I would like to invite the good people of Sorcerer's Place to a party - an international party held by the good people of the internet to celebrate the birthday of notorious conman and all-round arsehole, Mr L. Ron Hubbard. :)

For those who have not being paying attention to the internet for the last few months, Anonymous - a loose internet group/subculture - has declared war on the Church of Scientology. The first wave of worldwide protests was held on the 10th of February, and the second will be held this Saturday (15th of March).

Over the past month we've been watching the wins roll in as more people defect, more groups withdraw their support, and the CoS gets generally negative media coverage. The CoS has been scrambling amusingly to combat the threat - I think the attempt to get a restraining order against 'Anonymous' is pure gold, really :D

So now it's time to make another show of force in meatspace. We're doing so with delicious caek and party hats, in addition to the standard signs and flyers.

Further Information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies
www.enturbulation.org --- pretty much Anonymous's command centre for the raids. You can find details of your local protest there.
www.xenu.net
www.whyweprotest.net/
www.youfoundthecard.com

The last raid was awesome and there's no reason to think that this one won't be even more so.

If anyone wants to turn this into a general thread for discussing Scientology, feel free.

Haha, indeed. Shame I couldn't take part myself, but yeah, it has been pretty nice this far.

About Scientology in general. It's about the only "religion" I will say is wrong and stupid without any sort of redeeming points. And should any scientologist hear this, then I guess I should get ready for the mighty Xenu knocking on my door with a ray gun :alien:

I don't know a lot about Scientology, but from what little I do know their practices are . . . . concerning. My own beliefs are considered "way put there" by many so although I think the Scientologists beliefs are strange, I feel they have every right to believe them. The accusations of brainwashing, blackmail and censorship are what concern me.

That said, the group is still legally a religion in the US and elsewhere. I'm all for protests, but these attacks on the group do not appear to be legal. If the protestors want to mount protests, excellent. If they want to convince the legal authorities to take action against the Scientologists, I'd be willing to chip in some $ to pay for court costs. I'm not so keen on the legally and ethically questionable hacker techniques that I just read about on the Wikipedia article. Scientology critics other than Anonymous mentioned their concerns about this as well.

My small, unpopular religion could be the next target, and so following the Golden Rule, I'm raising these points.

Agreed, LKD, hacking is really not the best way to win anything nor to get people behind the cause. However, not nearly everyone in the project Chanology is taking any part in it. It's just a very little amount of people. I don't even know if there's anything going on any more. But yeah, it's definately not the right way, the peaceful demonstrations and protests are the point here.

Everything I hear about them makes them sound like true nutjobs, but like LKD, I can't condone such attacks without proof that they are up to something seriously nefarious.

I'm not sure which ammendment to the US constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but I know it's there. Such cyber attacks are not unlike the mobs that formed against the Early Mormons to drive them from any community they tried to settle in. Sure there is less violence, but the same bigotry is there.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe what I hear about them, and don't trust them, but I will not seek to destroy them without just cause.

Wait - guys - you've got the wrong idea! :p

The hacking techniques have been sworn off by pretty well everyone following a video released by Wise Beard Man asking us not to. Anonymous is going way out of its way to do things legally.

Also, we're not protesting their beliefs. Their beliefs are stupid, but they're entitled to them. These protests are only about the actions of the CoS.

And you want proof that they're up to no good? Google 'Operation Snow White' or 'Operation Freakout'. They were, IIRC, convicted for Operation Snow White (which was an infiltration attempt of the US government).

Anyway - I went to the Brisbane protest today, and it was made of win. http://www.flickr.com/photos/24676387@N05/

Haha, good going, Aik. Shame I couldn't get into my "local" (still really far from here) protest. Here's hoping that the next one will be in Helsinki or somesuch.
Also, what you said. It's not about the religion, it's about what it causes.

I can't condone such attacks without proof that they are up to something seriously nefarious.

How's killing someone under the guise of "medical treatment"? Nefarious enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson

Or how about infiltrations and thefts from over 100 government offices? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

Freedom of religion is one thing, but being a money-grubbing, homocidal cult is another.

These guys have protection, but people get up in arms over a guy that has two wives? WTF?

Indeed, the poor sod has already got his punishment. Can you imagine 2 sets of in-laws?

Edit: Woah, a cursory check of Wikipedia got me some crazy stuff on scientologists... And I thought those Mormon missionaries in my hometown were creepy.

Actually, even though I am a Mormon, I still have trouble understanding how polygamy really would work...

I'd say most people wouldn't be able to afford it anyway... I think it's allowed in a few Muslim countries, but I don't think it's particularly common there, either.

I find it funny how people find believing in an alien named Xenu is weird and freaky while find it perfectly normad to believe in a horned, goatee wearing entity called Satan. Seriously, scientology is absolutely mindboggling strange and any sane person would be hard pressed to believe all the bull, however it is no more mindbogglingly strange than the stuff in the bible or koran.

Scientologists, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and all the others are on the very same level of weirdness. Singling out one is in my eyes quite hypocritical.

The sect structure, brain washing and coercion used by scientologists has been and is being used by representatives and sects of all religions and nothing unique for them.

joacqin - Scientology isn't being targeted for its stupid beliefs, it's being targeted for its infuriating actions.

The techniques of Scientology may be used by other cults, but, well, what's your point? Scientology is pretty much the worst of the bunch, and the most high profile. It is also the greatest lol cow of them all.

The two all encompassing reasons for targeting Scientology:
1. Because they are wankers - destroy lives, etc. etc.
2. For the lulz - because they do incredibly hilarious things, especially when people **** with them.

With these two reasons, I think that puts them higher on the 'worthwhile target' list than any other cult.

Though with all that aside, your points still don't give any reason why not to target Scientology. 'Other groups are just as bad' is no reason not to stamp out this one which is bad.

I remember hearing 10-15 (or more:geezer:) years ago about an organization in America that ran a "hotline" for family members of Scientologists. Where people could call and ask advice if a relative had joined Scientology and cut off all connections with their family.

The Cult...errr, Church of Scientology sued the organization repeatedly, of course losing all the cases. But the point was that the organization was financially ruined by the repeated lawsuits.

Guess who bought up their facilities after the organization went bancrupt? Yep, the abovementioned Cult of S. Of course they didn't exactly advertise the fact. Rather, when people called to ask advice, they got to speak to a very concerned person at the other end - except that, unbeknownst to the caller, the "very concerned person" was a Scientologist. :mad:

I don't advocate using illegal and/or coercive means against Scientology. But I can see how it can be tempting to give them a taste of their own "Fair Game" policy. :flaming:

Aik, I am not saying you shouldnt attack scientologists, I applaud the fact. I am just saying that doing so from a position as a devout Christian, Jew or whatever is pretty hypocritical if we are talking beliefs alone. As for their practices, yes they are among the most viscious and cynical out there but again nothing unique. My entire point is that by focusing purely on one sect you easily neglect the thousands of others out there. Secterism, brainwashing and darn it, religion needs to be fought everywhere. There is a gradual difference between the scientologists and your neighbourhood church but in essence and when all things are said and done they are all the same.

Joacqin, your rampant hate for religion borders on placing you in the category of those extreme cults. I don't have a problem with you not believing, but saying that major intellectual figures like Einstein must have been insane to believe that the evidence of physics pointed to a creator as opposed to random chance sounds a lot like brainwashing to me.

Furtermore, you are the only one here to talk about attacking Sceintology for its beliefs. No one here is being hypocritical on that note.

Well, if those "beliefs" are that they have the right to destroy lives and violate the law on a whim then we should also attack those beliefs! But that's not what we're talking about, is it?

I did a little more reading -- in many countries it seems that Scientology has not proved to the country that their organization is a religion, and as such has no legal status there. The U.S. wishes to be as open minded about such things as possible and so grants them status as a religion, but they can only hide behind that shield for so long if they are committing obvious, blatant criminal acts of coercion. I say protest and criticize these folks to your heart's content, and help the judicial branch of your local government gather as much evidence as possible about their criminal acts, but don't break the law yourself as a tech vigilante or you will actually strengthen your target and demean yourself. I'm glad that most people have distanced themselves from the cyber-attacks.

NOG, the fact that there might or not might not be somekind of divine being has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of any of the established religions. Thinking that there might be a divine being and believing in the word of Moses, Mohammed or Tom Cruise are not related in any way whatsoever.

People seem to jump from "maybe there is something greater than us" to "Jesus turned water into wine and thats a fact" without pondering the ten thousand leaps of insane faith in between.

NOG, the fact that there might or not might not be somekind of divine being has no bearing whatsoever on the voracity of any of the established religions.

voracity

Main Entry: vo·rac·i·ty
Function: noun
Date: 1526
: the quality or state of being voracious

1 : having a huge appetite : ravenous
2 : excessively eager : insatiable

Hunger? Religion? What? Ugh. I am so confused.

Careful, your statements to the effect of ‘there is no connection between God and religion’ might make some people laugh. (Like when you committed your previous malapropism.) :lol:

Marking words and erroneous placement of one letter is an awesome tool of debating. I salute you!

Not actually reading what someone typed is another. I stand in awe of your amazing brilliance.

Oh, please. You take yourself far too seriously. You used the word incorrectly and it was funny. Get over it.

And let's not cast aspersions about other people's debating skills when yours could use some help. You make assumptions and statements about religion without explaining or backing them up at all. Since you've taken the point of view that God (if He exists) has no bearing on organized religion, I'd like to see something that explains why you think that. Because just because you've said it doesn't mean I have to believe it. You didn't even explain the difference between what I interpreted you to have said and what you did say. You merely displayed even more "amazing blrilliance" and just got sarcastic and defensive. I wasn't coming here to debate, just to poke fun. But since you brought it up, so be it.

You say that there is a huge leap from "maybe there is something greater than us" to miracles and religion in general. The problem with your logic is:

1) You don't even understand (or ignore) what religions like Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity believe. They don't believe that maybe there is a God. They beleive for certain there is a God. Not only does He exist, but He has an interest in humanity, which leads to my next point.

2) According to these 3 major religions, the reason why God has an interest in mankind is because He created us. After creation, He set up some ground rules for how we should live--that comes to us through religion. Ideally, that is what religion teaches. Not surprisingly, these religions beleive that they are they correct message from God and they have some sort of way of validatiing that, at least to themselves. The idea is that people like Moses or Mohammed got their teachings from God, and they pass His word on to us. So, when you make "god has no bearing on religion" sorts of statements and assume we know and understand your anti-religion stance, forgive me if I laugh because that sort of an assumption to me is funny.

It sounds as if you think that if there is a supreme being he doesn't care about us and there is no Official Religion of God (tm). In light of what I've just explained I find that idea laughable. A wise and powerful being such as God certainly would have given mankind some sort of help in this life and this guidance takes the form of religion. It is so hard to recognise now because human beings decided to get in on the act after realizing that religion can be both lucrative and controlling. That is where all the religious confusion has come from and why we are now talking about Scientology.

A wise and powerful being such as God certainly would have given mankind some sort of help in this life and this guidance takes the form of religion. It is so hard to recognise now because human beings decided to get in on the act after realizing that religion can be both lucrative and controlling. That is where all the religious confusion has come from and why we are now talking about Scientology.

Is He wise and powerful or not? Because if He is, then 'all this religious confusion' is part of His design.

Unless you want to argue that He couldn't foresee that, y'know, fallible humanity might corrupt The One True Faith. Or, for that matter, that He couldn't do anything to address the issue once it arose. Of course, if you do want to make those claims, then He doesn't meet my standards for 'wise and powerful'.

Of course, if you do want to make those claims, then He doesn't meet my standards for 'wise and powerful'.

If He has the wisdom and power of a god, then I would caution against measuring Him against a measuring stick set by humanity. He does not answer to us nor does he have to explain Himself to us, although we may come to know the answers in time, in this life or the next. An apt analogy is this: parents put babies and children though all sorts of stuff that seems rather awful to the child (my son hates getting his diapers changed when he has a rash) for their own good. The child does not possess the wisdom to understand the reason for what they are being put through. I would venture that our wisdom is on a similar scale compared to His.

To speak more specifically to your question, AMaster, about the religious confusion, I think that He allows it to happen. If He were to smack down any competing manmade religions, the right choice would certainly be clear and easy but not very worthwhile. It would be like taking a test with the answer sheet in hand.

Is this a good approach for Him to take? Depends on what you think the point of this life is.

To speak more specifically to your question, AMaster, about the religious confusion, I think that He allows it to happen. If He were to smack down any competing manmade religions, the right choice would certainly be clear and easy but not very worthwhile. It would be like taking a test with the answer sheet in hand.

Which is pretty much my point; God shares responsibility for the 'confusion'.

I find it funny how people find believing in an alien named Xenu is weird and freaky while find it perfectly normad to believe in a horned, goatee wearing entity called Satan.

Two things: First, what is this Xenu teaching. Perhaps it is not his origin but what he expects of his followers that would make Scientology more foreign to people as opposed to mainstream religion. Second, as a Mormon, I don't believe that Satan has horns or a goatee. I believe that portrayal of Satan is more from pop culture than actual doctrine.

As for their practices, yes they are among the most viscious and cynical out there but again nothing unique.

Sad but true. Many groups take the name of their Diety to commit attrocities and hurt the faithful.

People seem to jump from "maybe there is something greater than us" to "Jesus turned water into wine and thats a fact" without pondering the ten thousand leaps of insane faith in between.

Leap one: God is the creator of all things.
Leap two: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and thus would share His power over creation.
Leap three: Christ used that power to perform miracles on varied occasions (such as turning water to wine).

Not that difficult, but maybe not as simple. Sometimes religious experience just feels cheapened by trying to put it into words...

GB: It may not be a mistake, so much as a commentary on Religion. How many televangelists use the name of Christ to encourage donations to their cause, then skim off the top to support a luxurious lifestyle? In another recent thread, the Roman Catholic Church has faced accusations that they hold billions in assets that they've used their position to acquire over the centuries. Even my own faith has not been spared such allegations (Ask T2Bruno for more such charges and he'd be hapy to provide them).

Is He wise and powerful or not? Because if He is, then 'all this religious confusion' is part of His design.

He gives us the doctrine, but once given, it is in the stewardship of man, where it can get warped and twisted to the point where it may be hard to recognize or understand for someone of a different religious tradition. When my Grandmother was buried a week ago, the minister was of a different faith than my own. The tone of the prayers she gave and the nature of the ordinances involved were foreign to me. I could tell that they were Christian, but I had a harder time relating to them on their terms.

Or, for that matter, that He couldn't do anything to address the issue once it arose.

Actually, He did just that on many occasions. Adam was given instructions upon leaving the Garden of Eden. Noah given instructions around the great flood, Abraham around the rise of Babylon, or Moses when the decendants of Abraham were leaving Egypt. He even sent His son, Jesus Christ, to set straight the teachings and to provide the promised atonement. To the Mormons, Joseph Smith was similarly raised as a Prophet to once again fix things. The problem is that the people get set in their ways and don't realize what God is doing...

Which is pretty much my point; God shares responsibility for the 'confusion'.

He knew it would happen, but could not prevent it without making our decisions for us. When we came to Earth, we were given the ability to choose our actions for ourselves. We are given a Law to follow, and will be judged accordingly.

Giles, I have no idea what you are talking about but it has no bearing whatsoever on what I have written in this thread. I am going to try to condense it so you might be able to understand despite the fact that most of your brain is occupied with the entire Oxford dictionary.

The leap from "there might be a divine being" to "Jesus was the son of God and everything in the bible is true" is the exact same leap as the one from "there might life on another planets" to "the scientologists are right". For me there very little correlation between the first and second statement in each example. Hope you managed to understand it better now but I am sure you will focus on finding some typing or spelling error you can make fun of. :)

Gnarf, actually Xenu is the bad guy of the religion. Apparently, Kidnapped billions as the galactic evil overlord, hauled the poor sods to earth in spaceships that looked like Boeing 707s IIRC, put them all next to nearby volcanos and blew the volcanos up with atom bombs. And then all the dead souls, called thetans, wandered the earth until they found the early humans, latched into their bodies and stayed there. And that's why we're unhappy, thetans cause it. Correct me if there are mistakes in there, it's been a little while since I last read about scientology.
Not too related, but though I'd add it anyways.

Could the complaints against religion in general/the defences against that please go and find another thread to pointlessly debate until the end of time? Let's stick to Scientology here - if you want to contrast it with other religions, sure - but discussing other religions here as the main deal isn't worthwhile. It's already been said a million million time.

I heard from a friend of mine that there's some sort of investigation going on in Germany against the church of scientology and it being a pyramid scheme. Now if that's true then of course the church of scientology is actually running a criminal organization dedicating itself for robbing people. A cynic might say that all religions do that but there's a difference between money going to church coffers and it going directly to private accounts. The first is legitimate the second is not.

Other than that there surely are a lot of crazy beliefs around and I think all this attention the scientologists keep getting over all these others will only make them more known and probably increase their membership, which is sort of sad.

On a personal note I leave it up for the police and courts to determine if they have done anything illegal or not, if they haven't then they are free to continue with their activities, I see no particular reason of protesting against scientologists as long as they live by the rules.

I think that's the crux of the argument against them, Morgoroth -- there seems to be a great deal of evidence that the Scientologists are NOT following the rules of civilized society. That being the case, it is the right and some might even say duty of citizens to bring this information to light and to the proper authorities. When it comes to punishment, though, that should be done by the authorities, not by individual groups.

For anyone who is in doubt that Scientology deserves this much attention in the for-great-justice department - some stories:

http://forums.enturbulation.org/showthread.php?t=3971
http://www.ecentral.com/members/skeller/

There are many more: www.exscientologykids.org has quite a few (and is more concise than the above).

This is why.

The bit about Disconnection seemed the scariest of all. They draw people away from their families and keep them through fear? WTF?

It really sounds creepy as heck, I agree. It reminds me of those stories of sects from the early- and mid-90s here, when every now and then people would commit suicide or emerge with talk about some sick cult which amounted to (near) mindrape. It was so bad that even though it's been over a decade since the last known cases, and there are still few words in Bulgarian with more negative connotation than "sect."

I'm very wary about any religious training program, but some of that stuff makes my hair stand on end.

So, the Operation Reconnect protest is on this Saturday, with the focus on raising awareness of the cult's disconnection policy. Anyone else going?