Prisons in America and elsewhere.

[AMaster]

Forget 'modern statistics', we have a modern case study: Portugal.

Short version: decriminalization am good, it am.

[Déise]

Just to even things up a bit for the prison population. One whacko tries to attack a guard and gets mobbed by the other inmates. The first punch is .

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

That was awesome! It's like WWE - the first inmate to arrive gives the attack a flying clothesline!

[T2Bruno]

You should reads the article about the "heroes"...

Inmates Save Deputy's Life

The detention deputy was sitting at his desk when the inmate attacked. The deputy is 64; the inmate 40 years his junior.

Deputy Kenneth Moon had another disadvantage: He was the sole deputy in a jail pod that houses 62 inmates. The only nearby people who could help him were there because they have been charged with attempted murder, home invasion, drug dealing.

And yet they did.

The first one, Jerry Dieguez Jr., is in jail on an armed home invasion charge. When he saw inmate Douglas Burden put Moon in a chokehold, Dieguez didn't hesitate.

He ran behind the desk and landed a haymaker of a punch on Burden.

Inmates Hoang Vu and Terrell Carswell also provided backup. Vu is charged with attempted murder; Carswell with robbery, marijuana possession, cocaine trafficking and failure to register as a sex offender. He also has a charge of obstructing an officer.

While Dieguez, Vu and Carswell kept Burden off the deputy, another inmate came charging over.

David Schofield, who's in jail on aggravated assault and battery charges, reached over to the deputy, took his radio and called for help.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Do you think that will give them some leniency when up for parole? I do.

[LKD]

It should give them some leniency -- evil acts should be punished, but good acts should also be rewarded.

[NOG (No Other Gods)]

Likely special priveledges as well, if they don't already have them.

It's kind of sad how single-tierred our corrections system is, though. It's prison or basically nothing, and once in prison there isn't much worse that can be done, except more prison.

[Déise]

Yeah, I knew what they did but I think it shows that prisoners aren't no hopers. Once people have served their time they should be given the chance to turn their life around.

In the article I read (can't remember where) a lot was made of the fact that the warden was a good guy and popular with the prisoners (maybe not the assailant). I don't think prisoners should be treated too nicely but I wouldn't make their regime overly harsh either as standard. They need an expectation from society that they'll be treated decently.

[Muffildy]

I dont believe prison helps either society or the prisoners themselves. For society, it is costing the public probably a lot more in taxes than is stolen by the few drug addicts or whatnot.
My solution is simple, though probably not very politically correct - give all prisoners a job to do....put them into the military and send them to someplace else. If they desert then they wont be our problem anymore. If they dont then they will be providing a valuable service in defending our country. Of course there is the possibility that they go berserk and kill their fellow soldiers, but if theyre all prisoners as well then i doubt too many people will cry over it.

[NOG (No Other Gods)]

That does generally lead to the problem of a piss-poor army, though. I mean, not only are they not well motivated, but they're also likely to be terribly undisciplined. Imagine if the army we sent into Iraq had been mainly populated by rapists, drug addicts, and murderers! It was bad enough as it was.

[T2Bruno]

Well, Muffildy, I can tell you know very little about what it takes to be in the military or about the humanitarian services they do throughout the world.

[Ragusa]

Muffildy
I guess you can use criminals in an army, but the discipline needs to be draconian, considering that it starts with coercion to begin with. That would be against the American tradition, and probably require disciplinary procedures and techniques that would violate human rights. Oh yes, and then you'd need to find officers tough enough to lead such scum bags and who dare face them when armed (soldiers get arms, you know) and dare turn their back on them, unafraid to get 'fragged'.

T2 is right that you apparently have an uninformed view on the matter.

On the other hands, I read that it isn't that unusual in the US for young troubled persons to be given a choice between joining the army and going to jail, provided their offences aren't of a serious enough nature to mandate punishment. I agree that serving in the military can be an empowering thing. Then, there is a problem of gangs sending people to the military to 'learn skills' or others who sign up to hide from prosecution (as an alternative to hide in jail for a lesser offence to ride out the search for the culprit for a greater offence). There is gang activity. That is seen as a problem by the army.

[LKD]

You know, I have a simple solution for people who don't like the conditions in prisons. Here it is -- it's mind boggling -- brace yourself for a really novel concept here:

don't commit crimes.

Wow! I mean, what a frigging concept! And all the horse puckey about "oh, the poor are forced into it" is just so much enabling garbage. I know plenty of poor people who don't commit crimes. I've had really, truly rotten days, and I didn't commit any crimes. There is no excuse for committing crimes -- end of story. If there are extenuating circumstances, then there are plenty of bleeding hearts who will champion your cause and get you off the hook. But I find that most "extenuating circumstances" tend to be "I was in the middle of committing a minor felony and was 'forced to' commit a major one." No sympathy from me on that one.

The same thing goes for the wrongful conviction argument. Most of the people whose stories I've heard were admitted criminals who ended up getting convicted for something they didn't do, yet they freely admit to drug dealing, assault, and other crimes. My answer is if the bastard had been living a decent, law-abiding life in the first place, he's never have gotten such a crap reputation in the first place and it wouldn't have happened to him*.

Bottom line, if prisoners put half as much energy into acting like decent human beings and following basic rules of civil conduct as they did about whining about how the government isn't treating them fairly, they wouldn't have to worry about getting raped in the showers, because they wouldn't be in jail.

*hostility aside, once they are there, I want to re-iterate my point that the government should keep them locked away in an 8 x 8 cell so they can neither hurt others nor be hurt by them.

[Ragusa]

I have to vehemently disagree, LKD.

I find that the recommendation 'don't commit crimes' in particular in a context of prison rape is not exactly ... helpful. It is eventually tantamount to suggesting to a female rape victim that being raped is her own damn fault, after all she foolishly exposed herself to a rapist - which then manifested itself in the rape. Everybody hates rapists. As long as they rape woman and children. But as soon as it's about a male victim, and in jail, it's a good joke? Not!

For that matter, it is utterly irrelevant whether said male victim then is a criminal or not. As I said earlier, prisons are not places where the law doesn't apply, and interaction between criminals and prison inmates are not relations in which the law doesn't apply - if that was so mobsters murdering mobsters would not commit crimes because, after all, it's criminals interacting with criminals. And prisons are also not places where the state merely locks away 'bad guys' and 'throws away the key'. They're places where bad guys live under the rule of law that after all put them there, and that includes them not committing crimes against each other.

[Muffildy]

The point of putting them into the military is that i dont believe they have 'what it takes' and so when they get sent into action they can be the guys who do the stupid things and so are killed thereby saving tax payers the cost of prisons as well as allowing the good soldiers who are disciplined to then atleast know where the enemy is since they just shot the decoys.
Barring that, and they do actually survive, then one would hope that the process of going through the training and the field action would make them better people.
That all being said, there are some people i dont believe are suitable candidates for a tour of duty - ie any criminals who are insane or really really sick. But your run of the mill convenience store robber turned murderer might make a good soldier...or decoy.

[NOG (No Other Gods)]

That may (and that's a serious may) work in trench warfare, but in modern warfare it's a recipe for disaster (and fiasco). That being said, I believe one of the punishments in Rome was a mandatory term in the military. Usually on the front lines.

[AMaster]

And lord knows Rome's is an example we want to emulate. Let's see, first we can get so obsessed about conquest for the sake of enrichment of the Senate that the military transforms our imperial republic into a straight empire. Then we can fail epically and collapse. Along the way we can crucify many thousands of people, including--allegedly--God.

It'll be great. Who wants to go first?

LKD: "if you aren't guilty you have nothing to worry about" is a terrible argument.

[Déise]

How many of us are from countries that have fought a proper war recently anyway? Don't mind the marketing, Iraq and Afghanistan aren't wars in the traditional sense. The actual war part against the foreign country lasted a few days in each case. Everything since then has been the army acting as policeman. Yeah, the crime rate is a bit higher than Delaware but that's basically what they're doing. Their job is to get on with the local community and treat them with respect and get their support for the nation building. Would you feel ok if Canada and Mexico sent their rapists and murderers to be America's policemen?

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Originally Posted by LKD

You know, I have a simple solution for people who don't like the conditions in prisons. Here it is -- it's mind boggling -- brace yourself for a really novel concept here:

don't commit crimes.

Wow! I mean, what a frigging concept! And all the horse puckey about "oh, the poor are forced into it" is just so much enabling garbage. I know plenty of poor people who don't commit crimes. I've had really, truly rotten days, and I didn't commit any crimes. There is no excuse for committing crimes -- end of story. If there are extenuating circumstances, then there are plenty of bleeding hearts who will champion your cause and get you off the hook. But I find that most "extenuating circumstances" tend to be "I was in the middle of committing a minor felony and was 'forced to' commit a major one." No sympathy from me on that one.

The same thing goes for the wrongful conviction argument. Most of the people whose stories I've heard were admitted criminals who ended up getting convicted for something they didn't do, yet they freely admit to drug dealing, assault, and other crimes. My answer is if the bastard had been living a decent, law-abiding life in the first place, he's never have gotten such a crap reputation in the first place and it wouldn't have happened to him*.

Bottom line, if prisoners put half as much energy into acting like decent human beings and following basic rules of civil conduct as they did about whining about how the government isn't treating them fairly, they wouldn't have to worry about getting raped in the showers, because they wouldn't be in jail.

*hostility aside, once they are there, I want to re-iterate my point that the government should keep them locked away in an 8 x 8 cell so they can neither hurt others nor be hurt by them.

Most importantly because as a civilised society we regard there as being certain minimun standards by which other human beings should be treated. The fact that others fail to uphold these standards should in no way compromise our determination to maintain our standards for all, including those who have failed.

More practically, there is a need for a balance. Prison must be a deterrent. I don't agree with some of their conditions. On the other hand, casting prisoners aside from society may harden their attitudes completely and cause them to lose all empathy. If they are forced to live according to a savage law of the jungle then they may do the same when they are outside. Indeed they may only be able to. Prisons can be wonderful training grounds for criminals. Different prisoners will respond differently. A hardened gang member might not be too bothered, he can look after himself. Middle class people in on white collar crime or such may be terrified out of their lives and completely unable to fend for themselves.

[NOG (No Other Gods)]

Deise, unfortunately that's becoming the form of modern warfare more and more, especially where the US is concerned (who's stupid enough to really challenge us on open ground when they have a choice, after all). And yes, it is yet more reason not to use the army as a substitute for prison. It can work wonders for the misbehaving youths, because often they just need strict discipline and a sense of self esteem and teamwork, and if there's anything the Army is good at, it's those. Grown men, though, it's a little late for.

[Caradhras]

Originally Posted by Ragusa

Muffildy
I guess you can use criminals in an army, but the discipline needs to be draconian, considering that it starts with coercion to begin with. That would be against the American tradition, and probably require disciplinary procedures and techniques that would violate human rights. Oh yes, and then you'd need to find officers tough enough to lead such scum bags and who dare face them when armed (soldiers get arms, you know) and dare turn their back on them, unafraid to get 'fragged'.

T2 is right that you apparently have an uninformed view on the matter.

I think T2's reply was very good indeed.

I know of one example of an elite corps that would come close to that description and that is the French Foreign Legion. I'm not saying that all the recruits have a criminal past but you have to be an outcast to enlist. For instance after WW2, Germans constituted almost two thirds of the Legion.

That being said you have to take into account that beyond the myth there is the reality of a very severe training and a long military tradition focused on creating cohesion between individuals coming from many different cultures and countries.

You can't seriously expect criminals to become real soldiers as being a soldier requires many qualities that are directly opposed to criminal behaviour.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by NOG (No Other Gods)

I believe one of the punishments in Rome was a mandatory term in the military. Usually on the front lines.

I'm not sure about a punishment, but I am certain that if you lived in a territory that was captured by the Roman empire, the only way you could become a Roman citizen is if you served in the military. You had to serve 20 years, and if you miraculously survived, you became a Roman citizen.

[Equester]

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

I'm not sure about a punishment, but I am certain that if you lived in a territory that was captured by the Roman empire, the only way you could become a Roman citizen is if you served in the military. You had to serve 20 years, and if you miraculously survived, you became a Roman citizen.

Actually that is not at all true, there where multiple ways off becoming a roman citizen. being rich enough and bribing a prokonsul was probably the easiest. Serving in the military and being given it as a reward was fairly normal, the problem was, there wasn't any law sating how long you should serve or even guarentying it.

getting your hometown turned into a roman town, this one was a bit tricky, but basically for most of the time, the roman empire worked with three types of towns, the foreigners, the ones with latin rights and the one with roman rights.

the last way I can think of right now, was trough slavery. by selling yourself as a slave and at some point being fried, you gained roman rights and your children would be fully roman.

[LKD]

Originally Posted by Ragusa

I have to vehemently disagree, LKD.

I find that the recommendation 'don't commit crimes' in particular in a context of prison rape is not exactly ... helpful. It is eventually tantamount to suggesting to a female rape victim that being raped is her own damn fault, after all she foolishly exposed herself to a rapist - which then manifested itself in the rape. Everybody hates rapists. As long as they rape woman and children. But as soon as it's about a male victim, and in jail, it's a good joke? Not!

For that matter, it is utterly irrelevant whether said male victim then is a criminal or not. As I said earlier, prisons are not places where the law doesn't apply, and interaction between criminals and prison inmates are not relations in which the law doesn't apply - if that was so mobsters murdering mobsters would not commit crimes because, after all, it's criminals interacting with criminals. And prisons are also not places where the state merely locks away 'bad guys' and 'throws away the key'. They're places where bad guys live under the rule of law that after all put them there, and that includes them not committing crimes against each other.

In an ideal world, you are right, Ragusa -- as I mentioned, much more should be done to keep prisoners from hurting each other, but it is not a perfect world. Do-gooders like the John Howard Society and its ilk, in there efforts to make prisons some sort of rehabilitative Nirvana, have actually made things worse by increasing the amount of mingling that is done by prisoners, thereby exposing many prisoners to abuse. Their utter stupidity on believing that vicious criminals will suddenly start behaving like little angels behind prison walls has resulted in many rapes and assaults that would not have occurred in a prison under serious isolation standards.

By the by, the report you posted implied that while American prisons were the ones studied, there was no evidence that prisons elsewhere in the world were any better. Why is that relevant? Because to me it shows a universal problem, and one that merits some common sense responses.

By this I mean a person who is considering committing a crime must think that while it is not fair that rapes and assaults occur in prisons, the cold, hard fact is that they do, and he should take that fact into account.

You pulled out the whole "women deserving to be raped" argument, the one designed to make common sense advice into "blaming the victim". To use an exaggeration, if a woman walks buck naked into a Hell's Angels bar and shouts "nobody knows where I am and so if anything bad happens to me, the perpetrators will never get caught!" she still does not deserve to get raped -- no one I have ever spoken to thinks that. What I DO say is that she is gonna get raped, and that she should have taken some common sense precautions against that rape. More realistically, women should avoid unlit, deserted areas late at night, and should take other precautions as well. Saying that categorically does not mean that women who fail to take those precautions deserve what happens to them.

Which brings us back to the criminals. Prisoners should not be subject to this sort of thing. But they are. Knowing that, people should be obedient to the law and thereby avoid prison. That's not rocket science. I've been tempted in my life to do some pretty horrible, illegal things, but the knowledge of what would happen to me behind bars was a factor in my exercise of self control.

The problem I see is that many people have no respect for the law, violate the rights of others, and then are utterly flabbergasted when they end up actually suffering consequences for their crimes and have their own rights violated. The consequences might not fit the crime (ie -- rape is neither just nor proportionate) but the consequence is there. Avoiding unpleasant consequences by making good choices is always "helpful", in my opinion.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by LKD

The problem I see is that many people have no respect for the law, violate the rights of others, and then are utterly flabbergasted when they end up actually suffering consequences for their crimes and have their own rights violated.

Dude, it's not just their rights that are being violated. I mean they are actually being violated! Getting F'd in the butt is a bit more than simply "disproportionate".

[LKD]

I know that, Aldeth, and I totally agree -- I was trying to avoid the overly dramatic hyperbole that I am often prone to falling into.

Please don't get me wrong -- I am not minimizing the seriousness of prison rape, or any rape for that matter. The Golden Rule makes me put myself in their position -- would I want this done to me? The answer is obviously a big "NO".

That said, though, once I do that, I also say "how can I -- or anyone -- avoid this awful fate?" And the answer is clear -- don't commit crimes. Be a decent citizen. Respect the rights of others in your private conduct. Show respect for laws.