Moral Dilemmas - Page 3

Gaear · Mon, 16th Jul '12, 8:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTA

There are even several drunk old men and babies amongst the train riders.

Paracelsi · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 6:18am

What I've been trying to point out to you all this time is that you seem to think that (hypothetically) although you are physically there and you are part of the situation whether you like it or not, you seem predisposed to compartmentalize things so from your viewpoint you are somehow not actually part of the situation (ie, "let present circumstances proceed as they should").

Now if you find the last paragraph outrageous, then that's simply how different your line of thinking is from mine. I do not think I can recreate my reasoning using your viewpoint. So... short of me actively forcing my ideals on you, I don't think I can explain it in some other way.

Anyway for me your new example only introduces a compulsion to choose. That doesn't change the bottomline - that ultimately you make a choice/decision, that doing so counts as an act, and that act kills/saves one of them (or you and a dozen people).

Note that I do not consider compulsion, blame, intent, regret, responsibility, or whatever in this part my observations - I try to look at these things as objectively as I can, and basically the person who makes the choice is to me simply a variable that is nevertheless a part of the big equation, whether it likes to be or not. If you can think like that, then if you can imagine yourself back into the situation then you know that whatever you decide (even if you decide to do nothing), it will (most probably) result with one of them dying anyway. So if you think they are equally important, then it no longer becomes about choosing whether to act, or not to act.

Edit: mis-posted, continued

Blackthorne TA · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 6:31am

Sorry, but making a choice is not acting. Acting means some action was taken. So, no I don't think you are not part of the situation; though one of my points is that if you were NOT part of the situation the baby would die and not the old man. And that's what makes it different.

And you essentially contradict yourself in your last paragraph. You say my new situation introduces a compulsion to choose, yet in the very next sentence you say it's no different because you ultimately make a choice in either situation. So where is the compulsion to choose coming from in my new situation if in both situations you are choosing? There isn't one; there is a compulsion to ACT in the new situation that is not present in the original one. And as I've been saying THAT's the difference.

T2Bruno · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 1:58pm

Paracelsi, there are a lot of people who do nothing in an emergency -- for whatever reason. A few months ago a two year old girl was hit by a car in China and for two hours people just walked by her while she cried. Women are raped (and killed) in public places and no one even calls the police.There are simply some people who would rather do nothing than get involved; I don't understand the mindset but I know it's real.

joacqin · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 2:06pm

What you describe is a known phenomena and now I can't remember its name but the point is that if the street had been empty and the child was crying most people would go help it, same with the assaulted woman but the more people there are around the less likely people are to help because they think "someone else will do it, someone else is better suited to do it". The presence of others gives you a way out of getting involved while if you are the only one around you are the only one who can help and most would.

Aldeth the Foppish Idiot · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 3:13pm

I have heard of that too joacqin. It's counterintuitive, but it basically says the more people there are around to help you in a time of need, the less likely you are of actually receiving help. And I agree that it stems from the mindset you describe - there's someone else here who can help better than me.

But that same person if they are the only person around, is likely to jump in, because of the mindset if I don't help than no one else can.

Blackthorne TA · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 4:38pm

Quote:

If you can think like that, then if you can imagine yourself back into the situation then you know that whatever you decide (even if you decide to do nothing), it will (most probably) result with one of them dying anyway. So if you think they are equally important, then it no longer becomes about choosing whether to act, or not to act.

This was added after I responded.

I don't think you are including everything that you should in your "equation". There is a different, greater, cost in acting vs. not acting so it must be included. So, again, if either way one of them will die and to you both of them are equally important why would you incur the extra cost of acting? In other words, as above, what would impel you to act?

Gaear · Tue, 17th Jul '12, 7:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by joacquin

What you describe is a known phenomena and now I can't remember its name but the point is that if the street had been empty and the child was crying most people would go help it, same with the assaulted woman but the more people there are around the less likely people are to help because they think "someone else will do it, someone else is better suited to do it". The presence of others gives you a way out of getting involved while if you are the only one around you are the only one who can help and most would.

Sometimes, in some places, there's a bit more to it though ... like real apathy and even genuine disdain for various cultures/races/national origins. In those cases the thinking is not "someone else will do it, someone else is better suited to do it," but "f*ck that guy/gal/kid."

Quote:

Originally Posted by T2

Women are raped (and killed) in public places and no one even calls the police.

In some places, as per the above-described mentality, this has even been cheered on by the viewing public. That's not reluctance to help, it's active contempt for the victim (with maybe a twist of mob mentality thrown in).

nunsbane · Thu, 19th Jul '12, 4:50am

Blackthorne, those who insist that all life is equally important are being dishonest with themselves and the forum. Almost all of us have held a baby and experienced it's helplessness and faultlessness first hand. There is no way to fight the biological and evolutionary forces which dictate that babies are to be preserved.**

Your question has not been answered because of an unwillingness to honestly compare the value.

**Unfortunately, many of us have also held blindly drunken men in our arms at some point...which makes my argument all the stronger.

Blackthorne TA · Thu, 19th Jul '12, 5:13am

My question was only hypothetical - like the dilemmas themselves: Given the conditions specified, what do you think?

However, though I don't say you should believe one way or the other, I deny your claim above. Given no other information, a baby is not inherently better than anyone else, and could very well be much worse. Given the information presented, I do not see any difference in value between the two. Helplessness and faultlessness are not valuable attributes, and the same could be said for the drunk old man; we have no information about the circumstances that brought either of them to the tracks in the condition they are in.

I don't claim all life is equally important; I'm claiming that for me the information given does not differentiate the two in any important way.

Gaear · Thu, 19th Jul '12, 5:55pm

In most places, there is no real value distinction made when it comes to human life. If you murder a 1 day old baby or a 99 year old drunken man with one day left to live, you've still committed murder, punishable by the same penalties.

There are also some strange value assumptions creeping into the discussion here. e.g., who is anyone to decide that the drunken man's life is worth less than the baby's? Is it based on some abstract concept of what they each have to offer to society? If so, why is it anyone's duty to use their life to contribute to society, and why does not doing so make their lives less worthwhile? It may make their lives less worthwhile to society, but why is that a determining factor?

At any rate, I think these are the very reasons why all life is considered equal by most states - judgments about value are generally made on very shaky, subjective ground, the like of which can allow me to conclude that, say, BTA's life is not worth as much because he didn't contribute to my PAC.

Blackthorne TA · Thu, 19th Jul '12, 6:48pm

Quote:

BTA's life is not worth as much because he didn't contribute to my PAC.

A completely valid discriminatory factor too!

Darion · Thu, 19th Jul '12, 8:00pm

To get back to the example of that little girl in China:

It was actually explained in an article I read here, that most of the inaction form the onlookers and pedestrians was actually the fear of getting involved and somehow ending with part of the blame or a lawsuit.
It supposedly happens often, that the helping party ended up being somehow responsible after his/her/their attempt to help failed or the victim (in this chase a car accident) died anyway.

Dunno how true that all is. But makes one think.

Vorona · Fri, 20th Jul '12, 8:27am

I have held babies, but I still don't believe they are more valuable than drunk old men. Maybe they are evolutionary forces, but they don't seem to have reached me. Similarly, I seem to have no biological clock, despite being an almost-36-year-old woman. I am a teacher, though, for what it's worth.

View Poll Results: Q1) Do you divert the train? Q2) Do you call the police? Q3) Do you keep your promise?
Q1) Yes	19	82.61%
Q1) No	4	17.39%
Q2) Yes	16	69.57%
Q2) No	6	26.09%
Q3) Yes	18	78.26%
Q3) No	4	17.39%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Tue, 17th Jul '12, 6:18am	#52
Paracelsi Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: East Coast Posts: 598 Like: 5 Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,385 Level: 12 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 63.12% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 2.52% Monthly Activity 11.84% Achievements Awards	What I've been trying to point out to you all this time is that you seem to think that (hypothetically) although you are physically there and you are part of the situation whether you like it or not, you seem predisposed to compartmentalize things so from your viewpoint you are somehow not actually part of the situation (ie, "let present circumstances proceed as they should"). Now if you find the last paragraph outrageous, then that's simply how different your line of thinking is from mine. I do not think I can recreate my reasoning using your viewpoint. So... short of me actively forcing my ideals on you, I don't think I can explain it in some other way. Anyway for me your new example only introduces a compulsion to choose. That doesn't change the bottomline - that ultimately you make a choice/decision, that doing so counts as an act, and that act kills/saves one of them (or you and a dozen people). Note that I do not consider compulsion, blame, intent, regret, responsibility, or whatever in this part my observations - I try to look at these things as objectively as I can, and basically the person who makes the choice is to me simply a variable that is nevertheless a part of the big equation, whether it likes to be or not. If you can think like that, then if you can imagine yourself back into the situation then you know that whatever you decide (even if you decide to do nothing), it will (most probably) result with one of them dying anyway. So if you think they are equally important, then it no longer becomes about choosing whether to act, or not to act. Edit: mis-posted, continued
	Last edited by Paracelsi; Tue, 17th Jul '12 at 6:45am.

Tue, 17th Jul '12, 6:31am	#53
Blackthorne TA SPS Account Holder Administrator Master in his Own Mind Attack of the Tweety Zombies Champion! Balloon Bomber Champion! Barrel Jumper Champion! Belter Champion! Birdy Champion! Blast the Enemy Champion! Bubbles Champion! Color Boxes Champion! Counterstrike Champion! Emergency Champion! Fishy Champion! Galagon 2004 Champion! Grand Slam Shredder Champion! Helicopter Champion! Home Run Champion! Jackhammer Rampage Champion! Micro Machines Champion! Moon Lander Champion! Odd World Champion! Pingu Sports! Champion! Sheep Dash Champion! Snake Champion! Space Rescue Champion! Ten Pin Bowling Champion! The Viking Champion! Tiny Pinball Champion! Reaction Game Champion! Wilie Coytes Rocket Factory Champion! Storm The House Champion! aim and fire Champion! Batting Champ Champion! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Pedro, CA, USA Posts: 9,726 Blog Entries: 18 Like: 20 Liked 45 Times in 32 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,012 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 38.71% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 63.04% Monthly Activity 66.5% Achievements Awards	Sorry, but making a choice is not acting. Acting means some action was taken. So, no I don't think you are not part of the situation; though one of my points is that if you were NOT part of the situation the baby would die and not the old man. And that's what makes it different. And you essentially contradict yourself in your last paragraph. You say my new situation introduces a compulsion to choose, yet in the very next sentence you say it's no different because you ultimately make a choice in either situation. So where is the compulsion to choose coming from in my new situation if in both situations you are choosing? There isn't one; there is a compulsion to ACT in the new situation that is not present in the original one. And as I've been saying THAT's the difference.
	__________________ Who put the rapist in therapist?

Tue, 17th Jul '12, 1:58pm	#54
T2Bruno SPS Account Holder The only source of knowledge is experience Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chicago -- far west suburbs. Posts: 9,318 Like: 20 Liked 82 Times in 62 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,274 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 58.58% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 98.34% Monthly Activity 59.95% Achievements Awards	Paracelsi, there are a lot of people who do nothing in an emergency -- for whatever reason. A few months ago a two year old girl was hit by a car in China and for two hours people just walked by her while she cried. Women are raped (and killed) in public places and no one even calls the police.There are simply some people who would rather do nothing than get involved; I don't understand the mindset but I know it's real.
	__________________ “I have little patience with scientists who take a board of wood, look for its thinnest part, and drill a great number of holes where drilling is easy.”

Tue, 17th Jul '12, 3:13pm	#56
Aldeth the Foppish Idiot SPS Account Holder Mod Reviewer Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Froggster Champion! Gold Miner Champion! Straw Game Champion! Tubin Champion! Worm Catcher Champion! Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD Posts: 12,327 Like: 26 Liked 47 Times in 40 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 30,033 Level: 46 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 88.9% Daily Activity 74.2% Weekly Activity 148.76% Monthly Activity 106.35% Achievements	I have heard of that too joacqin. It's counterintuitive, but it basically says the more people there are around to help you in a time of need, the less likely you are of actually receiving help. And I agree that it stems from the mindset you describe - there's someone else here who can help better than me. But that same person if they are the only person around, is likely to jump in, because of the mindset if I don't help than no one else can.
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Tue, 17th Jul '12, 2:06pm	#55
joacqin Confused Jerk Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 6,045 Like: 8 Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 14,082 Level: 34 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 43.57% Daily Activity 74.2% Weekly Activity 32.78% Monthly Activity 53.4% Achievements Awards	What you describe is a known phenomena and now I can't remember its name but the point is that if the street had been empty and the child was crying most people would go help it, same with the assaulted woman but the more people there are around the less likely people are to help because they think "someone else will do it, someone else is better suited to do it". The presence of others gives you a way out of getting involved while if you are the only one around you are the only one who can help and most would.

Thu, 19th Jul '12, 4:50am	#59
nunsbane SPS Account Holder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: indiana Posts: 330 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,084 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 33.61% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 2.52% Monthly Activity 2.73% Achievements	Blackthorne, those who insist that all life is equally important are being dishonest with themselves and the forum. Almost all of us have held a baby and experienced it's helplessness and faultlessness first hand. There is no way to fight the biological and evolutionary forces which dictate that babies are to be preserved. Your question has not been answered because of an unwillingness to honestly compare the value. Unfortunately, many of us have also held blindly drunken men in our arms at some point...which makes my argument all the stronger.

Thu, 19th Jul '12, 5:13am	#60
Blackthorne TA SPS Account Holder Administrator Master in his Own Mind Attack of the Tweety Zombies Champion! Balloon Bomber Champion! Barrel Jumper Champion! Belter Champion! Birdy Champion! Blast the Enemy Champion! Bubbles Champion! Color Boxes Champion! Counterstrike Champion! Emergency Champion! Fishy Champion! Galagon 2004 Champion! Grand Slam Shredder Champion! Helicopter Champion! Home Run Champion! Jackhammer Rampage Champion! Micro Machines Champion! Moon Lander Champion! Odd World Champion! Pingu Sports! Champion! Sheep Dash Champion! Snake Champion! Space Rescue Champion! Ten Pin Bowling Champion! The Viking Champion! Tiny Pinball Champion! Reaction Game Champion! Wilie Coytes Rocket Factory Champion! Storm The House Champion! aim and fire Champion! Batting Champ Champion! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Pedro, CA, USA Posts: 9,726 Blog Entries: 18 Like: 20 Liked 45 Times in 32 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,012 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 38.71% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 63.04% Monthly Activity 66.5% Achievements Awards	My question was only hypothetical - like the dilemmas themselves: Given the conditions specified, what do you think? However, though I don't say you should believe one way or the other, I deny your claim above. Given no other information, a baby is not inherently better than anyone else, and could very well be much worse. Given the information presented, I do not see any difference in value between the two. Helplessness and faultlessness are not valuable attributes, and the same could be said for the drunk old man; we have no information about the circumstances that brought either of them to the tracks in the condition they are in. I don't claim all life is equally important; I'm claiming that for me the information given does not differentiate the two in any important way.
	__________________ Who put the rapist in therapist?

Thu, 19th Jul '12, 5:55pm	#61
Gaear SPS Account Holder Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,688 Like: 50 Liked 69 Times in 45 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 4,773 Level: 21 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 71.42% Daily Activity 250.88% Weekly Activity 103.38% Monthly Activity 114.89% Achievements Awards	In most places, there is no real value distinction made when it comes to human life. If you murder a 1 day old baby or a 99 year old drunken man with one day left to live, you've still committed murder, punishable by the same penalties. There are also some strange value assumptions creeping into the discussion here. e.g., who is anyone to decide that the drunken man's life is worth less than the baby's? Is it based on some abstract concept of what they each have to offer to society? If so, why is it anyone's duty to use their life to contribute to society, and why does not doing so make their lives less worthwhile? It may make their lives less worthwhile to society, but why is that a determining factor? At any rate, I think these are the very reasons why all life is considered equal by most states - judgments about value are generally made on very shaky, subjective ground, the like of which can allow me to conclude that, say, BTA's life is not worth as much because he didn't contribute to my PAC.

Thu, 19th Jul '12, 8:00pm	#63
Darion Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baldur's Gate Posts: 579 Like: 4 Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,647 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 63.36% Daily Activity 3.53% Weekly Activity 2.52% Monthly Activity 7.29% Achievements	To get back to the example of that little girl in China: It was actually explained in an article I read here, that most of the inaction form the onlookers and pedestrians was actually the fear of getting involved and somehow ending with part of the blame or a lawsuit. It supposedly happens often, that the helping party ended up being somehow responsible after his/her/their attempt to help failed or the victim (in this chase a car accident) died anyway. Dunno how true that all is. But makes one think.
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Fri, 20th Jul '12, 8:27am	#64
Vorona SPS Account Holder Shadow-Whisperer Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The Abyss Posts: 164 Blog Entries: 9 Like: 36 Liked 33 Times in 26 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 660 Level: 9 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 10.29% Daily Activity 109.54% Weekly Activity 60.51% Monthly Activity 114.32% Achievements	I have held babies, but I still don't believe they are more valuable than drunk old men. Maybe they are evolutionary forces, but they don't seem to have reached me. Similarly, I seem to have no biological clock, despite being an almost-36-year-old woman. I am a teacher, though, for what it's worth.