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Enhancing chill touch

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by SlickRCBD, Sep 19, 2014.

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How could I best improve Chill Touch for the game?

Poll closed Dec 27, 2014.
  1. Scale the damage like Shocking Grasp

    33.3%
  2. Scale the THAC0 penalty

    33.3%
  3. Both

    33.3%
  1. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    Something got me thinking about another "useless" spell in the game, specifically "chill touch", and thinking how to make it useful without being overpowered.

    I was wondering the opinion on two possible changes, which to implement, or both.
    First, the description of Chill Touch for easy reference:
    Here is the idea.
    One, scale the damage of chill touch to rival shocking grasp. Make it 1d8+1/lvl instead of only 1d8.
    This would make it more powerful than shocking grasp in that it imposes the extra -2 THAC0 penalty (shouldn't that be +2 since lowering THAC0 is a bonus, raising it is a penalty?)

    Two, scale the THAC0 penalty. Make it -2 at first level, and increase it by 1 for each additional level until you get to -20 at level 19? Somebody hit by a 20th level mage's chill touch would need a negative THAC0 to hit on anything short of a natural 20.

    Three do both.

    This is to be balanced for BG2, and possibly BG1 and IWD1 as well. It has to compete with Chromatic Orb, Blindness, and in BG2 Spook with its -6 to save fear effect. It is still a touch spell, with the same save vs spells as blindness.
    At the very least, I should make the THAC0 penalty -5.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  2. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Shocking Grasp is nice for a little burst damage assuming the caster has decent THAC0 (actual damage is 1d8+1 per level iirc), and Ghoul Touch (the other touch spell) is basically a save or die spell that works on a lot of living monsters.

    I think to make Chill Touch useful the THAC0 penalty should scale by +1 every 3 to 4 levels (total 7 to 8 THAC0 penalty), or the caster should be able to make an unlimited number of attacks (limited by attacks per round) that apply a stacking 2 THAC0 penalty, with the spell duration reduced to like 2 rounds (the THAC0 penalty should last a bit longer though).
    I think a 22 THAC0 penalty is extreme, considering you'll probably be only using this spell on the occasional dangerous warrior-type monster (bears? giant trolls? ogres? fire giants? maybe dangerous humanoids like Mencar?). A 22 THAC0 penalty would cripple a lot of things even in ToB, which is really something only at least a level 5+ spell should be able to do.
    I don't see this spell being useful in any other situation since all the really dangerous stuff will be immune to touch attacks anyway.
     
  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Given how hard it is for a low level mage to actually score on an attack with a touch spell in this game (at least in my experience), you would be better off giving a THAC0 benefit to the mage than tinkering with the effect of the spell on the target. I never use it because I never hit with it.
     
  4. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    Having slept on it, I agree the first one going down to -19 is too extreme, but how about if instead I scale it so that a fighter of equal level to the mage that gets hit with it would have a THAC0 equal to a mage, all other bonuses being equal (same STR, same weapon, single pip in weapon proficiency, etc)?
    As was pointed out, it's only a first level spell, but everyone knows how hard a time higher level mages have hitting targets.
    Obviously the fighter would still have an edge since he probably has bonuses from weapon proficiencies and exceptional strength, not to mention superior armor and HP, so it wouldn't let an equal level mage go toe-to-toe with a fighter.
    To that, what about also giving a temporary -1 penalty to STR & CON in addition to the THAC0 reduction for the duration of the spell? Robs fighters of some bonuses, doesn't have much effect on other classes that have average strength and constitution.
    This can be combined with the scaling THAC0 reduction, as even with the STR & CON addition (or would that be subtraction?) I still don't see the base spell being that useful.

    About the only time I can see it being useful is a new player who just picked up Monteron and Xar running into the ogre before revising Xar's spellbook, where hitting it with -2 THAC0 and -1 to STR & CON might help turn that certain defeat into a victory, if Xar can connect and survive, and that is in BG1.
    ---------- Added 0 hours, 5 minutes and 51 seconds later... ----------

    Oh, the idea of a THAC0 benefit could work. Perhaps a +1/lvl to THAC0 until it detonates? That's about on par with a fighter or Tenser's Transformation.

    Alternately or concurrently, as was suggested, give the mage as many chances to hit as the duration of the spell allows. I'll have to look into how to do this, copying another spell like warding whip or phantom blade.
     
  5. The Magpie

    The Magpie Balance, in all things Veteran

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    The problem with this spell is that mechanically, it's arse. Pure mages shouldn't be on the front line. Fighter/mages are better off with buffs than piddling direct damage spells like this.

    If this spell added cold damage to all attacks, it's be of some use. But the Infinity Engine can't handle that, so your only real option is to allow for bonuses to apply to multiple attacks per round for the spell's duration, or to alter the spell completely. Maybe a save vs. a "freezing" effect that paralyses the target for a short duration? Ghoul touch does this already, though, so it still feels a bit redundant.
     
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    I was thinking that by increasing the THAC0 penalty, it would change from a damage dealing spell to a disabler. Hit the enemy's tank with chill touch, and he ceases to be a threat and you can concentrate on other baddies. Not as good as ghoul touch since it still has a 5% chance to hit you and can use anything that doesn't require an attack roll against you, but you can't expect a 1st level spell to be as good as a second like ghoul touch. Especially when blindness has to compete against it.
    Blindness often takes a ranged attacker out of the fight until you try to melee them. Spook causes fear.
    Why not make chill touch be able to compete with blindness, charm person, chromatic orb, and spook?

    I was thinking if I went the damage route for chill touch, I should also modify Shocking Grasp so that the target needs to also save vs. Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic or be stunned for 1 round.

    For that matter, I've already scaled Larloch's Minor Drain to scale every other level like magic missile for a maximum of 5d4 damage. Magic Missile (when fixed) does 1d4+1 damage, but Larloch's heals you at the same time. On the other hand, it's worse than useless against undead.
     
  7. Ineth

    Ineth Instigator Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Demivrgvs' Spell Revisions mod (the stated goal of which is "making all of the existing spells viable choices" so "Magic Missile won't be the only first-level arcane spell you'll want to memorize") has this version of Chill Touch:

    TBH it doesn't sound more powerful either. Or did the original version lack the to-hit bonus and enchantment for the touch-attack?
    I did play through SoA with the Spell Revisions mod, but don't remember using that spell, so I can't comment on it's effective usefulness.
     
  8. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    All touch attacks were supposed to have a +4 bonus to hit iirc, on account of armor not offering any protection against it. I remember reading in the BG:EE forums that either this wasn't implemented for Chill Touch or it was bugged and Chill Touch applied a penalty to THAC0 instead.

    I can't find that post atm though.
     
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