Stats and Such

[Heisenberg]

I need to get a handle on all the different armor stats.


So, here we go.


1. What is the difference between Armor Bonus, Shield Bonus and Max Dex Bonus?

2. Which is most important. For example my Fighter/Barb was using Studded Leather armor and then I switched to Chain Mail. His Armor Bonus looked like it went up but my Max Dex Bonus went to 0. Which should he use?


3. What is the negative number I can't think of the name but its like minus 6 Armor saving throw bonus. It seems like the higher your Armor the lower your saving throw bonus is. (its called the armor check penality)


4. Are Shields worth using? Again, you seem to gain Shield bonus but lose Armor Check (thats what its called Armor check penality)


I know this is ALOT of information I am asking for but I just want to et an idea of how this works and what armor is best for my tanks to use.

[Paracelsi]

1) Source. Armor bonus comes from (torso) armor, shield bonus comes from shields. Both function similarly, both stack. Max Dex bonus determines how much bonus AC your armor grants you based on your dex. Say you have a dex bonus of +4 (18 dex). If your armor has a max dex bonus of 3, then for the sole purpose of determining bonus AC your armor behaves as if your character only had 16 dex (+3). Similarly if your armor has a max dex bonus of +5, then you get a +4 AC bonus because you only have 18 dex. If you are somehow able to raise your dex to 20, then you would get the full +5 bonus.

2) Depends on his dex. Studded Leather Armor has a max dex bonus of 5 but the armor bonus is only 2 iirc. This means it can give you a total of +7 AC but only if you have 20 dex. Chain Mail has an armor bonus of 5 and has a max dex bonus of 2. That's also +7 AC, but you only need 14 dex to get the full bonus.

3) Armor Check Penalty is a penalty to certain skills like Hide and Pickpocket (mostly thieving, ranger skills). The value depends on the type of armor you're using - the heavier the armor, the higher the penalty. It's based off the fact that a character wearing full plate mail should should have a lot more trouble sneaking around or picking someone's pocket. Clerics should be able to ignore this.

[Marceror]

Regarding shield bonus, I usually like to have a couple of my team members using shields. The shield bonus is in addition to your armor and dex bonuses (and natural armor & deflection bonuses) to your AC, so the net result is your character is harder to hit. There are a number of nice shields in the game, and I like to take advantage of them.

My usual party will have 2 "sword&board" characters, 1 dual wielder, 1 2-handed weapon guy, and a couple of archers types.

Once I have several good shields, I will typically devote 1 weapon configuration for all melee characters to include a weapon and shield -- for those encounters where extra defense is important.

[Heisenberg]

Thanks man, in general do you want gear with better armor like Chain Mail or Studded Leather with a max dex bonus? Which is better for tanking?


Right now I plan on this.

Rhakasha (Fighter/Barb) Two Handed Sword plus Long Bow

Nymeria (Cleric of Tempus) Dual Wield Axes

Davos (Cleric of Talos) Dual Wield Small Blades and Long Swords.

Rheagar (Cleric of Lathander) Mace and Shield or Long Sword and Shield. I was going to for sure give him a level of Paladin but I suppose I could do the same for my Cleric of Talos Either way one of them will get a level so they can use that special sword whos name escapes me for the moment.

Rasputin (Rogue1/WizardX) Crossbow and Dagger with Shield

Ariella (Sorcerer) Quaterstaff and Shield or Short Bow. Not sure about this one yet.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Thanks man, in general do you want gear with better armor like Chain Mail or Studded Leather with a max dex bonus? Which is better for tanking?

In the long term, the best armors available include a +8 AC armor that allows unlimited Dex bonus/spellcasting, and IIRC a +11 AC plate mail armor that allows no Dex bonus. That means Dex-based AC will have a higher value, if you can afford to spend the stat points.

Also consider using Spirit Armor/Ghost Armor in conjunction with high Dex.

The very highest ACs usually use monk WIS instead of armor, with Shield/Spirit Armor/Ghost Armor on top of that. That prevents you from maxing out STR though, and depending on your situation it may be overkill. In normal mode I think +25 to +30 is about the highest BAB you ever encounter, so an AC in the 30s is quite good.

-Max

[Blackthorne TA]

One thing to keep in mind when considering the DEX bonus to AC is that there are circumstances where you lose your DEX bonus. So all other things being equal a straight armor bonus will be better than a DEX bonus.

I don't recall the details of this game's implementation since it was a late adaptation to the 3E rules and is pretty old; but things like being held, flanked or flatfooted are supposed remove your DEX bonus to AC.

[Marceror]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne TA

One thing to keep in mind when considering the DEX bonus to AC is that there are circumstances where you lose your DEX bonus. So all other things being equal a straight armor bonus will be better than a DEX bonus.

I don't recall the details of this game's implementation since it was a late adaptation to the 3E rules and is pretty old; but things like being held, flanked or flatfooted are supposed remove your DEX bonus to AC.

According to DnD 3.x being flanked gives the attackers a plus 2 to attack, but does not affect your dex value to AC. That said, I'm pretty sure that the concept of flanking is not included in IWD2, nor is the concept of being flatfooted, as combat is not turn based. To be honest, I don't think that even things like being stunned remove your dex bonus to AC in IWD2. The 3.0 rules are translated very loosely in many respects.

This is one of the reasons I love Troika's ToEE. The DnD rules were implemented more faithfully than I have ever seen in another CRPG. All of the above referenced concepts are included in that game, and much, much more.

[Sir Rechet]

None of the effects listed above effect your AC in any way in IWD2, except for stun/paralysis, which effectively ignore your AC as the enemies automatically hit.

As for whichever of the types you listed is better, it's a matter of comparing sums.
Armor bonus + the maximum of the following two: whatever you can expect to get in Dex bonus or whatever the armor type allows.

While Full plate boasts a 8 in armor bonus, you can only ever get +1 from your Dex to help it, ie. +9 total. A studded leather with its 3 armor and up to +5 Dex is just a hair below at +8 total, IF you have the Dex to support it. Shields stack up the same with both, so no difference.

Finally, none of the physical armors will get you the best AC in this game - a spell buff armor (Shield being the best) combined with extreme Dex scores and Monk's Wis bonus to AC will, even though you need to drop the shield. Assuming, of course, that you have extreme scores in BOTH Dex and Wis.

[Heisenberg]

Alright so it seems there is no hard fast rule. What had me confused was say Splintmail vs Studded Leather. My characters armor stat stayed the same BUT his Reflex save bonus went down 1 point when switched from Studded Leather to Splintmail BUT again his armor bonus went up 3 points even though it did not change his AC which I don't really understand. What is the difference between your AC and the armor bonus listed under it?


Is this just telling you how your AC was added up? Also, what is your Armor Penality? It seems that the better the armor class the more it goes down. Do you want this number higher or lower? For example I believe Splintmail has a listed armor penality of -7.


I had no idea Shield was such a good spell now I will make sure my characters take it.


On another note, if you were building my Cleric of Talos would you continue to buff his STR or his Wisdom? Thanks for your time.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Studded Leather has an Armor bonus +3 and allows for a Dex bonus of UP TO +5, making a possible +8 Total AC bonus, depending on your character's Dex stat. Splint Mail has an Armor bonus of +6 and allows for zero Dex bonus, making a possible +6 Total AC bonus, regardless of your character's Dex stat. Armor bonuses and Armor Check penalties do NOT affect Saving Throws. You want the Armor Check Penalty to be lower. But it really only affects your Rogue/Ranger types as they are the ones who utilize the skills it affects. Usually your characters who wear the heavy armors that have the high penalty checks are not the characters you are using to scout, etc... so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

The Armor bonus listed in-game is just showing you your breakdown in how your Total AC is calculated.

What is your goal with the Stormlord... is he a Melee Specialist, a control caster or a damage caster?

[Marceror]

Heisenberg,

This has already been said, but it seems that perhaps you're still not clear on the mechanic. So, some basics. The armor bonus listed on the particular set of armor is the armor bonus that you receive from it, clear enough. Another source that adds to your armor class is dexterity, assuming your character has a + value to his dexterity score, you will receive this bonus also. That said, the heavier the armor, the less dex bonus it will allow your character to receive. The idea is, that heavier armors are more difficult to move around in, so even a particularly agile/dextrous individual would be hampered in their movement wearing such armors. So this is why you keep hearing us say that "it depends" when you ask which is "better." It may be that a highly dextrous character is better off in light armor than in heavy armor, because the heavy armor hampers their movement. You must do some math yourself to figure out what makes that most sense as you go through the game. A character with 20 dex, for example, is in a sense wasting their dexterity bonus if they wear splintmail, because their movement will be hampered and none of that dexterity will apply to their armor class.

That said, I'm not aware that a reflex bonus is ever impact by armor, unless some magical ability gives a bonus to saves. So I'm not sure what to make about your comment here.

Also, the heavier the armor, the greater the armor check penalty. This is a similar concept to the reduce dex bonus possible with heavy armors, but it tends to apply more to your skills. For example, that -7 ACP applies every time your character tries to hide. When your character hides, his skill ranks in hide plus his dexterity bonus are added, as is the armor check penalty (or rather, this is subtracted). So when you are wearing plate armor your abilty to hide and move silently is pretty much piss poor. The idea is that a walking tin can isn't exactly the picture of stealth. Armor check penalties apply to other skills as well, but for most of your tank types, you just don't care about this. These characters usually aren't trying to hide in the shadows and get around unnoticed. That's what your thiefs and rangers are for.

Finally, with respect to strength versus wisdom, well, you need to consider what each grants you. Strength makes you hit harder with melee weapons, and increases your accuracy. So, a melee heavy character will get a lot of benefit out of high strength. Wisdom affects what spell level you can cast (19 is required to cast 9th level spells), how hard your spells are to resist by enemies (higher WIS results in harder to resist spells) and how many spells you can cast per day (the higher your wis, the more bonus spells you receive).

So, your stormlord of talos has a lot of direct damage spells that will benefit from higher wisdom, but I know that you also want to be a melee character. Now you have to think about making choices. Think about your party as a whole. Does it need more melee power. Or would it benefit more from a stronger caster? Answer these questions and you should be able to figure out whether or not to focus on str, wis, or perhaps to split between both (generally speaking, it's better to focus one way or the other, so your character is more focused, and more effective).

So you see, so many of your questions just don't have a right or wrong answer in DnD. It's about your priorities and playstyle. We can provide guidance, but only you know what will make "your" ultimate party make up.

Good luck!

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Marceror

According to DnD 3.x being flanked gives the attackers a plus 2 to attack, but does not affect your dex value to AC. That said, I'm pretty sure that the concept of flanking is not included in IWD2, nor is the concept of being flatfooted, as combat is not turn based.

I have seen IWD2's engine give error messages to the effect that "flanking was negated by Uncanny Dodge." It may be like Improved Initiative in having no game effect, or it may not, but the game is aware of the concept of flanking.

-Max

[Blackthorne TA]

You are correct that flanking doesn't negate the Dex modifer. According to the Player's Handbook the defender loses the Dex modifier to AC if the attacker is invisible, defender is flatfooted or surprised (which is basically at the start of a battle so wouldn't be difficult to have implemented), or defender is stunned (amongst other reasons not so applicable to this game like climbing). And a helpless defender (held, sleeping, paralyzed) shouldn't be hit automatically outside of a full-action Coup de Grace; he should be treated as having a 0 Dex (-5 modifier to AC) and the attacker gets a +4 attack bonus.

Again, I don't know what was implemented, but the above seems like it COULD have been.

[Sir Rechet]

Originally Posted by spmdw45

I have seen IWD2's engine give error messages to the effect that "flanking was negated by Uncanny Dodge." It may be like Improved Initiative in having no game effect, or it may not, but the game is aware of the concept of flanking.

I'm guessing you tried to Sneak attack someone but they happened to be somewhat decently leveled Rogue (or perhaps Barbarian?), which foiled the Sneak attack's extra damage. So you just scored a normal hit.

[Heisenberg]

Not sure if my last post worked. Just wanted to thank you all, and as always double thanks to Marceror for going the extra mile to help me understand what is going on. Most of my characters have high Dex around 16 so I guess they can really use both types of armor.

Just to make sure.

Fortitude Saving Throws: This helps you complete spells without being disturbed from attacks from foes?


Reflex Saving Throws: This one has to do with doing things like trying to hide? Does it also have anything to do with an enemy chance to hit you?


Will Saving Throws: This one has to do with spells. So, for example if a spell like Hold Person will actually work on you.


How did I do?


In regards to Reflex Saving Throws I thought it went down when switching from Splint to Studded Leather but obviously I must have been mistaken.


I am going to buff Wisdow for my Stormlord and use spells such as Bulls Str and Draw Upon Holy Might to increase his STR.

[Blackthorne TA]

All saving throws have to do with your chance to avoid a negative effect, most commonly from a spell, but there are other things as well.

Fortitude saving throws are for things that affect your health like poisons, diseases and level/stat draining.

Reflex saving throws are for things you can dodge, especially area effect spells like fireball where you can avoid half the damage with a successful save.

Will saving throws are for things that affect your mind like charms or holds.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Fortitude Saving Throws: This helps you complete spells without being disturbed from attacks from foes?


Reflex Saving Throws: This one has to do with doing things like trying to hide? Does it also have anything to do with an enemy chance to hit you?
*snip*
I am going to buff Wisdow for my Stormlord and use spells such as Bulls Str and Draw Upon Holy Might to increase his STR.

Completing spells while in melee or after taking damage is based on your Concentration skill, not your Fortitude save. Higher-level spells require a higher Concentration score to cast successfully (they are more complex). Concentration is useful but not mandatory except for frontline spellcasters; it's only needed to cast spells WHILE UNDER ATTACK, and in those cases running away instead is always an option. That being said, it is the only skill my spellcasters usually invest in.

Reflex Saving Throws don't change your enemy's chance to hit you. That is AC. They are both based off of Dex, partially, but raising Reflex doesn't make you harder to hit per se. Chance to hide (turn invisible) is based on your Hide and Move Silently skills, both of which are based partially on Dex. I'm not sure exactly how they work, but I know it is much easier to Hide when you are at least a screen away from the closest enemy. Also, Hide seems to be much more important than Move Silently.

Your plan for your Stormlord sounds good.

-Max

[Marceror]

Adding to what others have said a bit:

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Fortitude Saving Throws: This helps you complete spells without being disturbed from attacks from foes?

As has already been suggested, concentration is that skill that protects against being attacked while casting a spell. You roll fortitute saves, for example, when an enemy casts the spell disintigrate or finger of death at you (or they roll the save when you cast such a spell at them).

If you're interested, this is essentially how the save works:

Spoiler!

The spell caster's difficulty level is determined by base 10 + the spell level cast + the spell casting attribute (wis/int/cha) depending on class + any spell focus feats). So let's say a sorcerer casting a 7th level spell, with 22 CHA (+6) and greater spell focus necromancy (+4) would have a spell DC of 27 (10 + 7 + 6 + 4).

When finger of death is cast at you, you have to beat that DC with your fortitude save. So whatever your fortitude save is plus your result rolling a 20 sided die is your saving throw. You need to achieve a 17 or higher in order to save against the spell, and receive reduced damage from it.

Reflex Saving Throws: This one has to do with doing things like trying to hide? Does it also have anything to do with an enemy chance to hit you?

No and no. Hiding is affected by your hide and move silently skills minus any armor check penalties you receive from your armor. Enemy chance to hit you is impacted by your armor class.

Reflex saves work a lot like fortitude saves, but are more commonly rolled to avoid the effect of a trap. Some spells require a reflex save also.

Will Saving Throws: This one has to do with spells. So, for example if a spell like Hold Person will actually work on you.

You are closer here. Some spells that affect a target's mind, like hold person, chaos, etc require a will save to shrug off the effects. Again, will saves work much like fortitude saves in terms of their mechanics.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Marceror

If you're interested, this is essentially how the save works:

Spoiler!

The spell caster's difficulty level is determined by the spell level cast + the spell casting attribute (wis/int/cha) depending on class + any spell focus feats). So let's say a sorcerer casting a 7th level spell, with 22 CHA (+6) and greater spell focus necromancy (+4) would have a spell DC of 17 (7 + 6 + 4).

When finger of death is cast at you, you have to beat that DC with your fortitude save. So whatever your fortitude save is plus your result rolling a 20 sided die is your saving throw. You need to achieve a 17 or higher in order to save against the spell, and receive reduced damage from it.

The concepts are right, but add ten to the numbers in Marceror's example because DC starts at 10 just like AC. So DC is 27 here, not 17.

-Max

[Marceror]

My DnD rustiness is showing. Thanks for the clarification.

I corrected my previous post to avoid any possible confusion.

[Blades of Vanatar]

The manual has all of your answers in it. If you don't have it, try to download the manual... replacementdocs.com might have it...

[Sir Rechet]

Blades, giving the advice of referring to the single most INACCURATE piece of turd ever produced claiming to be a manual to a game? Please!

[SlickRCBD]

I've seen worse.

Last place goes to the misprinted version of the "manual" for my copy of the Temple of Apshai Trilogy that was probably intended to be the Quick Start guide. I've since seen that there was supposed to be another book included. However, it had several errors.

Back then, there was no such thing as the World Wide Web (and I'd never heard of the Internet or Usenet), and the company denied they had a problem, and offered to sell me a new manual as if I'd lost it. I should mention that I had taken the game back and opened two other boxes at the store with the same problem.

I'm trying to recall what the other game with a far worse manual was, but I can't recall off hand. I know it was an Apple II game, and I think it had something to do with changes when it was ported to that platform, but I'm drawing a blank.

[Taluntain]

FYI, all the game manuals are also on SP.