Germany: Parents Cannot Get Boys Circumcised

[Blackthorne TA]

Just goes to show that for anything with an agenda behind it you cannot trust the scientists to be completely objective.

[T2Bruno]

Tal -- I don't know, the response from CRC seemed ... angry and disjointed. But then the AAP by their failure to include many of the argument CRC makes basically minimized the organization. There were points in the response which seemed immaterial to me and just a rant on the part of the CRC:

- The CRC is using red herrings in their response. For example, the issue of condoms is irrelevant. People don't always use condoms (even when they should). This was not a statement about the benefits of condoms.
- The CRC is cherry picking. They chose to dismiss statistics from AAP while using their own, unreference statistics. Granted, the AAP may be guilty of this as well but I doubt it.
- They are using straw man arguments. Constantly focussing on "ethics" over and over again trying to paint the AAP as unethical ... really? I've never heard the ethics of AAP questioned.
- CRC is using a guilt by association fallacy by stating conflict of interest thereby questioning the integrity of the AAP. Again ... really? The AAP is quite well known for bucking against big money in the medical and pharmaceutical industries.
- There is a constant appeal to emotion in the arguments -- another kind of fallacy.

These three items were just plain misdirection:

[T]he effect of circumcision on male distrust, anxiety, and anger toward women is unrecognized and unexamined. Do the psychological and sexual consequences of circumcision affect America's uniquely high divorce rate? We do not know.
Circumcision is traumatic and changes the brain. Does circumcision affect the prevalence of autism and ADHD which both occur about four times more often in boys than in girls? We do not know.
Sudden infant death syndrome occurs more often in boys than in girls. The rise and fall of male infant mortality correlates with the rise and fall of the circumcision rate. Is circumcision a contributing factor? We do not know.

For me, I would rather hope those against circumcision could delineate good, reasonable argument without resorting to emotional arguments or argumentative fallacies. I'm sure CRC has good points in their argument but it was difficult to find in the mess they posted as a response. To simply attack an organization (especially one with the reputation of the AAP) in response to a statement the CRC doesn't agree with was akin to anti-abortion arguments I've seen. It also doesn't help when the CRC decided to quote Ghandi as if he was on the anti-circumcision band wagon. Ghandi's quote:

"If we are to have real peace, we must begin with the children."

was about education and tolerance. The use of it here may actually be against Ghandi's original meaning.

[Taluntain]

The majority of what they wrote actually makes a lot of sense (certainly more than ANY kind of mention of circumcision as an HIV preventative measure - which anyone with half a brain can easily see leading to "circumcision prevents AIDS and STDs" arguments on the side of the poorly informed), but sure, the things you mention might as well have been left out. But given what they're going against, I'm not surprised that they have to resort to way more than the usual arguments, like, say, in Europe, where the notion of reinstating preventative circumcision on the grounds of pretty much the same non-arguments as decades before would be laughed out of every medical association. It's basically along of the lines of "FINALLY we've got something that allows us to change our position back to what we've been advocating for decades and makes the majority of our population happy! Whew, we're good for another 15 years!!!".

But like I said, anyone dead-set on believing that circumcision has benefits that make it worth it will always be able to find plenty of proponents in the US and easily dismiss everything that goes against it. Nothing's really changed in that regard. It's just one of those things that boils down to personal belief that either the US has it right and the rest of the world doesn't, or the other way around. I can understand that the first option is obviously very hard to swallow, as is (at least initially) the case with pretty much everything that goes against the established line of thought.

[joacqin]

The Americans, Jews and Muslims against the world!

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

It's just one of those things that boils down to personal belief that either the US has it right and the rest of the world doesn't, or the other way around.

I agree with this, but I think it would have been just as accurate if you put the period after the word belief. It's not like EVERYONE in the US is circumcized. In fact, a growing number of people aren't. There are several examples in my own family of kids that have been born in the last few years that weren't. It's not like they force you to get it done or do it without getting your permission. Likewise in Europe, I'm sure there are tons of people who are circumcized. As joacqin points out there are millions of Jews and Muslims living in Europe...

[Taluntain]

To clarify, I'm excluding Jews and Muslims because they do it for religious reasons first and foremost even today, everything else is secondary.

And yes, from what I've read it's about 50/50 in the US today, but if you looked at all the pop culture references you'd assume everyone was circumcised - which probably was the case up until relatively recently, since circumcision was performed on pretty much all newborns from what I've read. I assume that until AAP changed its doctrine 13 years ago (this was before they changed it back just now), all boys were circumcised unless parents specifically requested that it not be done. Maybe someone can confirm this?

[T2Bruno]

Doctors have been asking for at least twenty-five years -- they are not permitted to do a procedure without parental permission. My sister tells me all of her boys are uncircumcised (and all were born in the US) -- they range from 11 to 24.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

That's absolutely true - they can't do anything to your kid without parental permission. That said, most people around my age (I'm 38) circumcision was routine. Pretty much all boys were when I was born.