it and some fail. Fail completely.

And those who fail end up being nothing. Because they can't speak no language, not the language of their supposed "homecountry" nor the language of the hostcountry. And they can't read no language. THey can't write. They can't understand. They are "worthless".

And that's a pattern that hits about 25% of the foreign population.

They are foreign in a foreign society and when there in there "homecountry" they even more foreign. Nothing. And those people are a serious problem for society.

And maybe they know some complex words and can make some short phrases, like:" I am orthodox". And then:"Orthodox, you **** and I am Orthodox".
Actually, I am very impressed by people that all of a sudden can enunciate words like that. Besides having no concept of whatever the word may mean. Because their language capicites are so reduced, even if they would try to understand, they still would fail. They only no, that being "orthodox" is something "good" and "exclusive" and being not "orthodox" is a flaw. Besides, never having been to church for about 10 years and never ever opened up the bible to read, it's an important thing that has to be mentioned when ever the oppurtinity calls for it. Like why there was a quarrel with some other guy.

A lot foreigners around here simply are that way. I actually no a Greek guy who shows patterns like this, but he isn't as aggressive as Ex-Yugoslavians tend to be.

And on the other hand, a lot of Turks got their daughters into higher education. I even think that the Turkish integration successes are higher around here then Italian or Balkan ones. But this may very well be the product of different circumstances. For example, a higher percentage of Turks coming from East-Turkey or are generally coming from higher educated social-stratas, or allevits being in the majority...

In any case, Integration isn't that simple black and white.

Edit: By the way, the foreign population in my canton in the 10-30 years of age segment is nearly 50% or the whole population. And were I was raised, the percentage was even higher.

[ October 08, 2005, 11:13: Message edited by: Iago ]

Its funny how someone can 'not care' for a nation, until they meet a pretty girl/handsome man...I can tell you from experience that's not true.

Allthough what Western Paladin is saying is true, there is a catch there too.
When one meets a person from a foreign country, he/she may not or do like him, but furthermore gains a first hand experience on these ethics and customs that make the difference. Having then a better judgement and knowledge of that civilization than before.
That may change your mind for that particular nation to better or worse but based on more solid facts than the ones you had before.

Only have an opinion of a country when you live there for a while. At least then, you will know what you are talking about.

Cuchulain i don't disagree but the fact that you or anyone here has not the possibility to live in i.e. Afganistan, does not mean that you can't have an opinion on the health system there and the health conditions on most residents there. It is easy to find a report that can pretty well fill you in on some facts. That would easily help you have an opinion on a part of the reality one faces there.
Not a full aspect of the story, but still something

It was not directed at you Mithrantir, but I meant more of an opinion on culture and way of life and such things, but yes I agree with you on that one can have an opinion on healthcare, pensions, etc.

Too many people get their view of culture from TV programmes, which I find disturbing.

Off topic, but back to the late 80's, local schools had a school trip to Florida (some type of US/N.Ireland programme), where we stay with trusted famalies. The family that I stayed with had some ****ed up ideas on Ireland, for example I was purchased my 'first' bicycle, which was some rusty piece of crap from a market, while I had a nice mountain bike at home! I was also asked questions like - "Does your father drink beer all day?", "Do you have cars in Ireland", "Can you read and write?" etc. Similar questions were asked when I went on the Walsh Visa programme many years later!

So getting back on topic, you can see how people have strange views of other countries, as they never visited themselves. Turkey's biggest problem is not with themselves, but how people view them, and have strange prejustices of their culture. Maybe some people think the Turkish ride on camels all day waving shamshir's!