From a role-playing perspective, I’ve always felt that the best weapon a thief could use for backstabbing is a dagger. However, being somewhat of a powergamer at heart (a habit that I am trying to break), I just can’t bring myself to spending points on daggers when the other thief weapons seem so much better. From doing a search of the Boards, I know that there are people who like using daggers, but I’m having difficulty selling the idea to myself. So, I’m looking to you – please give me a reason (or reasons) why daggers are just as good overall as other thief weapons. And if you can give me a reason why a dagger is as good as Celestial Fury (other than the obvious role-playing answer), then I shall worship you as I would a god. :)

I have found very few effective daggers for backstabbing, although one of the most useful daggers is the poisoned throwing dagger, especially against mages, due to it's incredibly fast poison. If you do take a dagger for backstabbing i recommend the Pixie Prick, as if the sleep is successful it makes life a lot easier if the target is not killed on the first attack.

The Fire Tooth +3 dagger deals out 2d4 +3 damage + 1d2 fire damage (6-13 + strength bonus) which is pretty good for a dagger. The Celestial Fury deals out 1d10 +3 (4-13 + strength bonus) but has a 5% chance of 20 extra damage + the ability to stun unless save...

Especially the ability to stun makes the Celestial Fury priceless but as you can see the base damage of the Fire Tooth is actually higher!
And on another note, the Fire Tooth can also be thrown which gives you ranged attacks AND the ability to wear a shield - and you won't have to drag great amounts of throwing daggers around...
Fire Tooth has fire damage which will go through Stone Skin/Iron Skins, great when fighting mages...

If used correctly Fire Tooth can match up with Celestial Fury imo - mainly because it's more of a role playing weapon.

And in ToB you can get some really cool daggers with great side effects - but that's another story...

[ July 29, 2003, 06:30: Message edited by: Victor Eremita ]

Weimer's Item Upgrade mod gives you a pretty sweet dagger. Give the Bone Blade, Pixie Prick, 4 Potions of Master Thievery and 15,000 Gold to Cromwell and he's forge for you:

Quietus +4 (Dagger)
Increase backstab multiplier by 1. Target must save vs. poison at -2 or suffer blindness or sleep for 12 seconds.

Not sure the base damage, but I'm assuming it's a 1d6.

@ Victor Eremita (or anyone else) - Question on Firetooth – it’s a throwing dagger. Can it also be used for melee? And if so, does it avoid the penalties that other ranged weapons have when used at close range? (I don’t really have any experience with throwing weapons.) If the answer to both these questions is “yes”, then the only comment I have is that Celestial Fury is available earlier than Firetooth. However, aside from that, all I have to say is that I’m glad I’m an atheist, so that my worshipping you as I would a god doesn’t amount to much. :p And EvilDow’s suggestion for Pixie Prick (along with the poisoned throwing dagger) seems like a good alternative until you get Firetooth.

And thanks for the upgrade suggestion, D.R. I don’t have any mods installed, but that one looks like it may be worthwhile.

I’m well on my way to being convinced here. Anybody else have any other thoughts on good daggers?

In melee, the Firetooth is considered a melee weapon when you have it set as such. AFAIK, you don't get any penalty if you still have it set to throwing. However, since it doubles as a throwing weapon, it can't be used in the off-hand, nor can you equip another weapon in the off-hand while using it. Something to keep in mind if you plan on dual-wielding.

If you use Blucher's expanded thief strongold mod, you can get a dagger that is perfect for dual wielding-- it gives either two or three stars in dual wield proficiency as well as some other nifty bonuses.

@Splunge
Just to clarify:
If you right-click on Fire Tooth and select abilities you'll be able to set it for melee.

Oh, and do you have ToB installed?

It is also possible, due to game design more than anything, to use short swords as valid backstabbing weapons whilst still roleplaying. There are a number of short swords designed to be used for backstabbing, the most obvious of these being named so. "Short Sword of Backstabbing: 'The Shadow's Blade'
The Shadow's Blade was created to be the perfect assassin's tool. It is highly sought after by any who settle differences with a blade, and many that possess it do not do so for long."

@EvilDow
But in an unmodded game the Short Sword of Backstabbing isn't all that great - the name is cool but actually it's just a +3 short sword... I think there's a mod somewhere that changes its stats if it's used as a backstabbing weapon?

@ Death Rabbit + Victor Eremita - thanks for the info on how to set Firetooth for melee. Does this apply to all throwing weapons (other than darts, presumably), or just this one? This weapon is looking better and better.
@ Victor Eremita - nope, no TOB installed (otherwise, this thread is on the wrong forum ;) )
@ EvilDow - actually, any thief weapon can be used for backstabbing while roleplaying if you accept the definition of 'backstabb' as a sneak attack from behind. I don't really have a problem with this myself, but when I think of backstabbing, I keep thinking of all those spy movies where one spy walks up behing an enemy spy, pulls out a small, sharp weapon, and sticks it in a vital organ; kind of hard to do with a staff or katana :shake: . On the other hand, the BG series isn't modelled after a spy movie, so there are arguments on both sides.
@ Victor Eremita (again) - the modified Short Sword of Backstabbing isn't in the mod Death Rabbit referred to (not that you said it was); maybe the expanded thief strongold mod CamDawg mentioned?

Yes, it does. I tried in vain to equip Azuredge, Dwarven Thrower, Firetooth and others while dual-wielding...no dice. :mad:

Besides specific weapons, daggers are quick, and throwing daggers can be thrown multiple times a round, with just one star in the proficiency slot. A mage being hit three or four times a round will find it hard to cast anything, let alone run away. Fighters being hit will find it hard to step towards you after being hit every second...just make sure you can get a decent thaco. I found it fun to stock up, and with the ease of use mod, you don't need to change a stack of them every minute. Just my two cents...

@ Splunge

It's not part of the expanded thief stronghold, and I'm pretty sure it isn't Weimer's item upgrade mod. There are so many item upgrade mods, it could be any one of them.

This is a bit :yot: but let me get this straight:

Are you saying that any weapon that has in its description "returns to users hand when thrown", which probably amounts to about 10 different weapons, can also be used as a melee weapon by right clicking on it to select abilities? This works for Dwarven Thrower, Azurege, Boomerang Dagger, etc?

Yup. Precisely why the "disadvantage" of Berserkers' and Cavaliers' penalty to missile weapon use isn't that big of a deal. :cool:

[ July 29, 2003, 18:11: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

Despite the discussion here (http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004189#000000), you could also add Kensai to that group :spin:

Thanks for all the comments, folks! Next thief -> daggers!!

I don't see any point in taking a singleclassed purethief or any kit... Personnally I'd take one Half-elf or Halfling Fighter/Thief, whom I'll develop further in spending a point on dual-wielding and Short and Long Swords...

I don't see any point in taking a singleclassed purethief or any kit I guess you've never tried an assassin. I currently have a 3 character party going - Assassin, Archer and Sorcerer. The assassin is doing most of the work with his backstab.