Hungary made poor Krugman mad

[Baronius]

You aren't a weapon expert, it's obvious. Those helicopters still worth $5 million each, work perfectly if maintained, and while they might not be suitable for high-end war operations, they are perfect for what we need more often, such as flood or chemical disaster (this is not common, but unfortunately, there was an example to it).

(On a side note, it's not sure we accept the offer anyway, exactly because of the high maintenance costs; our Minister of Defence has said lately that some companies -- when they heard about the American offer -- contacted the Hungarian government, e.g. the Italian company, AugustaWestland also made a very advantageous offer. Eventually, we might go both ways, because the Soviet helicopters we have are too old.)

[Ragusa]

Baronius,
indeed, T2 obviously isn't a weapon expert. How else could he disagree with you?

The UH-1N had its virgin flight in April, 1969. Just saying. The machines Hungary will get are second hand equipment that was flown a few decades by the US Marines and that will be refurbished and modernised before they go to Hungary. The basic design is forty years old. In that respect your "because the Soviet helicopters we have are too old" is frankly hilarious. The modernisation will be done in the US by US contractors working for the US Defence department, so there won't be technology transfer worth the name to Hungary.

Agusta Westland has the better offer, with newly built AB 212 or especially AB 412 or their far more modern successor to their Huey upgrades, the formidable AW139 or AW149 (an advanced design that, most certainly, has far lower maintenance costs). Very likely, Hungary simply couldn't afford it.

[Shoshino]

You aren't a weapon expert, it's obvious

Don't make sweeping comments like this, T2 knows what he's talking about, he's been there, done it and worn the T-shirt. The huey, is obsolete, to an advanced millitary, to a 2nd class millitary they fly. Britain just decommisioned its fleet of Harriers, doesn't mean they dont work, they've been maintained to the highest standard for decades, they've just been replaced by something modern, making them obsolete.

On another note, while Hungary became an official member of NATO during Orbán's first premiership during 1999, the offer to join came before that in 1997 and close NATO - Hungarian relations go back to the early 1990's. So Orbán didn't have anything to do with the relationship.

[Ragusa]

Originally Posted by Baronius

The "analysis" on those photos was just to give something to Ragusa to chew.

Yo, right. IMO it was quite 'in-character', so to speak. Actually, it was just rather silly-stupid and scratching my paws on it was a welcome if brief distraction.

/cheers

[Baronius]

Wow, now everyone became a weapon expert, even Ragusa.

Typical online arrogance. I'm the one who is accused sometimes of reiterating my arguments, while it's exactly others who do it. They must be right at any cost. For example, I already told the reasons the Huey's might be advantageous to Hungary, and noone offered any counter-arguments:

You aren't a weapon expert, it's obvious. Those helicopters still worth $5 million each, work perfectly if maintained, and while they might not be suitable for high-end war operations, they are perfect for what we need more often, such as flood or chemical disaster (this is not common, but unfortunately, there was an example to it)

Proving how old they are in the absolute sense is totally irrelevant. Always the goal is what matters, when it's about examining the price/value ratio.

Hungary is not a country with practically unlimited resources, money and area (such as the USA), so yes, it does matter how much something costs. Helicopters that are not desired anymore to the USA might be valuable (e.g. for the civilian use mentioned above) for countries that does not happen to have unlimited resources and money. So the comments that mentioned it's total "junk" and that USA would pay third-world countries to take it for free are more than arrogant; it wouldn't be hard for getting brand-new equipment if Hungary was also possessing unlimited money and resources, but we lost two world wars, lost 67% of our area, and are still considered collective war criminals in Europe (while some others, like the Slovaks, who were true allies of Hitler and paid (!!) Hitler to deport their jews, are considered fine with their Benes decrees).

[Ragusa]

Originally Posted by Baronius

Proving how old they are in the absolute sense is totally irrelevant.

No it is not irrelevant, quite the contrary, when you argue that your soviet choppers were too old - and are being replaced with something nearly as old, if not older. By saying something likle that it was you who made it relevant.

whine ... whine ... whine ... So the comments that mentioned it's total "junk" and that USA would pay third-world countries to take it for free are more than arrogant ...

No, it's the cold hard truth. Iirc the US donated the same type of chopper to Iraq.

... whine some more ... while some others, like the Slovaks, who were true allies of Hitler and paid (!!) Hitler to deport their jews, are considered fine with their Benes decrees).

You did id again! Congrats!

[Baronius]

No, it's the cold hard truth. Iirc the US donated the same type of chopper to Iraq.

Then answer a clear question: considering the below facts, how can something be junk which (if maintained) is perfectly suitable for its goals in Hungary?

Those helicopters still worth $5 million each, work perfectly if maintained, and while they might not be suitable for high-end war operations, they are perfect for what we need more often, such as flood or chemical disaster (this is not common, but unfortunately, there was an example to it)

Iraq is a different matter, and you know it (is there no better "argument" you could find?). There is much resource there (let me not mention what kind of resources), so USA gladly put much effort there because it will be returned in a multiplicatory way for sure.

[Shoshino]

I'll tell you what, we'll answer that question when the things are grounded because they stopped manufacturing parts for these obsolete machines.

[Ragusa]

Originally Posted by Shoshino

I'll tell you what, we'll answer that question when the things are grounded because they stopped manufacturing parts for these obsolete machines.

Yup.

That will be about when Italy ceases producing AB212s and AB412s because the design is just too old and when the remaining US fleet has been cannibalised for spares. The comfort in that respect is that the Huey fleet is huge, but then, Hungary will compete with the third world and the like for the spares.

Originally Posted by Baronius

Iraq is a different matter

No it isn't. It is (supposedly?) a US client state and recipient of US military aid, also under FMS and FMF. Just like Hungary. The deal is administered in exactly the same manner.

There is much resource there (let me not mention what kind of resources), so USA gladly put much effort there because it will be returned in a multiplicatory way for sure.

You did notice that the Iraqis have kicked the US out of the country by not extending the SOFA and by not granting US personnel any immunities from Iraqi law, did you? US troops will be gone by 2014. And you did notice that the Iraqi regime that the US purple-fingered into power is very friendly towards Tehran? You did notice that?

If you expect the univited US investment in Iraq to be "returned in a multiplicatory way" you're a hopeless naif and haven't been paying attention for the last decade or so. The Iraqis will take any aid they can get but will sell their oil on the world market to the best price possible, and not exclusively to the US, or at a preferential price, to, say, return the favour "in a multiplicatory way".

[T2Bruno]

Baronius: You were touting the "gift" of the Hueys proved the US was a strong supporter of the current regime. I simply pointed out the Huey was an obsolete aircraft in the eyes of the US and so the "gift" is more akin to unloading unwanted stuff at a garage sale -- it does not indicate strong support, but rather a willingness to give some aid. The Huey is reasonable capable in a non-military capacity and is still used by the DEA for drug interdiction (a use similar to what you describe).

By the way, I'm a retired military officer. Other members of my family who served include: father, mother, sister, step-father, three uncles, four cousins, nephew (one tour in Iraq and two in Afganistan), grandfather, two great uncles, great-grandfather, and great-great-grandfather (who was a surgeon in the Civil War). I have six in-laws and a couple of ex-in-laws who also served. Often family gatherings revert to war stories or discussions about military capabilities and weaponry.

[Baronius]

OK, then I accept that you know something about weapons then. And your following statement made your point more clear:

The Huey is reasonable capable in a non-military capacity and is still used by the DEA for drug interdiction (a use similar to what you describe).

And yeah, it's true that the US didn't give them as an appreciation to the current political regime (especially because American companies in Hungary also need to pay higher tax due to the current regime), but as a thanks to an ally for its assistance in Afghanistan. But at least Ragusa got again something to chew, I like that.

(Indeed, the current Hungarian regime is opening to the East instead of making stronger Western European/US relations. The most important partner is China, e.g. Huawei will establish its European logistics center in Hungary, plus there are many other things. This was just a comment to those who state that the current Hungarian regime has a bad economy politics and foreign politics. Come back and see it after 3 years -- we'll be the engine of Central Europe.)

[Ragusa]

So your idea of "giving me something to chew on" is to keep me busy calling your sillies? No! It is far more shrewd than that: You write something that is silly, but it is like that intentionally so. Cunning deception strategy! I would have never thought of that! And while casual readers may be forgiven to just consider what you "give me to chew on" as plain and transparent silliness, they misunderstand your secret master plan: To finally enter the state of transcendent silly when you eventually succeed in writing something so formidably silly that one can to "chew on" it for weeks and weeks. Everybody thinks your are just being yourself again, while secretly, you're a genius, manipulating them all, and keeping everybody in the dark about the true extent of your genius! Brilliant!

On the other hand it may indeed be somewhat overly complex an explanation for something more ordinary. As they say - or don't - stupid is as stupid writes.

As for your idea that China will save Hungary, well, it reminds me of a four year old throwing a tantrum: You don't like that? Then I get myself new friends! We don't like Orbán enough? So he is getting himself new friends. So China using Hungary as a parking lot and storage area will mark the beginning of Hungary's economic ascent within three years? Aha. Ok. Good luck with that.

While Hungary does share borders with Europe, it doesn't share any with China. Just saying. Makes me wonder how all that cargo for the European logistics centre will get to Hungary. Probably, having an ocean harbour would help greatly with that strategy. But I digress already. So puzzling! May European (funded, subsidised) road, railway and waterway networks have anything to do with that? Doesn't matter because they are being so mean!

Emerging logistics centres are a rather sure indicator for cities in economic decline. We had that in the Ruhrgebiet a lot. Logistics centres pop up after major industry has closed down, and real estate prices have dropped. Logistics always needs a lot of empty space, and high real estate prices are the reason why you don't have logistic hubs in boom towns. Of course, in a city with high unemployment logistics are being greeted as an economic opportunity. It clearly beats having no industry. To see that as the beginning of becoming the economic engine of Central Europe within three years reads to me like a stretch.

Logistics need a place that is centrally located. If that is some comfort, Hungary will always be in the heart of Europe and at the crossroads to the Balkans and, with the Danube river, to Asia. That position is geographically advantageous, irrespective of China or Orbán.

[Baronius]

While Hungary does share borders with Europe, it doesn't share any with China. Just saying. Makes me wonder how all that cargo for the European logistics centre will get to Hungary. Probably, having an ocean harbour would help greatly with that strategy.

Poland is involved too. Hungary and Poland. Poland will get more Chinese projects in absolute number, but compared to their area and power, Hungary also gets several major projects comparatively. So if you're thinking to sea, think to Poland. Yes, one of the reasons Chinese prefers Hungary as well in logistics aspects is the access to Southern regions of Europe, along with the very good infrastructure (you didn't mention the latter). If you're happy to prove that this has nothing to do with Orbán, then do so, he is not Earth Mother errr Earth Father, so yes, he could not influence our geographical position. But if this position is exploited advantageously (e.g. in Hungary-China cooperations), then it will be his merit as well as a Prime Minister. Negotiations are important too, because the devil is hiding in the details.

Poland has been an ally of Hungary. (On all levels: think to how many Poles visited the Peace March in January to assist Hungarians to express their support to the Hungarian government.) Poland and Hungary are planning to establish a Central European engine, with the leadership of Poland. Central Europe has much growing potentials. Just wait and you'll see.

(And yes, thanks to Germany for its continuous investions here. It keeps alive a huge part of the Hungarian economy. That is why one of the experts said lately: Hungary -- no matter what the Orbán government does -- cannot get into truly bad situation, because the German industry keeps it alive. And the most powerful country of Europe -- and one of the strongest economies in the world -- is Germany and it will remain so.)

[Rotku]

I can never quite follow these Hungary topics properly - maybe I just don't understand Hungary enough to be able to come to grips with the way these Hungary topics always swing.

Let's see:

Statement #1 : Some Newspaper guy lied about us - Brad Pitt was breaking the law and our anti-terrorist police definitely aren't in complete control by the Executive.

Statement #2 : The law is the law, and even if the Anti-terrorist police did tamper with the evidence, the law is still the law and Hungary is right. Oh, and did I mention this happens in the US too?

Statement #3 : Krugman (who ever he is) is a left-wing nutter who is spreading lies about Hungary to support his left-wing ideals.

Statement #4 : Obama shook Orban's hand, so USA must approve of Hungary's current political environment.

Statement #5 : USA gave Hungary a bunch of out-dated military helicopters, ergo USA supports Hungary's current political environment.

Statement #5a : Even those the helicopters were out-dated and costing the USA to keep, the still gave them to Hungary and not other countries, so the USA must support Hungary's current political environment.

Statement #6 : Something about Hitler? Not sure where this came from?

Statement #7 : Hungary and China are best buds (oh, and Poland), so therefore Hungary will soon be a European powerhouse, all thanks to Orban.

Now, I'm sitting here waiting for the link back to Brad Pitt. I'm betting it's going to have something to do with Megamind, and how the character in Megamind reflects what a terrible state the West is in, with the rise of the Left, and how we should all accept Orban as our one true leader.

[Baronius]

About 50-55% is true, but just after a quick glance. If I was looking it at longer, this percent value might increase.

[Ragusa]

What are you talking about?