Righto, I have a problem. I need a decent thief. Nalia, as I have said, is hopeless, and fits in poorly with my group. She's a lousy thief, a mediocre mage, and a self-righteous git that makes me want to... Take my medication. Anywho, Problem is that even if I replace her for Yoshi, then I will have problems because he gets himself killed and Imoen isn't that much of a thief either. Should I just use Shadowkeeper to undual-class Imoen, or should I just do the same to Nalia? Or should I just kill Nalia, loot her body, and leave it rotting in the Underdark when I get there?

What do you need a thief for? Finding and disarming traps, unlocking doors, backstabbing, and picking pockets. I just run my main character as an assassin for the extra backstab and dont take any of your listed thiefs with me. Make sure he is good at all of the things you need a thief for, make him proficeint in shortbow, and keep him in the middle of the party.
I do this because I agree with you, the characters that you mentioned are all poor thiefs.

None of that helps since you are already in a game. Yoshi is probably your best choice, give him a bow, some magic arrows, lower his AC, and keep him in the back. Good Luck. Oh yea, dump the body in the underdark.....Good idea.

edited for a spelling error.

[ February 08, 2003, 03:31: Message edited by: Shadow Steele ]

Hi guys...don't forget about Jan Jansen!!! He's a good thief and a good mage!! If his abilities aren't so good to you just make sure to always carry with him some Potions of Master Thievery Skills!!!

I've said it before -- Jan is the man to take for thieving. Nalia isn't that mediocre a mage if you just have her learn better spells -- then she's as good as any other, won't give you lip like Edwin, and can be better in combat once her spells run dry because she has a bow.

Going back to Jan, he's funnier, his Illusionist status (extra spell) compensates for his dual classed status, his use of good crossbows and his ever improving thief's THAC0 makes him a battle asset, and you can get him relatively early (as opposed to Edwin, who you have to fight several tough fights (for a less experienced player)) or as opposed to Imoen (for a slightly more effective thief / mage dual class) but she's hooped on the XP side of things because you have to wait until chapter 3 to get her back. Jan is the man!

But Nalia is just IRRITATING. Edwin is much less so, because he'll at least redeem himself in combat. On the subject of Imoen, I'd like to know why I can't make her a half elf, then have her multiclass mage-thief? It seems as though it should work...
And Jan doesn't stop talking. I tried him once, and lasted 3 dialogues before kicking him out.

[ February 09, 2003, 07:09: Message edited by: Koveras ]

I guess that using Shadowkeeper or something similar to alter Imoen would be cool -- no reason you couldn't do that. I never really noticed Nalia -- after her quest she doesn't say any more than anyone else. Jan, you're right, he talks a lot, but I still like him.

Take Jan Jansen or Yoshimo.But Jansen is more funny,has good thieving kills and can cast backup spells and combined with your good mage,can do really good things.
ps.I always improve thieving skills of Imoen with Shadowkeeper. :p

You are doing injustice to Nalia here...

If you wanted to use her as a thief, then you probably are not very smart... Even if she is dual-classed, I always consider her as a pure mage. And she is the best possible mage choice for a good-aligned party, period.

I actually went through the whole chapter 2 with her as only thief and it was uhhh... I had to memorize Knock and use it a lot and Jaheira was busy casting Find Traps as well... still I had to take a lot of damage from non-disarmed traps...

However, if you do not expect her to be a prolific thief, you'll have a lot less reasons to be irritated with her...

i always have nalia in my party, mostly because i will get so pissed at edwin that ill kill him myself, and she's alot more useful in battle then edwin is.
all too often ive saved my party from being wiped out by a mage simply because she shot the mage before he could get his spell off, and as a mage she is very potent, the lack of level 9 spells because of her intelligence is one of her few downfalls.
as a thief, well, the only thing i use thieves for is finding traps and picking locks, and since she can learn knock, she's got both of them licked.
and i actually like her righteous attitude, since i usually play a paladin who is also righteous

[ February 10, 2003, 10:02: Message edited by: Shoshino ]

Nalia is only as good as you make her. That's why they invented potions of perception, potions of mastery thievery and the ring of lock picks.

Nalia has always been in my party (well, except for my all guy party) and I find her to be better than Jan or Imoen in ranged fighting. Jan couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, regardless of what crossbow I bought him, and all I ever heard from Imoen was "Ah, heck". Arm Nalia with the Tuigan Bow +1 (and later w/ the Bow of Gesen) and she is good to go. Coupled with her spellcasting and she is a formidable force.

Well, on the thieves mentioned.

Nalia: As someone else mentioned, you don't really ever take her as a thief, she's good for back up thief, but primarily you take her for mage spells

Yoshi: He is a good short term solution, undoubtedly. I've almost done all of the quests before I finish chapter 3, apart from the Mazzy/Gorf, Mind flayers in the temple district, the twsted rune, and the lich quest. he's about level 13 or 14 or something at the moment, a lot of his thieving skills I've got to 100 so he is far from useless, and about the only two thieving skills I haven't worked on for him are det illusions and pick pocket. I have put some into pick pocket, but he uses gloves of pick pocketing or potions of master thievery if he can't unlock something.

Jan: Is an extremely capable thief. I've had him in the past for a time, but I take him solely depending on who my protagonist is, and what the break up is of the rest of the party, and base his weapons and mage and thief skills on that.

Imoen: Not a good thief ? I'd really have to disagree on this for a few reasons:
1) Armor and Hide in Shadows/Move Silently: Give her the shadow dragon armor or the armor from doing the umar hills quest or even the maevar armor, and she's absolutely set for armor, or if you really need to, give her the elven armor from chapter 6(?) which you get off the black dragon I think, or if you have the two shopkeepers installed from BG2:SoA Collectors Edition, give her the Robe of Vecna. But either chainmail or Robe, if you need her thieving skills mainly hide in shadows and mvoe silently, you put one of the 3 thieving armors on;
2) Pick Pockets/Open Locks: Gloves of pickpocketing fix most of these things;
3) Detect Illusions: Why bother ? That's what true sight and detect illusion spells are for;
4) Set traps: Well, that is where she falls down big time, pity, but if you have the right party, you don't need traps, they're a nice bonus though, granted;
5) Find traps and disarming traps: Well, this along with hide in shadows, is where Imoen has always excelled in, she can disable most traps out there anyway, but certainly find them;
6) If her thieving skills still aren't high enough, potions of Master Thievery, and Insight, I believe will fix her problem there. I could be wrong about insight, but there is another potion outside MT that increases thieving skills; and
7) Final point: If you download one of Baldurdash's patches or whatever mod has his patches installed. BG2ToBFixpack112 to be precise. One of the changes in that is that they realised due to some oversight that black Isle/Interplay, didn't give Imoen her full compliment of thieving skills when they dual classed her, they missed out a full level of thieving points, ie 25 thieving points I think it is. They increased her pick locks, her find traps, and her pick pockets.

Her thieving skills with the fixpack become:
Pick Locks: 100%
Find Traps: 95%
Pick Pockets: 35%
Move Silently: 30%
Hide In Shadows: 25%
Detect Illusion: 0%
Set Traps: 5%
Add Gloves of pickpocketing, thieving armors, that changes to:
Pick Locks: 100%
Find Traps: 95%
Pick Pockets: 35% + 20%
Move Silently: 30% } + 20% to one of them, I'm
Hide In Shadows: 25% } not sure which.
Detect Illusion: 0%
Set Traps: 5%
Then of course add potions of MT and Insight, and you have a thief dual classed to a mage as a very useful thief.

To wrap up:
As for SoA, what thieving skills are used the most above all else, in no particular order:
-Find Traps;
-Disable Traps;
-Open Locks.

If you really plan on taking Imoen back, she is well and truly more than capable. Give her the Gesen Bow or the bow from the shop at Trademeet that doesn't require arrows and I think you're pretty well set for ranged attacks from her, and if you need her in melee or for backstabbing, you make sure she has the good thieving armors on. I believe she had a plus in a short sword ? You could quite simply have her backstab with the Kundane short sword which has speed factor 0, if you haven't sold it.

So as for thieves in general. Unless you go thief yourself. You actually have two good thieves you could take through the whole of SoA pretty much with you:
1) Jan;
2) Imoen then Yoshimo then Imoen. (True Yoshi will have better thieving skills than Imoen)

True Jan would have better thieving skills than Imoen, but it depends what your party make up is, alignment, weapon usage, etc etc etc.

I think I'd definitely always take Jan if there was a crossbow out there like the Gesen Short Bow, but then you could always give Jan short bow ability. Now there is a thought :cool:

People posting in this forum don't have ToB, so change/remove the mention of that ToB fixpack.

Taluntain, I am fully aware people in this forum may not have ToB, BUT I was simply pointing out where if people wanted a fix for what thieving skills Imoen should have, they should go and have a look around the Baldurdash site, and I believe there would be an appropriate fixpack for SoA regarding her thieving skills in some shape or form, which is compatible with just SoA.

I was simply giving people a pointer and a help as to where to look. I don't believe people should be crucified by administrators and moderators, when they're just trying to help :sosad:

Hum. For some reason, changing Imoen's class does work, although changing her race to make it a multiclass does not. It always reverts back to human, and I'm stuck where I was before. Although a thief isn't INCREDIBLY neccesary, I still try to include one wherever possible. Just good sense. Any thoughts on the Imoen race/Class situation?

Who's being crucified? I just told you to go check if the SoA fixpack contained the same fix, and change this in your post. Wouldn't it be easier to do that than complain here without any good reason?

Just as a final follow up to a previous post I made in this thread.

There is a fix pack specifically for BG2:SoA. I mentioned previously there was a fix pack for ToB, fixing Imoens thieving skills.

But for you straight SoA people, try going to:

http://www.baldurdash.org/fixes.html

You could just download the single fix pack for Imoen, or download the whole fix pack, personally I'd grab the whole thing.

Anyway, Imoens thieving skills in this fixpack should be the same as the ToB fixpack i mentioned.

I hope that helps.

Jan couldn't hit the broadside of a barn"? Are you kidding? I've always found him to be fairly accurate. Based on the fact that his THAC0 as a thief is always improving, he should have a better base THACO than Nalia, as a thief's THAC0 is superior to that of a mage. I can't remember his DEX score, but that is easily remedied by giving him the appropriate gauntlets to raise it to 18 when you're in a fight (you can put his techno gloves back on for his thieving activities). Jan is the only NPC who can a) stay with you for the whole game (aside from his little quest, that is) and b) whose thieving skills will improve throughout the game. I can't think of a better character to take along -- his neutral alignment means he can fit in with any mix of party -- he'll never leave unless, theoretically, your rep drops below 3 or so, and if that happens, you've got more problems than Jan leaving. (BTW, I've never seen him leave -- has anyone else dropped their rep low enough to check?)

[ February 21, 2003, 17:36: Message edited by: Depaara ]

Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a crossbow, dagger or staff. No matter what weapon I gave him, or how enchanted it was, he just couldn't cut it. It would be easier for me to count how many times, in any given encounter, he actually hit something than the number of times he missed (which many were critical misses). Now when he is in my party, I use him solely for thieving. Occasionally I'll have him fire off a spell but for the most part he scouts ahead, sets/disarms traps and picks locks.

That's really weird, Spelladonna -- it doesn't make mathematical sense. Has anyone else had similar problems with Jan? Is Spelladonna just really unlucky when it comes to turnip boy, or am I just lucky regarding the guy? Weigh in, folks, and enlighten me!

Whether Jan is faring well in combat depends on how you're using him. What weapons does he have? What level is he? Who are you fighting against? If the answers to these questions are different, then obviously the cirucmstances are different, and Jan may be a good or bad NPC depending on them.

I think Jan is a fairly good shot with his crossbow, and his skulls are neat. But I prefer him to be more of a utility character, as well as backup for spells. Perhaps if you're having Jan use the right spells, like Slow, Strength, etc., how he fares may improve.

And I'm pretty sure Jan leaves at Reputation 3 or below.

I once had jan with his own crossbow, bolts o' biting and had four shots four misses with 3*critical and it does really seem to happen more with Jan than with anyone else.

I say keep.

Come on, I even manage to use Jan Jansen to backstab some foes and I equipped him with a +3 crossbow I think, didn't remember him missing many times. Even if his ranged attack don't suit you, just let him memorise only powerful spells that you know how to use and he will be very power. Personally, I find Jan Jansen to be a muti-armed combatant; can backstab, shot bolts or cast spells. The idea of putting a slot in short bow is a good one I think. Gsen bow for my archer and the bow from trademeet for Jan Jansen = muti-mini-magic missiles.

There are only two good long-term thieves in the game - Imoen and Jan Jansen.

Imoen will do if you like keeping items that can increases her thieving skills around (i.e., rings, potions, etc.). Just don't rely on her making backstabs, or laying traps. Hide in the shadows and move silently can be replaced with invisibility. Cloak of non-detection = Spell Immunity:Divination.

Jan is everything you could ever hope for in terms of thieving abilities - but it stops there, period.

Race-changing doesn't affect multi-classing and dual-classing. A PC who was originally mutli-class elf changed to a human will still be a multi-class... human.

As for the arguement on somebody not hitting something, remember that this game is based a great deal on randomness... I once had the game when it was Minsc who couldn't hit the broad side of the barn. I almost dropped my eyes on the first 3 rows of missed critical hits that the level 15 ranger failed on a -goblin-. Who hits who depends purely on game math + a good touch of chaos and pandemonium. :)

Ditto. Choose Imoen. SK´ing her thief skills could be a good idea, if you just don´t add any extra points. After all, you could choose in BG1 where to allocate the points.

Hopefully someone makes a mod that allows to decide in the beginning of the game the abilities of BG1 NPC´s... (Imoen, Minsc)

Btw, Koveras, why do you want to make Imoen an half-elf?

As I said no matter what I did with/for Jan or what I gave him, he was just useless with a weapon. I understand it's all random, but geez no one is that unlucky. When I do have him in my party, which is rare, he is my main thief and back-up mage. And his lines are funny.

Nalia, however, will continue to be in all my parties regardless of whether I use her for ranged fighting, spell casting, thieving, or any combination of the three.