Me question is:
How the abilities like Hide In Shadows, Trap Setting and Detect Illusion are counted when ye start the game? Do those depend on wisdom?
For wisdom is what i usually set as lowest for me thief, and now i start suspecting that me tactic is all wrong...

No. The bonus you recieve in your thieving attributes is racial. Like if you're a halfling you'll have better stats for everything, if you're an elf, better pick-pocketing and worse opening locks...etc.

THIEVES RULE!

Thieving abilities are basically influenced by race and dexterity + the choice of your armor + some speacial abilities of some items you use (rings/ shadow armor/ gloves ... ).

1. At lvl-1 every thief starts with the basic setting pickpockte 15%/ open locks 10%/ disarm traps 5%/ move silent 10%/ hide in shadows 5% - the new skills set traps and detect illusion aren´t included in my table :( - if anyone could supply them ...

At lvl-1 yo get 30 points to distribute on your skills, after that only 20 points per level. The assassin and bountyhunter kits just have 15 points to distribute on their thieving skills.

2. Dexterity (I´ll skip the penalties for beeing clumsy handed ... and start at dex-16 with the first bonus):

dex-16: open locks +5
dex-17: pickpockets +5/ open locks +10/ move silent & hide in shadows +5
dex-18: pickpockets +10/ open locks +15/ disarm traps +5/ move silent & hide in shadows +10
dex-19: pickpockets +15/ open locks +20/ disarm traps +10/ move silent & hide in shadows +15
dex-20: no info but probably better - the is a potion giving you +3 int/ +3 dex ...

3. Race boni for thieving abilities:

Human & Hald Orc: no boni
Dwarf: open locks +10/ disarm traps +15
Halfling: pickpockets +5/ open locks +5/ disarm traps +5/ move silent +10/ hide in shadows +15
Gnome: open locks +5/ disarm traps +10/ move silent & hide in shadows +5
Elf: pickpockets +5/ open locks +5/ move silent +5/ hide in shadows +10
Halfelf: pickpockets +10/ hide in shadows +5

IMO the halfling and elf races are best suited for thievery for their race boni and for they can have 19 dex.

4. Armor mali on thieving abilities:

nor armor: pick pockets +5/ move silent +10/ hide in shadows +5
elven chain: pick pockets -20/ open locks -5/ disarm traps -5/ move silent hide in shadows -10
leather armor: pick pockets -30/ open locks -10/ disarm traps -10/ move silent hide in shadows -20

Bard suffer a -25 malus on pickpocket when wearing a chainmail (regular)

PS: find and disarm traps are one skill - so I summed it up

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited April 24, 2001).]

Thieving abilities absolutely depend on dexterity, wisdom has no effect on them.
Wisdom is important when resisting charm and confusion spells and it is vital for the priests only.

Wisdom is important for the reasons listed above. Also for a Wisdom of 15+ you get bonuses to lore upon level up. Mages and thieves receive a basic +3 to lore (bards receive +10) upon levelling up. With a wisdom of 15 your thief will receive +6 to lore every level.

Dexterity modifiers above 19 accrue significant bonuses for thief skills.

Dexterity of 20 =
+20 to pick pockets
+25 to open locks
+15 to detect traps.
+18 to move silently/hide in shadows.

Dexterity of 21 =
+5 to each of the above bar stealth which receives a +2.

It is possible to get your thief to a 20 Dexterity without cheating by using an Elf and taking him through BG1, TotSC and **DSotSC picking up all statistic enhancing tomes along the way. :)

**
DSotSC is an unofficial add on with new areas, creatures etc.

[This message has been edited by Big Bad Bert (edited April 24, 2001).]

No, i mean the abilities that ye got fixed at the beginning, not the ones ye can upgrade
if i have a human char, and i get HIS (hide in shadows) of 15 in the beginning and i have no bonuses etc. so how does yoshimo has 50 in HIS? he is human and of same level, or is it just same thing that minsc-ranger has enrage?

I guess it´s just how you distribute your thieving abilities, you have to compare to total sum of ability points. Just referring to be at same level is useless for it doesn´t give Information about a) your dex, (b) your level, (c) your kit and (d) armor.

Given you´re a plain lvl-10 thief with dex-18, human, you´ll have a total of 210 points [As a bountyhunter (just like an assassin) Yoshi just has 165 points to distribute] to distribute on your lvl-1 base values of:

Basic ability + dex-bonus -> base value

pickpockets 15% + 10% -> 25%
open locks 10% + 15% -> 25%
disarm trraps 5% + 5% -> 10%
move silent 10 % + 10% -> 20%
hide in shadows 5 % + 10% -> 15%
detect illusions 0%
set traps (??) 10 % + 10% (??) -> 20% ??)

Calculating your thieving abilities and comparing the sum with Yoshi´s, you´ll most probably find out that they are just distributed different ;)

I agree with Ragusa...THIEVES RULE.

Potion of perception has been bandied about as giving a +3 to dex & +3 to int'...this is wrong, it's actually the potion of mind focusing.

Thief Potions -

Potion of Mind Focusing = +3 Dex & +3 Int for 12 hours.

Potion of Agility = Dex set to 18 for 15 turns.

Potion of Master Thievery = +40% pick pockets, +40% Lock picking for 3 hours.

Potion of Perception = +20% lock picking, +20% Find/Remove Traps, +20% Pick Pockets, +20% Hide in Shadows for 6 hours.

Potion of Power = Hide in Shadows +20% (base only), Pick Pockets +20% (base only), Pick Locks +20% (base only), Find/Remove traps +20% (base only) Hit Points +20% (base only) THACO set to 80% of current base for 4 turns.

Not all the thieves RULE!

I don't like the swashbuckler personally, because of the lack of the backstab mutliplier, which is the thieves's most dangerous combat ability.

Instead, I like the assasin very mutch. His poisoning the weapon ability is a blast. It can kill anything with a successful strike.

Agreed, I personally don't like any kits.
BOG STANDARD THIEVES RULE. :D

Poisoning is fine but I just backstabbed Chremy (Brynlaw) for 162 points with my guy and C.Fury.

[This message has been edited by Big Bad Bert (edited April 25, 2001).]

Swashbuckler be a great char, its AC could get extremely slow with no problemo, it be good fer fighting and can thief 'swell

I've thought Hide in shadows and set traps abilities DO NOT CHANGE

Yep, the swashbuckler is a nice kit, tough I usually prefer the standard thieves for their backstabbing ability. However, the lack of backstabbing ability can be partly overcome with the use of potions of invisibility.

IMHO a cool char would be an elven mc swashbuckler-mage. Though having less hitpoints he´d be a better fighter than an mc fighter-mage with advantage of having thieving abilities (yes, and restricted mage spells due to low mage level). But a great allround char - just as useful as Arie as a mc cleric-mage

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited April 26, 2001).]

Incidentally Bert, in an above post you mentioned that a thief with 15 wis would get +6 lore per level. This is incorrect. The +3 wis bonus to lore is a one time bonus and has nothing to do with level of experience.

Ragusa wrote:
... elven mc swashbuckler-mage. Though having less hitpoints he´d be a better fighter than an mc fighter-mage...

How do you come to that surprising conclusion?
Note: You can't be swashbuckler/mage as an elf.

* Example *
Just to make it equal for both...
Str-19, Dex-19, Con-17, Int-18, Wis-18, Cha-18
Equipment: Short Bow, Short Sword, Arrows.

Thief-16/Mage-13
- Short Bow
THAC0: 9
Attacks/round: 2
- Short Sword
THAC0: 9
Attacks/round: 1
Max HP: 79

Fighter-13/Mage-13
- Short Bow
THAC0: 3
Attacks/round: 3.5
- Short Sword
THAC0: 3
Attacks/round: 2.5
- Max HP: 99

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited May 15, 2001).]

The mc swashbuckler-mage is *hypothetical* (You may have overread "IMHO a cool char would be...") combo. Actually no race at all can be this multiclass combo for it isn´t implemented in BG-2.

I remembered to have read that a swashbuckler´s THACO levels up like a fighter´s. This assumption was wrong; it actually is like that:

Boni:
- +1 to AC.
- Another +1 to AC for every 5 levels.
- +1 to hit and damage every 5 levels.
-May specialize in any weapon that a thief can use
- May place three stars in two-weapon fighting style proficiency

My idea was: While having better fighting abilities than an mc mage-thief he´d come close to an mc fighter-mage with the benefit of unrestricted thieving abilities. It would be IMHO (considering the x-cap) a superior alternative in playing options to the mc fighter-mage-thief for he could reach highter levels that way.

btw: have you considered the +3 (for dex-19) THACO-bonus when calculating the ranged weapon values? I just wonder because the bow-THACO is the same as the shortsword THACO in both samples. :confused:

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited May 15, 2001).]

What does IMHO mean?

[Why would you resurrect a 2 year old topic by asking an unrelated question? - BTA]

[ June 30, 2003, 19:11: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

In My Humble Opinion
I think :D