The higher the better. Sure are a lot of Alternation spells...

Confusion (Enc)
-I suppose this could be useful. But all it does is make them screw off for a while. They'll still attack you if you attack them. And having to chase them around is something that should be avoided.

Contagion (N)
-The only way to cure this is with an anti-disease type spell. I've never actually seen an enemy cast Cure Disease, but probably Heal.. or maybe not. The permanent affect is the interesting part. I wonder if it works on people who re-appear constantly, like that havarian guy.

Emotion (Enc)
-I suppose this could be used like the level 2 spell Resist Fear, but with an offensive edge it to for solo mages.

Enchanted Weapon (Enc)
-Meh, I thought this was pretty bad. +3 isn't that spectacular.

Farsight (D)
-Good for recon. Useful if you plan to lay up an ambush and stuff like that. Otherwise, no. There's better alternatives like an invisible character.

Fireshield [Blue] (Evo/Alt)
-Like Protection from Cold, there's just not that many enemies with cold attacks. However, that works will the damage when they hit you. But that shouldn't be the case as getting hit isn't something you should be doing. It'd be useful if you could cast it on others.

Fireshield [Red] (Evo/Alt)
-This with Protection from Fire grants you fire immunity. Useful for using fireballs wherever, and whenever without worry about hurting yourself.

Greater Malison (Enc)
-One of the important spells all mages should take in this level. Not much to say really.

Ice Storm (Evo)
-I suppose if you took Protection from Cold and the blue Fireshield, you could spam this spell. The damage is relatively low.

Improved Invisibility (I)
-This is a rather useful spell. Not only are you immune to direct-target spells, but you gain something like an AC bonus, and saving throws too.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Abj)
-Useful if you plan to use Lightning from the previous level frequently. It's pretty weak overall and becomes a lot less useful as you move on.

Minor Sequencer (Evo)
-This is another important spell for the level. Could load it up with something as simple as 2 magic missiles for some good instant damage, or 2 webs to ensure they're stuck in case they survive a saving throw.

Monster Summoning II (C)
-Like the first one, pretty bad. Even if you do want to use it for fodder and whatnot.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alt)
-This spell is useless. Puts you in a held form where you can't be targets and magic does nothing to you. And even if you want to cast it on yourself, you gotta make a saving throw.

Polymorph Other (Alt)
-I believe this ruins any loot the enemy would normally have. It's rather useless with a not-so-short casting time and a saving throw without a penalty.

Polymorph Self (Alt)
-It's got a few uses, nothing spectacular though.

Remove Curse (Abj)
-I've never had to remove a curse before, and if I did, I have a cleric to do it.

Secret Word (Abj)
-Removes protections up to the 8th level, but only 1. Useful if you don't want use the higher level spells to remove protections.

Spider Spawn (C)
-I used to use these quite often, until I got to level 15.

Spirit Armor (N)
-This is THE armor spell if you plan on getting any at all. Frees up a bracer slot.

Stoneskin (Alt)
-You'd be a fool not to take this.

Teleport Field (Alt)
-This is like opening up a can of randomness.

Wizard Eye (Alt)
-Excellent scout. Who needs an invisible thief after this. You don't even need to enter battle after casting this with some summons.


Alright, time to list the good ones and pick out the best after.

Fireshield [Red]
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility
Minor Sequencer
Polymorph Self
Secret Word
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye

No point in taking the Fireshield if you aren't going for the fire immunity. Same idea with Polymorph Self, you'll need some other spells to assist you in order to become effective.

I end up always choosing these 4: Greater Malison, Minor Sequencer, Stoneskin, and Wizard Eye. I use them quite often and are too good to pass up.

Spirit Armor is all dependent on what bracers you want to use (AC3 seem to the best at the moment). Though +2 more AC and +3 more saving throws against magic is pretty good.

[ August 08, 2007, 07:44: Message edited by: syuusaru ]

Can you contingency a Prot. From Fire, Fireshield, and Fireball at the same time?

Seems like a good combination for when you ever get stuck in melee...the fireball hurts the attacker(s), heals you (if you have enough fire res.), and the fireshield hurts him/them even more if he/they get(s) another attack off.

Haven't tried this though, not sure if it'd work as well as it sounds on paper.

syuu:

Polymorph Other (Alt)
-I believe this ruins any loot the enemy would normally have. It's rather useless with a not-so-short casting time and a saving throw without a penalty.
The above isn't correct. But that's hardly your fault, because the in game description is wrong.

1. You don't lose the loot. If you kill the squirrel, you will receive all of the loot the monster had prior to polymorph.

2. The enemy receives a +2 bonus to saving throws.


Alright, time to list the good ones and pick out the best after.

Fireshield [Red]
Greater Malison
Minor Sequencer
Polymorph Self
Secret Word
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye
Decent spells which I think you haven't listed:

- Spider Spawn = Spider Spider + Web combo kicks ass.

- Ice Storm = Only damaging offensive spell on this level. Opponents don't get a save.

- Fireshield (Blue) = Can be used to 'suicide' enemies. Read up on the tactic I authored here: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=029169#000000

- Polymorph Self = The fact that you're able to use spells in a contigency while Polymorphed is truly awesome. A Tensored Sword Spider who is Improved Haste to 8 attacks per round, and is hitting with Ghoul Touch? Hmmm. I've also found the wolf polymorph useful for those few times when you have to resist cold.

- Teleport Field = There are two types of randomness: Good randomness, and bad randomness. This spell is 'good' randomness (or as Haer Daelis would say: Entropy).

- Improved Invisibility = 99% of spellcasters in the game can't target you, even when you attack them. Combine with Immunity from Divination to remain hidden.

Ah yes, forgot about Improved Invisibility.

As for the Polymorph, it mentions their armor and equipment molding into the new form, hence I'd assume the loot (equipped items) would be destroyed. But the items that they carry (potions/gold/jewels) would not.

Spider Spawn becomes useless once you hit 15. Web, however, does not. The spiders just become too weak and take damage from just about anything with hardly any resistance (if any). It's no long term spell.

Ice Storm may not have a save, but the huge radius of effect works against yourself, and the damage is far too low for a spell this level. Fireball/skull trap would do more damage, which are lower level spells. Much easier to control and instantaneous. Even after the save, it still does more damage than Ice Storm.

That strategy with the Fireshield is far too ineffective. Basically you want them to hit you so they take damage. That is, after putting up all your protections. Also, you'd be limiting yourself to melee enemies. That's a waste of an extra spell slot just for that.

Once again, with the polymorph and tenser's etc. Too many preparations for only a moderate effect.

You'll have to justify how Teleport Field could possibly be good. The idea of having enemies constantly teleporting around, and having the chance of them appear right next to you doesn't sound good to me. Makes things troublesome for party members and yourself if you want to target them all at once.

syuu:

Spider Spawn becomes useless once you hit 15. Web, however, does not. The spiders just become too weak and take damage from just about anything with hardly any resistance (if any). It's no long term spell.
Sword Spiders don't need to be powerhouses. It's like Bruce Lee from 'Enter the Dragon'... "Board's don't hit back". Likewise, webbed enemies don't hit back. And they are much easier to hit.

Sword Spiders have a 'stuck' Ring of Free Action, which pretty much means that they are immune to Hold, Grease, Web, etc.

As for the Polymorph, it mentions their armor and equipment molding into the new form, hence I'd assume the loot (equipped items) would be destroyed. But the items that they carry (potions/gold/jewels) would not.
I can say with 100% certainty that you get all of the items off a polymorphed opponent. Polymorph Other was a staple spell for my solo sorc.


That strategy with the Fireshield is far too ineffective.
Basically you want them to hit you so they take damage. That is, after putting up all your protections. Also, you'd be limiting yourself to melee enemies. That's a waste of an extra spell slot just for that.
You're essentially putting up protections that your sorc would use anyway, even if he doesn't employ the tactic.

Stoneskin? I cast that before every fight. Same with Mirror Image. And Fireshield. The only two out of the ordinary are protection from magic weapons and improved haste on your opponent.

An average of 192 damage over 4 rounds is huge. And it's not impractical... it works. I've put it into practice. You could double that by having two Fireshield's going at once.

Also note that Fireshield damage bypasses magic resistance.

Once again, with the polymorph and tenser's etc. Too many preparations for only a moderate effect
Hardly. It works fantastically for difficult enemies. A held enemy = A dead enemy.


You'll have to justify how Teleport Field could possibly be good.
Any time a fighter/archer within 5 (?) foot attempts to attack you, they are automatically teleported away. Without the fixpack, they get no save.

RE: teleport field, I was of the understanding that it worked well on melee attackers (as it teleported them away before they can get close enough to hit), but not so well on archers/ranged/spell casters as being moved around isn't too much of a disadvantage for them (as offensively they are just as effective far away as up close). I've never really used this spell to much use (mainly because I've typically found spellcasters tougher than mellee types).

My picks would be:
1.Stoneskin - absolutely essesntial
2.Secret Word - cheapest way to get rid of 90% of all spell protections
3.Improved Invisibility - prevents your protagonist from being targeted by mages.
4.Greater Malison - improves your chance of landing those save or else spells. I don't tend to use it that much (and probably never in the unmodded game), but there have been a few times that it has been absolutally essential to one of my strategies.

Wizard Eye *or* minor sequencer - Neither are essential, but both are fun. Wizard Eye has some good, kinda cheesy uses in that it is completely invulnerable to pretty much everything (this has been tweaked in ToB). Minor Sequencer is kinda alright - double glitterdust or a couple of webs (followed by a spider spawn) can be cool. But yeah, comes down to personal preference.

Fireshields - Yeah, they can be used very effectively, but its never really fitted in with my style of play. Also I think that they tend to be less effective in SoA than in the expansion simply because Prot. from Magical Weapons isn't as great (many SoA enemies use normal weapons) and enemies don't hit quite as often.

[ August 08, 2007, 10:46: Message edited by: Stu ]

Top5:

- Ice Storm (Evo)
I'm not sure, but...wasn't this spell that slowed enemies when they got hit by it?
Anyways...I used it! Any damage is good damage

- Improved Invisibility (I)
There's no need for further informations is it? :p

- Minor Sequencer (Evo)
As said before,great for comboing lesser spells and quick damaging!

- Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alt)
I don't know about you but this spell rocks! I used it on most of my enemys! to have someone locked up is great! love to see their tankers stuck and when they finally came back they were all alone ^^

- Stoneskin (Alt)
One of the best protection spells!

Confusion sucks in this game. It used to be the funniest spell because it makes people do weird things, but not here. If you're going to use confusion, Chaos in the next level is better.

Contagion, Emotion never casted before. Don't know when you'd want to use this instead of a damage spell.

Farsight, Wizard eye I suppose are useful if you play a summoning strategy. Also has role-playing value if you're trying to not know there's a battle coming up.

Fireshield, I used to employ that strategy in the old Gold Box games, but the damage got nerfed so I never tried it in BG2. But sounds like it could be done, with the right supporting spells. Does the damage stack with the evil cleric's lightning shield?

I think Monster Summoning II is actually worse than the Monster Summoning I. Fodder-wise, you can't get four guys. Power-wise, spider spawn is better. So not much reason to use this spell.

Otiluke's sphere is interesting, it's like a cheaper version of Maze, but the save makes it unreliable.

Polymorph spells I haven't used. Polymorph other sounds like a potential save-or-die spell. But how reliable is it, and is save vs polymorph easier or harder than save vs death... I don't even know what the polymorph self forms are.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is highly underrated.

If you're an anti-reloader like me, then it saves a loooong trip to a temple, at least until your cleric gets resurrection. Someone in the front ranks finds themselves at 1 hp with no potions left, and poof!

It also works as a good decoy spell. Just send one of your party members into the middle of a battlefield, watch as enemies surround him/her, and then cast the spell. And as baddies keep on fruitlessly attacking, feel free to hurl a couple of fireballs down their way...

If you cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on a party member, do they get a save? If they do it'd be a tad unreliable wouldn't it?

Yeah, I can't see Otiluke's being used as reliable protection for a fellow party member.

It 'might' be useful if you summon some useless fodder with high saves (a Kobold) and then imprison it to act as a decoy.

Edit: Oh, and my Lvl 4 spell list usually looks like this:

Stoneskin
Improved Invisibility
Spider Spawn
Greater Malison
Fireshield (Red)

IMHO, Spider Spawn and Fireshield are not 'vital'. You could replace Spider Spawn with 'Polymorph Other', and still have a good selection for Lvl 4.

[ August 10, 2007, 11:48: Message edited by: The Mountain Hare ]

Otiluke's require a save regardless on who you cast it on, as I've mentioned in my initial post. It's not underrated, it's crap and unreliable as hell.


Farsight is pointless when you have Wizard Eye. If your eye can't reach it, what makes you think you can?


Ice Storm doesn't slow, it just does damage.


hare:

Polymorph Self is still pointless, you already mentioned having to use 3 different level 6 spells. Now you have to web them, have ghoul touch active and use then turn into a spider. If you got hit with a surprise battle/ambush, you'd be screwed with all the spells you need to cast before-hand.

A better and much more effective alternative, haste yourself and skull trap. You have the speed to run away before detonation. So much better and effective. And difficult enemies? If they are going to be easily caught in a web and held, you can easily do the same with a skull trap while they are caught. A dead enemy = a dead enemy.

All your doing is trying to turn a mage into a fighter with a weapon that can stun. There's a much faster and more effective alternative at higher levels for that. That is, if you want to play fighter with mr. mage.


Teleport Field works against you too. It's unreliable like Otiluke's sphere. They could all be far away, and suddenly come next to you. That doesn't make it good unless there's a guaranteed benefit, in which it lacks.


Your tactic with letting enemies kill themselves with Fireshield is weak. 192 damage over 4 rounds? How many fighters are hitting you? Where are the mages that dispel your magic? You'll be mince meat in no time like that. Let's say you did 8 damage back each time. That's 24 hits over 4 rounds. 4 rounds in which you could've been casting spells and they'd be dead before you hit the 2nd round. You're only up against melee fighters, according to your theory. You could outrun them with haste and just have fun picking them off 1 by 1.
Fireshield should only be for the fire protection is offers. But I suppose you could apply this tactic anyway.


Spiders doesn't have to be powerhouses, right, and that's why they are weak. Are you always going to web everything in sight? You think everything is always going to fail their saving throw? With Spiders, you make it sound like Web is a requirement. Which it probably is. The duration isn't very long either. It's useful at the start, but becomes useless later.


You know, a lot of your 'tactics' require higher level spells to make lower level spells more effective. You're going in the wrong direction. You want to make your higher level spells more effective with lower level ones. You're turning weak, into OK. While you should be turning good into uber.
Like I read something about you trying to haste your opponents so they hit your fireshield more often. Well, haste is friendly-only, so you'd probably want improved haste which only affects 1 target.


All in all, I've come down to the 5.

Party:
Greater Malison
Minor Sequencer
Secret Word
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin

Solo:
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility*
Minor Sequencer*
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye
*Fireshield [red] (replace either if you've taken protection from fire at level 3)

Your tactic with letting enemies kill themselves with Fireshield is weak. 192 damage over 4 rounds? How many fighters are hitting you?
Where are the mages that dispel your magic? You'll be mince meat in no time like that. Let's say you did 8 damage back each time. That's 24 hits over 4 rounds. 4 rounds in which you could've been casting spells and they'd be dead before you hit the 2nd round. You're only up against melee fighters, according to your theory. You could outrun them with haste and just have fun picking them off 1 by 1.The idea is to have some sort of protection up (preferably Protection from Magical weapons). With this tactic you're greatly enhancing an already great spell (prot. from magical weapons) by making it a powerful offensive tool rather than just a defensive one. It should be noted that you can most definitely still cast spells during these four rounds, and you'd be a fool not to against some of the tougher enemies. There are also plenty of times where running away hastened is not practical, be it because of the environment, or that the enemy is hastened.

Granted it is probably more powerful in ToB and with difficulty enhancing mods that make the enemy hit more often.

I found Otiluke's Sphere to be useful in encounters which involve one major monster surrounded by a team of minor monsters. Casting Otiluke on the major monster takes it out of the picture and frees up my team to focus on cleaning up the minors. Once the minors are blasted away, all my team needs do is buff up and wait for the Sphere to time out - and attack with gusto!!

Polymorph self is a good spell, an easy way to handle mages. The slime is 100 percent magic resistant. Kangaxx wasted all his spells on Jan polymorphed into slime without effect and gauths can't hurt you in in this form either.

Greater malison is heavily overrated.
The main thing it does is taking a round from your wizard out of combat without causing any harm to the enemies.
-4 penalty isn't that great. If you need it just to you follow up with one chromatic orb or finger of death the chance is at least 80 percent that your GM spell was for nothing.
If you want to weaken enemy groups for area effect spells like chaos you'll get a better effect if you cast chaos directly since the enemies are affected one round earlier, and you could even cast chaos twice during the 2 rounds you need to cast GM+chaos.
For no-reloaders gambling with "effective or totally useless" tactics is too risky, for reloaders desperate "enemy fails his save or reload" methods work also without greater malison.

I have to agree. I have found greater malison to be quite useless. Against the more powerful enemien, the saving throws are already ridicuoulsy high, and -4 really has no effect. They are often immune i "instant death"-spells, confusion etc.. And against "regular" enemies, or groups of enemies, their saving throws are usually so low that your spells work even without GM.

Of level 4 spells, at least soloing, BY FAR the most useful is stoneskin. In fact, it is usually the only lever 4 I use. Having a solo kensai/mage dealing massive damage and stopping only to recast stoneskin every few rounds kills anything.

The main thing it does is taking a round from your wizard out of combat without causing any harm to the enemies.
-4 penalty isn't that great. If you need it just to you follow up with one chromatic orb or finger of death the chance is at least 80 percent that your GM spell was for nothing.
-4 penalty is great if the enemy has good saves. Say your enemy has a save vs. death of 3. That -4 penalty takes it to 7. That means they are three times more likely to fail (before they only fail on 1 or 2, now they fail on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6).

So in this case it's definitely worth using Greater Malison before your Finger of Death or whatever.

I agree. I use Greater Malison all the time.

Preferrably in a sequencer with a nasty attack spell. Works fine for me.

I am particularly fond of using it with Aerie. I find a sequencer with Greater Malison, Doom and Chromatic Orb interesting.

A sequencer makes it worthwhile otherwise the casting time is a real pain.

Doom is certainly one of the reasons why Cleric/Mages are so good at what they do.

Greater Malison kicks ass.

Don't forget that you can hit multiple targets, and it can 'bend' around corners.

It has its uses and is most potent where you really need it (ie against the tougher enemies out there). As with the fireshields it increases in power as your enemies do.

-4 penalty is great if the enemy has good saves. Say your enemy has a save vs. death of 3. That -4 penalty takes it to 7. That means they are three times more likely to fail (before they only fail on 1 or 2, now they fail on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6).
So in this case it's definitely worth using Greater Malison before your Finger of Death or whatever.Not really. Assuming that you find such such a monster which has a sign "save vs. death 3" on its forehead, no MR and doesn't do anything to disturb your caster for two rounds the calculation is the following (FoD saves at -2 penalty):

- 60 percent chance that the FoD still doesn't work.
- 20 percent chance that you have wasted one round since casting FoD would have worked directly.
- Only 20 percent chance that the additionally invested round you could have used for other things (like casting another FoD with 20 percent success chance) leads to success.

But the usefulness of casting GM in combat is even worse since hardly any enemy has low saves and you don't know enemies' saving throws and immunities.
Enemies with low saves have usually over 50 percent MR which will lower the additional success chance of the GM+FoD combo even more. They are often able to kill party members or interrupt your spellcaster during the addtional round you need for the spell combo.

It has its uses and is most potent where you really need it (ie against the tougher enemies out there). As with the fireshields it increases in power as your enemies do. Yes, Kangaxx, Irenicus and the iron golems are already cowering in fear of your powerful GM spells. :lol:

Luckily BG2 was made so cheesy-easy that even funny but inefficient tactics can lead to success. :D

The reasoning given against casting GM gives me pause, although I'm still a little doubtful. But thanks for giving me something to consider. Some questions:

Is the chance of success higher if you cast the same 'hit or die' spell twice, instead of one Greater Malison, followed by a 'hit or die' spell? Let's assume that you have your generic average enemy, with an average save score of 10.

What happens if you intend to follow up with more than one spell? Wouldn't the -ve to saves be additive, in a sense? Ergo. The more spells you intend to cast against a victim, the more the benefits of GM shine through?

And also, perhaps a casting of GM (4th level) would be better than two castings of a 7th level spell (Finger of Death/Prismatic Spray).

Success chance vs a monster with save vs death of 10:
FoD: 55 percent
GM+FoD: 75 percent
FoD+FoD: 79,75 percent

Casting without GM is also cheaper since you'll only need one FoD most of the time.

The planning of casting more disabling spells after GM doesn't change the usefulness much since the little save penalty will only come into play in the 3rd round if the first save succeeded.
3+ rounds are long, your warriors might already have killed the enemy then (or the other way around).

Otiluke's require a save regardless on who you cast it on, as I've mentioned in my initial post. It's not underrated, it's crap and unreliable as hell.I'm pretty sure Otiluke's Sphere is bugged. I've been using it forever in IWD2 and BG2 and I've never had a problem with it; failed saves were rare if even at all, I can't remember entirely. I wouldn't recommend it with a sorcerer, though.

On another note, do you receive reduced experienced when you use summons? I can never remember, and if you do then the value of Spider Spawn would go down a bit...

Hang on a sec.

From what I understand, you roll a number out of 20, and then determine if the opponent's saving throw beats it, right?

So, whether a FoD will be successful = (10+2/20 * 100%) = 0.60%

Whether a FoD will be successful with a prior casting of GM = 10 + 2 + 4 * 100% = 80%

Whether two castings of FoD will be successful is a binomial. So:
http://www.swogstat.org/stat/public/binomial_calculator.htm

Where N = 2, p = 0.6, and t = 1 and 2.
= 0.48 + 0.36 = 0.84 * 100% = 84%

Sorry if I'm wrong with the binomial. I haven't touched them for about 6 years (which is why I used the calc.)

My understanding was that you rolled a D20 and if the number rolled was equal to or higher than your saving throw, then you made the save and were alright (so if a monster had a saving throw of 10 then rolling 1-9 would kill it but between 10 and 20 would be safe)

I think kmonster did his calculations with a saving throw of 12 (rather than the quoted ten) by adding the probability of getting FoD to work first time .55 (11/20, from a saving throw of 12) and adding that to the chance of it working a second time, .45(%chance that the 1st one didn't work) * 0.55 (%chance of it working the second time) =0.2475

so 0.55(1st time) + 0.2475 (2nd time) = 0.7975.

With this example, if the FoD worked the first time it would not be cast the second time.

The Mountain Hare, your calculations are based on casting the FoD twice, at the same time (say in a sequencer) and return the probability of 1 FoD hitting or 2 FoD's hitting (I think...its been a few years since I did them too).

Tough enemies with a saving throw of 3, have a 90% chance of making their save (failing only on rolls of 1 and 2). GM would change the odd in your favour to make you hit 30% of the time (rather than 10). If you really, really need to cast an effect on a monster to win a battle (I'm thinking of some of the tactical mods here) then this is a huge bonus.
[the following is using kmonster's style of calculations, because I don't tend to use too many contingencies...and I'm not too crash hot with binomials]
Eg, you find a monster with a save of 3, you could cast:
FoD+FoD+FoD+FoD
0.1+0.09+0.081+0.0729=0.3439

GM+FoD+FoD (saving throw becomes 7, 30% chance of death)
0.3+0.21=0.51

A much higher chance of success can be achieved with a GM.

Of course this is an extreme example that would only apply to some very tough enemies. With your average enemy it is probably not worth it, but in the tougher fights, where you want to get out as many spells with your mage/sorcerer, priests and multiclasses it can make a big difference.

There are other factors with GM which have not been mentioned. For instance in the last few examples FoD has been discussed, but since this is a 7th level spell and GM is only 4th level a simply mathematical analysis of probabilities of success does not tell the whole story - what if your spellcaster only has one level 7 slot? In this case you can't use two FoD even if you wanted to.

Or maybe you have other 7th level spells (Mordy's Sword comes to mind) that are contending the 7th level slots. In this case the use of GM makes more sense.

Also the low level of GM allows it to be placed in Spell Sequencer/Spell Trigger. This fact makes the spell even more useful.

Stu:

Yeah, I know I messed up, because as you pointed out, if the damage roll = the opponent's saving throw, then it makes its save. So it's actually 11/20. Whoopsie. My bad.

The binomial calculator agrees with you both! The probability of killing a foe with two fingers of death = 0.7975.

Probability of killing a foe with Greater Malison = 15/20 = 0.75

Sorry for the repetition, I'm just typing this stuff on a screen so it makes sense to me.

I always used to think that 'Greater Malison + Save spell' = Always good. But apparently it's not so black and white.

You'd probably be better off just ignoring GM for the lower level spells (Glitterdust, Chromatic Orb, etc.). But with high level spells, it seems more prudent to cast GM beforehand.

In a sense, GM is a 'substitute' spell for the higher level spells. One GM + One Prismatic Spray has only a slightly lower probability of failing to overwhelm the opponent's save than two prismatic sprays.

And as has been pointed out, it's excellent against enemies with tough saves.

Edit: Does this help clear things up, folks?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/greatermalison.jpg

@Stu: My calculation was based on a save vs death of 10 and therefore on a save vs FoD (-2 penalty) of 12.


It's of course no problem constructing theoretical situations where GM can be very useful, but (especially in an unspoiled normal no-reload game) it's not worth blocking a memory slot which could have been used for stoneskin or other level 4 spells.

@MH: Great link ! I always dreamt of a success probality of 1.15 :lol:

kmonster:

@MH: Great link ! I always dreamt of a success probality of 1.15
Yeah, there really is no such thing as a probability of 1.15. Just round it down to 1. The rest of the graph is fine.

The graph demonstrates that two glitterdusts is approx equivalent to one GM + glitterdust if the enemy has good-average-poor saves. However, GM shines if the enemy has really ****ty, or awesome, saves.

So I guess if you're taking on your generic opponent, you must ask yourself.

1. Which would I rather lose? One 4th level spell, or one X level spell.

2. How important is the initiative (first strike with a spell)?

@Stu: My calculation was based on a save vs death of 10 and therefore on a save vs FoD (-2 penalty) of 12. Ah, the manual hints at a -2 penalty, but there is no mention of it in the in-game description. I took it as a manual error, but correct me if I'm wrong.

So I guess if you're taking on your generic opponent, you must ask yourself.

1. Which would I rather lose? One 4th level spell, or one X level spell.

2. How important is the initiative (first strike with a spell)?Also of consideration is how long you intend the battle to last and how many spells you want to cast, you will usually be better off casting GM if you intend on casting more than 2 or 3 spells involving a save.

Some sources mention the -2 penalty with FoD, some don't. I guess it's more likely that the -2 was erroneously omitted than added.

Yeah, there really is no such thing as a probability of 1.15. Just round it down to 1. The rest of the graph is fine. Are you serious ?

Yeah, there really is no such thing as a probability of 1.15. Just round it down to 1. The rest of the graph is fine.

Are you serious ?From what I remember from university stats, probabilities can only be between 0 and 1.

So 1.15 means it will happen 115% of the time, so you may as well round it down.

Had he said you should round a probability of 0.115 down to 0.1, the entire statistical community would have died from shock.

The "are you serious ?" was directed at the "Just round it down to 1. The rest of the graph is fine." Rounding down the 1.15 to 1 doesn't make the graph error-free.

kmonster:

Rounding down the 1.15 to 1 doesn't make the graph error-free.
Why not?

A natural 1 always fails, a natural 20 always succeeds.

^^^All 3 of these lines should be curved because they should all start at zero (and end at twenty), which would throw off the probability a slight amount. But even so, the graph still shows the basic proportions in terms of saves between the three effects rather well.

The graph was correct enough for leading MH to a wrong "GM shines if the enemy has really ****ty saves" conclusion.
The graph is only correct from 2 to 16. The purple line should stay at 0.95 and fall below the yellow curve after 16. The yellow and blue curve shouldn't get lower left of 2.
A complete graph would go from -2 to 20, lower or higher base saving throws have the same success probability as -2 or 20.
The graph is still interesting if you know what is right and wrong but keep in mind that it only compares some probabilities, it doesn't show if there's a situation in the game where GM is useful.

I had a post typed up, but lost it.

So, to summarize:

- I didn't take saves down to -2, because opponents can't have a -2 save when targeted with Glitterdust. If the spell had been Chromatic Orb, I would have altered the saves accordingly.

- The chance of an opponent failing a save with a saving throw of 20 = 0.95. This is because if the caster makes a roll of 20, the opponent can still save.

- If an opponent has their saves pushed ABOVE 20 (eg. to 21), they will ALWAYS fail their saves, because the caster will always roll a number less than 20.

Are you sure about the 3rd statement ?
Does it also work the other way around ? (Could a character with a saving throw of -4 fail his save for example? )

kmonster:

Does it also work the other way around ? (Could a character with a saving throw of -4 fail his save for example? )
No.

If you have a base save of 1, you will ALWAYS save, unless your saves are modified (eg. via GM).

I always thought that, like with THAC0's, a natural 20 would always save you and a natural 1 would always fail. Regardless saving throws are never at or above 20, or at or below 1, so these situations would never arise in practice.

Do you have any proof for that your rule (with a bst 21 you can't roll a 20 to save, with bst 1 you can't roll a 1 to fail) does apply to BG2 ?
No offense meant, but it's hard to believe.
It doesn't fit to D&D rules, it doesn't fit to other IE games, it doesn't fit to how attacks are handled in BG2.
If you just need to get your saves low enough you'd just have to cast some saving throw boosters to become totally immune to mindflayer stun or send a party member with good saves and save boosting equipment killing beholders, he should be immune to their save-or-die spells.

[ August 14, 2007, 12:32: Message edited by: kmonster ]

Interesting:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm


Automatic Failures and Successes
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

You didn't answer my question.

It works this way, if you are attacked by spell or ability, which require save, you roll number on d20. When this number is higher (maybe it's equal or higher, I'm not sure) than your saving throw, you're OK.
And as was already written, 1 is fail and 20 is success no matter how good or bad your saving throws are.

No, I don't think this is correct. I think if saving throws are low-enough you cannot fail. Here is why:

Potions of Magic Shielding are described in their descriptions as allowing characters to 'automatically' pass all saving throws for the duration. But in fact the effect of the potion in the game is to grant a 20 point bonus to all saves. This would suggest that this bonus is equivalent to automatic success.

I've used these potions quite a lot and I've certainly never known a character to fail a save while under their effect.

Perhaps the designers chose not to implement the p&p rules due to technical limitations and the fact that no ingame characters have Saves lower than 1 or greater than 20.

I don't reckon we're gonna reach a consensus on the Greater Malison thing, perhaps it could be one of those optional spell, because after all it is not that great in unmodded SoA and it's efficacy relies heavily on what other spells you memorise and the individual style of play.

Time for level 5 methinks!!

Polymorph Self is useful for Bards. Turn into a slime and you're immune to magic, missile weapons and piercing and you can sing to your heart's content right in the midst of enemies with little to worry about. A singing slime: how cool is that?

What bugs me about Polymorph Self is that the slime form isn't immune to Mind Flayers' brain eating attack. Boy did I think I was a clever lad when I slithered my slimey bard into a room of Ilithid only to get killed in a round or two from the brain eating. Slimes have brains? Who knew.

Stoneskin excellent spell :)
Polymorph Self THE best way to fight a lich or any other spellcaster (the slime rules )
Improved Invisibility nice
Teleport Field keeps melle away from you

Confusion (Enc)
A save-or-else spell with a silly effect...skip this one.
Contagion (N) - scrolls of this spell are very rare. Multiple castings are cumulative, the effect is permanent(until a Cure Disease is cast), so an enemy can be killed simply by casting Contagion spells and decreasing his/her stats. I think it is a must-have spell when creating a mage of any sort, yet the spell is not good for a sorcerer. Ascension Yaga-Shura can be killed by Contagion spells.

Emotion (Enc)
a save-or-else spell. Not my favourite

Enchanted Weapon (Enc)
There are enough weapons. The spell is useless

Farsight (D)
This spell is great. It allows you to, say, guide your summons effectivelly and not be exposed to the dangers of the Wizard Eye(beholder, Umberhulk gaze and other gaze attacks)

Fireshield [Blue] (Evo/Alt)
The Protection from Cold spell grants 100% normal and magical fire resistance, despite of the spell description. So, the fireshield's cold resistance in addition to that of the prot from Cold spell simply allows your character to actually heal from cold-based attacks.
Otherwise, the spell is good, yet not my favourite, because if an enemy dies from the cold damage of the shield, there is a good chance that he will "freeze" and so items will be lost.
The Fireshield spells ignore an enemy's MR, so it is cool to cast a fireshield Blue in the midst of angry demons(while well protected by their attacks of course)

Fireshield [Red] (Evo/Alt)
Look above. This shield is more useful because there is no risk of item loss.

Greater Malison (Enc)
A very good spell. Yet, I always have my slots filled when I play a solo sorcerer and there is no place left for this spell. And, playing usually an Invoker, this spell is usually out of my reach.

Ice Storm (Evo)
The spell has its uses, but in general - in SoA there are very few uses of this spell.

Improved Invisibility (I)
A must-have for a solo sorcerer.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Abj)
A silly spell.

Minor Sequencer (Evo)
Every sequencer/contingency is a must-have.

Monster Summoning II (C)
-Like the first one, pretty bad.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alt)
-This spell is useless.

Polymorph Other (Alt)
A useless spell.

Polymorph Self (Alt)
-It's got a few uses, nothing spectacular though.

Remove Curse (Abj)
The Remove Curse spell has its uses, but not very much in SoA.

Secret Word (Abj)
A decent spell, yet not a pick for a solo sorcerer.

Spider Spawn (C)
The spiders are nothing special really. I'd say wait till 14 th level for Mordenkainen' s swords or 15th for Skeleton Warriors.

Spirit Armor (N)
-This is THE armor spell if you plan on getting any at all. Frees up a bracer slot.
Yet, I'd advise against picking this one with a solo sorcerer. A scroll is not very hard to obtain. Afterwards, with a Simulacrum, the spell can be cast on the protagonist whenever needed.

Stoneskin (Alt)
-You'd be a fool not to take this.

Teleport Field (Alt)
The spell is bugged. No saving throw despite the spell description. A must-have for a solo sorcerer. And otherwise - a must-have.

Wizard Eye (Alt)
-Yet, the spell has low duration, the eye can be detected and killed, or even the caster can be harmed through gaze attacks. I prefer the more useful and safer FarSight spell.

My picks as a solo-sorcerer:

StoneSkin - ImprInvisibility - Minor Sequencer - Telefield - FarSight

1 or 2 Stoneskin is a must, we all agree on this.

Improved Invisibility can be cast on another hero to improve his AC by 4, which is decisive in some tough battles. A must. 1 or 2.

Greater Malison is necessary for tough battles, but I find it cheesy to stack with Doom. Good combination with Slow or Chaos (total ST -8), Web (-6). Absolutely needed before you cast Finger of Death or such. Too bad it doesn't bypass MR, and it can be dispelled. At least 1.

Confusion has a longer duration than Chaos, so I would memorise 1.

I don't mind memorising Monster Summoning II and Spider Spawn, you can always need fodder.


Fireshield would be for a F/M. I don't see the use for Spirit Armour if you have Stoneskin.

In effect, I don't find Minor Sequencer that great. Remember you must target someone. When playing Aerie, it would cast Chromatic Orb BEFORE Doom!

Unfortunately, there are too few 4-lvl slots in order to waste some on spells like confusion or Monster Summoning II.

Fireshield is useful at some points, but not always.

Improved Invisibility is used mostly with SI:D in order to be untargeted by enemy spells.

All kind of Sequencer spells have 3 major bonuses.:

1. They give you 2 or 3 spells cast simultaneously
2. These 2 or 3 spells are EXTRA spells(not in your memorized spells)
3. The casting time of those spells is 0.

Aerie's Minor sequencer can hold far more useful spells than tne Doom+ChrOrb combo. I always use her Minor sequencers for Bless+Chant, because these 2 spells have an awfully long casting time

"Improved Invisibility is used mostly with SI:D in order to be untargeted by enemy spells."

Well, I don't know, maybe. But I mostly use it to improve the AC of a warrior by 4 for big physical challenges.

AC plays some minor role in the beginning/middle SOA. Later, almost each and every enemy can hit you through any AC. Also, the ImprInvisibility becomes useless as protection later, because many monsters have scripts that see through ImprovedInvisbility and other illusion spells, thus negating the AC and saving throw bonuses this spell grants.

And Spirit armor is a needed spell despite stoneskin, not only because of the great AC bonus and the fact that it leaves your bracer slot open for Gauntlets of Specialization(or Weapon Skill), but this spell also grants +3 vs saving throw vs spells.

Mandatory:
Stoneskin: The backbone of your defense. Never leave home without it!

Useful:
Farsight: Party players won't need this at all, but Farsight is very, very useful for solo spellcasters. Coordinate your summons and - even more important - projected image in battle, while you remain in complete safety. Don't even think about a no-reload game without it.
Improved Invisibility: Grants three effects: It lowers your armor class (not very important), improves your saving throws (good) and it hinders enemies to cast spells on you directly (priceless). Get the G3-Fixpack or Baldurdash, otherwise the first two effects won't be provided. Only pass up this spell if you use Mislead or Mass Invisibility instead.
Minor Sequencer: It has been said before, but I will say it again: All sequencers and contigencies are powerful.
Spider Spawn: The spiders are really useful for a solo mage, even for a sorcerer. Sure, you will get better summons when you reach level 15, but the Spider Spawn/Web-combo will be very potent in major parts of SoA. Besides, the alternatives offered by this spell level are pretty pathetic.

Semi-useful:
Emotion - Hopelessness: Tolerable group disabling spell, decent effect and party-friendly. Personally, I'd rather use Slow, but memorize one or two if you like save-or-else spells.
Fireshield (Red): You get 50% fire resistance, while enemies suffer for attacking you. The damage isn't great, but bypasses magic resistance. Okay for a Fighter/Mage or Blade, but pure spellcasters do not want to have close contact to the enemy.
Greater Malison: The overrated golden calf of spell level 4... GM claims to tip the scales in your favor when using save-or-else effects - but it's a bluff package: Depending on the exact saving throws of your enemies it can worsen or better your odds a bit (compared to casting the save-or-else spell twice). But GM has a function as substitute for such spells of higher level than 4 (Chaos, Finger of Death for example). If you like to use these a lot, think about GM, otherwise skip. Has further uses when most of the fighters in your party use weapons with save-or-else effect (Silver Sword, Celestial Fury, Ixil's Spike, Darts of Stunning and so on).
Polymorph Self: None of the forms is a very strong fighter, but the slime form with its 100% magic resistance can be useful now and then. And keep in mind that a projected image is able to attack when polymorphed.
Spirit Armor: Decent choice for a Fighter/Mage, but (fixed) Improved Invisibility is much better. But you can use both if you like.
Secret Word: Cheap and easy way to get rid of most spell protections. But more often than not area damage seems more effective.
Teleport Field: TF significantly reduces the probability that enemies will be able to hit you in melee - but is by no means a 4-round-guarantee that you'll remain unharmed. No saving throw, ignores magic resistance. Still a bit too random for my taste, but quite powerful when you have a party with a lot of archers.

Avoid like the plague:
Confusion: Area disabling with dubious effect. The promised -2-saving throw penalty isn't even implemented as far as I know, so Emotion - Hopelessness is strictly better. Get the G3-fixpack if you want to use this spell, but I'd rather go for Chaos instead.
Contagion: Contagion combines a rather lame effect with the unpleasentness of a touch spell. Its stat drain may have a use if you have absurd mods installed with enemies who are pretty much immune against anything else.
Enchanted Weapon: The game offers a plethora of stronger weapons.
Fireshield (Blue): The good news: Resistance to cold is less common, so the enemies will take more damage on average. The bad news: Can destroy loot and the provided cold resistance is pretty worthless. Stick to the red one if you like the fireshields.
Ice Storm: Laughable damage, short duration.
Minor Cube of Invulnerability: Useful in BG1 and the very beginning of SoA, but later enemy mages laugh about this.
Monster Summoning II: Spider Spawn is much better.
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere: Save-or-else spell without penalty or really devastating effect. Interesting for some strange stunts, but nothing to write home about.
Polymorph Other: More save-or-else madness... Go for Emotion - Hopelessness instead if you really like to take chances.
Remove Curse: How often do you get cursed? Not at all? I thought so.
Wizard Eye: Let's compare WE to Farsight. The WE is mobile, but can be killed and dispelled. Furthermore it has a shorter duration and makes the caster vulnerable to gaze attacks. Conclusion: Farsight is always reliable, Wizard Eye isn't.


Solo Sorcerer picks: Stoneskin - Spider Spawn - Minor Sequencer - Farsight - Polymorph Self (If you choose Mislead and/or Mass Invisibility later, that is. If you don't, pick Improved Invisibility after Spider Spawn and forget about Polymorph Self.)

Party Sorcerer picks: Stoneskin - Improved Invisibility - Minor Sequencer - Teleport Field - Greater Malison