chevalier
Sat, 18th Dec '04, 4:21pm
Here are today's Dragon Age forum highlights, collected by NWVault (http://nwvault.ign.com). Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">David Gaider, Designer</font>
Romances (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399586&post=3309618&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />But realistically anyone who thinks that there is even a slight chance DA will actually contain a same sex romance has not been keeping up with current events<hr />Perhaps you missed the one we had in KotOR? There's less resistance to this than you might think.
More: <hr />What are the requirements without going into too much detail ?<hr />I don't understand. The requirements for which? For a gay romance? The only requirement for that is that the romance be intended for two characters of the same sex, of course.
Subraces & More? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400095&post=3309633&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Then let me be the one to say it… Dragon Age should have playable dark elves (of some sort).<hr />Nope. No dark elves or anything that could be interpreted as dark elves or drow or anything similar. Also no "sub-races", period.
More: <hr />But what about cross-breeding and interracial relationship in the DA setting? Is it an aspect you've tought of in developing the races cultural aspects? I bet yes of course. <hr />Yes, it's an aspect that we'e considered.
Dragon Age Languages (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399925&post=3309640&forum=84&highlight=)
For the love of all that is holy.
They're not lizard men, for the last time.
I know it's just a handy reference for some, as you've nothing else to call them, but the reason they don't have any snake-like or lizard-like characteristics is because they're not based on snakes or lizards. Period.
More: <hr />So, does one have to hire a translator when dealing with a different race to see the text of the game in English? At least sometimes?<hr />We're trying to figure that out, actually. We want it to be a cool feature without overly hindering the player... but we also don't want to say that you know every language already through your mighty connection to the Force, either.
More: <hr />You said they were reptiles, so if they’re not snakes or lizards then they must be turtles, crocodiles, tuataras, or amphisbaenians. I’m guessing turtles. <hr />Nope. We never said that they were reptiles or even vaguely reptilian. A couple of the preview websites mentioned the race being either reptilian or draconian... and while I can sort of see where they were coming from, I really think they must not have been paying very close attention or just remembered a single feature which struck them as particularly reptilian (perhaps the eyes? I'm not sure).
People have latched onto what those two sites said and have even later attributed it to us, but that's not the case.
More: Ahhhhh, that quote is so out of context. The discussion there was specifically in reference to that race being called reptilian. I was not, myself, saying the race was reptilian.
Maybe I should just not speak.
At any rate, if that's the impression Shayna got, there's obviously something there that looks reptilian. Maybe it's the eyes?
Magic System in DA. (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=397889&post=3309659&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Please step up to the plate, Bioware, and prove her wrong.<hr />All we've said is that it's a mana-based system. You're all free to speculate as much as you like at this point, but from our standpoint whipping yourself up into a frenzy based on just that is a bit funny.
We'll talk about the magic system when we're ready to.
<hr />Quote: It'd be a pity to flush my hopes for DA down the toilet so soon. I'm being as forthright as I can when I say I want very much to purchase DA the first week that it's available. If Solica is right, though, I'm afraid there's a good chance I'll be waiting until it drops to half price.<hr />But you're already bitterly disappointed over the fact that we won't have familiars, remember? Either you tend to lean towards the overdramatic or we've already sunk about as low as we can go, right?
More: <hr />OK, so I'm being rather tongue-in-cheek. I don't mean to completely dismiss people's concerns, but I think some might have over-reacted a bit. You should, of course, express your concerns. Point out what you think the weaknesses or potential pitfalls are, but there seems to be a lot of IMO unnecessary doom and gloom pessimism. Try to focus on the glass half-full instead of wondering who drank half of your water.<hr />Yes, I would like to point out that I'm not trying to dismiss people's potential concerns... with any potential magic system, you're going to be able to think of examples that you've seen and didn't like. I myself am not a big fan of the slot-based system that D&D uses (you now completely forget that spell you know, but will remember it again tomorrow!) and can also think of mana systems that were ridiculous, but until we're ready to divulge more about this specific system you're going to have to believe us when we say we intend to have a complex system that works and is fun. Really, you do.
As far as potential concerns, it might be ideal to point out which mana systems (if any) that you've liked and why, or which systems in there that you appreciated (as well as what you didn't).
Expecting the worst, while being win-win in the way that you'll never be disappointed per se, is a bit cheap and will only serve to annoy me. So there.
More: <hr />As far as real CRPG's I have used, Betrayal at Anatara had one of the better systems (though I seem to be hard pressed to locate the manual currently).<hr />Hmmm... I don't think I got very far in Betrayal at Antara. What was good about its system, exactly?
More: <hr />I wonder if there would be any way of implementing a system like than in a cRPG? <hr />Mmm. I'd think you'd be more likely to translate a system like Ars Magica's, which is more limited than Mage's but really it has to be. The ability to "do anything" doesn't really work much, and even in Ars Magica you'd have to either take out the Spontaneous Magic part of things enitirely or define a limited set of abilities possible at each level (which makes it very much like Ritual Magic at that point). Computers don't react well to complete open-endedness, even if you were to threaten players with a nice Paradox backlash.
More: <hr />I vaguely remember Ars Magica. I remember running franticly from a huge spider, trying to steer my character with the mouse while using the mouse draw a specific patterns on the screen. It was very difficult. Gesture based magic systems are evil. Revenant’s ‘click a pattern of stones’ was much easier to use.<hr />Wow. I had a huge moment of cognitive dissonance here until I realized you were talking about Pax Magica.
Ars Magica is a PnP RPG... I don't think they've made a computer translation of it, although that sure would be interesting.
EDIT: Oh, right... Arx Fatalis. Not Pax Magica. What the hell am I thinking? We have our Christmas party tonight... I think I'm already drunk out of sheer anticipation.
bioware: design focus for dragon age? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400218&post=3309772&forum=84&highlight=)
Yes, and I think it's possible to take more "fantastical" races like dwarves and elves and still put them into a milieu that is more realistic and has actual political intrigue. I think that Tolkien did, for instance, although in his world those races were waning... it's just that Tolkien's version of those races has become the cliche since it has been copied so much since. Not to toot our own horn (as I'm sure there will be some who disagree, regardless), but I think the tack we're taking with them will be a refreshing one. For what it's worth: I know that, internally, those people who have come onto our team and read through the docs have generally commented that the races (in particular the elves) have been their favorite part.
Make it challenging (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399495&post=3309797&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Of course raise dead spells aand town priests help, but in thge beginning when resources are scare and death is rather frequent it IS a bit annoying.<hr />See, I challenge this idea. I know it's very ingrained in people's minds, but the main problem with having Raise Dead spells and priests who resurrect party members at every temple is that it turns death into a hindrance. It's okay to design encounters so that death of one or more party members is expected simply because death is relatively meaningless. That's how they design MMORPG's, after all... death is just meant to slow you down.
Encounters don't have to be designed that way, however. And since there is no such thing as a Raise Dead spell in DA, we're going to have to find a way around it without deliberately making everything a cakewalk (and, yes, that is our intention). The main idea, as I think Jay mentioned, is to avoid the kind of difficulty that leads to frustration while still being challenging.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Darcy Pajak, Assistant Producer</font>
Magic System in DA. (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=397889&post=3309934&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />
Please step up to the plate, Bioware, and prove her wrong. (<hr />The only way we can actually prove anything is by having you play the game. Any one feature taken by itself without the benefit of the rest of the system can seem quite limited. Like a symphony, the whole game needs to be experienced to appreciate one specific system.
We are not ready to talk about specific plans regarding our spell or combat system because we’re still designing it. We could implement a system that you suggest, and then we need to test it to make sure it works with the rest of the game. If we find that the system does not fit, we will change it, or change what is making it not fit. Until we get something we are happy with the details have to be vague.
It’s also entirely possible that the whole mana system fails as well, and we have to come up with something else.
Once systems are locked down, we may release specific details, that will remain to be seen.
Dragon Age Languages (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399925&post=3310017&forum=84&highlight=)
It's actually a little gremlin type creature that has a special attack of biting knees.
We're just not sure if it's going to be blue, or green.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Georg Zoeller, Designer</font>
Cutscenes vs. Scripted Sequences (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400361&post=3309161&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />I don't think the scripted sequences in HL2 offered any more or any less than a cutscene would have. Seems to me that since HL takes place entirely in first person, they just decided to leave it that way for the interaction.
You can't do anything to "break" these scripted sequences because your bullets go straight through NPCs and the physics and interaction are turned "off" for things the NPCs are going to use.
And YES there are going to be scripted sequences of that kind in Dragon Age. There were only about a million of them in Baldur's Gate, NWN, and KotOR. They were called dialogue.<hr />HL2 is a special case. If you look on how the important cutscenes are set up, the player is always confined to the area of the cutscene by clever level design (not talking about the cool little scripted things like the crow getting eaten, etc). This work well for a linear setup like HL2, but it would get old and noticeable pretty fast in an RPG environment.
It's a matter of approach - design locations to fit your cutsenes or have cutscenes take place in locations you designed for your story and world. The more open your game get's the more expensive approach #1 becomes.
The best option IMO is to use both - for really important game events where you have cutscenes to drive forward the story, specifically design the location with the cutscene in mind - for the standard cutscene in between, place your cameras and shots in a way to take advantage of the area instead of spending a lot of resources in making the art fit the cutscene.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Dan Whiteside, Designer</font>
Romances (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399586&post=3309655&forum=84&highlight=)
You have to play a female character and the (subtle) romance is with the cat-woman. I can't remember her name right now.
There is also a possible gay romance with Kaidala the nymph in Kingmaker, and she is another example of one who can romance either gender.
More: No problem, and I just remembered her name. I think it is Juhani.
bioware: design focus for dragon age? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400218&post=3309688&forum=84&highlight=)
Actually the Jon Snow storyline has magical races, so they do exist. DA's relation to Martin's world is more one of atmosphere and political intrigue. We didn't just take his world and change a few names. It is definitely our own vision of a unique world.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">David Gaider, Designer</font>
Romances (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399586&post=3309618&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />But realistically anyone who thinks that there is even a slight chance DA will actually contain a same sex romance has not been keeping up with current events<hr />Perhaps you missed the one we had in KotOR? There's less resistance to this than you might think.
More: <hr />What are the requirements without going into too much detail ?<hr />I don't understand. The requirements for which? For a gay romance? The only requirement for that is that the romance be intended for two characters of the same sex, of course.
Subraces & More? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400095&post=3309633&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Then let me be the one to say it… Dragon Age should have playable dark elves (of some sort).<hr />Nope. No dark elves or anything that could be interpreted as dark elves or drow or anything similar. Also no "sub-races", period.
More: <hr />But what about cross-breeding and interracial relationship in the DA setting? Is it an aspect you've tought of in developing the races cultural aspects? I bet yes of course. <hr />Yes, it's an aspect that we'e considered.
Dragon Age Languages (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399925&post=3309640&forum=84&highlight=)
For the love of all that is holy.
They're not lizard men, for the last time.
I know it's just a handy reference for some, as you've nothing else to call them, but the reason they don't have any snake-like or lizard-like characteristics is because they're not based on snakes or lizards. Period.
More: <hr />So, does one have to hire a translator when dealing with a different race to see the text of the game in English? At least sometimes?<hr />We're trying to figure that out, actually. We want it to be a cool feature without overly hindering the player... but we also don't want to say that you know every language already through your mighty connection to the Force, either.
More: <hr />You said they were reptiles, so if they’re not snakes or lizards then they must be turtles, crocodiles, tuataras, or amphisbaenians. I’m guessing turtles. <hr />Nope. We never said that they were reptiles or even vaguely reptilian. A couple of the preview websites mentioned the race being either reptilian or draconian... and while I can sort of see where they were coming from, I really think they must not have been paying very close attention or just remembered a single feature which struck them as particularly reptilian (perhaps the eyes? I'm not sure).
People have latched onto what those two sites said and have even later attributed it to us, but that's not the case.
More: Ahhhhh, that quote is so out of context. The discussion there was specifically in reference to that race being called reptilian. I was not, myself, saying the race was reptilian.
Maybe I should just not speak.
At any rate, if that's the impression Shayna got, there's obviously something there that looks reptilian. Maybe it's the eyes?
Magic System in DA. (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=397889&post=3309659&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Please step up to the plate, Bioware, and prove her wrong.<hr />All we've said is that it's a mana-based system. You're all free to speculate as much as you like at this point, but from our standpoint whipping yourself up into a frenzy based on just that is a bit funny.
We'll talk about the magic system when we're ready to.
<hr />Quote: It'd be a pity to flush my hopes for DA down the toilet so soon. I'm being as forthright as I can when I say I want very much to purchase DA the first week that it's available. If Solica is right, though, I'm afraid there's a good chance I'll be waiting until it drops to half price.<hr />But you're already bitterly disappointed over the fact that we won't have familiars, remember? Either you tend to lean towards the overdramatic or we've already sunk about as low as we can go, right?
More: <hr />OK, so I'm being rather tongue-in-cheek. I don't mean to completely dismiss people's concerns, but I think some might have over-reacted a bit. You should, of course, express your concerns. Point out what you think the weaknesses or potential pitfalls are, but there seems to be a lot of IMO unnecessary doom and gloom pessimism. Try to focus on the glass half-full instead of wondering who drank half of your water.<hr />Yes, I would like to point out that I'm not trying to dismiss people's potential concerns... with any potential magic system, you're going to be able to think of examples that you've seen and didn't like. I myself am not a big fan of the slot-based system that D&D uses (you now completely forget that spell you know, but will remember it again tomorrow!) and can also think of mana systems that were ridiculous, but until we're ready to divulge more about this specific system you're going to have to believe us when we say we intend to have a complex system that works and is fun. Really, you do.
As far as potential concerns, it might be ideal to point out which mana systems (if any) that you've liked and why, or which systems in there that you appreciated (as well as what you didn't).
Expecting the worst, while being win-win in the way that you'll never be disappointed per se, is a bit cheap and will only serve to annoy me. So there.
More: <hr />As far as real CRPG's I have used, Betrayal at Anatara had one of the better systems (though I seem to be hard pressed to locate the manual currently).<hr />Hmmm... I don't think I got very far in Betrayal at Antara. What was good about its system, exactly?
More: <hr />I wonder if there would be any way of implementing a system like than in a cRPG? <hr />Mmm. I'd think you'd be more likely to translate a system like Ars Magica's, which is more limited than Mage's but really it has to be. The ability to "do anything" doesn't really work much, and even in Ars Magica you'd have to either take out the Spontaneous Magic part of things enitirely or define a limited set of abilities possible at each level (which makes it very much like Ritual Magic at that point). Computers don't react well to complete open-endedness, even if you were to threaten players with a nice Paradox backlash.
More: <hr />I vaguely remember Ars Magica. I remember running franticly from a huge spider, trying to steer my character with the mouse while using the mouse draw a specific patterns on the screen. It was very difficult. Gesture based magic systems are evil. Revenant’s ‘click a pattern of stones’ was much easier to use.<hr />Wow. I had a huge moment of cognitive dissonance here until I realized you were talking about Pax Magica.
Ars Magica is a PnP RPG... I don't think they've made a computer translation of it, although that sure would be interesting.
EDIT: Oh, right... Arx Fatalis. Not Pax Magica. What the hell am I thinking? We have our Christmas party tonight... I think I'm already drunk out of sheer anticipation.
bioware: design focus for dragon age? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400218&post=3309772&forum=84&highlight=)
Yes, and I think it's possible to take more "fantastical" races like dwarves and elves and still put them into a milieu that is more realistic and has actual political intrigue. I think that Tolkien did, for instance, although in his world those races were waning... it's just that Tolkien's version of those races has become the cliche since it has been copied so much since. Not to toot our own horn (as I'm sure there will be some who disagree, regardless), but I think the tack we're taking with them will be a refreshing one. For what it's worth: I know that, internally, those people who have come onto our team and read through the docs have generally commented that the races (in particular the elves) have been their favorite part.
Make it challenging (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399495&post=3309797&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />Of course raise dead spells aand town priests help, but in thge beginning when resources are scare and death is rather frequent it IS a bit annoying.<hr />See, I challenge this idea. I know it's very ingrained in people's minds, but the main problem with having Raise Dead spells and priests who resurrect party members at every temple is that it turns death into a hindrance. It's okay to design encounters so that death of one or more party members is expected simply because death is relatively meaningless. That's how they design MMORPG's, after all... death is just meant to slow you down.
Encounters don't have to be designed that way, however. And since there is no such thing as a Raise Dead spell in DA, we're going to have to find a way around it without deliberately making everything a cakewalk (and, yes, that is our intention). The main idea, as I think Jay mentioned, is to avoid the kind of difficulty that leads to frustration while still being challenging.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Darcy Pajak, Assistant Producer</font>
Magic System in DA. (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=397889&post=3309934&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />
Please step up to the plate, Bioware, and prove her wrong. (<hr />The only way we can actually prove anything is by having you play the game. Any one feature taken by itself without the benefit of the rest of the system can seem quite limited. Like a symphony, the whole game needs to be experienced to appreciate one specific system.
We are not ready to talk about specific plans regarding our spell or combat system because we’re still designing it. We could implement a system that you suggest, and then we need to test it to make sure it works with the rest of the game. If we find that the system does not fit, we will change it, or change what is making it not fit. Until we get something we are happy with the details have to be vague.
It’s also entirely possible that the whole mana system fails as well, and we have to come up with something else.
Once systems are locked down, we may release specific details, that will remain to be seen.
Dragon Age Languages (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399925&post=3310017&forum=84&highlight=)
It's actually a little gremlin type creature that has a special attack of biting knees.
We're just not sure if it's going to be blue, or green.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Georg Zoeller, Designer</font>
Cutscenes vs. Scripted Sequences (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400361&post=3309161&forum=84&highlight=)
<hr />I don't think the scripted sequences in HL2 offered any more or any less than a cutscene would have. Seems to me that since HL takes place entirely in first person, they just decided to leave it that way for the interaction.
You can't do anything to "break" these scripted sequences because your bullets go straight through NPCs and the physics and interaction are turned "off" for things the NPCs are going to use.
And YES there are going to be scripted sequences of that kind in Dragon Age. There were only about a million of them in Baldur's Gate, NWN, and KotOR. They were called dialogue.<hr />HL2 is a special case. If you look on how the important cutscenes are set up, the player is always confined to the area of the cutscene by clever level design (not talking about the cool little scripted things like the crow getting eaten, etc). This work well for a linear setup like HL2, but it would get old and noticeable pretty fast in an RPG environment.
It's a matter of approach - design locations to fit your cutsenes or have cutscenes take place in locations you designed for your story and world. The more open your game get's the more expensive approach #1 becomes.
The best option IMO is to use both - for really important game events where you have cutscenes to drive forward the story, specifically design the location with the cutscene in mind - for the standard cutscene in between, place your cameras and shots in a way to take advantage of the area instead of spending a lot of resources in making the art fit the cutscene.
<font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial" color="#cc6600">Dan Whiteside, Designer</font>
Romances (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=399586&post=3309655&forum=84&highlight=)
You have to play a female character and the (subtle) romance is with the cat-woman. I can't remember her name right now.
There is also a possible gay romance with Kaidala the nymph in Kingmaker, and she is another example of one who can romance either gender.
More: No problem, and I just remembered her name. I think it is Juhani.
bioware: design focus for dragon age? (http://forums.bioware.com//viewpost.html?topic=400218&post=3309688&forum=84&highlight=)
Actually the Jon Snow storyline has magical races, so they do exist. DA's relation to Martin's world is more one of atmosphere and political intrigue. We didn't just take his world and change a few names. It is definitely our own vision of a unique world.