King James (Non-Americans Tolerated)

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Well, it has happened, LeBron has a ring. I have to wonder if this will at least be enough to silence some of his worst critics. Although apparently not, as one person stated this morning to "wake me up when he wins 5 or 6". (It should be pointed out that there was a time when Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, etc. only had one championship to their name.)

I am no fan of the Heat, nor LeBron James in particular. However, I have always felt that the vitriol spouted his way was so over the top and disproportionate to his admittedly poor way he decided to leave Cleveland. And I think it's entirely the way he left, not that he left. There's lots of superstars that get drafted, leave the team that drafted them to go somewhere that there are other good players, and win a championship with their new team. Shaq never won a title in Orlando, KG never won a title in Minnesota.

"The Decision" as it has been termed was poorly thought out, and if LeBron made a habit of surrounding himself with people other than yes-men that tell him everything he thinks of is a good idea, maybe it never would have happened. However, for how poorly thought out and executed The Decision turned out to be, it was well-intentioned, and it did raise over $2 million in charity money.

The other thing that rubs people the wrong way is the pep rally that Miami put on after signing both LeBron and Bosh. That also was a really bad idea, although if we are to believe the reports, that was the owner's idea - not LeBron's.

The larger point I'm making here is - Yes, the guy has made mistakes. Yes, the guy has taken some really bad advice. And yes, I believe if he could do it all over again he wouldn't have done it that way. But the way some people are still reacting to it, I don't get it. It's been two years people, get over it. I've had girls break up with me, but I didn't continue to be pissed off at them two years later! And I certainly wouldn't have been pissed off if they went on to success later in their lives. I mean, what gives?

[Splunge]

People generally dislike super-egos. So yeah, IMO it's all about "The Decision". And while I agree with you that he might do it differently if he had a do-over, that's not really a redeeming factor - I mean, who wouldn't wish they'd done something dfferently once they realize they looked like an ass. It doesn't make them any less of an ass, it just helps them to hide it better.

[Harbourboy]

Those NBA guys are really tall. Some of the skills in that game were awesome.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Originally Posted by Splunge

People generally dislike super-egos. So yeah, IMO it's all about "The Decision". And while I agree with you that he might do it differently if he had a do-over, that's not really a redeeming factor - I mean, who wouldn't wish they'd done something dfferently once they realize they looked like an ass. It doesn't make them any less of an ass, it just helps them to hide it better.

That's the thing Splunge, where do you get "Super-Ego" for Lebron? They celebrated for one-day after he was signed. Super-Ego? I don't believe he has one. The media pretty much blasted him for a one-day celebration. They created the Super-Ego personna. The dude works hard on his game. So does Wade. And they took alot less money to play together for a chance for a title. It took a couple of years andthey have it. Super-Ego? Nah....... That would be Shaq, not Lebron. That would be Isiah Thomas, not Lebron. That would be Carmelo Anthony, not Lebron.

[Splunge]

Originally Posted by Blades of Vanatar

That's the thing Splunge, where do you get "Super-Ego" for Lebron?

I don't have to look any further than "The Decision".

[Blades of Vanatar]

Again, the Decision was one day in his career. You define him on one-day. How is that fair?

[Splunge]

It isn’t. But then, he put himself in the position to be judged by having that circus event in the first place. For the record, I don’t really follow basketball, nor do I know much about the players. Yes, I know he’s talented, but that doesn’t tell me anything about his personality. What does tell me something is that he thinks so highly of himself that he thought it was a really good idea to have an entire TV special centered around announcing which team he was going to join. That says to me “super-ego”. Now maybe you’re right, and he isn’t egotistic, in which case he’s just dumb for not realizing that maybe, just maybe, people wouldn’t be so enthusiastic about this as he thought they would be.

[Harbourboy]

Originally Posted by Splunge

It isn’t. But then, he put himself in the position to be judged by having that circus event in the first place. For the record, I don’t really follow basketball, nor do I know much about the players. Yes, I know he’s talented, but that doesn’t tell me anything about his personality. What does tell me something is that he thinks so highly of himself that he thought it was a really good idea to have an entire TV special centered around announcing which team he was going to join. That says to me “super-ego”. Now maybe you’re right, and he isn’t egotistic, in which case he’s just dumb for not realizing that maybe, just maybe, people wouldn’t be so enthusiastic about this as he thought they would be.

That does sound a bit egotistical to me.

[Gnarfflinger]

I'm not big on the NBA, and I'm not a fan of King james (but I do like the nickname). That said, the wrath brought agains the Heat is well earned for the overhyping of their signings.

In bringing in James and Bosh, they seriously screwed over two struggling teams, the Cavaliers and the Raptors. It will be years before either team recovers from the loss of those players.

The 2 million to charity that came from "The Decision" is overshadowed by the fact that the guy got a one hour TV special on ESPN to make a 15 second announcement at the end of the hour. That didn't sit well. Then there's the press conference after Bosh came aboard where they predicted a dynasty, thus announcing to the fans of 29 (I think it's 29) other teams that they won't be winning a title any time soon. That put them on public display in front of millions of now alienated fans.

Also there's comments interspersed throughout the last two years that imply that they are still pompous jackasses. A particular example is when James pointed out how much everyone else's life sucked after choking against the Maveriks last year. Another one is when they said their own practices would be tougher than most games they played. This shows contempt for everone else, adn again doesn't sit well.

So next year, the Heat will win many games, and fans in 29 markets will hate them. They have nobody to blame but themselves. They may have the title and the ring, but they won't win respect...

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

In bringing in James and Bosh, they seriously screwed over two struggling teams, the Cavaliers and the Raptors. It will be years before either team recovers from the loss of those players.

That's about the only point you made in which I disagree. The fact is, Bosh and James weren't staying in Toronto and Cleveland, respectively. James played seven years in Cleveland, Bosh played six years in Toronto. Their teams had many years to bring in a second good player, and they never did. (It was considered that there was a low chance of James staying, and virtually no chance of Bosh staying.)

When their contracts were up, it was no surprise they wanted to play on a more competitive team, and free agency in the NBA allows teams with expired contracts to play for whichever team makes them an offer. If any person screwed over Cleveland and Toronto, it was the owners of those teams. Had they made an investment to field a more competitive team in the years they had those superstars, perhaps they wouldn't have been so eager to play elsewhere.

[Gnarfflinger]

I'd believe both teams brought in what they expected would be good players around them, only to find that they didn't pan out. Show me a team that's never had something like that happen. But losing their biggest name player for almost nothing was a major setback.

[Blades of Vanatar]

A few points to be made....

- James and Bosh took less money to have a chance to play for a winner. There is something wrong with that? Hello, it is the essence of free-agency.

- The "Decision" event was a charity fund-raiser that raised over 6 milion dollars, over 2 million of it went to Boys n Girls club that the event was held at.

- Think back a few years ago. What did Boston do? Wtih Pierce they added Garnett and Ray Allen. They won a champinship by doing it. Were they hated for it?

I don' think they should be despised for celebrating a coming together of talent. I am not a Heat fan. I was rooting for the Thunder in the finals. but I don't hate James. I also like to see great players rise to the occassion. Which is what we saw in the playoffs from James.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Gnarfflinger

But losing their biggest name player for almost nothing was a major setback.

To be a bit more precise, it was "for absolutely nothing", not "for almost nothing". James and Bosh were both free agents - they walked away at the end of their contracts, and Cleveland and Toronto were not compensated by the Heat in any way.

That is different than what happened in the case of KG, as he was traded to Boston. Garnett was traded from the Timberwolves to the Celtics in exchange for Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, cash considerations, Boston's 2009 first-round draft pick (top 3 protected) and the 2009 first-round pick Minnesota had traded to Boston in the Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade of 2006. The 7-for-1 deal constitutes the largest number of players traded for a single player in league history. Source

Now, one could argue that if KG was a dollar, that the Celtics effectively traded away 7 dimes to acquire him. (And I'm using dime here as the actual monetary amount, not the slang term for an assist.)

Same thing with Ray Allen. In the same year as the Garnett signing, the then-Sonics (now the OKC Thunder) traded Allen and Glen Davis, the 35th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, to the Celtics in exchange for Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, and the fifth overall pick, Jeff Green. Source

So in both cases, the other teams got something back. (Although nowhere near what they gave away.) In hindsight, while the Ray Allen deal looked like a winner for the Sonics, it totally bombed. Both West and Szczerbiak didn't even finish a full season with the Sonics - both were traded shortly before the NBA trade deadline. And Jeff Green, highly regarded coming out of college, turned into nothing.

The larger point here is that we are often critical of athletes always leaving their small-market franchises for the big money. In the case of James and Bosh, they actually left for less money than what they would have got if they stayed. According to NBA rules, the maximum contract value a player can be offered is higher if he is still on the team that drafted him. In other words, there was no other team in the league that could offer James the amount of money the Cavaliers were able to offer him, and he left anyway.

[Gnarfflinger]

BoV: I think the points you make are lost in the hype. Everyone remembers "The Decision", nobody remembers the charity money. That left a bad taste in people's mouth, and apparently 2 years is not enough time to cleanse it. Sure they took less money, but it almost feels like the players colluded on this before hand. That's the difference between what Miami did and what boston did. Boston got their big three via the trade, compensating the teams they raided, and not through collusion by a few players.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Gnarf,

Most players collude with other players about where they are going these days in the NBA, regardless of current contract status. Melo is the perfect example. If you think Garnett had nothing to do with going to Boston your are missing the obvious. He wanted out. Luckily, his team was in a a position to receive something in trade. Cleveland and Toronto could of traded James and Bosh the year before, but chose not too. They gambled. I have no sympthay for them. They should of made a greater effort to sign them beforehand.

[Gnarfflinger]

I guess that makes me glad I'm not heavily invested in the NBA. Sure I see things like that in hockey, but not that obvious.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Blades of Vanatar

They should of made a greater effort to sign them beforehand.

I have no idea what offer was on the the table for Bosh. But in the case of James, the Cavs were offering him a max deal in terms of money and years. They literally offered him the most one is able to offer a player under the NBA salary guidelines. And since the NBA incentivizes players to stay with the team that drafted them by allowing the team that drafts them to offer 10% more than teams that didn't draft them, I think it's fair to say that the Cavs in terms of money offered all they could.

I think the problem for them was A) James didn't want to continue playing for Cleveland and B) the Cavs never had even a second pretty good player on the team to pick up some of the slack for James (which may be one of the reasons for part A). The bottom line is if a player doesn't want to play for a given team, he has the right to exercise free agency at the conclusion of his contract, which James did.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Good points Aldeth...

My meaning of "effort" I guess goes to accumulating other star players to try and convince James to stay and anyhting else they could of done to make him want to be a Cav. Why did he leave? IMO, because he thought he couldn't win a championship on his own. He got close giving his best effort, but failed. Going to Miami gave him a chance to be a part of something special. To be a winner, which is something he never had prior at his level. Which is now panning out for him.

MJ once said that he would never contemplate what James did because he preferred the challenge of beating Magic, Bird, Isiah and the other greats of his time. In that regard, I think leaving Cleveland makes him "less" great as an individual player. But it also made him more of a team player or at the least helped him understand how to be a team player. Others can judge that as they see fit, but I don't see it as a step in the wrong direction.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

But Jordan's comparison falls short on one key point: In each example he lists, those teams had more than just one star.

Sure, Jordan was probably the best player in NBA history, but he didn't do it alone. Scottie Pippen (HOF) was with him for all six titles. Rebounding machines Horace Grant (multiple All-Star appearances) was there for the first three, and Dennis Rodman (multiple All-Star appearances and two defensive players of the year) was there for the second set of three.

Magic had Jabaar (HoF) for the first half of his career, and Worthy (HoF) for the second half of his career. Granted, they were only both present on 2 of the 5 championships Magic won, but at least one was present for all 5.

Bird had three future HoFers present for all of his titles: McHale, Johnson, and Parrish.

Isiah was the only future HoFer on the teams where he won both of his NBA titles, but he wasn't the only star. Bill Lambeer made the All-Star team both of those years, as did Dennis Rodman, although his two defensive player of the year awards were when he was with the Bulls.

Compare that with the Cavs teams that James was on. He was there for seven years, and not one single year did another member of that team make an all-star team, much less the HoF. So I don't consider James' Miami Heat team as being significantly different than the players of the teams Jordan listed. James has one future HoFer in Wade, and another player who probably isn't a HOFer (but IS an All-Star) in Bosh.

If I'm going to get nit-picky, I should also point out that there was no salary cap at that time, and there were teams that were loaded because of it. There was a reason why teams like the Celtics, Bulls, Lakers, and Pistons won the title seemingly every year - they had the best players on their teams! The only other remotely competetive competitive teams in that entire 15 year stretch were the Rockets (lost the title three times to the aforementioned teams and only won their titles when Jordan took a basketball hiatus) and the Knicks who typically got eliminated by the Bulls in a seven game series. Those teams were so dominant precisely because they had multiple star players.

[Blades of Vanatar]

How does the comparison fall short? Jordan was referring to his opponents great teams. He wanted to beat them as the only Superstar on the team. He is saying he wouldn't team with Bird to beat Magic. I get that. And NO, Pippen is not a Bird or Magic. Not by a long shot.

Jordan never had a teammate that could carry the game offensively for a game. His opponents sure did. Jordan really only had role-players around him. Usually a three-headed giant at Center, Grant/King/Rodman at PF, Pippen at SF and Paxson/Hodges/Kerr at PG. Pippen was a average shooter at best and when Jordan left the Bulls he was never a top scorer, just a decent one. Great defender though. Probably top five all-time. Grant was decent, but not a super-star. His career high in PPG was 15.1 and he averaged over 10 rebounds a game jsut twice. He was an all-star because he was a Bull, period. Rodman was non-existant as a scorer, though I think he was the Best Defender ever. EVER! Bird played with several guys who did have 20.0 PPG seasons, as did Magic(Jabbar, Worthy, Scott) and Isiah(Tripuka(spelling?), Dumars, Aguire, Lambeer). Bird(Mchale, DJ, not sure on Parrish) also had Walton for a year or two and Ainge. Also good for several chunks of years during Jordan's career were the Suns(KJ, Barkley),the Trailblazers(Clyde, Porter), the Jazz and Golden State(Mullin(My Man!), Hardaway, Webber, Spree) had several good season with early playoff exits. San Antonio was pretty good for a while there as well with the Admiral at the Helm. When Jordan played, there were a ton of stars adn tons of good teams, just like today's game. He defeated them all. What I wonder is what was the Bulls payroll as compared to the rest of the league during his years? Minus Jordan's salary that is compared to every other team minus their star player. Something tells me they would be comprable. You could of put any 4 average NBA players on the floor with Jordan and he could still carry them in a playoff round. That is what made Jordan the greatest. That cannot be said of Bird or Magic. I think Lebron reached that plateau, but since he didn't win it all with a lesser cast than Jordan or the others, he felt he needed help. Just my opinion of course. Greatest these days is counted by championships and Lebron knows it.

* Shaq will be a HoFer and played for the Cavs while Lebron was there.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

I get the comparison that Jordan was making. My point is that there was no great impetus for Jordan to switch teams because he had a more than capable supporting cast. It's true that Pippen isn't as good as Magic, Bird, et al, but he IS a HoFer, and way better than anyone LeBron ever had in Cleveland. No, old fat Shaq doesn't count. Shaq developed into a star in Orlando, peaked in LA, and was still very good when he went to Miami. He went into steep decline when he went to Phoenix, and was a complete non-factor by the time he went to Cleveland. Comparing the Shaq that played in Orlando, LA, and Miami to the Shaq that played in Cleveland is like comparing Jordon on the Bulls to Jordan on the Wizards.

My larger point is that I do not feel that LeBron saw his move to Miami as a means of avoiding the competition of playing against Wade and Bosh. I think he saw it as a means of getting himself on the same footing as other teams. Look at the other good teams in the league right now. All of them have at minimum two, and most of them have three very good players.

And while I agree that there were many good teams in the 80s and 90s, there were very few great teams. How many teams not named the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, or Pistons won a title between 1980 and 2002? (2002ish - I forget what year that Lakers run of 3 ended.) The two the Rockets won in between the Bulls two sets of three. The 76ers had a single title back in the early 80s. And perhaps the Spurs won their only title with the Admiral and Duncan together thrown in there. If there were so many other "great" teams in the league then, I think they would have managed more than 4 titles combined in a 23 year period.

Just looked it up, and it turns out the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons lost another 7 Finals in that 23 year span - usually to each other. Most of the other teams you listed made it to one or two, and sometimes no Finals. Barkley's Suns made it to one. Trailblazers with Clyde and Porter made it to two. the Jazz with Stockton and Malone made it to two. Golden State didn't win any, and the Spurs did have the one title. I'm surprised you passed up the one team that you could actually make a good case for - the Rockets led by Hakeem Olajuwon. He was criminally under-rated. I think Hakeem would make my list of top 10 ever.

[Blades of Vanatar]

All good points Aldeth.

I thought you mentioned the Rockets and the Knicks, so I left them out.

Like Lebron, Jordan didn't win a Ring in his first 5 or six years. But he didn't leave to win a Ring. Lebron did. That is what Jordan is saying. I am not saying I completely agree with him as teh dynamics on salaries have changed, but I understand his point. If Jordan went to any of the teams I listed, even outside of the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons, he would of brought home a Ring instaneously. Hell, just about any team with Jordan aded would of been an instant contender.

After watching this years playoff run, barring serious injuries, it looks like the Heat will be winning a few more as well. Though I do like the Nash signing for LA, Nash can't defend, so in the playoffs, unless he puts of 30+ a night, I don't see him putting LA back on top, even if they keep Gasol. Allen possibly signing with the Heat as added bench will be huge as well.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Blades of Vanatar

If Jordan went to any of the teams I listed, even outside of the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons, he would of brought home a Ring instaneously. Hell, just about any team with Jordan aded would of been an instant contender.

Well I certainly can't argue with that. Jordan had a very good supporting cast, including another HoFer, and he won six titles. I think it's only logical to conclude that if he went somewhere else that had talent - especially a team that had future HoFers, that he would also have won a ton of titles.

The careers of MJ and LeBraon started similarly. They both went to teams that were pretty bad, with very little pre-existing talent. And they both took their teams from losers to playoff teams. I looked up the rest of the starting lineup on the Bulls for the 1984 and 1985 seasons (the first two years Jordan was on the team).

Quintin Daily (G), Orlando Woolridge (F), Steve Johnson (F), Dave Corzine (C)

Remember them? Neither do I.

Compare that to the first team that Jordan won a championship in 1991. The other members were: BJ Armstrong (G), Pippen (F), Grant (F), Bill Cartwright (C).

The difference is in the following six years that Jordan was on the team, they improved. Jordan was actually the first of the pieces acquired that made up the eventual championship team. Bill Cartwright came in a trade from the Knicks. They drafted Armstrong and Grant, and Pippen was actually acquired in a draft day deal (technically the Sonics drafted him, although he never played a single game in a Sonics uniform). The team was put together in 1989, although they didn't win the title that year (which also is another parallel to LeBron).

What we don't know, and never will, is what would have happened if the Bulls hadn't put together such a good supporting cast? Would Jordan have been able to take a team to a championship with below average talent? We'll never know. Or, on the flip side, would LeBron have been able to win a championship if he had a little bit more help in Cleveland? Again, impossible to say.

After watching this years playoff run, barring serious injuries, it looks like the Heat will be winning a few more as well. Though I do like the Nash signing for LA, Nash can't defend, so in the playoffs, unless he puts of 30+ a night, I don't see him putting LA back on top, even if they keep Gasol. Allen possibly signing with the Heat as added bench will be huge as well.

I think the Nash signing was huge. The Lakers haven't had a true point guard in forever, although last year they were particularly bad - it was unquestioningly their position of greatest need. I'm with you, that I don't know if it will be enough to put them back on top, but adding Nash has to be seen as a huge upgrade.

With Allen, even though they say he's coming off the bench, I think he's going to see a ton of minutes. He may well be the 4th best player on that team. (And if that's all you need Allen to do - be the 4th best player, that's pretty darn good.)

[Blades of Vanatar]

The thing is, I don't particularly think that Jordan's cast was gthat great during his championship years. Kerr, Paxson, Hodges & Armstrong were one-dimensional players all. Grant is overrated in my opinion. The only 2 star players to play with jordan in chicago were Pippen and Rodman. The rest were average at best. And Jordan on floor makes them better.

Allen will have to come off the bench, there is no starting position available. PG - Chalmers, SG - Wade, SF- James. Allen is a SG only and that's Wade spot. Chalmers played so good in the playoffs, I think he solidified the PG starting postion for years to come in Miami. Of course, Wade or James can play PG to let Allen enter the floor, but they won't have that happen a lot per game, as it will tire them out on the defensive end. Allen will see 24-28 minutes per game until someone gets injured. He is insurance for Wade or Lebron and a huge bench boost with his 3-point shooting.

[dmc]

Couple of things:

Orlando Woolridge was reasonably good. Dave Corzine, meh. Quintin Daily was OK. Even I don't remember Steve Johnson.

Also, it's not necessarily the overall talent of the pieces, but how their talent matches up with their assigned tasks. In the dynasty Bulls, you actually had the completely ideal pieces for an established star like MJ. He needed a wing defender and secondary scoring option - can't do better than Pippin. He needed a rebound guy, scoring is a bonus. Grant was that and Rodman was REALLY that. He needed spot up shooters so that his drives could have kicks in them, he had perfectly suited people for that. He needed big bodies at center and he had that, albeit Bill Cartwright was a good talent, the three headed monster that succeeded him was meh at best.

He didn't need another dominant scorer, because that's what he was.

To compare to, say, Kobe, he came in where there was an established alpha in Shaq. That completely changes the dynamics, in that Kobe was the Pippin in that equation, but he wasn't content to be Robin to Shaq's Batman.

However, if you look at the 2000 Lakers teams, what else did they have? Aging Rick Fox, aging Grant, Horry, aging Bryan Shaw, aging Ron Harper, young Fisher and such awesome talent as Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, and Mark Madsen.

Point being is that the team won because the pieces were just fine for their roles and Shaq and Kobe weren't completely at each others' throats. Jordan's Bulls won because the pieces were fine for their roles and Pippin knew damned well who was boss and was comfortable with it.

Last year's Heat LOST because their pieces were not good for their roles and their stars hadn't figured out what was what. This year's Heat WON because their pieces worked well for their roles and the stars figured it out.

Ray Allen could start on the Heat like this: Chalmers (PG); Allen (SG); Wade (SF); James (PF); Bosh (C). That's their best lineup anyway. You've got 4 guys who can play 1 - 3 on that squad and, aside from whatever team winds up with Dwight Howard, you really don't worry about another center abusing Bosh anyway. The game is much faster and rewards speed over size.