I have a Ranger who i dual wield with. i have *** (3) in Dual Wield. On of his swords is better then the other. Which hand should i put the better sword?

well the offhand weapon swings only once per round. So I'd say if the better weapon deals a significant more amount of damage, use it on your primary hand, so your max damage per round will have increased. (at high levels thaco doesn't matter much anyways)

Weapons that give you more attacks, though, like Belm, are very good in the off-hand.

Indeed. Normally you can better put the best weapon in the main hand. At the other side, a better weapon that also has a lower Thaco in the Off Hand make that the main hand and off hand are more equal, so your Thaco with the Off Hand weapons is just as low as with the main hand. Crom Faeyr is also a great Off Hand weapon for it sets your strength to 25, also for the main hand.

I knew that some people would recomment to use crom faeyr in the off-hand :shame: :nolike: You should ignore them for they are ignorant powergamers of worst kind :flaming: :mad:

I would choose my off hand weapon to be of smaller size but similar kind as my first hand weapon. So if you use a katana a scimitar in the off hand would just be fine (I agree, Belm is excellent), if you use a longsword first hand a shortsword ould be great, having a shortsword first hand, I'd choose a dagger off-hand and so on ...
I agree to Headbanger that the weapon with the best THACO should be in the first hand.

This is all just MHO and I have a strong antipathy against the use of crom and c'fury dualwielded for both weapons are of totally different kind and IMHO barely compatible :nono: :flaming:

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 10, 2001).]

I like to use two weapons with the same basic attack style and a similar look. I've used Crom Faeyr in tandem with a mace before, but not with a slashing or piercing weapon.

My one exception has been letting Jaheira dual-wield a club and a scimitar. This combination looks really cool to me, and I just like the idea of this *****y druid with a stick in one hand and a sickle in the other. (-:

Do you have some insight in weaponry Ragusa, or am I misunderstanding you? When you say a bludgeon and a slashing weapons aren't compatible for dual-wield what do you mean? I can't see anything wrong in wielding a hammer and katana. Or a club and a scimitar for that matter. If a fighter is trained in both weaponclasses why shouldn't he? Those rules you set up are for PnP rangers. This is CRPG. This is bioware. admit it. :)

You also say that Crom feyer in left hand is a powergaming tool. Well I want you to make a flat out statement where you say which weapons are powergaming tools and which are great weapons, or combinations of them used in smart and clever dual-wield ways. I am getting tired of ppl stating that legal macical weapons and items are for "ignorant powergamers of the worst kind". perhaps powergamers in the sense that they evolve their character, but doing it legally. But they are certainly NOT ignorant, and certainly NOT of the worst kind. You are usually a sensible guy. Are you having a bad day? :)


Back to toppic. I always use weapons with extra attacks per round in my off hand. Else I use the best of the weapons in my main hand since it has more attacks per round. But what good is dual wielding if you don't hit with the off hand, you might ask? But heck! As long as I have the best possible Thac0 in my main hand I am more likely to hit the enemy once, instead of zero times, which could happen if I tried to equal the Thac0 of the two hands.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 10, 2001).]

Fascinating how someone whose opinion is different is considered "ignorant". My understanding of the word ignorant is that it implies a lack of education.

Ragusa, could you please educate us on why using different types of weapons is somehow incorrect? Or is this just your opinion/style?

I use the best weapon in the main hand, second best in the off hand. While using different weapon types may be ignorant (in Ragusas words), not using your best weapons is foolish.

As much as I don't like being called ignorant, I dislike being ignorant even more. I look forward to you guiding me from ignorance.

[This message has been edited by Jack Funk (edited October 10, 2001).]

I think you have to take level into account here too, as well as the AC of the monster you're walloping.

If you can't hit consistently with the weaker weapon in your off hand, then put the stronger one there (stronger meaning with the largest "to hit" bonus). Otherwise, it makes more sense to put it in your main hand.

Ah, what a shame I had to edit away the :p ;) smileyes finally ... cheer up :grin:

"ignorant powergamers of worst kind", eh ? Well, I am a powergamer myself but I impose myself some restrictions to keep my gaming interesting. I don't need these enormous THACO & damage boni and I don't need instant kill on trolls and golems.

If you like to use crom - do it. I think it is foolish. If you want to dualwield crom with C'Fury I'd say it's disgusting. These are my personal opinions. That's why I wrote "I would/ IMO/ IMHO". I'm not going to teach you anything Jack Funk :rolleyes:

For me using crom is a sighn of bad taste. For deeper insight in my reasons (yes, I have some) to dislike crom, check the link below:
http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003377.html (my reply is somewhere in the middle)

Ragusa, having reread your post, I realized that you were specifically referring to people using Crom in the off hand. I have never used Crom (I find the individual components too useful). However, I still don't see why this is an indication of ignorance.

My ignorance seems to result in being unable to read posts correctly. ;)

The better weapon looks better in my good hand.:grin: and i swing it more times so im going to put The better weapon in my main hand. My off hand weapon will just sink even more. :shame:

Edit: Just some spelling lol :roll: :rolling:


[This message has been edited by Thalantyr (edited October 10, 2001).]

Ragusa, look at my standard accessoires:

Scimitar +5, Defender in Main Hand
Crom Faeyr in Off-Hand

Celestial Fury? What's that? Butter knife???

Well hell, why not the killsword in your main hand and Blackrazor in your off at that point?

You know you can't have Drizzt's Defender +5 as your primary weapon without cheating, sheesh!

Yep Tjekanefir. This topic is somewhat getting off hand :sosad:

Hey! Don't Miss with my Topic! Me and alot of people have this question, and want it to be answered. BTW what does it mean to be a power gamer?

Your question was answered very clearly and concisely by Invoker when you first asked it, Thalantyr. You get more swings with your good hand, so you want to put the weapon that causes more damage/good effects there.

[This message has been edited by tjekanefir (edited October 10, 2001).]

I still haven't gotten my list of which LEGAL (keyword) weapons are sleasy. And where you draw the line Ragusa, or anyone else for that matter. :p

I saw the word Powergamer alot lately.
What does it mean?

It's a general gaming term for someone whose primary goal in a game is to make their character more and more powerful, or for a game generally tailored towards such players. It's not in and of itself a bad term, though a powergamer in a finesse, role-playing, or entertainment oriented group is often not appreciated by the other players.

In a CRPG, I can't see as it matters much since you're primarily playing against the computer--even in a multiplayer game, your challenges are pretty much set before you ever start. But people on the boards do still tend to apply it to anyone who concentrates on building the most powerful possible character.

I'm grateful for this info. Being an avid Drizzt & Artemis fan, I really, really want my character to dual-wield. She has a katana in her main hand and a long sord +1 in her off hand.

I'd like to also throw in my $.02 on power playing... I cheat, but I do not powerplay. I cheat because I want the game to be more interesting, in a way. Like the infamous Great Gonzo...

Ara
("We-ee are homicidal chicken f*cking maniacs..." The theme song of the Initiative :)

Cheating and powergaming aren't connected. I guess there are some cheaters in any gaming camp, but powergamers are known, not for cheating, but for exploiting every conceivable legal loophole, always playing the strongest possible class and race, and above all else pursuing ways to raise their characters' stats and acquire more and more powerful EQ. If they cheated, they'd never admit it to other powergamers, but they'd talk about exploits and loopholes with them all day and all night.

The derisive term is "munchkin," and that was technically properly applied only to powergamers who managed to use a weak-willed DM to acquire an item or magical ability that was much too overpowered and then went around using it in tournaments. But people still use it to mean any badly overpowered character or item or the people who like to use them.

This lesson in gaming history brought to you by Tjekanefir. (-:

Powergaming, uh - now we have the discussion again :(

Well, my definition of powergaming is a wee bit different: When I have a character in BG-2 I want to have a good and strong char.

So I like my char to have a good punch - this does not nessesarily mean I play a half-orc (I actually never played one). A str-17 halfling is ok for me since I know that there are potions and girdles and spells around to increase my str when I need it. I dislike to reload a lot and prefer to have a solid melee ability, therefor I prefer a fighter-thief to a pure thief.

I prefer single weapon style for the increased chance of a critical hit. I dislike shields.

I prefer dwarfs and especially halflings to the other races for their shortness and their racial boni and limitations. Halflings are my race of choice for thieves for their exceptional boni.

Sometimes I roll quite a while to get my characters stat *right* (musts: high str/ hight dex/ high con/ high wis) for hitpoints, AC, load & THACO and saving throws). Anyway, I try to keep chr and int above 10. They are half-god heroes finally .... ;)

Anyway: I am happy with a char with str-19 and one weapon ... crom (giving str-25 in the off hand plus instant kill) & C'Fury (dealing out substantial damage + special effects) is just overkill. I like to backstabb but I use daggers (and no katanas) for it: I can kill an enemy instantly with 65 damage instead of 110 ( :mommy: I'd have to hit twice in worst case :aww: :p ) - so why should I need C'Fury for it ?

Actually tjekanefir, I think your explanation is a little bit general.

And Nobleman: Which weapons you dualwield IMO is just a question of taste ... if you don't have it - I can't (and I won't) help you :D :p

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 11, 2001).]

Just explaining where the term originally came from, Ragusa, and what it means. How you want to use it now is up to you (though I can't imagine how the word could have mutated enough that someone with a 17-STR halfling warrior would consider himself one--but like I said, "powergamer" and "roleplayer" are a little bit odd concpets in a computer game anyway, where it's not exactly like the GM is adapting anything to anyone's style of play).

Hmm, see:
An example: I created my halfling cavalier for two reasons - I was sick of getting held & stunned with my dc fighter-thief and I wanted to play a real straigh-on melee char for a change.

Pure fighters kinda bored me, but the pally class attracted me. Additionally I knew about the paladin's saving throw-bonus. Good Mazzy always was an excellent char with great saving throws and for she always wanted to be a pally, I decided to make her dream come true:
I created my halfling pally, based on a human pally I had played through BG-1 before (excellent stats due to a good roll & the tomes from BG-1 ToSC; total 106 points or so; about 20 min of re-rolling - a good investment).

When changing race & avatar I corrected them a bit to match the halfling race: Str-19 (18/43 before the tome) became 18/0 and I added the free point on int. I didn't want to use carsomyr and restricted my char to one-handed weapon style (no shield) and the usual one handed melee weapons - no disadvantage considering Namarra, FOTA and C'Fury. Soon he got the girdle of hillgiant strength and evil had found an terrible enemy. I chose fighter-1 script to match the cvalier kit.

This char was finally able to do a mindflayer lair *solo* in straight melee. This *is* powergaming (not only a heroic deed). Saving throws were so low that after lvl-14 (when entering underdark) he always resisted any spell or psi attack - he only had to care for int-drain but that was primarily a question of AC.

Maybe I am a roleplaying powergamer ;) I roleplay my chars but I want them to be as strong as possible.

:D Well, later I found out that a halfling or dwarven fighter is just as good in terms of saving throws - the pally bonus was just +2 :D well, a small difference that can be easily achieven with items :heh:

I aplogize for beeing kinda off topic but since the original question has been asnwered already ... :heh:

Ragusa,
It seems that you believe your playing style is the right playing style. This allows you to call others "ignorant powergamers" when they do something that is not in alignment with your style. It also allows you to redefine terms such as powergamer to allow you to create a character that is not legal (halfling paladin), yet not consider yourself an "ignorant powergamer".

How convenient.

I've made this statement on the board before, but one more time can't hurt:

You bought the game. You paid your money. Play it however you want. Cheat, use SK, use cheese tactics, whatever. It's your business. But don't be so quick to criticize (calling them ignorant) those whose style is different than yours.

***stepping off soapbox

so anyway, back on the topic...

i gave that short sword +2 "kundane" to haerdalis (offhand), and that increases his attacks by 1 - its like belm but since the tiefling can specialise in short swords, is more useful

i also put stonefire in minsc's off-hand (dualing axes frostreaver and stonefire) so he does a wide variety of elemental damage

and last, my fighter/thief dual wields celestial fury with daystar - although i swap hands whenever im up against undead - its just more practical, ne?

Actually it wouldn't significantly change my game style wether I play a *legal* halfling cavalier or an *illegal* dwarven melee fighter with approx the same stats :rolleyes: [EDIT: means - get yourself a standard full plate and a ring of protection +2 and you'll be equal in terms of ST's].
I chose the cavalier example to point out how powergaming character creation can be taken to the extreme :wave: to create maximum inner-strenghts: high con & high wis for maximum st's + halfling race (same exc. st's as dwarfs by nature) + cavalier kit for abilities & immunities & spells & st-boni :wave:

Jack Funk, you even won't notice a joke when you'd hit it with your head ...

forget about it

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 13, 2001).]

I think a good rule of thumb, speaking strategically, is to have weapons which invoke an effect of some description/do extra damage etc (eg the "drinker" longsword (the name escapes me) or Celestial Fury) in the main hand and weapons which have a nice effect on the wielder (eg the Katana with +2 AC vs Slashing or the blade of roses) in the off hand so the character in question can benefit from it all the time. The celestial fury/crom faeyr combo is (at least in SOA) one of the most powerful examples of this tactic. There; I think that just about sums up this topic. Thus, could we please stop all this pretentious, petty, tit-for-tat squabbling, folks? This is the best CRPG board I've come across and this sort of thing is one of the few blights that still trouble it.

Ragusa, You are the personification of batman. :)
You made a magnificent halfling character and now you are fighting the evil forces of lame powergaming who tries to outpower your genious concept. :D

Tassadar you hit the spot. I consider many weapons to be offhand weapons, but against special enemies I weild them in the main hand. An important note you made there. ;)

Tjekanefir You are absolutely right. Powergaming is not a bad term. Many PnP players I have had were powergamers. But I have given in to this board, and now use the expression for someone who lacks roleplaying in any sense of the word.

EDITED HERE: Who votes for Will as a moderator? so fatherly and strict! :D :p
Anyway to sum down on this Will. What is wrong with two weapons that inflicts special effects on the opponent? That could be equally strong. Another thing to keep in mind Will, is that there are many stages in the game. And crom feyer is a late game weapon. What about the prestage. Ohh there is so much yet to talk about :1eye: :)

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 12, 2001).]