Cookie Problems, Anyone?

Taluntain · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 12:39am

Did anyone start having problems with cookies on the boards in the last few days? I.e. your password and username not being remembered and entered automatically? This has happened to me a couple of times before but it stayed OK for a few months after I've reset the cookies. Now it barely stays ok for two days before all info is lost again and I have to log in manually...

I need to find out the cause for this, so post here if you have this same problem as well.

TheBlackRose · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 12:45am

I have this problem as well, Tal.

joacqin · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:58am

Word, same here. I thought it was my new puter and some settings I hadnt changed properly but perhaps not...

Llandon · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 2:32am

I have this problem as well....but only on the laptop I use at the office. For some reason I can't post at all from that account. This computer (home) logs on automaticially still.

Sir Belisarius · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:20am

My pc is fine! But I do have a problem with chocolate chip...I can't seem to say no to them!!!

Thorin · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:45am

I have not had problem with posting

Xenecor · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 5:42am

Along with the occasional password problem, I've been experiencing a problem (I suppose you can call it that) when using the "back" option to return to the Forums Listing page. Usually when I press "back" it will still show the forums with "new" posts since I last visited. Recently it has been clearing all forums immediately.

Blackthorne TA · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 6:28am

The popups cause the page to be reloaded, so if the popups pop up, don't hit the "back" button to get back to the main forums page. Instead, click on the Board's O'Magick link near the top of the page. This will cause the cookie update to be bypassed until you hit "back" back to the original main forums page (You'll see a BypassCookie=true at the end of the URL)

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:45am

I have that problem too,Tal

Viking · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:08am

Servo, perhaps you have other problems too judging by the strange message to go with your new avatar?

Only joking.

On topic - I only experience problems when I try to post a new topic. When I reply to an existing thread at least windows remember if nothing else.

Mollusken · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:21pm

I just had to store the cookie settings again, and then it worked. Have only done it once.

Taluntain · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:33pm

Well I presume the pop-ups must be the reason for the messing up of board cookies as well. The pop-ups place a cookie to set the time limit between spawns of new ones. I can't really think of anything else that could cause it... Aside from that and the banner ads I haven't really changed anything that could have this side effect.

Though still, the pop-ups have been here for much longer and this problem only started appearing for me in the last few days. BTA, do you have any ideas what could be causing this?

Gnolyn Lochbreaker · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:43pm

Seems to be remembering my password/ logon alright. But there are two other things I have noticed. I'm getting pop-ups a *lot* more often then before. Whether I've left the site, or just left it idle on screen, once SP becomes active again on my system after about 20 minutes, the pop-ups re-load.

And similar to Xenecor, the topic refresh seems to be a little 'off'. Even when clicking the 'Boards o' Magic' link at the top right, all topics are shown as unchanged since my last visit. Mind you, it could just be my system

[This message has been edited by Gnolyn Lochbreaker (edited June 06, 2002).]

Sapiryl · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 4:22pm

No problem here.

Blackthorne TA · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 5:39pm

Gnolyn - I'm not sure I understand your problem, but if you see "BypassCookie=true" at the end of the URL, then the new/old status on the main forums page will not change because (I assume) the cookie that records when your last visit was will not be updated.

Tal - No, I don't know what it might be, I'm not really an expert in these kinds of things, but I'm good at understanding computers and how they work

I use IE's ability to remember form entry/password info, so I don't use the cookie for that.

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited June 06, 2002).]

Kitrax · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 6:41pm

I only have that problem when I clean my hard drive (i.e: delete all cookies, and all temp. internet files). Then I go back to SP, type in my username/password, reconfigure my prefrences, and BOOM...everything is back to normal.

Gnolyn Lochbreaker · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:19pm

BTA - I wouldn't call it a 'problem'. It's just something I've noticed lately, that's all. The URL does end with 'ByPassCookie=True', but strangely enough the status does change. Specifically, any of the forums that were showing as 'not read' when the site first launches (ie, red icon instead of grey) will all show as 'read' (grey icon instead of red) when I return to the main page, whether I've gone to that forum or not. As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but it might be related to the problems Tal was asking about.

Lazy Bonzo · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:22pm

I have this problem as well i have to manually type in my username/password the first time i post/reply on the boards. It usually remembers it after that, but not always

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:33pm

I've also got this problem.Whenever I log on my password and name have not been set auto maticaly.This is getting realy annoying.Can it be fixed.Or do I have to enter everything manually for as long as I live.(it makes me get bored.)

Tal.I just realised that this started hapening to me when the Avatars became gems.I logged on and read the post.Then when I logged on again this started hapening.I am not saying that it definatly is the gemification of the avatars but you should just check it out.

Hope you solve the problem soon!!!

Paddy!!!

[This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 8:36pm

I had that problem for more then a month now.

[This message has been edited by Silverblade (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 9:15pm

I dont have problems at home (Win 98 SE2, IE 6.0.2600...) but at school on SunOS, Netscape 2.x (but i dont think he supports it) i must log myself every time.

[This message has been edited by total (edited June 06, 2002).]

Taluntain · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 9:53pm

It's no the gems, that much I can tell you right now, hehe.

But from the posts I've read I didn't really get the impression that many would start seeing this same problem at the same time I did, so I must conclude that there was no "universal" change that would make most people go without the automatic login. And since I can't afford to remove the pop-ups, I guess I'll just have to experiment with cookies and see if I can set them to last... Oh well.

And btw Gnolyn, you should only get two pop-ups every so many hours (I don't remember what I set the timer to, either 3 or 6 hours).

Gnolyn Lochbreaker · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 10:09pm

Thanks Tal. Since I'm getting the pop-ups much more frequently than that (such as between my last post on this thread and now), it's most likely my security settings. Probably not accepting cookies for all sites, or something along those lines.

Taluntain · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:00pm

I'm sorry about that. If it gets too annoying, just get some pop-up killer... Though of course that will prevent all pop-ups, ads or not.

Errol · Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:21pm

I don't mind the pop-ups, as long as they help keep the site online i let them load.
But on topic here, i've had this 'problem' ever since i started loggin on 0h-so-long-ago.
It asks me if i want to remember this Windows Passord, i say yes, and in never does...*sigh*

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Thu, 6th Jun '02, 12:39am	#1
Taluntain SPS Account Holder Founder Resident Alpha and Omega Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cori Celesti Posts: 20,796 Blog Entries: 13 Like: 149 Liked 120 Times in 78 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 53,133 Level: 58 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 48.61% Daily Activity 230.07% Weekly Activity 133.88% Monthly Activity 42.14% Achievements Awards	Did anyone start having problems with cookies on the boards in the last few days? I.e. your password and username not being remembered and entered automatically? This has happened to me a couple of times before but it stayed OK for a few months after I've reset the cookies. Now it barely stays ok for two days before all info is lost again and I have to log in manually... I need to find out the cause for this, so post here if you have this same problem as well.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 12:45am	#2
TheBlackRose Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: United States Posts: 545 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,384 Level: 12 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 62.86% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I have this problem as well, Tal.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:58am	#3
joacqin Confused Jerk Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Helsingborg, Sweden Posts: 6,065 Like: 7 Liked 12 Times in 11 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 14,075 Level: 34 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 42.9% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 21.5% Monthly Activity 29.64% Achievements Awards	Word, same here. I thought it was my new puter and some settings I hadnt changed properly but perhaps not...

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 2:32am	#4
Llandon Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: mb,sc,usa Posts: 519 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,658 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 67.34% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I have this problem as well....but only on the laptop I use at the office. For some reason I can't post at all from that account. This computer (home) logs on automaticially still.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:20am	#5
Sir Belisarius SPS Account Holder Distinguished Member Treasurer Viconia's Boy Toy Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: If there is a bright center of the universe, I'm in the city it's farthest from! Posts: 4,257 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 10,508 Level: 30 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 45.39% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	My pc is fine! But I do have a problem with chocolate chip...I can't seem to say no to them!!!

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:45am	#6
Thorin Gems: 9/31 Latest gem: Iol Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 303 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,037 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 12.05% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I have not had problem with posting

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 5:42am	#7
Xenecor Gems: 10/31 Latest gem: Zircon Join Date: May 2001 Location: The Hurricane Center of the World Posts: 361 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,163 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 69.41% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	Along with the occasional password problem, I've been experiencing a problem (I suppose you can call it that) when using the "back" option to return to the Forums Listing page. Usually when I press "back" it will still show the forums with "new" posts since I last visited. Recently it has been clearing all forums immediately.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 6:28am	#8
Blackthorne TA SPS Account Holder Administrator Master in his Own Mind Attack of the Tweety Zombies Champion! Balloon Bomber Champion! Barrel Jumper Champion! Belter Champion! Birdy Champion! Blast the Enemy Champion! Bubbles Champion! Color Boxes Champion! Counterstrike Champion! Emergency Champion! Fishy Champion! Galagon 2004 Champion! Grand Slam Shredder Champion! Helicopter Champion! Home Run Champion! Jackhammer Rampage Champion! Micro Machines Champion! Moon Lander Champion! Odd World Champion! Pingu Sports! Champion! Sheep Dash Champion! Snake Champion! Space Rescue Champion! Ten Pin Bowling Champion! The Viking Champion! Tiny Pinball Champion! Reaction Game Champion! Wilie Coytes Rocket Factory Champion! Storm The House Champion! aim and fire Champion! Batting Champ Champion! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Pedro, CA, USA Posts: 9,721 Blog Entries: 18 Like: 19 Liked 44 Times in 32 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,000 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 37.75% Daily Activity 93.39% Weekly Activity 93.16% Monthly Activity 33.69% Achievements Awards	The popups cause the page to be reloaded, so if the popups pop up, don't hit the "back" button to get back to the main forums page. Instead, click on the Board's O'Magick link near the top of the page. This will cause the cookie update to be bypassed until you hit "back" back to the original main forums page (You'll see a BypassCookie=true at the end of the URL) [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:45am	#9
sorvo Guest Posts: n/a vBActivity - Stats XP: 0 Level: 1 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 0% Daily Activity 0% Weekly Activity 0% Monthly Activity 0%	I have that problem too,Tal

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:08am	#10
Viking Gems: 19/31 Latest gem: Aquamarine Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: A place not for the likes of you. Posts: 1,102 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,890 Level: 17 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 45.05% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	Servo, perhaps you have other problems too judging by the strange message to go with your new avatar? Only joking. On topic - I only experience problems when I try to post a new topic. When I reply to an existing thread at least windows remember if nothing else.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:21pm	#11
Mollusken SPS Account Holder Decayed Feature Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Norway Posts: 1,952 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 5,365 Level: 22 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 84.47% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I just had to store the cookie settings again, and then it worked. Have only done it once.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 1:33pm	#12
Taluntain SPS Account Holder Founder Resident Alpha and Omega Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cori Celesti Posts: 20,796 Blog Entries: 13 Like: 149 Liked 120 Times in 78 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 53,133 Level: 58 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 48.61% Daily Activity 230.07% Weekly Activity 133.88% Monthly Activity 42.14% Achievements Awards	Well I presume the pop-ups must be the reason for the messing up of board cookies as well. The pop-ups place a cookie to set the time limit between spawns of new ones. I can't really think of anything else that could cause it... Aside from that and the banner ads I haven't really changed anything that could have this side effect. Though still, the pop-ups have been here for much longer and this problem only started appearing for me in the last few days. BTA, do you have any ideas what could be causing this?

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 3:43pm	#13
Gnolyn Lochbreaker Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 554 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,683 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 76.72% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	Seems to be remembering my password/ logon alright. But there are two other things I have noticed. I'm getting pop-ups a lot more often then before. Whether I've left the site, or just left it idle on screen, once SP becomes active again on my system after about 20 minutes, the pop-ups re-load. And similar to Xenecor, the topic refresh seems to be a little 'off'. Even when clicking the 'Boards o' Magic' link at the top right, all topics are shown as unchanged since my last visit. Mind you, it could just be my system [This message has been edited by Gnolyn Lochbreaker (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 4:22pm	#14
Sapiryl Gems: 7/31 Latest gem: Tchazar Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Oneonta, New York, USA Posts: 218 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,731 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 94.35% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	No problem here.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 5:39pm	#15
Blackthorne TA SPS Account Holder Administrator Master in his Own Mind Attack of the Tweety Zombies Champion! Balloon Bomber Champion! Barrel Jumper Champion! Belter Champion! Birdy Champion! Blast the Enemy Champion! Bubbles Champion! Color Boxes Champion! Counterstrike Champion! Emergency Champion! Fishy Champion! Galagon 2004 Champion! Grand Slam Shredder Champion! Helicopter Champion! Home Run Champion! Jackhammer Rampage Champion! Micro Machines Champion! Moon Lander Champion! Odd World Champion! Pingu Sports! Champion! Sheep Dash Champion! Snake Champion! Space Rescue Champion! Ten Pin Bowling Champion! The Viking Champion! Tiny Pinball Champion! Reaction Game Champion! Wilie Coytes Rocket Factory Champion! Storm The House Champion! aim and fire Champion! Batting Champ Champion! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Pedro, CA, USA Posts: 9,721 Blog Entries: 18 Like: 19 Liked 44 Times in 32 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,000 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 37.75% Daily Activity 93.39% Weekly Activity 93.16% Monthly Activity 33.69% Achievements Awards	Gnolyn - I'm not sure I understand your problem, but if you see "BypassCookie=true" at the end of the URL, then the new/old status on the main forums page will not change because (I assume) the cookie that records when your last visit was will not be updated. Tal - No, I don't know what it might be, I'm not really an expert in these kinds of things, but I'm good at understanding computers and how they work I use IE's ability to remember form entry/password info, so I don't use the cookie for that. [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 6:41pm	#16
Kitrax Pantaloons are supposed to go where!?!? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 7,916 Blog Entries: 11 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 19,724 Level: 39 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 57.69% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I only have that problem when I clean my hard drive (i.e: delete all cookies, and all temp. internet files). Then I go back to SP, type in my username/password, reconfigure my prefrences, and BOOM...everything is back to normal.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:19pm	#17
Gnolyn Lochbreaker Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 554 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,683 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 76.72% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	BTA - I wouldn't call it a 'problem'. It's just something I've noticed lately, that's all. The URL does end with 'ByPassCookie=True', but strangely enough the status does change. Specifically, any of the forums that were showing as 'not read' when the site first launches (ie, red icon instead of grey) will all show as 'read' (grey icon instead of red) when I return to the main page, whether I've gone to that forum or not. As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but it might be related to the problems Tal was asking about.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:22pm	#18
Lazy Bonzo Oh no! The TV's done a runner! Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My Own Personal Universe :) Posts: 1,861 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 4,598 Level: 21 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 36.43% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I have this problem as well i have to manually type in my username/password the first time i post/reply on the boards. It usually remembers it after that, but not always

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 7:33pm	#19
Padine the Paladin Guest Posts: n/a vBActivity - Stats XP: 0 Level: 1 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 0% Daily Activity 0% Weekly Activity 0% Monthly Activity 0%	I've also got this problem.Whenever I log on my password and name have not been set auto maticaly.This is getting realy annoying.Can it be fixed.Or do I have to enter everything manually for as long as I live.(it makes me get bored.) Tal.I just realised that this started hapening to me when the Avatars became gems.I logged on and read the post.Then when I logged on again this started hapening.I am not saying that it definatly is the gemification of the avatars but you should just check it out. Hope you solve the problem soon!!! Paddy!!! [This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).] [This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).] [This message has been edited by Padine the Paladin (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 8:36pm	#20
Silverblade Guest Posts: n/a vBActivity - Stats XP: 0 Level: 1 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 0% Daily Activity 0% Weekly Activity 0% Monthly Activity 0%	I had that problem for more then a month now. [This message has been edited by Silverblade (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 9:15pm	#21
total Guest Posts: n/a vBActivity - Stats XP: 0 Level: 1 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 0% Daily Activity 0% Weekly Activity 0% Monthly Activity 0%	I dont have problems at home (Win 98 SE2, IE 6.0.2600...) but at school on SunOS, Netscape 2.x (but i dont think he supports it) i must log myself every time. [This message has been edited by total (edited June 06, 2002).]

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 9:53pm	#22
Taluntain SPS Account Holder Founder Resident Alpha and Omega Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cori Celesti Posts: 20,796 Blog Entries: 13 Like: 149 Liked 120 Times in 78 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 53,133 Level: 58 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 48.61% Daily Activity 230.07% Weekly Activity 133.88% Monthly Activity 42.14% Achievements Awards	It's no the gems, that much I can tell you right now, hehe. But from the posts I've read I didn't really get the impression that many would start seeing this same problem at the same time I did, so I must conclude that there was no "universal" change that would make most people go without the automatic login. And since I can't afford to remove the pop-ups, I guess I'll just have to experiment with cookies and see if I can set them to last... Oh well. And btw Gnolyn, you should only get two pop-ups every so many hours (I don't remember what I set the timer to, either 3 or 6 hours).

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 10:09pm	#23
Gnolyn Lochbreaker Gems: 13/31 Latest gem: Ziose Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 554 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,683 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 76.72% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	Thanks Tal. Since I'm getting the pop-ups much more frequently than that (such as between my last post on this thread and now), it's most likely my security settings. Probably not accepting cookies for all sites, or something along those lines.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:00pm	#24
Taluntain SPS Account Holder Founder Resident Alpha and Omega Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cori Celesti Posts: 20,796 Blog Entries: 13 Like: 149 Liked 120 Times in 78 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 53,133 Level: 58 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 48.61% Daily Activity 230.07% Weekly Activity 133.88% Monthly Activity 42.14% Achievements Awards	I'm sorry about that. If it gets too annoying, just get some pop-up killer... Though of course that will prevent all pop-ups, ads or not.

Thu, 6th Jun '02, 11:21pm	#25
Errol Merchandise Artist I think therefore I am... I think Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,547 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 3,568 Level: 19 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 13.6% Daily Activity 2.28% Weekly Activity 1.95% Monthly Activity 1.32% Achievements	I don't mind the pop-ups, as long as they help keep the site online i let them load. But on topic here, i've had this 'problem' ever since i started loggin on 0h-so-long-ago. It asks me if i want to remember this Windows Passord, i say yes, and in never does...sigh