Coach/Teacher Fired for Unmarried Pregnancy - Page 2

Morgoroth · Mon, 16th Apr '12, 9:48pm

Quote:

Point being: Ordinary employment contract law does not apply to these cases, that is why your comparison, how ever correct generally, doesn't fly here. You get into serious freedom of religion issues if you ignore that.

Depends really on what laws you have to go on. Being a priest and being a teacher in athletics aren't the same thing, not even close. I can sort of sympathize with the religious institution in question but I sympathize more with the woman. The worst possible scenario is if the financial burden is too much and drives her to abortion. US is notorious for its poor support systems for pregnant women and she has zero chances of getting employment in any relevant field while being pregnant. It really is a tragedy.

Montresor · Mon, 16th Apr '12, 10:49pm

Being a teacher in any field is like being a priest in at least one way: You are a role model to others and should practise what you preach/teach. A teacher is a role model to her students, which in this case include teenagers. I could think of better things to teach them than that it is A-OK to become a single mom, or that the values of your employer are only fit to be trampled underfoot.

Morgoroth · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 12:43am

She was an athletics teacher. I fail to see how it was her main responsibility to teach Christian values. I'm sure they have more proficient teachers in that area. The last two sentences are filled with prejudice and neither can be proven. Becoming a single mom and saying it's A-OK to be one, are two completely different things.

Blackthorne TA · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 12:50am

Not that it really matters, but for clarity of the discussion she was both a volleyball coach and a science teacher.

T2Bruno · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 2:21am

Quote:

I could think of better things to teach them than that it is A-OK to become a single mom

Yes and the school taught a great lesson that it's okay to turn your back on a unwed mother.

Ragusa · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 6:33am

Look folks, I don't like the result either, but it's legal.

And at a Christian school, they expect the entire staff to represent Christian values - in life and teaching. As a result it doesn't matter whether she was a wonderful volleyball coach and science teacher, a nice person generally, or a stellar religious studies teacher.

The Shaman · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Yes and the school taught a great lesson that it's okay to turn your back on a unwed mother.

Hopefully, it will teach them that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's okay. A great moral lesson, but one in which the school occupies a rather ironic position.

T2Bruno · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 3:00pm

This has been bothering me ... Monty, why do you believe it is not "A-OK" to be a single mom? What is the problem with a woman choosing to have a child regardless of marital status?

Splunge · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 3:07pm

I don't think Monty said it wasn't A-OK; he just said he thought there were higher priorities than to teach that it was OK.

Anyway, In Canada, there might be a case for arguing a human rights code violation, notwithstanding the fact that she signed a contract.

Aldeth the Foppish Idiot · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 3:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LKD

I can't think of many Christian denominations that do not consider sex outside of marriage to be a sin and something to be avoided ... I can't see her successfully arguing that she didn't know that screwing around out of wedlock was something the school would have frowned on. In other words, when you say "Christian Role Model" in a clause, I think it's pretty damn clear what they want to see from you. This is hardly a grey area, IMHO.

Oh, it's not a gray area - and I conceded as much. I'm just saying that they do not delineate anywhere in the contract exactly what that means, so it's entirely up to them to determine how to apply the rule. (For example, could they fire you if they feel you don't go to church often enough?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoroth

The worst possible scenario is if the financial burden is too much and drives her to abortion.

That scenario seems pretty remote. She was fired a few months ago, and if she were going to get an abortion she would have by now. In fact, given that she's in the final trimester of her pregnancy, she can't legally get an abortion in the US at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montresor

I could think of better things to teach them than that it is A-OK to become a single mom

I can think of a lot of worse things to teach them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shaman

Hopefully, it will teach them that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's okay. A great moral lesson, but one in which the school occupies a rather ironic position.

Indeed. Christian values at work!

Gaear · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 4:52pm

If her contract did not explicitly state "you cannot become pregnant out of wedlock," that does seem to make the situation a lot shakier for the school. (But I'm no contract lawyer.)

That said, there is a lot of theatrical crying and violin playing going on here that I find ... amusing. e.g. - a pregnant woman being fired from her job is a "tragedy?" Cut it out.

A challenge for the pregnant gal, sure, but a tragedy would be moreso if she and the entire volleyball team were slaughtered in a bus-train accident or something. Let's keep some perspective.

damedog · Tue, 17th Apr '12, 10:45pm

*sigh* There's just no pleasing everyone. If the school didn't fire her they would be considered hypocrites and send the message that their values aren't worth defending, and if they did fire her for obviously violating a part of her contract some sanctimonious religion bashers will cry to the heavens about how terrible they are (not anyone here, just the way it usually goes IMO).

I think a good compromise would have been to keep her on the payroll until her baby was delivered and maternity leave and then let her go. That way the child would have been secure and they could have stuck up for their values. That being said, she did violate a part of her contract and she did sign up at a Christian school. You don't work at rehab with a drug problem and then complain when you're fired.

Morgoroth · Thu, 19th Apr '12, 12:02am

I am not interested in bashing a religion, I'm interested in the protected status of pregnant women, which is stronger in some countries than others. When a woman gets pregnant it's obviously a financial strain in itself, getting fired at the same time might be quite disastrous, especially if she happened to have a mortgage.

In the end the US law says what it says about the issue and it's not my place to tell them how their laws should look like. I'm just stating that in here the termination would be illegal and she would have to be kept on the payroll until the responsibilities required from employers by law would be completed. Firing her after that would probably not be a problem.

pplr · Thu, 19th Apr '12, 4:15pm

I'm a practicing Catholic (go to Mass each weekend) and live in the US.

I think damedog put out a good point and I have to wonder if the rest of the school staff did something less than positive at some point in their lives but it simply wasn't seen.

If she teaches science then she may have a decent shot at finding another school. But firing a pregnant lady when she (and her innocent child) may need whatever medical coverage is available seems overly cold and not something I would necessarily describe as of a Christian model in itself.

I admit leaning liberal in some ways (may have bias) but I feel like this is punishment potentially setting up for the possibility of a bad situation (rather than correction).

Déise · Fri, 20th Apr '12, 1:42am

It's a very dispiriting story to hear. I'd consider it a very clear case of indirect discrimination. While the school might technically fire any teacher for fornication it's most likely to actually become an issue when a woman becomes pregnant. I don't see a man losing his job in this way unless he's involved in a local scandal (say an affair that becomes public knowledge).

Mon, 16th Apr '12, 10:49pm	#27
Montresor SPS Account Holder Distinguished Member Online Walkthrough Writer Mostly Harmless 30k Starfighter Champion! Bomb Bandits Champion! Breakout Champion! Cutie Quake Champion! Driller Champion! Hexxagon Champion! Michu Champion! Treasure Hunt Champion! Driving Mad Champion! Moebius Syndrome Champion! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,977 Blog Entries: 2 Like: 42 Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 7,844 Level: 26 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 89.71% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 23.59% Monthly Activity 23.77% Achievements Awards	Being a teacher in any field is like being a priest in at least one way: You are a role model to others and should practise what you preach/teach. A teacher is a role model to her students, which in this case include teenagers. I could think of better things to teach them than that it is A-OK to become a single mom, or that the values of your employer are only fit to be trampled underfoot.
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Tue, 17th Apr '12, 12:50am	#29
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Tue, 17th Apr '12, 6:33am	#31
Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: ... this world, where reality beats satire ... Posts: 10,177 Like: 5 Liked 17 Times in 12 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 25,504 Level: 43 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 92.62% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 2.46% Monthly Activity 1.51% Achievements	Look folks, I don't like the result either, but it's legal. And at a Christian school, they expect the entire staff to represent Christian values - in life and teaching. As a result it doesn't matter whether she was a wonderful volleyball coach and science teacher, a nice person generally, or a stellar religious studies teacher.
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Tue, 17th Apr '12, 3:00pm	#33
T2Bruno SPS Account Holder The only source of knowledge is experience Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chicago -- far west suburbs. Posts: 9,310 Like: 19 Liked 76 Times in 58 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,254 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 57.1% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 2.46% Monthly Activity 26.36% Achievements Awards	This has been bothering me ... Monty, why do you believe it is not "A-OK" to be a single mom? What is the problem with a woman choosing to have a child regardless of marital status?
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Tue, 17th Apr '12, 3:07pm	#34
Splunge SPS Account Holder Bhaal’s financial advisor Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In hiding after Bhaal became Lord of Murder when I had him put everything into subprime mortgages. Posts: 6,545 Like: 13 Liked 57 Times in 38 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 15,912 Level: 36 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 22.98% Daily Activity 51.72% Weekly Activity 108.1% Monthly Activity 57.17% Achievements Awards	I don't think Monty said it wasn't A-OK; he just said he thought there were higher priorities than to teach that it was OK. Anyway, In Canada, there might be a case for arguing a human rights code violation, notwithstanding the fact that she signed a contract.
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Tue, 17th Apr '12, 12:43am	#28
Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn't mean that I'm into Japanese schoolgirls Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Turku,Finland Posts: 2,369 Like: 4 Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 5,493 Level: 23 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 7.94% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 9.51% Monthly Activity 25.36% Achievements	She was an athletics teacher. I fail to see how it was her main responsibility to teach Christian values. I'm sure they have more proficient teachers in that area. The last two sentences are filled with prejudice and neither can be proven. Becoming a single mom and saying it's A-OK to be one, are two completely different things.

Tue, 17th Apr '12, 4:52pm	#36
Gaear SPS Account Holder Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,680 Like: 48 Liked 69 Times in 45 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 4,753 Level: 21 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 67.32% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 123.94% Monthly Activity 63.93% Achievements Awards	If her contract did not explicitly state "you cannot become pregnant out of wedlock," that does seem to make the situation a lot shakier for the school. (But I'm no contract lawyer.) That said, there is a lot of theatrical crying and violin playing going on here that I find ... amusing. e.g. - a pregnant woman being fired from her job is a "tragedy?" Cut it out. A challenge for the pregnant gal, sure, but a tragedy would be moreso if she and the entire volleyball team were slaughtered in a bus-train accident or something. Let's keep some perspective.

Thu, 19th Apr '12, 12:02am	#38
Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn't mean that I'm into Japanese schoolgirls Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Turku,Finland Posts: 2,369 Like: 4 Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 5,493 Level: 23 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 7.94% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 9.51% Monthly Activity 25.36% Achievements	I am not interested in bashing a religion, I'm interested in the protected status of pregnant women, which is stronger in some countries than others. When a woman gets pregnant it's obviously a financial strain in itself, getting fired at the same time might be quite disastrous, especially if she happened to have a mortgage. In the end the US law says what it says about the issue and it's not my place to tell them how their laws should look like. I'm just stating that in here the termination would be illegal and she would have to be kept on the payroll until the responsibilities required from employers by law would be completed. Firing her after that would probably not be a problem.

Thu, 19th Apr '12, 4:15pm	#39
pplr Gems: 16/31 Latest gem: Shandon Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 866 Like: 3 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,451 Level: 16 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 23.88% Daily Activity 2.46% Weekly Activity 2.46% Monthly Activity 1.51% Achievements	I'm a practicing Catholic (go to Mass each weekend) and live in the US. I think damedog put out a good point and I have to wonder if the rest of the school staff did something less than positive at some point in their lives but it simply wasn't seen. If she teaches science then she may have a decent shot at finding another school. But firing a pregnant lady when she (and her innocent child) may need whatever medical coverage is available seems overly cold and not something I would necessarily describe as of a Christian model in itself. I admit leaning liberal in some ways (may have bias) but I feel like this is punishment potentially setting up for the possibility of a bad situation (rather than correction).