Olympics

[Splunge]

No, Canadian football is very similar to the NFL. Yes, there are differences in rules, but the basic concepts, skill sets, etc. are basically the same. In fact, most of the CFL players come from the US who grew up playing US-style football but couldn't make it in the NFL - the skills are very transferable (unlike your example of tennis vs. badminton)

And last I checked, Canada was not located in Europe.

You had said "I'm not aware of any other nation with even a semi-pro American football league." And the last I checked, Canada wasn't located in the US either.

[dmc]

Splunge beat me to it, but, yeah, I was pretty much going to say exactly what he did, although I was thinking of using a different smilie. So there.

[Spellbound]

Nice to see you too Aldeth!! I agree with your comment about the perceived relative importance of the gold medal vs a grand slam title or similar. As I was watching that match, the thought did cross my mind on whether Federer would let Murray win this -- given his well known love for GB and Wimbledon -- he knows how much it would mean for GB to get the gold in this particular situation. Some, I'm sure, would say Federer would never give it to him - but I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Splunge

You had said "I'm not aware of any other nation with even a semi-pro American football league." And the last I checked, Canada wasn't located in the US either.

Originally Posted by dmc

Splunge beat me to it, but, yeah, I was pretty much going to say exactly what he did, although I was thinking of using a different smilie. So there.

I was using the term "American" to distinguish it from soccer, because that's what most people on these boards think of when they read "football". I concede that I was imprecise with my wording. I should have used the phrase "American-style football".

That said, I still maintain that Canadian football is vastly different from the version played in the US. There's also arena league football. I've seen all three. While there are skill sets that transfer between the leagues, all three seem to be very different games. I'll give you two examples. Kurt Warner was considered a "decent" arena league quarterback. Warren Moon was regarded as an elite Canadian League quarterback. I'd say Warner was a bit better than decent when he came to the NFL, and while Moon had a very respectable NFL career, he was never considered among the best at his position in any given year. One got considerably better, one got considerably worse upon coming to the NFL.

Originally Posted by Spellbound

As I was watching that match, the thought did cross my mind on whether Federer would let Murray win this -- given his well known love for GB and Wimbledon -- he knows how much it would mean for GB to get the gold in this particular situation. Some, I'm sure, would say Federer would never give it to him - but I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

I don't know. While I certianly don't know Federer really well, and he does seem like a really nice guy, he's also a professional athlete. One common denominator among professional athletes - a characteristic that seems only magnified when talking about the great ones - is their Type A hyper-competitive personalities. They hate to lose at anything. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the sport they play or a game of cards. It seems like in addition to having natural ability, along with the drive and committment to perfect your craft, being hyper-competitive is practically a prerequisite for becoming a great professional athlete.

Then again, of all the examples I could list of athletes that fit this mold, they would also be American. Perhaps this phenomenon is not as prevalent among athletes of other nations. And I can't say I know Federer well enough from the interview I've seen as to whether or not he's like this or not. I can't seem to think of a single great athlete who isn't very competetive though, so I'm disinclined to think Federer deliberately threw the match. A more plausible scenario in my mind is that perhaps Murray prepared much harder for the Olympics than Federer. Murray, as a member of the host nation, may have placed far greater importance on the match than Federer.

[Splunge]

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

I still maintain that Canadian football is vastly different from the version played in the US. There's also arena league football. I've seen all three. While there are skill sets that transfer between the leagues, all three seem to be very different games. [...] Warren Moon was regarded as an elite Canadian League quarterback. [...] Moon had a very respectable NFL career, he was never considered among the best at his position in any given year.

I still disagree. While there are some differences in rules, they aren’t so vast as to make the 2 games completely different. The skill sets are essentially the same. A receiver doesn’t forget how to catch a ball when he goes from one league to another. A QB still knows how to throw, a RB still knows how to carry, an offensive lineman still knows how to block, a defensive player still knows how to tackle, and everyone still knows how to fondle their teammates’ buttocks. Yes, the differences in rules and field size means there would be a bit of a learning curve, and some players have more trouble adjusting than others, but the core of the game is still the same. And with regards to the Olympics, Canada would at least be able to field a team that knows what it was doing – it wouldn’t beat a US team, but it would probably be able to beat anyone else. Your Warren Moon example isn’t really an indication of the difference in the games, but rather shows the difference in the quality of players – as I said, most CFL players are guys who aren’t good enough to make it in the NFL; they know how to play the game, but they lack the talent needed for the NFL.

[Gaear]

Originally Posted by Splunge

and everyone still knows how to fondle their teammates’ buttocks.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

*sigh*

I don't even know if we're even arguing about the same aspects of the sports now. Yes, players in the NFL and the CFL are throwing, catching, running and kicking a football. But the styles of play are quite dissimilar. About the only counterarguement I can come up with is that you couldn't run an NFL offense in the CFL, and you couldn't run a CFL offense in the NFL. Play designs by necessity are intrinsically different.

Keep all the same players in each league, and just change the field size and rule sets, and both leagues would change drastically. The most easily recognizable example I can give you would have been seen in this year's draft. With CFL rules, the Colts wouldn't have taken Andrew Luck with the first pick. They would have grabbed RG3. Why? Because the way offenses need to be run in the CFL are fundamentally different.

If we work on the premise that the skill sets are the same, and that the NFL just has the better players than the CFL and Arena Leauges, then there's no way to explain someone like Kurt Warner. Certainly a decent Arena League quarterback, (where the rule differences make it even more dissimilar to either the NFL or CFL) would have no chance of making the grade as a starting QB in the NFL. Yet Warner went from middling starter in Arena League, to a likely Hall of Fame QB in the NFL. Are we to believe that he magically became better at throwing the football with accuracy and reading defenses in his first year as a starter in the NFL when he won the MVP?

I'm trying to find a non-football corrolary to put my argument in perspective, and this is the best one I can come up with. It's like saying Skyrim and WoW are essentially the same game because they are both single person action RPGs. That because they have many visual similarities, that they must be very much alike. I don't agree with that statement, and I don't agree that the NFL and CFL are similar leagues.

[dmc]

Here's the thing. This whole football issue came from your statement that the US would be so dominant as to make the basketball dominance look paltry in comparison, and you went on to say that you weren't aware of any other country with an American football league. I didn't disagree with your dominance claim, but did point out that Canada had a league that was, at least in my opinion, comparable to American football.

Splunge then mocked you for your Canada-not-in-Europe comment (which, to be fair, deserved mocking because your comment only said countries other than the US and did not mention Europe).

The issue of whether the CFL is comparable to the NFL is one of opinion. I think it's reasonably comparable because the skill sets it takes to play in either league are reasonably similar. I disagree with your badminton-tennis analogy. I would suggest a better analogy would be singles and doubles in tennis. The equipment is basically the same, you are hitting the same types of shots, the field of play is a bit larger in doubles, and the style of play is what makes the biggest difference. Different skill sets are rewarded in doubles vs. singles. For example, the Bryan brothers are arguably the best in the world at doubles (or close enough not to matter). Neither one would do diddly or squat in singles. But they also wouldn't embarrass themselves either. They just cannot compete at the top level.

I think your WoW-Skyrim analogy is faulty as well, in that the rules of the games are different.

[Gaear]

Seems to me they're more alike than not, and they're all called football after all. (Never mind the soccer misnomer for the moment.)

If Canada formed a basketball league where they shortened the court by ten meters, raised the net by ten centimeters, and implemented three periods instead of two halfs or four quarters, I bet most people would still think it was some form of basketball.

IMO American football and Canadian football would be like BG vs. IWD. They're both Infinity Engine games but one uses 2nd Edition rules and the other 3rd. (Also Canada would be IWD because it's snowy. )

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by dmc

Splunge then mocked you for your Canada-not-in-Europe comment (which, to be fair, deserved mocking because your comment only said countries other than the US and did not mention Europe).

Oh, I definitely deserved that - I even gave both of you a thanks for it!

The issue of whether the CFL is comparable to the NFL is one of opinion. ... I would suggest a better analogy would be singles and doubles in tennis. The equipment is basically the same, you are hitting the same types of shots, the field of play is a bit larger in doubles, and the style of play is what makes the biggest difference. Different skill sets are rewarded in doubles vs. singles.

OK, well, pick whatever analogy you like. I wasn't trying to prove an analogy point. If I were to boil my argument down to a sentence or two it would be while the different football leagues present a visually similar product, they are vastly different in how they are played (different plays, different formations, different offense and defense formations). You and Splunge see this as a minor difference, whereas I see entirely different plays, and thus conclude it's a very different game. I'll agree with Gaear that it's still "football", but it's played in a very different way.

I think your WoW-Skyrim analogy is faulty as well, in that the rules of the games are different.

I admitted up front it wasn't a great analogy. I was just trying to think of an example where two different things can look similar with a cursory inspection.

[T2Bruno]

Warren Moon was regarded as an elite Canadian League quarterback ... and while Moon had a very respectable NFL career, he was never considered among the best at his position in any given year.

I don't know what Warren Moon you're talking about but the Warren Moon I watched is a Hall of Fame quarterback with nearly 50,000 yards passing, 4 4,000+ yard seasons, another 5 3,000+ yard seasons. He was the first quarterback with consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons (leading the league in one of those). He was considered one of the best while playing against Elway, Montana, Young, Marino, and Kelly -- and four of those guys had much better support.

[Splunge]

This time it’s my turn to say that dmc said basically the same thing I would have said, even right down to the singles-vs-doubles tennis analogy.

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

If we work on the premise that the skill sets are the same, and that the NFL just has the better players than the CFL and Arena Leauges, then there's no way to explain someone like Kurt Warner. Certainly a decent Arena League quarterback, (where the rule differences make it even more dissimilar to either the NFL or CFL) would have no chance of making the grade as a starting QB in the NFL. Yet Warner went from middling starter in Arena League, to a likely Hall of Fame QB in the NFL. Are we to believe that he magically became better at throwing the football with accuracy and reading defenses in his first year as a starter in the NFL when he won the MVP?

Actually, that does more to prove my point than yours. I think Warner learned football under NFL-style rules, and while he wasn’t a star in Arena Football, he wasn’t a disaster either. And that’s my point – players used to one set of rules can transition to another, albeit with varying success; and like you point out, the difference between Arena and NFL is greater than between CFL and NFL.

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

If I were to boil my argument down to a sentence or two it would be while the different football leagues present a visually similar product, they are vastly different in how they are played (different plays, different formations, different offense and defense formations). You and Splunge see this as a minor difference, whereas I see entirely different plays, and thus conclude it's a very different game. I'll agree with Gaear that it's still "football", but it's played in a very different way.

And again, our point is that the differences are not vast enough to mean that a player who can play in one league can't play in the other, although perhaps at different levels. A lot of the differences you cite relate to strategy rather than skill, and that falls on the coaches; now I don’t mean to suggest that coaching isn’t important – in fact, I think that would be a bigger challenge than what the players face. The point, as dmc stated, is that if football using US rules were to become an Olympic sport (which is how this whole discussion began), Canada could still field a team and at least look like they knew what was going on.

[T2Bruno]

Australian football. But then they should just do rugby.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Splunge

The point, as dmc stated, is that if football using US rules were to become an Olympic sport (which is how this whole discussion began), Canada could still field a team and at least look like they knew what was going on.

OK. Fine. You win. Besides, this is far more interesting...

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

I don't know what Warren Moon you're talking about but the Warren Moon I watched is a Hall of Fame quarterback with nearly 50,000 yards passing, 4 4,000+ yard seasons, another 5 3,000+ yard seasons. He was the first quarterback with consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons (leading the league in one of those). He was considered one of the best while playing against Elway, Montana, Young, Marino, and Kelly -- and four of those guys had much better support.

That's the same one. And yes, I consider every single one of those guys you listed as better, with the exception of Jim Kelly, who I didn't think was all that. As an aside, his back to back 4,000 yard seasons were 1990 and 1991. Dan Marino had 3 consecutive years with over 4,000 yards in 1983-1985, including one that was over 5,000 yards. So I don't think Moon was the 1st.

Some relevant statistics:

Moon:

4000+ yd seasons - 4
3000+ yd seasons - 5
TD/INT ratio - 291/233
Record 102-101
Playoffs 3-7

Elway:

4000+ yd seasons - 1
3000+ yd seasons - 11
TD/INT ratio - 300/226
Record 148-82-1
Playoffs 14-7

Montana:

4000+ yd seasons - 0
3000+ yd seasons - 9
TD/INT ratio - 273/96
Record 117-47
Playoffs 16-7

Marino:

4000+ yd seasons - 6
3000+ yd seasons - 7 (including 2 where he had over 3,900 yards)
TD/INT ratio - 420/252
Record 147-93
Playoffs 10-10

Like I said, I think all these guys were better, and since they played contemporaneously with Moon, I have hard time listing him as "one of the best" when he had at least 5 comtemporaries who were better. I won't include Brett Favre because there was only two years of overlap in their careers, and it's not fair to compare an old Moon with a young Favre. Oh, one other point, all of the other guys you listed won at least one MVP, except Jim Kelly, and um... Moon.

[Harbourboy]

Hello? Olympics topic?

Overnight, New Zealand just won our 100th ever Olympic medal. Nice milestone.

Meanwhile, The tiny island nation of Grenada has taken a virtually unassailable lead in the population adjusted medal table, winning the gold in the 400m, with their population of only 100,000 people. NZ sitting in second place, and Slovenia in 3rd.

Great Britain still having an awesome Olympics. A flood of medals for the hosts.

[Splunge]

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

OK. Fine. You win.

Party pooper. I didn't even get to talk about the exclusive CFL 5 yard penalty, "unnecessay lingering", for leaving one's hand on a player's butt for more than 3 seconds.

Oh, right:

Originally Posted by Harbourboy

Hello? Olympics topic?

Overnight, New Zealand just won our 100th ever Olympic medal. Nice milestone.

Meanwhile, The tiny island nation of Grenada has taken a virtually unassailable lead in the population adjusted medal table, winning the gold in the 400m, with their population of only 100,000 people. NZ sitting in second place, and Slovenia in 3rd.

Great Britain still having an awesome Olympics. A flood of medals for the hosts.

Canada is still sucking.

[T2Bruno]

Back off topic ....

I'll take the hit for the back-to-back thing. The only problem with Moon was he was a quaterback in the "golden age of quarterbacks" -- four or five (depending on the poll you're looking at) of the top ten quarterbacks of all time played at that same time frame. If you look at the top twenty, nearly half came from that time frame. The 83-85 drafts were phenomenal for quarterbacks -- there was nothing like it before or since.

When you have to dig for QB's better than Moon with names like Montana, Elway, Marino, Farve, Young, etc. ... that puts him in pretty damned good company.

[Harbourboy]

I never realised before just how much Canada underperforms at the summer Olympics. You really do save it all up for the winter codes don't you?

[T2Bruno]

They run better in parkas.

[Splunge]

Yeah, I guess there's only so much money we're willing to invest in training, and it would be pretty embarrassing if we sucked at winter sports.

Oh well, at least we won bronze in women's soccer today.

[Harbourboy]

Canada actually has the 11th most medals at the moment - so not actually THAT bad. You'd probably like to have a few more golds though.

[Baronius]

This was Hungary's most successful Olympics in the past 20 years: only 8 from the 204 countries have a better position in the usual ("gold medal-driven") table of countries. (This is the table on the official Olympics homepage.) I'm truly satisfied and happy. Only "big" nations and powers (USA, China, Great Britain, Russia, South Korea, France, Germany, Italy) could "beat" us, so we concluded in position #9.

We couldn't get our 4th in-a-row Gold in waterpolo, however. Our team became only the 5th, every dream has an end. Croatia truly deserves its Gold medal, they played beautifully.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

One thing I heard from the closing ceremonies last night was that 85 different nations received at least one medal. At first that sounded like a lot, but then after thinking about it, since over 200 nations were in attendance, that's less than half. Most nations came to the Olympics and went home with nothing.

Although that might have more to do with opportunity than anything else. Some nations had very small Olympic delegations, and were only competing in one or two events. So if you didn't medal in that one sport you were competing in, you were out of luck.

And that got me to thinking about Michael Phelps. Even though he has won more Olympic medals than anyone, I'm not sure he's hands down the greatest Olympian ever. He's certainly the most decorated, but does that mean the best?

The reason I bring this up is because of the number of events he competed in. While he was at the games in 2000, he was still a teenager, and didn't win any medals. Starting in 2004, and continuing in 2008 and 2012, he competed in 24 different Olympic events, winning a medal in 22 of them (including 18 gold medals). Looking at it strictly from that perspective, the medal count speaks for itself.

OTOH, most Olympians, even the ones that a fortuitous enough to compete in 4 different Olympics, rarely have the opportunity to even compete in that many events. Swimming is one of the few sports where that happens. Gymnasts have the opportunity to compete in up to 6 events. Talented track and field stars may compete in 3 or 4 events. Obviously, if you play in any team sport like basketball or volleyball, you're limited to one.

So it's difficult to compare across sports. Look at Usain Bolt from Jamaica. Not only has he won gold in all six events he competed in over the last two Olympics, he set records in three of those events. If he goes to Rio like he plans in four years, and wins 3 gold medals there, is his string on 9 for 9 over the course of three Olympics less impressive than Phelps' total?

It should be pointed out that I have nothing against Phelps. I'm just saying that there are special circumstances surrounding his run. Obviously any person who can accumulate 22 medals in 24 events - over 90% of those he competed in - takes a tremendous amount of talent and dedicaiton. He is a great a Olympian. He is the most decorated Olympian ever, and he is probably the best swimmer who ever lived. I'm just not so sure he's the greatest Olympian ever. (To really play devil's advocate, look at Jesse Owens. How many more medals could he have won if the Olympics weren't cancelled due to WWII in 1940 and 1944?

[Blackthorne TA]

Isn't it more difficult to compete in more events? I think I remember reading that Lochte competed in one event and then was back in the pool for another race 20 minutes later. That can't be easy.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

That's true, but a lot of swimmers race in multiple events. It's almost like the exact opposite of most other sports where there are specialists. The only swimming specialists are the distance swimmers, where they had that insane 800-meter event. Let's put it this way... excluding that crazy 800-meter event, there are 12 swimming events for men and women. Two of those events are relays, requiring 4 people to participate. So there are 18 different spots to place people, counting the two relays as 4 each. Both the US mens and womens teams consisted of 6 swimmers. So all of them are competing in multiple races, with many of them racing twice in the same day. Lochte's experience isn't even unique - it happened with one of the US womens swimmers too. (Although she won gold in her second race.) EDIT: Swimmer was Missy Franklin [/edit]

I also am inclined to believe we saw more about the two US swimmers because we're from the US. I find it hard to believe they were the only two who were potentially hosed because of some scheduling quirks. Phelps - along with every other swimmer who was racing in the finals - had days that required him to race twice. Because the qualification and the finals were scheduled just a couple of hours apart, if you made the finals you were racing twice. If you were fortunate enough to get scheduled in one of the earlier qualification races, you were given more than a 20-minute break. Since it happens to a lot of swimmers from a lot of nations, I feel that this balances out.