The identity of the Nameless One [Archive]

Taluntain

Sun, 27th Jan '02, 12:33am

You can get the Eye of Vecna, actually.

Here, it's an interesting implementation of this powerful artifact:

EYE OF VECNA
(Cursed Artifact)

Special:
Doubles all 1st Level Mage Spells
Doubles all 2nd Level Mage Spells
+35% Resistance to Magic
+4 Save vs. Death Magic
-3 to Wisdom
-3 to Intelligence
Weight: 0

Many tales are told of the arch-lich Vecna.

It is said that Vecna was one of the Planes' mightiest sorcerers, able to draw life from dust and send it back again, extinguish lives with a glance, and make the earth shudder beneath his touch. He was said to be so powerful that when the end of his life drew near, death refused to take him into its kingdom.

And so Vecna died, yet lived on.

Abandoned by death, Vecna became the master of a vast kingdom on a prime world called Oerth. Neither kind nor just, Lord Vecna's rule was one of great horror and suffering, and it is said his reach was so great that even the Powers of Oerth feared to cross him for fearing of drawing his eye.

Yet, while Vecna's gaze traveled ever outward in search of new conquests, he failed to see his own end when it came for him... in the form of his lieutenant, Kas.

As was fitting for Vecna's left hand servant, the arch-lich had fashioned a terrible weapon for his lieutenant as a symbol of his authority. Vecna made this weapon with such skill it is said that part of the sorcerer entered the blade, and it was this sliver of Vecna that gave the blade its life and its treacherous nature. Where once there was lifeless steel, there became thought, intent, and, perhaps most horrible of all, a voice.

The sword whispered treacheries to the ambitious Kas, night upon night, month upon month, year upon year, until one night, the remains of Kas' discipline was seduced by the rippling edge of the blade. Convinced by his blade that he was Vecna's superior, Kas confronted his dread master upon his Dessicated Throne, and the two of them fought a terrible battle.

During the battle, Kas was killed, but before he fell, his blade had dismembered his former master, scattering his remains so that no one may draw them together again. And so it has come to pass that pieces of Vecna have made their way across the Planes... one of these is the Eye of Vecna. It carries with it a bloody, violent history, so much so that many scholars refuse to speak of its treacheries, for fear the eye will come to them, seeking to add another victim to its bloody chronology.

The Eye of Vecna was instrumental in the extermination of the House of Hyeric, once the ruling dynasty in Nyrond. It is said to have been behind the sundering of the Conclave of Tyssis-on-the-Sea, which led to the three-cycle war that poisoned the seas of Malhatai and left the oceanic world barren of life. On the ashen Plane of Ghalentir, it possessed the gentle father of Sasaran, a babe with the potential to lead his suffering people from their shadowed lands to the Gates of Paradise... had not the eye drove Sasaran's father to murder his son as he lay sleeping in his crib. All these kingdoms, all these futures, the Eye of Vecna laid waste.

The Eye's powers are said to shift with each new owner, but one thing is certain: no good ever comes from whoever has the misfortune to possess it. It is destined to betray its wearer at a critical moment, failing him when he needs its power the most.

[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited January 27, 2002).]

Bombur

Thu, 18th Apr '02, 3:37am

Believe it or not, I'm about to post on topic (i.e. not about Vecna):

First, even if Kas was the paranoid incarnation, the paranoid incarnation was not the first, meaning that "Kas" was not nameless' real name.

Second, the game offers some insights into the identity of the nameless one, though it doesn't solve the mystery. For example, we learn in talking with Grace that there are two kinds of names, those you are given and those you earn. Earned names are the most telling of a person's character (e.g. Fall-From-Grace, Reekwind).

Now, when nameless learns his real name, he responds by saying something like, "You mean that was my name all along?" This indicates that his name is something known to him, that is, a word or name with which he is already familiar. He then proceeds to begin (but not to finish) a question inspired by this new revelation, one which begins with "but," as if the revelation of his name brings some confusion to the matter -- as if the name does not completely fit his expectations.

I would suggest that this confusion/incongruity indicates that the name that is revealed to nameless is contrary to what he knows of himself at the time, or at least that it is counter-intuitive. Since he knows that the first incarnation (whose name it is) was evil and then turned good, there is quite a bit of room for the name to be either evil or good, since either one would contradict aspects of the first incarnation. Or perhaps the name is accurate with respect to nameless' story, and the surprise is the accuracy from so many generations before.

But getting back to the "recognition" factor, that is, that nameless evidently knew his name as something other than his name in the course of the story... Nameless is sometimes given the option to lie by saying that his name is Adahn (sp?). That's one option, and I'm sure there are quite a few more.

Here's the one I favor: his name is "Torment." He recognizes this name from his tattoe, of course. Notice that once he merges with the good/first incarnation and uses the sphere, the tattoe "Torment" becomes removable -- he is able to change his name because he now has power over himself and his destiny (recall that with this comes the realization that there is very little he cannot do). The power of the tattoe "Torment" is that it brings the torment of all nameless' past incarnations to bear upon the target, which indicates that this tattoe is nameless' personal tattoe (much like other characters have personal tattoes available, e.g. Tattoe of Annah, etc.), and thus implies a direct correspondence between "Torment" and nameless himself. Also in favor of this idea is the fact that when Fell informs nameless regarding his tattoes, the other tattoes Fell explains represent former/current party members (implying that "Torment" is/was also in the party). Yes, it is possible that "torment" simply describes nameless, but that just makes it a very appropriate "earned" name.

It seems to me that the name "Torment" also has other things in favor of it, such as the fact that the actions of the first incarnation earned eternity in hell (because he "tormented" others), and the very blunt fact that it is the title of the game.

If "Torment" is his real name, then his surprise in learning this name may come from the fact that in knowing himself, he is able to be other than his name would indicate, and in fact has been other (both in his first incarnation and in his present incarnation, if the player has played nameless as a good character). There is also the incongruity that in learning his name and recalling his past, he is filled with regret, but he is no longer tormented himself (thus able to remove the tattoe and to change his name). As I suggested, some incongruity is necessary to explain the "but..."

Here are some added fun tidbits regarding his potential identity: He probably isn't the supreme ruler of the universe (as suggested in a prior post) because he is subjected to punishment ("of a sort") on the lower planes. Also, I don't think there is a "supreme ruler" in the Planescape mythos. The Transcendent One claims, "I am Mortality itself," perhaps meaning "I am *your* mortality itself." But the fact that just "being" mortality itself gives the Transcendent One power over life and death would seem to indicate that it is more than this. Perhaps nameless is not entirely, or at least not merely, human. If nameless' mortality is Mortality (with a capital "M"), then who is nameless? Is he not only the first incarnation of nameless, but also the first man? "Adahn" is rather similar to "Adam," after all. Or is he a redeemer/christ figure? He can save Trias and get a tattoe attesting to his ability to redeem. His entire quest (according to the first incarnation) has been to obtain his own redemption, and when he does obtain his goal, it ends up redeeming the multiverse in a manner of speaking (since his continued existence causes the multiverse to suffer -- which by the way is another good reason to think his name is "Torment"). If he is more than human, as well as human, this also supports his redeemer/christ role (at least in western culture).

So who is nameless? Is he the first man (Adahn/Adam), fallen from grace (reminiscent of another character's name -- the only character who will stick with him after death, by the way) into a life of tormenting others, causing the multiverse and himself to suffer? If so, parallels to the biblical account of man's fall abound -- and the Fall of man is a dominant theme in medieval literature, on which the D&D genre is based. Is "Adahn" his given name and "Torment" his postlapsarian earned name? And is his self-sacrifice at the end, for the sake of the planes, a redemptive act that provides hope that he will one day be forgiven (like the hope he gives to Trias in the "have you forgotten the face of your father?" dialog), just as Grace (note her name change at the end of the story too, and its implications for he last line!) suggests: "Time is not your enemy; forever is"?

Granted, it's fuzzy. Any comments?

[This message has been edited by Bombur (edited April 18, 2002).]

Volar Blackmane

Thu, 18th Apr '02, 5:26pm

*major spoilers*

What I remember from the ending (where he learned his true name) is that it was just a common name. Nothing special. Something like 'John' springs to mind. Anyway, he was no great power, he was just a guy who seeked out a night hag to ask her the gift of immortality, to atone for his sins. (The first incarnation got scared of the fate that awaited him, so he wanted immortality, to become a force of good and perhaps get a better afterlife. (God forgives :p)) And talking about Nameless One as redeemer/christ doesn't really fit, as the game can be played as evil (mocking Trias and killing him, after promising to let him live, that sort of thing. So much for the redeemer :p)

*spoilers end*

And nothing is said about any involvement with Vecna or Kas. Perhaps Nameless One was in some contact with either (Maybe even being the other.), but there's no proof of that. Thinking on the same line, you could say he taught Elminster, as there is no proof he didn't. With all the silly pieces of Vecna in AD&D, I though Morte's 'I am the head of Vecna' comment was funny. Like the old hag outside the mortuary talking about the hammer of whatever-slaying and spewing lightning bolts from the ****. You're not supposed to take everything seriously.

Is the eye of Vecna really a real item in Torment? Where's it found?

Bombur

Sat, 20th Apr '02, 1:32am

The "redeemer/christ" figure is a stock literary character. He/she doesn't need to be good, just on a quest that is intended to accomplish some sort of redemption or reconciliation. Although the most famous example is good (probably the one you're thinking of?), the influence of the Bible on western literature has led to many sub- and even anti- Judeo-Christian redeemer figures in literature. Nameless follows the pattern, whether played as good or evil, because ultimately he puts an end to the suffering of the planes caused by losing his mortality -- regardless of his motivation. Ultimately, no matter what dialog options you choose, he dies willingly (unless you simply reject the written storyline) and the planes are more peaceful.

It may be that he is no one special, but I don't think that is the best explanation of all the allusions and metaphors (those I mentioned in my prior post, for example). Sure, maybe all that stuff is just there accidentally, but the care taken with the story in Torment inclines me to believe that it's intentional and therefore meaningful. "John" doesn't explain nameless reaction of "but..." well enough for me -- his name is somehow significant to his story, not insignificant as something like "John" would be. What question could possibly have jumped to his mind at learning that his name was "John"? What would be so surprising about "John"?

I also think the good incarnation's statement that the evils he committed in his life were so greivous that they rendered the acts of all subsequent incarnations relatively moot implies that the first incarnation was not a nobody. He was so evil that his evil outweighed everything that came after. He was *extremely* evil and caused major damage. This (and many other hints in my opinion) invites us to think of him as someone of note.

ejsmith

Sat, 20th Apr '02, 2:40am

"Who is the nameless one actually?"

His name, in this incarnation, is "Osama Bin-Laden".

No 72 virgins for him in Baator; Just a big a$$ pile o' skulls, and a nasty looking mace to wield.

Suckin'.

Lazy Bonzo

Sat, 20th Apr '02, 11:38am

I'm not sure if this is in topic or not but while reading through this topic something struck me. When you encounter your 3 incarnations who made it to the fortress of regrets. They all look the same as you but since one is the first surely that one wouldn't look very damaged at all since you are told by various people in the game that your scars look as if they took several lifetiems to acumulate. So the first incarantion should have the tormet tatto certainly but shouldn't be covered in scars. Also the other 2 should be more damaged but you should be the most sicne you are the last incarnation. Does anyone ahve any thoughts on this?

Volar Blackmane

Sat, 20th Apr '02, 5:08pm

They didn't do a different model for the unseeing eye in BG2 either, and that was a huge beholder missing his central eye. Guess they just don't bother :rolleyes:

Anyway, the point with "John" was that Nameless One was expecting something far grander, because of what he was. Then when he found it out, he was surprised saying something like "Is that it?". The whole idea was that his name actually wasn't anything special :p I didn't make it up, the game says something like 'it's some common name' when he finds it out.

[I'll just remove the Osama bit as the guy doesn't seem too popular. Let's see if ejsmith removes his bit.]

[This message has been edited by Volar Blackmane (edited April 21, 2002).]

Taluntain

Sat, 20th Apr '02, 7:08pm

You know, throwing Osama into this discussion was really, really lame. I won't flame you, I'll just close the topic down if any more people start talking about Osama. If you want to show your appreciation for mass murderers, do it somewhere else. Preferrably off my forums. Because it's not funny even as a joke.

Bombur

Sun, 21st Apr '02, 4:42am

If the game says it's a common name, then I totally missed that part. Are you sure about that, or just going on memory? I'd explore the dialog myself except that my IEE won't open it for some reason (maybe because of this weird 2CD version I have of PST).

Lazy Bonzo

Sun, 21st Apr '02, 10:28am

Bombur it doesn't say that it is a common name becasue it doesn't say the name at all to the player only to the nameless one whose response is "But.." . From this some people have speculated that his response was due to his surprise to learn that his name was something like Fred, common name, rather than for example Bonzo the Great, amazingly powerful adventurer name :grin:

Bombur

Mon, 22nd Apr '02, 12:47am

That's what I thought, but Volar wrote: "I didn't make it up, the game says something like 'it's some common name' when he finds it out." I wanted to know if the game really said that somewhere, or if Volar was mistaken when he said he the game actually said something like "it's some common name."

I freely admit it's all speculative (unless Volar is right about the game saying it's a common name), but I do think some speculations have more merit than others. Moreover, some speculations are simply more fun. ;)

Volar Blackmane

Mon, 22nd Apr '02, 4:36pm

I'm pretty sure. Maybe someone (Hey, Extremist! ;)) could find the bronze sphere dialogue bit from somewhere, as I doubt anyone wants to play through the entire game through again just to find out.

Extremist

Mon, 22nd Apr '02, 4:46pm

The sphere wrinkles in your hands, the skin of the sphere peeling away into tears and turning into a rain of bronze that encircles you. Each droplet, each fragment that enters you, you feel a new memory stirring, a lost love, a forgotten pain, an ache of loss - and with it, comes the great pressure of regret, regret of careless actions, the regret of suffering, regret of war, regret of death, and you feel your mind begin *buckling* from the pressure - so MUCH, all at once, so much damage done to others... so much so an entire FORTRESS may be built from such pain.

And suddenly, through the torrent of regrets, you feel the first incarnation again. His hand, invisible and weightless, is upon your shoulder, steadying you. He doesn't speak, but with his touch, you suddenly remember your name.

...and it is such a *simple* thing, not at all what you thought it might be, and you feel yourself suddenly comforted. In knowing your name, your true name, you know that you have gained back perhaps the most important part of yourself.

In knowing your name, you know yourself, and you know, now, there is very little you cannot do. The first incarnation's hand is gone from your shoulder, and he is watching you with a slight smile.

NAMELESS ONE TRIES TO SPEAK: "That was my name all along? But if I was-"

The first incarnation holds his finger to his lips, silencing you. He nods at the symbol at your arm, as if indicating you should make use of it.

-------------------------------------------

That's all about it.

Bombur

Tue, 23rd Apr '02, 5:16am

That's about how I remembered it. Volar, maybe you understand "*simple* thing" as a reference to his name, whereas I read it as a reference to the experience of remembering his name -- no earth shaking experience, but rather comfort.

SleepleSS

Tue, 23rd Apr '02, 12:00pm

Sorry but when I read all of this, I'm getting confused, I did never had the power to read the real name in the bronze sphere, could somebody please just give me that name withoud all thos theories?

Oh wait, I think I get it, the player shall never know the name right? TNO hears it's name, but the player will never know am I right?

[This message has been edited by SleepleSS (edited April 23, 2002).]

Extremist

Tue, 23rd Apr '02, 4:24pm

Exactly. Player never finds it out. Nameless One does.

Volar Blackmane

Tue, 23rd Apr '02, 5:09pm

Pretty much like I remembered it, thanks for posting it.

And correct, with 'simple thing' I in fact took it to be just a simple name. Like Jack, John, Fred, whatever. I think it fits the story better, but as it really isn't clearly said, feel free to discard my opinion as useless (everyone does that :p).

SleepleSS

Tue, 23rd Apr '02, 7:25pm

Man that sucks! The whole damn game you hear everything TNO hears you feel everything TNO Feels you decide what TNO says and does, and must live with the outcome of it, and then the game keeps a secret for you.. it's not fair! I think the game did just drop from a 10 to a 8, I mean this is the same as in BG you should not find out you are a child of Bhaal! But I KNOW The name of the nameless one! Now it's clear to me! HE IS The mameless one! HIS name IS Nameless Think of it! That's why he knew it allready, thats why he doesn't know his name, that's why NOBODY does! But ectually they know it all since there is no name! So well it's back to a 9 now :)!

Ironbeard

Wed, 24th Apr '02, 3:22pm

I've not thought about it all that deeply, but I like that Adahn/Adam thingy. Perhaps as the first man, he stands for all men. In fact, I'm sure I read some theory that in the original Hebrew(?) text of Genesis "Adam" might actually have been a word for man, and has been interpreted as one man's name "Adam" as the result of thousands of years of translations. So perhaps the nameless one is in some sense "Man" or "humanity".

Volar Blackmane

Wed, 24th Apr '02, 5:08pm

But if you lied about the Adahn thingie enough times you got to meet Adahn yourself... More probable that the Adahn thing was just a nice surprise for people who went through with it, than his name really being 'Adahn'.

SleepleSS

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 7:22am

Well I'm pretty sure his name is nameless. It just fits the story perfectly! Why do people get names? Listen to grace, Because of the things they do, Since Nameless is difrent in every life, there is no name that goes well on him, so that's why he doesn't have a name, or is simpoly named nameless, because he didn;t deserve a name. (Or didn't want one since he was evil, Know what I mean?) That explains why he said But... It was like, if I have no name why? And then he relised it. It makes sence to me :)!

Trias

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 12:05pm

I read somewhere that his name could be Yemeth,an evil mage who steals souls to extend his own life.

SleepleSS

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 12:32pm

This could have been one of the names people did give to him... But there are many more! By the way (And a bit off-topic :) ) What was the name (And zombie number) Of that blind archer, that did travel with you in an other life?

Trias

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 1:26pm

Xachariah or something similar...

[This message has been edited by Trias (edited April 25, 2002).]

SleepleSS

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 2:53pm

Thanks, Now al I must do is find him again :)!

Volar Blackmane

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 5:01pm

But Nameless One is an earned name, not his real name. We're discussing his real name here.

SleepleSS

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 8:42pm

No look that's the entire point, he had his earned name already when he was borned! That's why he set but... It was in like but how did me mother know that this would happen to me back then? So now one question comes to mind, who was his mother?

I was once thinking of Ravel, she is older than he is and loves him but maybe: Loves him like a son!

Trias

Thu, 25th Apr '02, 9:26pm

No,the name he received when he was born is given,while the other are earned

SleepleSS

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 7:23am

So, why can't you earn the name that is given to you? I know a girl names Angel, and she is so nice and so political corect, that she could exually be an angel...

If Ravel is his mother she could have *seen* things and she *Know* what would happen to him, so that's why she gave him his earned name allready, or maybe didn't bother of giving him a name at all, what again makes him nameless..

and now I hear you saying: But...

Trias

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 12:27pm

Do you remember the conversation with Grace about names?
You earn a name by your actions...

SleepleSS

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 12:45pm

Yes I do remember that's the whole point! some people have names some people earn names...

But some times, people get the name that they earn... that's all I'm trying to say...

Trias

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 12:59pm

Whatever...we don't know his name,nor we will,so it's pretty useless keep talking 'bout that...

Volar Blackmane

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 5:32pm

I wonder if anyone else came up with the brilliant idea Ravel was actually Nameless One's mother :rolleyes:

Ravel: "Nameless One, join me and we will rule the galaxy together as mother and son! You can defeat Transcendent One, he has foreseen it!"

But remember the portal to Ravel's maze? It could be opened only if you had a part of Ravel, or her children with you. Even if you tried without the blood from her daughter, it wouldn't work. So Nameless One can't be Ravel's child, otherwise the portal would've opened. Ha! ;)

SleepleSS

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 7:48pm

The portal would have opened if nameless one was a part of Ravel... that sounds so true, but what if the portal didn't open because the nameless didn't know he was a part of Ravel? I mean sometimes you need more than just a key to open a lock, you have to turn it to open it. Since nameless had know idea he was the key, he didn't work as key...

But maybe he wasn't ravels son, and than we are back by the begining who is TNO?

Then again, maybe I'm wrong but, that Practical incarnation, I don't think he did al the things that he says he did, he couldn't have done it all! I maen if you listen to Morte, he did travel with A LOT of incarnations. Pharot was already old when he did meet the practical incarnation Musn't he be dead by now?

And one more thin Dak'kon and Morte must have been with the nameless one before, but I never hear them talk about the 2 of them traveling togheter. They didn't loose their mind So DAK"KON must KNOW Morte when he entered the smoldering corpse bar and Morte should have said something when he recognised Dak'kon.

and about Ignus TNO teached him to use fire and spells but when? Did he teach him in the life before the one you play? His girlfriend is pretty young, so it couldn't be that long ago.

And then Annah: Where was Morte when Annah found TNO? If he was hanging in shadows than he must have recognised Annah, and if you know Morte he WOULD have said something about this...

Final question who btought Morte to the mortuary? Why didn't Morte know about Deionara?

Xenecor

Fri, 26th Apr '02, 10:21pm

The Nameless One can't be Ravel's son mostly because she was in love with him.

There was a reference to Dak'kon and Morte traveling together when you use the stone in the statue room. The nameless one says all of the companions names "Morte, Dak'kon, Xacharaiah, and Deionnara" (I believe that was the order but it's not important)

And, as Morte and Dak'kon mentioned in some of the individual dialogue, they both didn't like the incarnation they were with before. They didn't want to talk about him.

In order for you to learn Ignus' spells you have to talk to him extensively

(btw) these questions are all pretty off topic here

[This message has been edited by Xenecor (edited April 26, 2002).]

SleepleSS

Sat, 27th Apr '02, 8:32pm

They are not totally oftopic, they have to do with actions of TNO and maybe his actions could tell us his name/identety.

Well maybe I did expect to much of the game, about some dialogs...

But tell me about Ignus, when did I teach him, I talked to him for hours the first time I played it, but now I can't remember that much..

Yesterday I played Torment again and after talking the FFG I talked to morte, he was talking of several incarnations:

One who was extremly good, and wanted to but him back on the pillar of skulls.

One was mad and thought that Morte was his head, this one ended up under a cariot.

We also know that ther was that Paranoid incarnation, the one that you meet in the fortress.

and than there is the one that teached Ignus.

So there must have been at least 4 incarnations after the practical incarnation. How could Pharod have outlived them all? he was already very old, when the practical incarnation met him! (Like I sayed before)...

[This message has been edited by SleepleSS (edited April 28, 2002).]

Buck Caine

Tue, 30th Apr '02, 1:11pm

Well, we will never find out the Nameless Ones name, that's just the way it is. Returning to some quite early posts though, we can still speculate about the original incarnations identity and personal history.'

It is highly unlikely that Incarnation 1 was Vecna or anyone associated with that whole story, those are just fantasies of people who have plowed too deep into ADD-manuals.

There are som insinuations, though, throughout the game.

1. TNO was apparently an extremely powerful mage. He trained Ignus, constructed powerful magical traps in his dungeon and in the Yellow Disc dialouge, it says TNO *knows* there isn´t much he CANNOT do.

2. TNO was probably involved in the Blood War somehow. If you listen to the lectures in the Civic Festhalls, my guess is that they give you plenty of clues to the history of Incarnation 1 and his deeds.

The picture is fortified by the imprisoned fiend in the outlands, who has been working as a recruiter to the Blood Wars. He doesnt remember you exactly, but you remind him of someone. He tells you he recruited humans to work as frontline troops in the blood wars.

Remember the dead contracts the dustmen purchase? As an analogy, the stor of Incarnation 1 probably goes something like that.

It is the classic story of 'Faust'. Incarnation 1 signs a contract that after death, he will go to Baator and fight in the Blood Wars. He gains his reward for it - great magical powers. But Incarnation 1 has a plan - he is going to fool them all!

He is going to become immortal, so that he never has to fullfill his part of the deal. Contacts Ravel, goes through the routine, but, alas - the rest of the story we know.

What do you think?

Another farfetched theory of TNOs name:

TNOs name is actually 'ONE'.

It is so simple: TNO is "The nameless ONE", meaning: ONE not knowing his name.

When you ask people what name you have, most of the alternatives end with ONE: The immortal ONE, and so on! 'The Transcendent ONE', then means the part of ONE which is transcendent - a.k.a. his soul/mortality.

Something to think about!

Xenecor

Tue, 30th Apr '02, 2:47pm

He is going to become immortal, so that he never has to fullfill his part of the deal. Contacts Ravel, goes through the routine, but, alas - the rest of the story we know.

The good incarnation, who was the original one, said that he wished to become immortal because of the evil he had done. He wished not to be doomed to the fate he put himself in.

SleepleSS

Tue, 30th Apr '02, 8:29pm

Wait, so you guys saying that he must fight in the bloodwar because of a contrackt, but he must also serve in it for the evil things he did. So in that case he has to fight in the blood war TWICE could it be possible that another incarnation that already fight and die in the bloodwar? That that was an incarnation who deicided that he wanted to do what he had promised? I mean thats way FFT has forgotten you, you did serve in the bloodwar, according to the contrackt.

Hmmm now that I wrote this down, it's not making sense anymore, but it was just a thought...

By the way Morte (The human version) did led you to your dead with a lie, thats why he ended up on the pillar. Than he got fried by the practical incarnation, and he floats with you since then, and he is chaotic good :) sorry I wa'nted to make a point but i'm lost in my thoughts right now...
(Yi-Haaaaaaaaa?)

Walker

Fri, 23rd Aug '02, 9:26pm

Anyone remember Karl Edward Wagner's Kane character? He was immortal, but could be killed, just not age, also had great recouperating powers.

Is there a correlation between the two. Kane was cursed by a god for some great evil (I never learned what it was), most of the thing he did were good. I was wondering if TNO was based upon that character.

Rastor

Sat, 24th Aug '02, 12:31am

Walker, it's certainly possible. All of the theories in this thread are pure speculation.

I doubt that he was anyone particularly special at first, however, in his later incarnations that certainly changed.

Platter

Sat, 24th Aug '02, 6:19pm

From Lazy Bonzo:
When you encounter your 3 incarnations who made it to the fortress of regrets.I know that post is old but...

Those weren't incarnations that made it to the Fortress. They weren't there until the Crystal split you up. The Practical had been there, but it's not as though he's been waiting there since then. They were all inside your mind, and came out when you touched the Crystal after fighting Ignus/Vhailor.
The first incarnation is one of the three, yet the Fortress did not even exist when he was alive (Ravel tells you she killed him right after making him immortal).

Have I said this before?

Kurtz

Sun, 25th Aug '02, 9:52pm

The 3 incarnations are those strongest in the nameless one's mind, they are those most referred to throughout the rest of the game.

Herf

Sun, 25th Aug '02, 11:09pm

And suddenly, through the torrent of regrets, you feel the first incarnation again. His hand, invisible and weightless, is upon your shoulder, steadying you. He doesn't speak, but with his touch, you suddenly remember your name.

...and it is such a *simple* thing, not at all what you thought it might be, and you feel yourself suddenly comforted. In knowing your name, your true name, you know that you have gained back perhaps the most important part of yourself.

In knowing your name, you know yourself, and you know, now, there is very little you cannot do. The first incarnation's hand is gone from your shoulder, and he is watching you with a slight smile.

"That was my name all along? But if I was-"

The first incarnation holds his finger to his lips, silencing you.Just to clear it all up :D

The Transendent One

Sun, 21st Dec '03, 10:31am

ok i got it i found out how to get his true name:
1.call up forgoten realms
2 ask them for his name
-OR-
1.do above
2.they refuse
3.you sue (I dont know what for but do it anyway)
4.get good loyar (i cant spell for crap)
5.nagotiate for name

:yot: ummm... who decided TNO was a man... why not a woman? oh ya and did any one find out who morte REALLY REALLY was when he was alive?

Rastor

Mon, 22nd Dec '03, 1:03am

Unlike the other D&D games, PST does not take place in the Forgotten Realms so I doubt that would help much.

Morte claims that he's the head of Vecna, but that's all we ever find out.

ummm... who decided TNO was a man... why not a woman?It would be kind of difficult for a woman to walk around dressed like TNO does without attracting a lot of attention.

Jesper898

Mon, 22nd Dec '03, 1:05am

Oh by the way, I absolutely LOVE PST :p

I don't know why I hated it at first :confused:

EDIT

Ah this topic is 2 years old I was just a silly Diablo2 hack&slasher then ;)

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would try to achieve immortality to escape serving in the Blood War for eternity.

[ December 22, 2003, 02:41: Message edited by: jesper898 ]

The Transendent One

Tue, 23rd Dec '03, 3:47am

LOL your right he should be a man...

And wasn't morte being the head of Vecna all a joke? :confused:

Taluntain

Tue, 23rd Dec '03, 4:24pm

It was. Morte is as much the head of Vecna as Fall-from-Grace is an angel.

Rastor

Tue, 23rd Dec '03, 5:30pm

Hence the reason why I said it was a claim. He says it while trying to impress Grace.

ArrynMorgerim

Tue, 30th Dec '03, 11:27pm

I get the impression that TNO is very old, and his "lifetime" nears infinity, as does the number of incarnations. The story just doesn't care about continuity.
PS setting is the right place for time travelling, lopps and the like, isn't it? Perhaps TNO had tons of incarnations, while only ten or so years passed form Pharod's perspective.

And one more thing? Aren't the residnets of Sigil petitioners? That would somewhat alter their lifespans and mortality. After all, this setting is one of infinete possibilities...

Meatdog

Wed, 31st Dec '03, 11:02am

I personaly think that his incarnations just didn't survive very long before falling to the shadows or reaching the fortress and losing back their memories, hence becoming a new incarnation.

Rastor

Wed, 31st Dec '03, 6:33pm

The practical incarnation (The one Pharod met) was not the first incarnation. As I understand it, Practical did his thing a few decades before the story began. Therefore, it's quite possible that the continuity timeline is not as out-of-sorts as you accuse it of being. The seven individuals in the game who had any experience with Practical (Pharod, Da'Kon, Deionarra, Xachariah, Morte, Hamrys, and possibly the Mercykiller) are either dead or extremely old. It is possible that individuals in other planes live longer lives (I've never seen any contradictory information), but even if not, Pharod and Hamrys are easily approaching their centennial by the time you meet them...

Iago

Wed, 31st Dec '03, 6:55pm

Hm, have to play the game again, sometime. My fainted memory leaves the impression, that the practical one wasn't a lot of time before. I think practical one, crazy one, 1-2 in between, nameless one. (Or is it even the crazy one, that got killed in the shadows-flashback ?). So, the practical one may be in the range of 10 and some years before. Isn't it possible to guess the approx. time with the lawyer, when you read the testament of Deionarra ? What I am pretty sure of, is, that the practical one had a very long life.

Platter

Thu, 1st Jan '04, 4:02am

Hamrys was a little boy when the Practical Incarnation had the tomb commissioned... we never get a description of how old he is when we meet him in the game.

Aelwyn met an incarnation matching the description of the Paranoid Incarnation "perhaps no more than fifty years ago." The Paranoid Incarnation killed Finam's father, and Finam says this was "perhaps fifty years ago." That's two different sources saying the Paranoid Incarnation was around 50 years ago, and we know the Practical Incarnation was before the Paranoid Incarnation. Of course, most of the references to the Practical Incarnation make it seem as though he lived not too long ago.

We know there were probably about 3 incarnations between the Paranoid Incarnation and the game starting because of the prophecy in the Paranoid Incarnation's journal about TNO keeping his memories after three more deaths ("He says that only after THREE MORE DEATHS, THREE MORE LIVES will I gain the benefit of keeping my memories"), which happens in the game.
Also keep in mind that it was the Practical Incarnation who first met Morte, and when you ask Morte how long he's known you he says "Don't know. Ages, I suppose." And Morte describes knowing several incarnations, like the one who tried to put him back onto the Pillar and the one who thought Morte was his skull and eventually got crushed by a cart.

When I was asking Dave Maldonado about some of the memories a while ago he mentioned this;
"Quite a few of his experiences/memories throughout the game were written for effect and then mooshed together later to be somewhat cohesive, heh."

[ January 01, 2004, 04:30: Message edited by: Platter ]

Rastor

Thu, 1st Jan '04, 7:32pm

If Hamrys was a child when Practical was around, then how did Practical take his adult daughter to the Fortress of Regrets?

ArrynMorgerim

Sat, 3rd Jan '04, 5:01pm

1) If Hamrys was a child when Practical was around, then how did Practical take his adult daughter to the Fortress of Regrets? he took Deionarra with him, and she was not Hamrys' daughter, but the lawyer's.

2) We know there were probably about 3 incarnations between the Paranoid Incarnation and the game starting because of the prophecy in the Paranoid Incarnation's journal about TNO keeping his memories after three more deaths ("He says that only after THREE MORE DEATHS, THREE MORE LIVES will I gain the benefit of keeping my memories"), which happens in the game. I think that it is not considered a beginning of new incarnation when he hasn't lost his memories.

Rastor

Sat, 3rd Jan '04, 10:06pm

Isn't Hamrys the lawyer? Or has my 6-month old memory failed?

Jesper898

Sat, 3rd Jan '04, 10:21pm

I've never realy understood why TNO doesn't lose his memories anymore.

Could anyone explain?

Dragon's Jewel

Sun, 4th Jan '04, 1:57pm

He kinda explains it at the end, where he says that he's no longer losing his memories, and he so he knows it's time to merge (you know with whom I mean)
It might also fit in with the prophecy, that this is the lifetime where he can die and still wake up the same person.

ArrynMorgerim

Sun, 4th Jan '04, 8:55pm

I thought he was losing memories only "from time to time", and so one incarnation could have taken more than one life. perhaps it's something like sleep: you can fall asleep for some 25 000+- times without danger, and then you won't awake...

Jesper898

Mon, 5th Jan '04, 1:37am

Who tells you about this prophecy?

I've beaten the game twice but i'll be damned if I can remember anything about a prophecy :p

ArrynMorgerim

Fri, 9th Jan '04, 9:31pm

If you mean the one that an incarnation (I forgot which one) has only three memory-losless death ahead, I think it was in the nameless' traped tomb.

Platter

Sat, 10th Jan '04, 5:52pm

Hamrys is the coffin maker.

The prophecy was told to the Paranoid Incarnation, and he wrote it in the Dodecahedron Journal;
"There is NOTHING he can do. Memories are GONE, he says, NEVER to return. He says/lies and tells me this is what he told me! LIES! He says my mind is WEAKENING from every death! LIES! He sat there, BETRAYING my CONFIDENCE with every turn.
He says that only after THREE MORE DEATHS, THREE MORE LIVES will I gain the benefit of keeping my memories, but that I, MYSELF, I will DIE when I die. DIE! How can one be immortal and still DIE?! He could not answer, so he was of NO USE. I BUTCHERED him so that no other incarnation will ever benefit from his USELESSNESS."

For those talking about whether or not TNO lost his memory with each death prior to the game starting, you may want to check out this thread in which I said pretty much all I have to say about that (post numbers 5, 8 and 15);
http://www.forumplanet.com/planetbaldursgate/topic.asp?fid=1885&tid=1234974

I think that it is not considered a beginning of new incarnation when he hasn't lost his memories.Correct. But, assuming he forgot with each death until the start of the game, "THREE MORE DEATHS, THREE MORE LIVES" = three more incarnations (and if you doubt said 'assumption' than read the above linked thread before challenging it, please).
I've never realy understood why TNO doesn't lose his memories anymore.

Could anyone explain?There is no reason given.

[ January 10, 2004, 18:28: Message edited by: Platter ]

HeresiarchQin

Sun, 11th Jan '04, 4:28pm

Platter

Mon, 12th Jan '04, 5:07am

The Nameless One apparently was a powerful person before became an immortal, for he was a general in the battlefield, was a powerful mage who "danced sorceries with Lum the Mad (Lum is also the same mage who created the machine in the Watcher's Keep of ToB)", and raising dead or alike was nothing but simple work for him.Most of those things are never specifically attributed to the mortal incarnation of The Nameless One.

When The Transcendent One is telling you about all the things he's learned from TNO, he's talking about things he's learned from any/all of TNO's incarnations, not just the original incarnation. Here is the quote;
TTO: "BROKEN ONE, IN THE SPAN OF YOUR FORGOTTEN LIFETIMES, I HAVE OBSERVED, LEARNED, AND GATHERED POWER WITHIN THE VAULTS OF MY BODY.
WHEN YOU FOUGHT IN THE BLACK DECADE WAR, ALL YOUR MILITARY KNOWLEDGE WAS CARVED IN MY MIND. WHEN YOU DANCED SORCERIES WITH LUM THE MAD, I LEARNED WITH YOU. ALL YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, I HAVE *NOT.* THE POWER OVER LIFE AND DEATH IS BUT A MINOR DISPLAY OF MY POWER."

TTO also explains later that the reason he has power over life and death is not necessarily because he learned it from any incarnation of TNO (let alone the original incarnation), but simply because he is mortality;
TTO: "I AM MORTALITY ITSELF. THE NATURE OF LIFE AND DEATH IS SOMETHING I KNOW... WELL."

1.While the mortal TNO was a general in battlefield, did he take part in the Blood War as well?There is only one memory that we know is of the original incarnation in which he appears to be leading an army, and the first half of it is triggered when Ghysis asks TNO if he remembers ever being in the Blood War. A while ago I asked Dave Maldonado (one of the major designers on Torment, who also wrote Ghysis' dialog) about that memory and if it was specifically of the Blood War;
"I hate to say it, but it's one of the many ambiguities of the game. Yes, TNO was down there, and he certainly saw the Blood War, and it touched him and his men as he led them out of (what is probably) the Abyss and into the Gray Waste, but that's all that was laid out as "certain" in writing."

2.The Abishais in the Smoldering Corpse Bar, and the Baatezu in Curst know TNO, but which TNO? The "mortal" TNO?We are never given that information.

3.In the opening movie, you see TNO caress a girl who suddenly turns into a zombie, pointing at TNO along with others...who are they? Were they people who TNO killed with purpose (like sacrificing Deionarra in the fortress) before TNO became immortal, or they were the ones he loved but died before he became "evil", or they were people who was close to TNO but suffered after he attained immortality, because we all know how the shadows was created by him...From Chris Avellone, Torment's Lead Designer;
http://platter.jink.org/threads/chris_girl.htm
"... the woman that appears in the movie is an unidentified victim of one of the Nameless One's previous incarnations. She was made up by the artists, and her story was never fleshed out or put into the game. It was more of a, "it looks cool, let's put her in.""

4.In the end, did TNO "die"? In what form does he walk in the lower planes, his whole physical form? A spirit/soul? If he "die" there, will he be released?Dave Maldonado gave some insight into that;
"He gets sucked right on down because Ravel's magic/"the split" isn't protecting him from becoming an owned petitioner anymore. He's dead already, many times over, and doesn't need to die again to enter his "bargain.""

HeresiarchQin

Mon, 12th Jan '04, 11:47am

Wow, thanks a LOT! That truly helps.

ArrynMorgerim

Sat, 17th Jan '04, 12:50am

That's certainly interesting.
(That was an aswer we were giving to our English teacher when we were asked for our opinion on something.)

Jesper898

Thu, 22nd Jan '04, 3:57am

Thanks for the replies, I understand a bit better now, I wondered if he died in the end too.

ArrynMorgerim

Thu, 22nd Jan '04, 8:43pm

The Abishais in the Smoldering Corpse Bar, and the Baatezu in Curst know TNO, but which TNO? The "mortal" TNO?

We are never given that information.
They say it was a few hundred ears ago, and i think they would not recognize TNO, if they had known the original one (not grey, scared - see his transformation in the intro)

3.In the opening movie, you see TNO caress a girl who suddenly turns into a zombie, pointing at TNO along with others...who are they? Were they people who TNO killed with purpose (like sacrificing Deionarra in the fortress) before TNO became immortal, or they were the ones he loved but died before he became "evil", or they were people who was close to TNO but suffered after he attained immortality, because we all know how the shadows was created by him...

From Chris Avellone, Torment's Lead Designer;
http://platter.jink.org/threads/chris_girl.htm
"... the woman that appears in the movie is an unidentified victim of one of the Nameless One's previous incarnations. She was made up by the artists, and her story was never fleshed out or put into the game. It was more of a, "it looks cool, let's put her in.""
This is a speculation: At first his hand is smooth, so he had known her back when he was normal man. Then his hand turns into that zombie-like. Perhaps she's acusing him of becoming immortal, while she aged and eventualy died.

P.S. ummm... who decided TNO was a man... why not a woman? Have not Fall from Grace said TNO was probably a human male?

[ January 22, 2004, 20:54: Message edited by: ArrynMorgerim ]

Iago

Mon, 2nd Feb '04, 3:16pm

Don't know if that's true, but I think nameless one only looses his memories when he's killed by shadows. He's memory loss is triggered by TTO somehow I think. "Normal" death doesn't lead to memory loss.

I'm playing it through once more. He's daughter disappeared four years ago, says the lawyer. Practical one was also around 4 years ago. And don't forget the woman on the market, who recognises you and has vivid memories about Deionarra and the blind archer.

On the other hand, you get a message from a crazy incarnation which is about two normal lifetimes old through the daughter of the women the crazy one gave it to deliver. So, now I think about crazy one as before practical one.

I still think that Practical one lived a very long life, but when I end, I have to check, if it was really the practical one who ordered the tomb. I think, that I attributed every reasonable and mean deed of former incarnations to the practical one. A credit he mabye didn't deserve.

Or is it, that the three fractions of yourself you meet are compendiums of incarnations ? Bound together according to have been practical/evil, crazy/chaotic and Peaceful/good ? And the "dominating" of all those talks to you with knowledge of them all ? The problematic part about this view is the one, the "good" incarnation, who claims to be the first incarnation who had a life as geographer, until the shadows came for him.

Lazy Bonzo

Mon, 2nd Feb '04, 8:12pm

The paranoid incarnation built the trapped tomb, because he was parnoid of those who he thought as other people coming to steal what was his (his memories). Of course as we, and TNO, finds out he was paranoid of himself and his future incarnations.

Iago

Thu, 5th Feb '04, 3:53pm

No, the crazy one improved the traps in the tomb after he found it, but he didn't build the tomb. The practical one, which lived before the crazy one, getspretty angered about that when it's mentioned. But I'm still not sure if the practical one build the tomb.

Rastor

Thu, 5th Feb '04, 5:31pm

I always thought that the Good Incarnation built the tomb, and the Paranoid put all the additional traps in it.

Blue Loon

Thu, 5th Feb '04, 10:34pm

:yot: Ah a game with a chacter named after me. I feel honored that they thought I was so great that I must be in it. :grin: Thank you all, for convincing me to buy it.

Platter

Fri, 6th Feb '04, 6:43am

I think nameless one only looses his memories when he's killed by shadows.No, when Ravel killed the original incarnation to test his immortality, he instantly forgot everything, as we learn from Ravel;
Ravel: "... Not long after the spell a-drew to a close, I killed you to see if it had worked. You struggled so, but I kept my grip *tight* and watched you die your first of many deaths." Ravel *clacks* her teeth. "Then was I a-learned in its flaws..."
Nameless One: "What flaws?"
Ravel: "Ego enwraps us like a prison. Forgot I did that it ofttimes serves as a shield." Ravel clicks her tongue. "My pretty, pretty thing, there is much wisdom and understanding in the truth that life is a preparation for the ultimate goal: death. Our life is a means by which we learn *how* to die. If we FORGET such things..."
Nameless One: "So that's when you discovered I lost my memories when I died..."
Ravel: "Yess..." Ravel nods. "Unfortunate... without the mortality to hold such memories tight, the shell a body is..."

And also from the original incarnation himself;
Good Incarnation: "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

Not to mention the fact that you can get killed by Shadows all you want in the game without loosing your memories.
He's daughter disappeared four years ago, says the lawyer. Practical one was also around 4 years ago.Neither of these are ever said anywhere in the game.

And don't forget the woman on the market, who recognises you and has vivid memories about Deionarra and the blind archer.She says that "t'was so long ago," and she is also described as "old."

So, now I think about crazy one as before practical one.We know for a fact that the Paranoid Incarnation was after the Practical Incarnation. A few examples;
1. The Paranoid Incarnation's Dodecahedron journal mentions the legacy that the Practical Incarnation made;
Dodecahedron journal: "A LEGACY, the note read, 'FORGET NOT TO COLLECT YOUR LEGACY,' and a small CODE scratched beside it: 51-AA..."

2. The Paranoid Incarnation was haunted by Deionarra's ghost, while it was the Practical Incarnation who killed her;
Nameless One: "Why did Deionarra have to die?"
Practical Incarnation: "Deionarra? That girl had little sense of the Planes in her, and that was what I needed her for. You see, the Dustmen have it right - sometimes when you feel too much passion, you cling too tightly to life to let go. And neither did Deionarra - as I hoped she would."
Paranoid Incarnation: "That WOMAN - that GHOST?!" The hunched man's eyes well up in fury, and spittle flies from his mouth. "She TORMENTED me for years, pursuing me, hating me, and YOU WERE THE ONE THAT KILLED HER?!"

3. The Paranoid Incarnation changed the tomb the Practical Incarnation built (see below).

I have to check, if it was really the practical one who ordered the tomb.Nameless One: "You built that tomb beneath Sigil, didn't you? The one with the traps?"
Practical Incarnation: "I'd almost forgotten - yes, what a waste that was." The incarnation seems irritated. "Obviously, *that* didn't work. And it cost a lot of blood and coin, too." He frowns. "It was shortly after the failure of that that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."
Paranoid Incarnation: "Worthless!" The second incarnation breaks into uneven laughter, but it more gleeful than mad. "It was EASY to breach that child's trap. I found it... and CHANGED it. To make it HARDER. Changed the WRITINGS."
Practical Incarnation: The first incarnation frowns at the second; he looks like he is barely restraining himself from attacking the other. "Yet *another* thing you will answer for..." He turns back to you. "Though I suppose it doesn't matter. It was shortly after the failure of the tomb trap that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."

The problematic part about this view is the one, the "good" incarnation, who claims to be the first incarnation who had a life as geographer, until the shadows came for him.When he claims to have been a cartographer and killed by Shadows, he is hiding from you the fact that he is the original incarnation - he was lying. He later reveals the truth and tells you that Ravel was the one who killed him (see above).

[ February 06, 2004, 06:54: Message edited by: Platter ]

Iago

Fri, 6th Feb '04, 5:30pm

No, when Ravel killed the original incarnation to test his immortality, he instantly forgot everything, as we learn from Ravel.
Yep, that's true. So I change my statement. He only looses his memory when his mortality comes into play. The first dead, as the mortality was separated. And every other dead when the transcedent one has something to do with it. Sure is, that the transcedent one has all the knowledge of all incarnations except the knowledge of the living incarnation. I think the memory lose is triggered by transcendent one, when he has a chance to absorb the memories.

And the transcedentend one is also tight to the shadows that follow you. The maybe bring you to him ?

But even there is a fault, because if the transcendent one has the memory of the practical one, he'd know about Deionarra and the purpose of her presence. But then again, even if he knows, he doesn't expcet her to be able to save you from his trap, so why would he care.

Paranoid Incarnation: "That WOMAN - that GHOST?!" The hunched man's eyes well up in fury, and spittle flies from his mouth. "She TORMENTED me for years, pursuing me, hating me, and YOU WERE THE ONE THAT KILLED HER?!"
Yes that's true either. The problem is, that the crazy one wasn't the first crazy incarnation. There are many and least one who left the message for you by the mother of the seer in the upper district. Which was, according to the description of her mother crazy.

So yes, the crazy one lived after the practical one, in the time between 4 til 1 year before you, I just made the mistake in the first, to attribute crazy thing to the crazy incarnation you speak to at the end. There are traces of many others around. And my idea, that all those 3 incarnations are represantive of many other incarnations has turned to dust too. If you ask the practical one about ignus, he hasn't a clue who Ignus is.

She says that "t'was so long ago," and she is also described as "old."

It must have been 4 years ago. And she also says, that here eyes have already gone bad, at the time she saw you last. In the meantime it got worse.

Neither of these are ever said anywhere in the game.

Deionarras father, the lawyer, says that his daughter disappeared four years ago. He doesn't recognise you, because he never got to know the guy his daughter fell in love with, i.e. the practical one.

When he claims to have been a cartographer and killed by Shadows, he is hiding from you the fact that he is the original incarnation - he was lying. He later reveals the truth and tells you that Ravel was the one who killed him (see above).

No, I don't think he's lying. I think his the first incarnation, the one that stood up after Ravel has killed the original one. And the first who had no memory, because the original one's mortality with all his knowledge went away. But he knows about the original one, because he could tap into the sensate-stone, which seemed to be around when Ravel kille the original one. And when you merge with the good incarnation, you don't know your name and the stroy about the original one. The memories of the original one are in the sensate stone which gives you also your name.

Good Incarnation: "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."
So, he was the first incarnation, but not the original one. He started to redeem himself with the knowledge of the original one as kartographer. The unforseen problem with the mortality absorbing the memomory, therefore creating incarnations with questionable character and no clue about anything, did cross the redeem plan and made to a failure.

ArrynMorgerim

Fri, 6th Feb '04, 10:36pm

Anyway I'm plaing it right now and it's pretty clear, that practical incarnation lived a long "life", that he died only a few years ago (probably same as Deionarra) and then came paranoid one, which could be even the one killde in the alley.

Lazy Bonzo

Fri, 6th Feb '04, 11:21pm

And the transcedentend one is also tight to the shadows that follow you. The maybe bring you to him ? Well the trandescendent one is tied to the shadows in the same way as you are to them; on account of TTO being the separated mortality of TNO. As I understand it the shadows are all the previous incarnations that have died. However I'm sure Platter will be able to produce a quote to support or discard this claim of mine.

Rastor

Sun, 8th Feb '04, 1:52am

The shadows are the spirits of those that have died in TNO's place.

Platter

Sun, 8th Feb '04, 4:31am

As I understand it the shadows are all the previous incarnations that have died. However I'm sure Platter will be able to produce a quote to support or discard this claim of mine.---
Nameless: "Who am I?"
(snip)
Pillar of Skulls: "NOT *WHO* -- WHAT. YOU HAVE BEEN DIVIDED. YOU ARE ONE OF MANY MEN -- ONE IN MANY MEN. EACH ONE -- WHETHER GOOD OR EVIL -- A MONSTER, WHO CASTS A SHADOW UPON EXISTENCE."
Nameless: "A... shadow upon existence?"
Pillar of Skulls: "OH, YES." The pillar's heads narrow their eyes and smile grotesquely. "EACH TIME YOU DIE, 'IMMORTAL,' YOU CAST A SHADOW... EACH TIME YOU DIE, *ANOTHER* DIES IN YOUR STEAD. THESE SHADOWS... THEY GATHER, HUNGERING FOR YOU, WITHIN THE FORTRESS OF REGRETS. HOW MANY TIMES *HAVE* YOU PERISHED, NAMELESS ONE? HOW MANY HUNDREDS... THOUSANDS... HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF *YOU?*" The pillar trembles with wicked glee; its heads pull faces and gurgle mockingly at you.
(Journal Entry: "The Pillar of Skulls told me that I cast 'shadows on existence' -- that each time I die, another dies in my stead. Those who die in such a manner then become creatures of shadow, and apparently gather and wait for me at the Fortress of Regrets.")
---
Vhailor: *Have you ever MURDERED another?*
Nameless: Truth: "Vhailor, I think I am responsible for the deaths of thousands... perhaps many thousands... across the Planes. The Pillar of Skulls has said that whenever I die, another dies in my place."
---
Nameless: "How did you die?"
Good Incarnation: "In the end, as I traveled upon the fields of Bytopia, terrible shadows took on life as I lay sleeping. I died as I felt their claws upon me."
Nameless: "They are the shades of all those that died in our place."
Good Incarnation: The man looks pained. "Yes, I know... I know that now. One cannot be in this place of regrets and not feel their agony."
---
Anyway I'm plaing it right now and it's pretty clear, that practical incarnation lived a long "life", that he died only a few years ago (probably same as Deionarra) and then came paranoid one, which could be even the one killde in the alley.It's pretty clear, eh? Then explain the fact that the Paranoid Incarnation killed Finam's father 50 years ago.

Finam: Finam nods. "Strangled, he was. He had left to tutor someone - he taught various languages to supplement his research income - and was discovered dead in a side-chamber of the Civic Festhall. The killer was never found. This was some... oh... perhaps fifty years ago, now. I was but a child."

[ February 08, 2004, 04:53: Message edited by: Platter ]

ArrynMorgerim

Sun, 8th Feb '04, 11:12pm

Now this is a mess. I don't want to blame the story writer, but it seemed to me quite often it's not particularly coordinated(?).
But it seems I was mistaken. I somehow did not noticed that. Sorry.

P.S. Explain to me this then:
Paranoid incarnation noted in his journal, which he wrote 50 years ago (according to Finam), that he was haunted by Deionarra (in fact he's not specific!), who was lured to death by practical incarnation only a few years ago (according to her father)! No solution here, I think (except for time non-linearity or how it's in English)...

Btw, PST is a bloody good story anyway. It's better than most fantasy books to be sure.

Platter

Mon, 9th Feb '04, 3:43am

^ We never learn when Deionarra went to the Fortress and died, the only time frame Iannis gives is "not long ago" and "some time ago", which still doesn't fit.

He only looses his memory when his mortality comes into play. The first dead, as the mortality was separated. And every other dead when the transcedent one has something to do with it.You can get killed in the game by Shadows (which are sent by TTO) without loosing your memories. So I don't think that has anything to do with it.

And the transcedentend one is also tight to the shadows that follow you. The maybe bring you to him ?I'm sure Morte would have noticed something like that. And Annah found your body in the same Alley that you have the flashback of dying in.

Yes that's true either. The problem is, that the crazy one wasn't the first crazy incarnation. There are many and least one who left the message for you by the mother of the seer in the upper district. Which was, according to the description of her mother crazy.So maybe that was the same one. We already know that the crazy incarnation we meet in the Fortress was alive 50 years ago (see Finam quote above).

It must have been 4 years ago.Why?

And she also says, that here eyes have already gone bad, at the time she saw you last. In the meantime it got worse.Yea, she could have been middle-aged back then and it would still be reasonable for her to have bad eyesight.

Deionarras father, the lawyer, says that his daughter disappeared four years ago.But he doesn't ever say this.

No, I don't think he's lying. I think his the first incarnation, the one that stood up after Ravel has killed the original one.But in that story, he says he is killed by Shadows. There would have only been one Shadow if he was the first incarnation after the original one. And it is the absorption of this incarnation which allows you to use the Bronze Sphere. Besides, that theory is just a completely ridiculous interpretation and the BIGGEST stretch EVER considering the wording of the conversation. Come on, you have to admit it.

Nameless: "So, is it possible that the first of us - the real one of us, before all the incarnations, might still be buried somewhere in my mind."
Good Incarnation: The expression on the incarnation's face flickers for just a moment, but it is like a window, and you suddenly realize who it is you are speaking to.
Nameless: "*You* were the first of us."
Good Incarnation: The incarnation's eyes take on a haunted look, and his gaze turns away from yours. "I know what you are thinking - but it is not the case. You think that knowing the mind of the first of us will somehow help you here, in this place. It will not."
Nameless: "But why - I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?"
Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
Nameless: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."
"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

After having read that, you're trying to say he is not the original, mortal incarnation? Biggest. Stretch. Ever.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:34: Message edited by: Platter ]

Iago

Mon, 9th Feb '04, 1:57pm

We never learn when Deionarra went to the Fortress and died, the only time frame Iannis gives is "not long ago" and "some time ago", which still doesn't fit.

He says it when you get the testament of the daughter. I am quite sure about that. Four years, I wonder where I'd get that number from then.

So maybe that was the same one. We already know that the crazy incarnation we meet in the Fortress was alive 50 years ago (see Finam quote above).
Well, yes. I posted before that the timeframes are confusing and contradicting. I took the seer as time-frame. The message you get from her is very old, but seems to be from the crazy one. Which did puzzle me quite a bit, as it clearly didn't fit in the time-frame as I was playing.

Nameless: "So, is it possible that the first of us - the real one of us, before all the incarnations, might still be buried somewhere in my mind."
Good Incarnation: The expression on the incarnation's face flickers for just a moment, but it is like a window, and you suddenly realize who it is you are speaking to.
Nameless: "*You* were the first of us."
Good Incarnation: The incarnation's eyes take on a haunted look, and his gaze turns away from yours. "I know what you are thinking - but it is not the case. You think that knowing the mind of the first of us will somehow help you here, in this place. It will not."
Nameless: "But why - I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?"
Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
Nameless: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."
"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

After having read that, you're trying to say he is not the original, mortal incarnation? Biggest. Stretch. Ever.

Well, I acutally have read "that" and was pretty sure, that the good one wasn't the original one. So, but after reading this quote, I am a little bit shaken in my opinion. There would be an possible explanation, that the texts may differe a little bit, as I use a localized version. Anyway, I am not doubting the accuracy of your quotes. But I have to read them again in my game, to see if I erred while playing or if there are some quotes missing or different.

Particularly to get the exact quote of the lawyer about his daughter. Therefore I have to check my savegames. This will take some time, till I get to it.

Platter

Mon, 9th Feb '04, 7:45pm

Ah, that may be the problem. I can assure you my quotes are 100% exactly as the text is in the English (North American) version, which is the original version of the game (it's not localized).

ArrynMorgerim

Tue, 10th Feb '04, 11:58pm

From the incarnations dialogues it seems that the practical was the first in the fortress, left Deionarra to die (she was there with him), and was killed as well.
The paranoid one confirms that he was "haunted" by Deionarra.
The practical also mentions that paranoid kept destroying clues he put for future incarnations, should he fail.

The date (50 years ago) of Finam's murder (which is the paranoid's work) seems t be mistake then. I think they had many versions and segmnets of the story and they didn't noticed some contradictions in the final version.

Platter

Wed, 11th Feb '04, 3:09am

Don't forget that Aelwyn met an incarnation matching the description of the Paranoid Incarnation "perhaps no more than fifty years ago."

Also, Hamrys was a child when the Practical Incarnation had Hamrys' father build the tomb, and the Practical Incarnation also says it was shortly after the tomb was built that he decided to go to the Fortress ("It was shortly after the failure of that that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."). (Though you might be inclined to believe he was planning for 50+ years before he actually left.)

When you get the key to your room in the Festhall which belonged to the Paranoid Incarnation, the clerk says "The easternmost chamber's been waiting quite some time for your return." and "My ledger indicates that this is your key, sir, and has been for a good, long time."

So you can't just ignore the Finam part and have it all fit, because these other points fit with the Finam timeline.

IMO, if there is any one person you can ignore to make the most coherent timeline, it's Iannis. And he doesn't even give specific times anyway.

[ February 11, 2004, 03:33: Message edited by: Platter ]

ArrynMorgerim

Wed, 11th Feb '04, 9:21pm

You are right, there are far more contradictions than just Finam. The scroll from the fortune-teller is 50 years old as well, and it quite matches paranoid's style (words in capitals, body-theft-acusations).
But to me the confrontation of practical and paranoid incarnation about Deionarra (together with the female ghost entry in dodecadheron journal) are strong enough arguments to say practical incarnation lived before paranoid, but not a long ago or few years ago (according to Iannis). Paranoid's datation (which is always 50 years ago, iirc) must be wrong, then, or they simply made a mistake when writing about Deionarra's ghost troubling paranoid incarnation.
If that was right (nobody ever said that paranoid incarnation made it to fortress of regrets) then practical is much more old, as it imrpisoned Vhailor, gave Dakkon UCoZ and got Morte. But practical incarnation talked Pharod into searching for the bronze sphere and he shouldn't have been very young at that time...
Now I really don't believe there can be some straight timeline.

[ February 11, 2004, 21:34: Message edited by: ArrynMorgerim ]

Rastor

Thu, 12th Feb '04, 1:34am

I was under the impression that Practical made the dodecahedron, in which case he was the one that killed Finam, not Paranoid.

IIRC, the Practical was actually the one that was a member of the Sensates (with Deionarra) and he was therefore the one that left everything in 'your' room, including the journal and spell scrolls.

ejsmith

Thu, 12th Feb '04, 5:37am

There's the room with the dodekahedron, but then there's the sensate stone. And if practical had run into that, would he have escaped? And not destroyed it? And would the stone have remembered that someone had already been there before you?

The stone and the room stash and Fenham's death. All those together cause problems with the chronology. It could have been anyone, just a Joe Schmoe, killed in the alley. And I seriously don't think it would have been paranoid that had said "I'd like a boon, please."

I wish the BIS (ex, that is) designers would release a chronology, with all the events that you find in the game, listed...

Morgoroth

Thu, 12th Feb '04, 11:40pm

You can get killed in the game by Shadows (which are sent by TTO) without loosing your memories. So I don't think that has anything to do with it. And I thought that every time TNO got killed he lost his memories but in the game he has his journal with him which helps him to regain those memories fast, is it proven somewhere in the game that TNO doesn't loose his memories allways when he dies?

ejsmith

Fri, 13th Feb '04, 4:09am

I think it's paranoid that finds out after "three more incarnations", you'll get to keep your memories.

Or, it would seem, all of your memories return to you. Which is kind of convienient, what with you being that third incarnation and all. Which brings me back to the timeline thing. Pardon me if it's been run into the dirt, 6x10^8 times.

Incarnation was 50 years ago, and that's by that language instructor's death. Dionerra died sometime in-between that time, which I was thinking like 5 years ago or something. Whenever, that was during practical's reign. I kind of wonder if, in fact, it was practical that died in the Alley (HEH! I made a funny!! I rule!!!). He's the kind of guy that would wipe out a bunch of people, and ask Pharod to keep his body intact. And he may have returned from the Fortress, and disbanded from Dakon and the blind-archer guy. Which means, Dakon wouldn't have seen the archer die, so he might very well not recognize him.

But the archer's been dead for *quite* some time, I thought, simply from the description of his zombie.

It's the timeline that screws me up the most. And (to be honest), I think there's just one single change in all of this that would set everything right, and it was just an oversight on the QA.

Platter

Fri, 13th Feb '04, 9:05am

^ As has been proven multiple times and ways in this thread, we know the Practical Incarnation was before the Paranoid Incarnation, no matter how you look at it.

I was under the impression that Practical made the dodecahedron, in which case he was the one that killed Finam, not Paranoid.A simple skimming of the journal to see how it's written with frequent CAPS and in a paranoid, crazy manner makes it obvious which incarnation it's from, even before looking at the rest of the facts, such as; Which incarnation can you speak to in Uyo in the Fortress? Or this from the trap Sensory Stone;

Nameless: "Did you create that trapped dodecahedron?"
Paranoid Incarnation: "I don't know what you're babbling about. Heh. Heh-heh. All right, it WAS me. BRILLIANT, wasn't it? Did you PLAY with it a bit? Lose a FINGER or an EYE, I hope?" He chortles merrily.
Nameless: "Clever, but I opened and read the thing just the same."
Paranoid Incarnation: Your earlier incarnation looks horrified. "NO! NO! NO! IMPOSSIBLE! No one reads the language it was a written in; I slew the ONE man who understood it after he had TAUGHT me. DEAD language, DEAD linguist... a match made in Death's halls."

This could go on and on, because nearly every entry in that journal is proof that it was the Paranoid Incarnation and not the Practical Incarnation. We might as well be arguing whether or not Annah has a tail.

This thread is going no where. None of you seem to remember a damn thing from the game. :p
Don't get me wrong, I know I'm a freak who knows far more about the game than is healthy, but some of the things you guys are saying... bleh.

[ February 13, 2004, 09:21: Message edited by: Platter ]

ArrynMorgerim

Fri, 13th Feb '04, 11:41pm

As someone said before, there can not be two skies and Planescape: Torment chronology.

P.S. That thing about Paranoid I. having been said he would keep his memories only after three more deaths was probably refering to his state that time, or was just a prophecy saying whatever event makes TNO lose memories is coming.

BTW, Do someone remember what is the outcome of Nordom's analysis (or Grace's) of TNO's condition? Either there is nothing their witts can discover or I have missed something.

Platter

Sat, 14th Feb '04, 4:09am

^ There is a bug that prevents that discussion with Nordom from continuing, causing a whole chunk of dialog to be inaccessible. This is fixed by the Fix Pack.

You were supposed to be able to mention a few new bits of info to him in that conversation as you came across it, like after talking to Ravel, the Pillar, Trias, etc. like you can with Grace.

But there really is no final conclusion to their 'analysis' in the end. Those conversations are really just to get together the information you already know.

P.S. That thing about Paranoid I. having been said he would keep his memories only after three more deaths was probably refering to his state that time, or was just a prophecy saying whatever event makes TNO lose memories is coming.A prophecy about when TNO will "gain the benefit of keeping [his] memories" to you is saying "whatever event makes TNO lose memories is coming"? Ok...

[ February 14, 2004, 04:24: Message edited by: Platter ]

ArrynMorgerim

Sun, 15th Feb '04, 12:13am

Having played with Near Infinity and Inf. Explorer , I found an unimplemented quest in Torment. I think it was intended to hint on TNO's past.

Remember Ratbone? This fellow has dialog file DR_BONE.DLG which gives him right to say something about Sharegrave and train you as a thief. However, there is another unused (I think) dialog - DRATBONE.DLG (also seems to me to be the original version - look at the filenames). In this file you can talk him to answer your questions, then he hints at something weird about a collector and some "Rake". He wants you to give him 5 cranium rat tails and then says that the collector is always near the Rake, who is skilled warrior (no matter). He also saw that collector speak with an Erynie (a baatezu fiend). You can present this information to the two fiends in Smoldering Corpse bar and they will tell you that the collector is another cursed erynie.

Now it becomes interesting, because they want you to get a pendant from the "collector". You are to find the Rake and collector (ADYZOEL.CRE and RKCHSR.CRE(?)), but they don't seem to have scripts and therefore don't spawn. You can however read their dialogues. When you deal with them, you discover that the PENDANT OF YEMETH is device to absorb souls from dying beings:

Rake Chaser: "It was commissioned by a mortal sorcerer of no small power, Yemeth. He sought immortality, but the idea of lichdom repulsed him. According to his journals, his studies of necromancy's darkest lore inspired the device's construction. With it, he could capture souls and use their essences to prolong his own existence, fueling his life force even as it waned."

TNO: "How did Yemeth lose the pendant?"

Rake Chaser: "He was destroyed utterly in a cataclysmic magical battle, most likely with a rival mage of power... supposedly, there was nothing left of him for the device's energies to power. The pendant itself changed hands time and again over the centuries, until I came to possess it."
(DRKCHSR2.DLG)

Okay, now why I post this. The name of Yemeth is referenced in your Journals (dodecaderon and tomb) and by pillar of skulls.

"So they said - You have been divided. You are one of many men. You bear many names, and each has left their scars on your flesh.

LOST ONE... IMMORTAL ONE... INCARNATION'S END... MAN OF A THOUSAND DEATHS... THE ONE DOOMED TO LIFE... RESTLESS ONE... ONE OF MANY... THE ONE WHOM LIFE HOLDS PRISONER... THE BRINGER OF SHADOWS... THE WOUNDED ONE... MISERY-BRINGER... YEMETH...

I grow weary."
(Drowned Nations tomb journal, middle part in caps also dodecaderon journal and pillar of skulls)

What of it? I don't think TNO was Yemeth, because the rest of the game doesn't fit this. However, they might have meant this to be his secret in some early stages of storywriting, abandoning this ending later. Therefore TNO's: That was it? refering to his remembered name.
Later they realized it's better if TNO's name stays mystery to us (so that we could wonder about Vecna). That can also be the reason why was the quest never finished.

(Edit: Not particularly new revelation, I discovered. At least I did not say "TNO is Y!")

Anyway, perhaps we can find more "developer's teories"...

[ February 15, 2004, 01:29: Message edited by: ArrynMorgerim ]

Platter

Sun, 15th Feb '04, 4:03am

Yup, that quest was abandoned fairly early in the development of the game. As you probably know, here are the interesting files relating to it;
SKULPEND.ITM
DRATBONE.DLG
DRKCHSR.DLG
DRKCHSR2.DLG
DADYZOEL.DLG
(DAETHEL.DLG & DTEGARIN.DLG)

1. "We intended that the Nameless One's real, true, first name would never
be revealed in the game, since anyone playing the game could imagine a
much better name than any dumb name we could come up with. While it is
possible that the NO was once named Yemeth during one of his
incarnations, Yemeth is not his real, true, first name.

Hope this helps,

Chris Avellone"
source (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=11&thl=1181802395,1181381514,1182629948,1182619145,11 83358329,1183260543,1183006343,1182937611,11829334 48,1181019694,1180994345,1180990953&seekm=10f03266.0208231303.520e4cac%40posting.googl e.com#link19)

2. "The Nameless One is not Zerthimon, and the Nameless One's "true name" is never revealed in the game - even I don't know who he truly is.

Hope this helps,

Chris"
source (http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=22459#429412)

3. "In any case, I don't know TNO's true name; as I understand it (and as Chris stated), it doesn't exist in any official capacity (and as such it certainly isn't Adahn, Yemeth, etc.).

Really.

-- Dave"
source (http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=22459#442716)

ArrynMorgerim

Sun, 15th Feb '04, 11:59pm

Yeah, I've read much of this yesterday, because I felt guilty for posting here something that has been annoying people two years ago.

It's wonderful to get the insight into the boiling pot of a story so complex. All these behind-the-scenes legends quite add flavor.

Btw, your Torment Crap site is excellent.

Platter

Tue, 17th Feb '04, 3:04am

Thank you. :)

SleepleSS

Fri, 27th Feb '04, 11:28pm

I still think the thruth is that he has no name and was Nameless all the time... I shall read all the posts I missed when I find some free time :)

ejsmith

Sat, 28th Feb '04, 12:21am

Interesting. I shall have to think upon all this...

Runehawk

Thu, 22nd Jul '04, 6:33am

All very interesting possibilities raised.

I've just finished PST for the first time but i did it without the patchs and i was romancing Grace and nothing happened so while i enjoyed the story some elements i'll have to patch b4 REALLY enjoying it.

I know that there are a lot of incongruities and stuff thrown in for the sake of effect and drama for the story so they don't bother me too bad. pretty much agree with what everyone says.

I'd like to add another possibilty that never came up in this thread though.
In the smouldering cauldron or whatever that inn is called. A chap raises the possibility that another person could be yr Journal. and considering how Morte has been around with me. I sorta consider him an unreliable journal. and well what with him being a habitual liar and all. I don't think morte is his real name. I think that that's possibly yr name.
The name you/orhim put on yr "journal".. an unearned name but with hints of future tragedy on it. Perfectly dramatic

The "adahn" and "One" are pretty good alternatives.
All in all, TNO's name will always be a matter of speculation. That's the mystery and the FUN about it and yes. If i was the gm who wrote the story. I WOULD allow him to find his name but keep it a secret from the player and never name him myself. It would spoil the essence of TNO.

Good hunting
Runehawk